OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

I'm ignoring Ilyana (T) vs. Leo. Sorry.

I don't like Oliver down. I know he's always worse than Bastian because Bastian has 4-5, but he and Bastian are no different in Endgame. Heal, maybe spam some long-range tome. There really isn't much of a difference between them.

Who's to say Bastian shouldn't go down some as well (though I don't think Bastian deserves Bottom)? Anyway, along with 4-5, Bastian has better durability (mostly because he isn't doubled as easily), more Magic, and stronger tomes to use. I don't see why Bastian should be the reason you think Oliver can stay where he is. It should be the opposite; Bastian should be part of why Oliver needs to drop.

[Anouleth]

I know, I know, but my point is he's even not a positive in his joining chapter. Even Fiona can scrape together some positive utility over the course of the game... but Oliver...

I'd be happy with Oliver at the bottom of the list, right above Lyre.

By which I mean Lyre should be at the absolute bottom.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Anouleth

[nflchamp]

Who's to say Bastian shouldn't go down some as well (though I don't think Bastian deserves Bottom)? Anyway, along with 4-5, Bastian has better durability (mostly because he isn't doubled as easily), more Magic, and stronger tomes to use. I don't see why Bastian should be the reason you think Oliver can stay where he is. It should be the opposite; Bastian should be part of why Oliver needs to drop.

Bastian has better stats, etc., but does nothing different. So why is Oliver the one who is penalized?

[Florete]

Bastian has better stats, etc., but does nothing different. So why is Oliver the one who is penalized?

If Bastian were the only healer available for Endgame he'd be higher as well. And Bastian is not the only reason Oliver needs to drop, nor am I saying Bastian shouldn't drop. Go back to this:

Meh, I still support Oliver's next-to-useless ass in Bottom. I mean, if Mist and Rhys can possibly be argued lower on the basis that healing isn't too useful in part 3, what the hell does Oliver give us? He's terrible on offense and defense and Endgame is all he has, but he's like a 4th string healer or something, and that's assuming you don't raise anyone that can heal that doesn't come at tier 3 (Mist, Rhys, Laura, Soren, Calill, etc.). Anyone you've already got (Elincia, Micaiah, Bastian) is better than him and anyone you raise will likely end up better as well.

Maybe not worse than the current Bottoms (though I would definitely support Astrid > him), but I'd hardly give him so much credit as to put him a tier higher.

[nflchamp]

If Bastian were the only healer available for Endgame he'd be higher as well.

I'm sorry, but no, he wouldn't. Oliver's commonly knocked because Bastian is basically the same thing he is in Endgame, an RNG-proof healer. However Bastian is never considered worse because Oliver exists. Bastian's position wouldn't change if Oliver magically didn't exist. Oliver's would if Bastian didn't.

In all honesty, that italic stuff doesn't matter. We're only now starting to think healing in part 3 isn't worth as much. We've know nearly forever that extra healing in Endgame isn't worth much.

[Florete]

I'm sorry, but no, he wouldn't.

Are you honestly telling me that you think Bastian would still be as low as he is even if he was the only available healer for Endgame?

Oliver's commonly knocked because Bastian is basically the same thing he is in Endgame, an RNG-proof healer.

Not exactly. Oliver's commonly knocked for being possibly your worst choice of healer for Endgame. Bastian just happens to be one of the superior choices.

However Bastian is never considered worse because Oliver exists. Bastian's position wouldn't change if Oliver magically didn't exist. Oliver's would if Bastian didn't.

Agreed, but only because Oliver is superfluous as it is. Although it's unlikely, in certain circumstances I could see Bastian as viable for Endgame use. The same can't be said for Oliver, or if it can, the situation would be even more extreme.

Also don't forget 4-5. It might not be much but that's part of what puts him higher on the list in the first place, which obviously has nothing to do with Oliver.

In all honesty, that italic stuff doesn't matter. We're only now starting to think healing in part 3 isn't worth as much. We've know nearly forever that extra healing in Endgame isn't worth much.

But it does matter, at least for the argument to bring Oliver and/or Bastian down the list. It's not so much about what happens in part 3 as it is the actual usefulness of Bastian or Oliver compared to others you can choose instead.

[Anouleth]

Agreed, but only because Oliver is superfluous as it is. Although it's unlikely, in certain circumstances I could see Bastian as viable for Endgame use. The same can't be said for Oliver, or if it can, the situation would be even more extreme.

Renning, Bastian, Stefan, Elincia, Caineghis, Naesala, Nailah, Tibarn, Skrimir, and Volke. They all join in Part 4, they're all RNG-proof except Elincia (who would need to be majorly RNG-screwed to end up worse than Oliver for Endgame), they're all better than Oliver. Unless Skrimir or Bastian or Volke are killed (very, very unlikely) Oliver has to bump someone worse out so he can be fielded. And even then, Pelleas gives Oliver a run for his money.

[nflchamp]

Are you honestly telling me that you think Bastian would still be as low as he is even if he was the only available healer for Endgame?

If Bastian was the only available extra healer (aka Micaiah still existed), then, well, yes.

Not exactly. Oliver's commonly knocked for being possibly your worst choice of healer for Endgame. Bastian just happens to be one of the superior choices.

But Bastian doesn't actually have any important statistically leads in Endgame. He's not superior to Oliver at all.

Agreed, but only because Oliver is superfluous as it is. Although it's unlikely, in certain circumstances I could see Bastian as viable for Endgame use. The same can't be said for Oliver, or if it can, the situation would be even more extreme.

I'll disagree vehemently. Bastian and Oliver will do the exact same thing if they go to Endgame: heal, maybe siege-tome. Any situation Bastian is in can be done by Oliver. Which is the point I'm trying to make. If the two are no different, why is Oliver getting the raw end of the deal?

Also don't forget 4-5. It might not be much but that's part of what puts him higher on the list in the first place, which obviously has nothing to do with Oliver.

I know he's always worse than Bastian because Bastian has 4-5

To the next point.

But it does matter, at least for the argument to bring Oliver and/or Bastian down the list. It's not so much about what happens in part 3 as it is the actual usefulness of Bastian or Oliver compared to others you can choose instead.

I'm not seeing it. Their performance hasn't changed (other than some competition may be gone because they're not worth it anymore) and our opinion on Endgame healing hasn't changed, why does the fact part 3 healing is less useful mean Bastian and/or Oliver are worth less now?

[Florete]

But Bastian doesn't actually have any important statistically leads in Endgame. He's not superior to Oliver at all.

Yes, he is. He has 4 more Speed, which allows him to avoid being doubled by some enemies that would kill Oliver. He also has more Magic and more powerful tomes for doing more damage. I said all this before. How does this lead to Bastian not being superior?

I'll disagree vehemently. Bastian and Oliver will do the exact same thing if they go to Endgame: heal, maybe siege-tome. Any situation Bastian is in can be done by Oliver. Which is the point I'm trying to make. If the two are no different, why is Oliver getting the raw end of the deal?

Aside from what I pointed out above, I also did say that Bastian could possibly drop. The only reason Oliver is "getting the raw end of the deal" is because he's simply worse as a playable unit. Honestly, if you're simply opposed to Oliver being in Bottom I don't think you're going about this the right way.

I'm not seeing it. Their performance hasn't changed (other than some competition may be gone because they're not worth it anymore) and our opinion on Endgame healing hasn't changed, why does the fact part 3 healing is less useful mean Bastian and/or Oliver are worth less now?

It's not so much about what happens in part 3 as it is the actual usefulness of Bastian or Oliver compared to others you can choose instead.

I've always wanted Oliver in Bottom, I just didn't argue it before because of smash and Vykan (and after they left I didn't really think of it until now). Ignore the part about Rhys and Mist in part 3 if you need to. My argument for Oliver dropping still stands.

[RNG Princess]

Bastian could use a different tome : and you could raise Bastian a little bit with paragon before endgame, unlike Oliver not that it would matter too much but it counts.

Well Oliver does have Staff A > Staff B Bastian

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

So there's discussion about Oliver dropping to Bottom, below Meg, Fiona, and Astrid? Color me surprised. I never, ever thought that they'd end up above a non-Lyre unit.

[Narga_Rocks]

So there's discussion about Oliver dropping to Bottom, below Meg, Fiona, and Astrid? Color me surprised. I never, ever thought that they'd end up above a non-Lyre unit.

Fiona > Oliver is not likely to happen unless we want to make a lot more changes. Ditto Astrid > Oliver. Not sure how much either are even doing so they only go above if we give Oliver a big fat 0 for never being worth anything ever.

Anyway, Kyza could conceivably go > Oliver if someone who doesn't seem biased would tell me there opinion of Kyza's worth in 3-4.

[Peachy]

We've know nearly forever that extra healing in Endgame isn't worth much.

Then what exactly is Oliver worth? He has no playtime in 4-4, we get him when the map is nearly over. Seeing as extra healing isn't worth much in 4-E, he isn't getting deployed in 4-E. Guess what? He's done nothing for the two maps he is available in. At least Fiona can Canto+Rescue, Astrid can do some chip and Canto-Rescue, and Lyre can...shove Mist. The "unholy" trio has done something in their maps, well maybe not Lyre.

Fiona>Oliver, or at least, Astrid>Oliver

I'm going to bring up Astrid vs Pelleas. I think its fair to say that in 2-3, 3-9, 3-11, and 3-E, she has been able to get to get to at least Lv.12 (3 levels per map, easy with Paragon). I'll say she got to Lv.10 by the time she gets Blossom, and gets Blossom for two Levels. Blossom info was gotten from this thread My link

Astrid Lv.12 "B" Makalov

38.92  	17.38  	10.46  	21  	20.38  	22.6  	13.48  	19.52

Silver Bow - 32Atk, 20AS, 169.6 Hit

Max Forge Silver - 37Atk, 20AS, 194.6 Hit

Pelleas Lv.12

33  	13  	24  	20  	21  	14  	14  	19

Carreau - 34Atk, 21AS, 144 Hit

Ferrine - 33Atk, 14AS, 134 Hit

Verrine - 36Atk, 21AS, 139 Hit

*Biorhythm was not calculated into hit

My biggest gripe with Pelleas is that he joins during combat, not during combat preparations. Because he is starting behind our troops, he constantly has to keep up. Sage movement (6) doesn't help him much. It will be very hard for him to get levels in this map because we can't give him kills without slowing down.

Astrid wins in durability (+5.92HP) while Pelleas wins in Speed (+1). However, nothing in 4-2 has 17 speed or less. The speed saves him from being doubled from...3 Snipers. Astrid wins. 9 move and being able to be part of combat preperations pushes her ahead.

In 4-5, Astrid gets effective damage vs Hawks and Ravens, while Pelleas gets effective damage vs Dragons. There are 6 dragons, and 11 Hawks/Ravens. While the dragons are harder to take down, the Hawks and Ravens can fly over our team to get access to Reyson and any other swishies we have behind. By killing the Hawks, Astrid protects Reyson. Astrid wins here to.

Neither are going to endgame, so I won't bother debating them.

Sure Pelleas can heal, but how is he getting his 8 levels so he can heal?

[Anouleth]

Oliver is never worth anything ever... Unless Elincia has a heart attack or something, he's not deployable in Endgame.

Any thoughts on Ilyana (t) v Leonardo?

@Astrid v Pelleas

Why does Astrid get to keep Paragon for 3-11 and 3-E? And surely if she's got Blossom as well, she won't get 3 levels per chapter? Astrid is slowed down by the thickets as well. 4-5 doesn't exist, neither are going to do much. Especially if as you say, neither are going to Endgame.

Pelleas should win by virtue of better mt against Resistance and not needing to be spoonfed kills in earlier chapters. Plus we can throw a spare crown on him for healing.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Anouleth

[nflchamp]

Yes, he is. He has 4 more Speed, which allows him to avoid being doubled by some enemies that would kill Oliver. He also has more Magic and more powerful tomes for doing more damage. I said all this before. How does this lead to Bastian not being superior?

I don't know why either would be getting attacked. And do the Magic and more powerful tomes actually matter? Is Bastian's extra chip/range really important at all?

I don't care that Bastian has better stats, he's not doing anything Oliver isn't. For that matter, I hardly care that Soren/Ilyana/Calill have better stats if all they're doing is healing.

Aside from what I pointed out above, I also did say that Bastian could possibly drop. The only reason Oliver is "getting the raw end of the deal" is because he's simply worse as a playable unit. Honestly, if you're simply opposed to Oliver being in Bottom I don't think you're going about this the right way.

I wouldn't mind as much if Bastian dropped too, I suppose. It doesn't change the fact that the value of Endgame healing hasn't changed and there's no reason for Oliver/Bastian to drop. Unless units below them have been seen to improve, there is no reason to drop Oliver/Bastian.

It's not so much about what happens in part 3 as it is the actual usefulness of Bastian or Oliver compared to others you can choose instead.

I've always wanted Oliver in Bottom, I just didn't argue it before because of smash and Vykan (and after they left I didn't really think of it until now). Ignore the part about Rhys and Mist in part 3 if you need to. My argument for Oliver dropping still stands.

Which is fine and all, but the italicized stuff is still unimportant. It was telling us stuff we already knew along with part 3 stuff.

And I still don't buy your argument for Oliver dropping.

[RNG Princess]

You can give him a left over crown though, his problem in my eyes is the two turn wait my units are already far ahead :( (not everyone plays the same though ;)) and I don't remember what level staff he gets when he promotes.

Also Makalov and Astrid can kill one enemy together in 2-3, unless they are data transfered.

I support Ilyana(T) > Leonardo. Ilyana doubling is helping weaken enemy for someone else to get the kill. :D Especially in 1-5.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

There actually is a portion where Batian's tome selection counts for something.

Thunder Effectiveness vs Dragons in 4-E-3

[dondon151]

I agree on Ilyana(T) > Leonardo. I'd almost consider Ilyana > Leonardo were it not for the fact that Leo gets 3 free chapters and can man a ballista on 3-13 to snipe down a hawk.

[Shadow Mir]

Fiona > Oliver is not likely to happen unless we want to make a lot more changes. Ditto Astrid > Oliver. Not sure how much either are even doing so they only go above if we give Oliver a big fat 0 for never being worth anything ever.

Anyway, Kyza could conceivably go > Oliver if someone who doesn't seem biased would tell me there opinion of Kyza's worth in 3-4.

Okay. But still... I highly doubt that anyone could've argued Oliver below those three without getting laughed out of the topic.

[Dat Nick]

Oliver dropping does kind of make sense, if this list is following optimal deployment, just because existing and being disposable is better than never getting deployed and sucking. Personally I despise the premise of optimal deployment as all it really accomplishes is just make the characters that aren't the top 10 or whatever look worse than they actually are, but w/e.

[Anouleth]

Oliver dropping does kind of make sense, if this list is following optimal deployment, just because existing and being disposable is better than never getting deployed and sucking. Personally I despise the premise of optimal deployment as all it really accomplishes is just make the characters that aren't the top 10 or whatever look worse than they actually are, but w/e.

It's not even a case of 'he's not optimal deployment he sucks'. Even if you build your team entirely out of shitty Part 4 fillers, he is still not worth touching. Are we supposed to reward Oliver for being the 12th best RNG-proof filler unit?

[Narga_Rocks]

Oliver dropping does kind of make sense, if this list is following optimal deployment, just because existing and being disposable is better than never getting deployed and sucking. Personally I despise the premise of optimal deployment as all it really accomplishes is just make the characters that aren't the top 10 or whatever look worse than they actually are, but w/e.

Well, doing that in this game isn't as bad as with others. I mean, Oliver gets screwed because you get enough units in part 4 alone that he's superfluous. The others you can make a case for entering 4-E. I mean, not a great case, but still a case.

[Dat Nick]

It's not even a case of 'he's not optimal deployment he sucks'.

Um, has to be. I know Oliver can't do anything but heal, I never said he wasn't bottom tier (he obviously is)but he does that perfectly fine. If you really want to leave optimal deployment out of the equation, then I can very easily argue that one physic staff use>>>>>>the bottom 4, combined.

[RNG Princess]

Um, has to be. I know Oliver can't do anything but heal, I never said he wasn't bottom tier (he obviously is)but he does that perfectly fine. If you really want to leave optimal deployment out of the equation, then I can very easily argue that one physic staff use>>>>>>the bottom 4, combined.

Oliver being in endgame is the only way for him to contribute to anything, and the only thing he can contribute decently is healing. Surely Micaiah will need a little backup from time to time in the healing department, since she can't always do everything by herself, but there is Sanaki/Sothe to shove her around in any case she's too far from the heron.

Then there are better options for other fighters and second healers (Elincia and Mist with better move and fighting) (Bastian is debatable but he's free for a chapter to train in).

Astrid/Meg/Fiona are crappy units but they contribute to small things like rescuing/shoving/chipping/ledges/etc, and they do this free without taking a spot away from another character. Its like comparing Nailah and Volug, obviously she has better stats and is better at fighting but she's not around for long and he is, which makes him useful for longer and makes him > her. So their contribution is more than he could promise to bring without affecting anything else.

Well thats how I see it.

Even screwed/untrained Elincia is rivaling Oliver she has decent base magic, better speed, equal defence, and A staff, all she would need is paragon to be slapped on her. Canto moves her back to safety and like someone else said she can equip wyrmslayer and bless it then trade it to Ike for better results.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

I definitely agree with Oliver in Bottom. There is no situation -- none -- where using him does not slow you down somehow.

And for what it's worth, again, Bastian is a pretty important part of the 4-5 clear. His bases are perfect for siege tome sniping, which is what has to happen in order for Tibarn (or whoever) to get in on Izuka. Sages are not really efficient to train, so in all likelihood he's going to be your best available option.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Interceptor