OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Under the idea that the most effective way to use Oliver is to never use him at all, Astrid beats that shit just by potshotting enemies in 3-9, which is something that actually can potentially save turns (or make things less RNG-reliant). We don't have to use her after that.

Oliver is terrible even in his joining chapter.

You know? It's sad. In any other Fire Emblem Oliver would be pretty good in that situation. Think about it, he's a mage with a self healing weapon in a room filled with Generals. In any other game he'd be tearing things up. You'd want him to talk to Rafiel, self-recruit, and then have the Generals suicide into him on enemy phase. Well, maybe they wouldn't die, but they would probably be 3HKOd and doubled. They'd be left near death for anyone else to take them out and Oliver would walk out of this at full hp.

In this game? He's utterly worthless here.

[dondon151]

Diminishing Sothe's earlygame chapters because he's more necessary still seems kind of backwards to me. 1-2 to 1-4 > 3-6 and 3-13 IMO.

It's not just 3-6 and 3-13; Volug is curbstomping Sothe in part 4 and has significant advantages over Sothe in shared part 1 chapters due to 2 extra move, despite not having 2 range.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's not just 3-6 and 3-13; Volug is curbstomping Sothe in part 4 and has significant advantages over Sothe in shared part 1 chapters due to 2 extra move, despite not having 2 range.

I vote sothe for 1-8, though. Nailah can handle the west on her own and those mages near the boss fall to sothe's 7 move ignoring terrain with forged iron knives. I can't imagine how sothe could be losing 1-8 to Volug. It's almost a curbstomp in the other direction. Even 1-6 sothe has his knives for things like javelin pegs.

[Zkirsche]

LYRE.

No, even Lyre can deal potshot damage, even if it's meagre, and shove people around. It's not like deployment slots are exactly fought over in part 3 and even early part 4. Oliver should be doing nothing, otherwise he's a net negative.

[nflchamp]

Volug is declining by 1-8 (or rather Wildheart is finally catching up to him), so it's not odd you feel that way Narga. 1-6 goes both ways, Sothe can deal with ranged threats better in 1-6-1, Volug is better at saving Fiona in 1-6-2.

@Kirsche: Nothing Lyre does is worth a deployment slot. She has no free chapters.

[-Cynthia-]

Volug has also stopped doubling most enemies by 1-E. Sothe's running into issues here too, but a map with chests and lots of mages so it's easier to excuse his combat problems.

Frankly neither of them help to clear 1-7 all that much since Tormod and co. handle a lot. 1-7 is the easiest map in Part 1 anyway. Also, here's where Volug starts to not double things, making his offense suspect.

Sothe could definitely be seen as better for 1-5 as well, due to the large amount of Fire mages and other units with Javelins/Hand Axes. Narga mentioned Sothe counters Pegs better on 1-6(1).

The only place I clearly see Volug beating Sothe is 1-6(2).

In addition to Sothe fighting at 1-2 range, don't forget all the items Sothe picks up for us over the course of Part 1, Master Seals etc.

Meh, is having an extra healer for 4-E really so useless? I mean it's not the best thing ever, but it's not that much worse than having some mediocre combat unit like Renning or Stefan IMO. Status happens freuently, dragons have high Hit and Mt, Micky might not have A staves etc.

Edited June 4, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

Volug is declining by 1-8 (or rather Wildheart is finally catching up to him), so it's not odd you feel that way Narga. 1-6 goes both ways, Sothe can deal with ranged threats better in 1-6-1, Volug is better at saving Fiona in 1-6-2.

Yeah, I meant to type 1-6-1 instead of 1-6, but like I often do I neglected to finish that part. The pegs are only in 1-6-1, after all.

sothe is one of the best for the boss of 1-6-2, though, given it has 1-2 range.

As for 1-5, I vote volug. Kill what is in his way on turn 1 and he rushes up to ORKO the mage. Then he runs over to block enemies from getting at Jill and vulneraries. And now the chapter is done since Jill/Zihark/Taur will all live. There's a mage out there that doesn't move and the lance using enemies can't beat Volug. Or something like that. I forget what all I do. I suppose if you are trying to kill everything then sothe has his uses here, but you don't actually have to do that. The master seal and the item that blocks a tile aren't all that important here.

[dondon151]

Volug has also stopped doubling most enemies by 1-E. Sothe's running into issues here too, but a map with chests and lots of mages so it's easier to excuse his combat problems.

Volug is also tied for highest move on the map and has the best movement type for crossing gaps in addition to superior durability. About half of the treasure on the map is going to be looted and then stolen on the kill.

I full well understand the importance of 2 range, but when the clear objective is not rout (i.e. every map but 1-6-1), 2 move and superior durability reign supreme.

Edited June 4, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

Volug is also tied for highest move on the map and has the best movement type for crossing gaps in addition to superior durability. About half of the treasure on the map is going to be looted and then stolen on the kill.

I full well understand the importance of 2 range, but when the clear objective is not rout (i.e. every map but 1-6-2), 2 move and superior durability reign supreme.

I'm confused. 1-6-2 is kill boss.

1-6-1 and 1-8 are rout.

sothe wins 1-6-1 and 1-8. Volug wins 1-5 and 1-6-2. Nobody wins 1-7 (hello LEA). 1-E is probably Volug, but he doesn't double and I don't remember what all 30 mt 2HKOs. He's also 3 or 4 HKOd I think. I'm tempted to say nobody wins 1-E, but I could be wrong.

Then of course Volug wins the rest of the game.

[Anouleth]

I'd be willing to give Sothe the lead just for stealing so much crap.

[Zkirsche]

Volug is declining by 1-8 (or rather Wildheart is finally catching up to him), so it's not odd you feel that way Narga. 1-6 goes both ways, Sothe can deal with ranged threats better in 1-6-1, Volug is better at saving Fiona in 1-6-2.

@Kirsche: Nothing Lyre does is worth a deployment slot. She has no free chapters.

but there are enougth spaces, especially in part 4, for it to not matter.

[Narga_Rocks]

but there are enougth spaces, especially in part 4, for it to not matter.

Not really. If we want her shoving stuff, she can't do it a few turns due to grassing. Better to use units that don't have to grass. That makes her a negative if you deploy her in part 3 because, well, someone else can do it better. Then part 4 you only have around, what, 35 to 40 slots for over 60 characters. Are you honestly telling me you think untrained Lyre is top 40? sure, some of the db's part 1 scrubs may be worse, but that's about it.

And the thing about part 3 is ignoring the possibility you are trying to raise that many people.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Sothe is really only crap in 3-12 (in part 3). At least he's mainly responsible for Beastfoe and Beastkiller reckage against the laguz, not to mention FOW sight, IIRC.

[Interceptor]

In addition to Sothe fighting at 1-2 range, don't forget all the items Sothe picks up for us over the course of Part 1, Master Seals etc.

And this is why ranking thieving utility is for madmen. This can mean anything from nothing to everything.

Meh, is having an extra healer for 4-E really so useless? I mean it's not the best thing ever, but it's not that much worse than having some mediocre combat unit like Renning or Stefan IMO. Status happens freuently, dragons have high Hit and Mt, Micky might not have A staves etc.

At worst, Oliver denies us a combatant that would shave turns. At best, he does nothing worth mentioning. The chance of Micaiah not having staff rank is infinitely close to 0%, considering the Arms Scroll Bonanza right before you head in.

Beyond that, honestly, Endgame takes less than 10 turns for the whole thing. The most difficult leg -- offensively, anyway -- is 4-E-1, since you have to Rout a bunch of hardasses. After that, it's a cake walk. Endgame-2 gets 1-turned by Parity Ike with a Hammer, E-3 is also a one-turn assuming that you actually trained people and didn't make the mistake of using Raisin as your heron (now the dragons fight exactly nobody, except the ones that start in your way), E-4 is E-3 redux, and E-5 is going to take two turns unless your army is awful.

At least someone like Stefan can battle the Generals adequately in E-1, and works as a corner aura stomper in E-5.

[dondon151]

I'm confused. 1-6-2 is kill boss.

1-6-1 and 1-8 are rout.

sothe wins 1-6-1 and 1-8. Volug wins 1-5 and 1-6-2. Nobody wins 1-7 (hello LEA). 1-E is probably Volug, but he doesn't double and I don't remember what all 30 mt 2HKOs. He's also 3 or 4 HKOd I think. I'm tempted to say nobody wins 1-E, but I could be wrong.

Then of course Volug wins the rest of the game.

My finger slipped on 1-6-1. I wouldn't consider Sothe outright "winning" 1-8 because Volug has to deal with the left section of the map with Nailah and Rafiel, and both are necessary for the rout.

[Interceptor]

Am I the only one here that has Nailah solo the west side by herself, and Volug takes a vacation to the east in order to make the push to the boss easier? Captain Abs also ignores the reeds, you know. Nailah eventually needs help since she can only kill one 2-range enemy per turn, but there's time for that.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I think Volug actually slows Nailah down if he goes left.

EDIT: There's only 1-2 rangers that direction, and Volug can't ORKO the bandits while the mages hit him hard in return.

Edited June 4, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Zkirsche]

Not really. If we want her shoving stuff, she can't do it a few turns due to grassing. Better to use units that don't have to grass. That makes her a negative if you deploy her in part 3 because, well, someone else can do it better. Then part 4 you only have around, what, 35 to 40 slots for over 60 characters. Are you honestly telling me you think untrained Lyre is top 40? sure, some of the db's part 1 scrubs may be worse, but that's about it.

And the thing about part 3 is ignoring the possibility you are trying to raise that many people.

Raise that many people? Take 3-10, for example. That has 14 deployment slots. So even if we use Ike, Titania, Gatrie, Shinon, Haar, Mia, Nephenee, Boyd, Brom, Reyson, Oscar, Soren and Mist we have room for Lyre. And even that's probably too many combat units we'd actually be seriosuly training. Lyre could just even be bait to help protect Soren or something.

Anyway, at worst, they're equal for doing absolutely nothing.

[grandjackal]

Concerning the left side, I think it helps to have him around for the 2 range units, since there comes a point where two show up, so that would cost a turn to not have him there if we're routing. However, that's probably made up by the fact that I don't think Volug's ORKOing any bandits...

It does help him build Strike rank though. Helping with the push would only cut into this as he would have less overall enemy exposure to the less populated right side.

[Fenrir]

i dont get how anyone can say volug is better than sothe for 1-E because with all the chests and mages its a stage great for sothe, and volug is completely outdone by nailah. no one else is a theif so its harder to get chests without sothe, 1-5 and 1-6-2 go to volug but 1-6-1 and the fact that sothe comes in sooner make me think sothe has better part one. volug does have better part 3 but hes still not the best on your team if you trained nolan or jill even aran because he doesnt have to deal with laguz gauge. so basically i dont think sothe belongs any higher on tier list but volug belongs at high not top.

and with oliver, i kill him most of the time, there is another nosferatu and i dont use it much anyways. and hes a nice good bit of xp for someone, why throw that away? you could sell the tome but IMO xo is worth more than money at that stage in the game, but thats all totaly opionon based at least oliver part.

Edited June 4, 2010 by King Soren

[Anouleth]

Raise that many people? Take 3-10, for example. That has 14 deployment slots. So even if we use Ike, Titania, Gatrie, Shinon, Haar, Mia, Nephenee, Boyd, Brom, Reyson, Oscar, Soren and Mist we have room for Lyre. And even that's probably too many combat units we'd actually be seriosuly training. Lyre could just even be bait to help protect Soren or something.

Anyway, at worst, they're equal for doing absolutely nothing.

Ranulf? Kyza? Mordecai? Lethe? They're all better than Lyre at this stage for no effort. Even Ilyana is arguably better - 13/5 Ilyana has 26ATK with a max mt Fire forge, while Lyre has 22ATK, and she's targeting RES and not taking counters and doesn't need to use Olivi Grass every fifteen seconds.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Anouleth

[Interceptor]

Raise that many people? Take 3-10, for example. That has 14 deployment slots. So even if we use Ike, Titania, Gatrie, Shinon, Haar, Mia, Nephenee, Boyd, Brom, Reyson, Oscar, Soren and Mist we have room for Lyre. And even that's probably too many combat units we'd actually be seriosuly training. Lyre could just even be bait to help protect Soren or something.

Anyway, at worst, they're equal for doing absolutely nothing.

I guess that this argument makes sense, although you conveniently picked a chapter that has high deployment (chapter 3-8 only has 10 freebies, plus Ike and Ranulf). There should usually be some slot free, Lyre can take Wildheart, and now you have a 9MV unit that can actually shove a few people. Technically she's not too bad at that, though Kyza gets more people than she does.

[RNG Princess]

There is absolutely no reason to move Astrid out of Bottom.

You have to consider she's probably a lot easier to train than Meg and Fiona and her deployment doesn't always hurt you like Lyre or Oliver do.

She has better hit than Fiona or Meg and being a mounted unit doesn't hurt her in her availability. IIrc Makalov and Devdan can't kill one enemy by themselves so maybe Astrid can help out that way; and she gains the most experience as well.

She only has player phase but being weak and having canto and bows means she's hast to always be hiding behind someone or somewhere. Same for Fiona/Meg In order to survive long they have to hide behind someone and they have horrible hit with wind edges/javelins (maybe a forged javelin?).

However I am not sure if that would qualify her to move out of bottom tier to low tier, but I think it would be good to consider it.

[Zkirsche]

I guess that this argument makes sense, although you conveniently picked a chapter that has high deployment (chapter 3-8 only has 10 freebies, plus Ike and Ranulf). There should usually be some slot free, Lyre can take Wildheart, and now you have a 9MV unit that can actually shove a few people. Technically she's not too bad at that, though Kyza gets more people than she does.

eh, 1 chapter is all it takes.

It's all mostly superfluous, really. Most of the people you'd want to shove (soren, Mist + rofl) all have low wt anyway.

Ranulf? Kyza? Mordecai? Lethe? They're all better than Lyre at this stage for no effort. Even Ilyana is arguably better - 13/5 Ilyana has 26ATK with a max mt Fire forge, while Lyre has 22ATK, and she's targeting RES and not taking counters and doesn't need to use Olivi Grass every fifteen seconds.

Except most of the units I mentioned will probably not be used as serious combat units anyway. Even if they were, I'm almost certain that what those 4 do (except maybe Ranulf + Mordy) is mostly superfluous.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Kirsche

[_____]

You have to consider she's probably a lot easier to train than Meg and Fiona and her deployment doesn't always hurt you like Lyre or Oliver do.

She has better hit than Fiona or Meg and being a mounted unit doesn't hurt her in her availability. IIrc Makalov and Devdan can't kill one enemy by themselves so maybe Astrid can help out that way; and she gains the most experience as well.

She only has player phase but being weak and having canto and bows means she's hast to always be hiding behind someone or somewhere. Same for Fiona/Meg In order to survive long they have to hide behind someone and they have horrible hit with wind edges/javelins (maybe a forged javelin?).

However I am not sure if that would qualify her to move out of bottom tier to low tier, but I think it would be good to consider it.

You have just given examples as to why Astrid is better than Meg and Fiona, two units she is already above. That has nothing to do with moving out of Bottom.