OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

I'm sorry, WHY does Nolan need Adept in the first place for part 3, when Beastfoe+Tarvos is pretty much all he will ever need? Nolan doesn't care because as long as he's got Beastfoe, he doesn't give a damn.

Oh sweet, he avoided a counter. Like he's ever in danger of dying. He's not Zihark for christ sakes, he knows how to take a shot or 3.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm sorry, WHY does Nolan need Adept in the first place for part 3, when Beastfoe+Tarvos is pretty much all he will ever need? Nolan doesn't care because as long as he's got Beastfoe, he doesn't give a damn.

Oh sweet, he avoided a counter. Like he's ever in danger of dying. He's not Zihark for christ sakes, he knows how to take a shot or 3.

...

I never gave Adept to Nolan. That was the whole point. Zihark was the one taking Adept from the GMs. Nolan got to 18% with just Vantage and Beastfoe due to the ability to OHKO. What were you reading?

I was saying that Nolan, without robbing the GMs of Adept, is doing better than Zihark who is robbing the GMs of Adept.

[grandjackal]

Err...Sorry, bit of a brainglitch. Misread what you were saying.

[Fenrir]

I much prefer the scent of Aran le'depressione. That's Aran's Depression for those of you who don't speak the Frenchese.

Yes, I'm aware that's nowhere near correct French

lolz

Well, he can get up to 42 mt and 17 str, right? 59 atk is enough to 2HKO, so he'd need either Adept or Crit to kick in, and he'd need vantage or it doesn't matter.

(Vantage is 10 capacity, shove is 5, Adept is either 15 or free. Beastfoe is 15. He needs Adept to be free for it to work. Which means you can't move it around at all in part 1, either.)

Let's give him 25 speed since I am feeling generous today. I'll throw in 24 skill as well.

12 + 10 + 15 = 37 crit.

25% adept

25% vantage

6 cev enemies, again to be nice

30% crit

Compare to, say, 18 speed Nolan with Vantage and Beastfoe (and not stealing Adept from other units that could use it, like Neph in the GM's part 3, or Janaff/Ulki)

25% chance of vantage

If he does, then either 25% adept or 30% crit will save him. That's 47.5% chance

Put them together, you get a whole 11.875% chance of him managing to save himself. And that's less than Nolan's 18% by how much? And let me ask this: Is Nolan hoarding Adept during part 1 and denying the GMs access during part 3 in order to accomplish his rate of success? Which, by the way, is higher?

well, it's not stealing, technically general motors are stealing his adept since he has it innate... but anyhow if your using zihark, and i am, why take it off?

I can't tell if you did or not, but did you factor in a Max crit forge? this at least helps his chances.

Why is he being compared to friggin Nolan??? no one ever said he could beat Nolan, of course nolan useing beastfoe is better, but zihark CAN make somewhat decent use of beastfoe, better than like Leo and all other DB scrubs.

The whole point of saying this was that Zihark doesn't jusy lay down and die, I never even said he was better than nolan, the original question, just that they're two very different characters.

[nflchamp]

Zihark with Beastfoe is just going to get Zihark killed.

[RNG Princess]

Zihark with Beastfoe is just going to get Zihark killed.

Just like Sothe with beastkiller, I'd rather not take the chances.

I usually left adept on Zihark since he makes good use of it, but this time I let Ilyana take it to GM and it really helps them more than DB.

DB needs beastfoe and paragon the most.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

well, it's not stealing, technically general motors are stealing his adept since he has it innate... but anyhow if your using zihark, and i am, why take it off?

Well, he's not really stealing it, but we can give Adept to anyone, and by the looks of things, Zihark isn't doing all that much with it. I'd much rather improve Nephenee's offense than give Zihark a 6% less chance to die.

The fact that Zihark has it innate is irrelevant, and he doesn't get to use it any more than Leonardo gets to hog his Dracoshield or Tauroneo gets to keep his Resolve. This is Socialist FE, where there are no personal possessions, the player is God and can redistribute as he pleases.

Why is he being compared to friggin Nolan??? no one ever said he could beat Nolan, of course nolan useing beastfoe is better, but zihark CAN make somewhat decent use of beastfoe, better than like Leo and all other DB scrubs.

If Nolan makes better use of Beastfoe, then guess what - Nolan gets to use Beastfoe, end of story. Zihark doesn't get credit for being the second best, any more than Edward can take credit for being a better Dracoshield canditate than Leonardo. Beating the scrubs is not an achievement.

I much prefer the scent of Aran le'depressione. That's Aran's Depression for those of you who don't speak the Frenchese.

Yes, I'm aware that's nowhere near correct French

Aran always struck me as apathetic rather than depressed, and I imagine his scent to be as bland and flavourless as his personality.

[Fenrir]

If Nolan makes better use of Beastfoe, then guess what - Nolan gets to use Beastfoe, end of story. Zihark doesn't get credit for being the second best, any more than Edward can take credit for being a better Dracoshield canditate than Leonardo. Beating the scrubs is not an achievement.

BREAKING NEWS: nolan is not used in every PT

[RNG Princess]

BTW I think Titania's overall usefulness is better than Sothe's part 1, he's bound to have durability issues and the only issues affecting her are speed issues which can be fixed by her entitled speedwing, and she has the commodity to use a master crown to bump her up where as Sothe has nothing much going for him but paragon (and I'd rather have it on Jill, Zihark, or Micaiah).

I'd say Vika's 1-7 and 1-8 > Danved's 2-3 and 3-9 since he's not helping too much on 3-9 due to his mobility.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Ether]

The high up GM's vs. Sothe has been done to death.I know I've tried to put Mia over him twice,and if she were to go up,Titania would have an easier time of it as well.

But it seems that his Part 1 is enough that in the end,it always seems to be a wasted effort

[Anouleth]

BREAKING NEWS: nolan is not used in every PT

Even if we decide not to grace ourselves with Nolan's manly musk, we are very likely to be smelling wet dog. Volug might stink, but he smells like roses compared to Zihark's aroma - with 64ATK (S Strike + Beastfoe), he can easily OHKO Cats. In fact, if he has the Energy Drop as well, he would OHKO a few of the weakest Tigers, and a single Strength proc and a +atk support lets him get the others. He also has better durability - with 49HP/18DEF, Cats will 4HKO him and Tigers 3HKO. And Volug has better speed and is around for longer, so he will also have better avoid since he'll have a more developed support. Things only get funnier when we introduce the Dracoshield - with 49HP/22DEF, Cats are now 6HKOing, and he only needs 3HP procs with a 95% growth in order to get 4HKOed by Tigers. So he's far better to take on multiple laguz at once.

BTW I think Titania's overall usefulness is better than Sothe's part 1, he's bound to have durability issues and the only issues affecting her are speed issues which can be fixed by her entitled speedwing, and she has the commodity to use a master crown to bump her up where as Sothe has nothing much going for him but paragon (and I'd rather have it on Jill, Zihark, or Micaiah).

I'd say Vika's 1-7 and 1-8 > Danved's 2-3 and 3-9 since he's not helping too much on 3-9 due to his mobility.

Well, the Crown can go to many people. I found that Titania rapes enough in Part 3 that she simply didn't need it. We could just as easily give it to Haar if he's unlucky with his speed or Gatrie when he caps speed.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Slowking

[RNG Princess]

The high up GM's vs. Sothe has been done to death.I know I've tried to put Mia over him twice,and if she were to go up,Titania would have an easier time of it as well.

But it seems that his Part 1 is enough that in the end,it always seems to be a wasted effort

Really? Well thats overrating Sothe too much since Part 1 is taken over by Volug, Tormod, Muarim and Nailah as soon as they kick in.

I'd put Sothe below Jill, since after Part 1 he's going to be unreliable.

Well, the Crown can go to many people. I found that Titania rapes enough in Part 3 that she simply didn't need it. We could just as easily give it to Haar if he's unlucky with his speed or Gatrie when he caps speed.

Thats true I still gave it to her instead of getting her more cexp ;)

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[-Cynthia-]

Danved's mobility is actually pretty good on 3-9, since he's the only one besides Marcia and Calill who can climb up ledges, neither of whom can effectively solo very many enemies.

Sothe below Jill seems very wrong. First off there's Sothe's massive contributions before Jill joins, he's clearly the best unit on the team from 1-1 to 1-4 and only Volug competes in 1-5. He's getting us the Beastfoe/Seraph Robe etc. Now compare them in 1-6...

--/2 Sothe ( Forged Iron Knife, A Micaiah)

35 HP 26(28) Atk 20 AS 14 Def

Base Jill (forged Iron Axe, Seraph Robe)

31 HP 24 Atk 15 AS 13 Def

Looks closer until you realize that Sothe can counter at 1-2 range and doubles everything (and often doesn't take counters), while Jill doubles almost nothing (a few generals and some mages she can't afford to take a counter from).

Jil improves a little bit more as Part 1 goes on, but she's never outclassing Sothe. Not to mention she's entirely absent from 1-8 when Sothe goes back to MVP status. So adding up all of Sothe's Part 1 chapters where he beats her, that's 10 chapters. There are only 7 chapters left in the game that you can deploy them in.

[RNG Princess]

Danved's mobility is actually pretty good on 3-9, since he's the only one besides Marcia and Calill who can climb up ledges, neither of whom can effectively solo very many enemies.

Sothe below Jill seems very wrong. First off there's Sothe's massive contributions before Jill joins, he's clearly the best unit on the team from 1-1 to 1-4 and only Volug competes in 1-5. He's getting us the Beastfoe/Seraph Robe etc. Now compare them in 1-6...

--/2 Sothe ( Forged Iron Knife, A Micaiah)

35 HP 26(28) Atk 20 AS 14 Def

Base Jill (forged Iron Axe, Seraph Robe)

31 HP 24 Atk 15 AS 13 Def

Looks closer until you realize that Sothe can counter at 1-2 range and doubles everything (and often doesn't take counters), while Jill doubles almost nothing (a few generals and some mages she can't afford to take a counter from).

Jil improves a little bit more as Part 1 goes on, but she's never outclassing Sothe. Not to mention she's entirely absent from 1-8 when Sothe goes back to MVP status. So adding up all of Sothe's Part 1 chapters where he beats her, that's 10 chapters. There are only 7 chapters left in the game that you can deploy them in.

I didn't think of ledge climbing, him and Callil can team up well against enemies but Vika in 1-7 and 1-8 is a little more helpful than he is in 2-3 and 3-9. She can carry Micaiah to the seize spot to help reduce turns and for 1-8 she helps rescuing villagers and her combat is also very helpful since she doubles enemies transformed.

As for Sothe

He's not there in 1-1 but if you mean 1-2 he's got to rush his way to the energy drop chest but I guess he can help clear enemies along the way and steal some vulenaries.

He is undeniably good for 1-3 and for 1-4

For 1-5 he can help clear the top layer but he's certainly not entitled to having too many kills unless you want to skip the master seal in this chapter anyone else getting kills is more beneficial than giving kills to Sothe.

For 1-6-1 he needs many forges to stay strong for ranged attacks and he's not the best out there since Tauroneo, Volug and Zihark help the same if not more, as for Jill she's helpful against the pegs.

1-6-2 he's not that special since Jill and Volug outdo whatever Sothe is doing, Jill by flying around and dropping Tauroneo saves me more turns. I guess he can find the master seal and help clear nearby enemies, but his crappy experience gain hardly make him a good candidate for kills so I'd rather have him weaken for someone else.

1-7 he's got to rush to Tormod, and he's not helping much against enemies, maybe he can find the master seal but Vika does it faster. He's not helping clear enemies unless the mages blocking the ledges are killed and Tormod does it better. Jill and Vika help save turns, he doesn't.

1-8 he's good undeniably but needs a forge to deal better damage. Nailah, Volug, and even Zihark can outperform whatever he's doing. Zihark can use the brave sword and adept.

1-E he's better off finding treasure, because everyone else deals better damage even Micaiah. Jill can pick up hammer here and outperform him as well.

For Part 3, Part 4, and endgame he's a letdown and like I said before his experience gain in Part 1 is not helpful (unless he gets boss kills or tiger kills in 1-4) and paragon but of course it fits Micaiah better in Part 1, for Part 3 it fits Jill better. Feeding him too many kills in Part 1 is a waste, at least Volug gets to work his way up to S or SS strike.

His Part 1 performance is overrated and he's not worth much investment since he turns into Eddie by being weak in Part 3 and turns into Meg finding treasures in Part 4. He also costs a lot to stay useful in part 1, he will need at least two or three knife forges.

I can understand Sothe being over Jill, but I don't see how he's superior to Mia or Titania and even Laura.

1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, and 1-8 is what he has over Jill

3-6, 3-12, 3-13, whatever chapters in Part 4 is what Jill has over Sothe.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

Jill can pick up hammer here and outperform him as well.

Except for the part where the hammer has awful hit, which gets punched down even further by Jarod's authiroty stars.

[RNG Princess]

Except for the part where the hammer has awful hit, which gets punched down even further by Jarod's authiroty stars.

She's still outdamaging whatever Sothe is doing with any other axe except bronze or iron :P

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

She's still outdamaging whatever Sothe is doing with any other axe except bronze or iron :P

Then why'd you have to go and mention the hammer with its awful accuracy? Besides, a hammer isn't a weapon I'd want to be caught using when confronted by non-armors.

[Narga_Rocks]

I can't tell if you did or not, but did you factor in a Max crit forge? this at least helps his chances.

12 + 10 + 15 = 37 crit.

Are you telling me you think he can pull 37 crit in part 3 without me giving him a crit forge? You should be complaining I didn't give him the brave sword (I honestly forgot about it until now). He fails to 2HKO tigers (at least, the 20 def ones), but with brave he at least gets the 18 def tigers and cats with just vantage + beastfoe. Of course, the biggest nuisance on the entire map has always been the 20 def tigers, so he still fails on them and needs adept to proc (and now has less crit).

Why is he being compared to friggin Nolan??? no one ever said he could beat Nolan, of course nolan useing beastfoe is better, but zihark CAN make somewhat decent use of beastfoe, better than like Leo and all other DB scrubs.

Okay, so he's, what, 3rd? Nolan > Volug > Zihark with it? And you could even slap it on Leo if you want. Zihark isn't reliably living because he's 2HKOd by everything and can barely get to 12% pre-blick. He's not going to tear up enemy phase like that, so having Leo instagib one enemy a turn is actually pretty close to what Z's doing anyway. And Leo just needs to hit level 10 and get a seal, so he doesn't need much. I'm not impressed.

[RNG Princess]

BTW why should Sothe get credit for Seraph robe? Anyone else can have a chest key and grab it.

Then why'd you have to go and mention the hammer with its awful accuracy? Besides, a hammer isn't a weapon I'd want to be caught using when confronted by non-armors.

Well hammer can be helpful for 1-7 on Jill or Nolan.

As for Hammer on 1-E its personal experience really, it worked fine for me but I shouldn't have counted that in ;). Forges are better and they're pretty convenient for axes too.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

You have to deal with hit rates of ~55 in 1-7 and ~40 in 1-E with the Hammer. Not a good choice.

[Fenrir]

Jil improves a little bit more as Part 1 goes on, but she's never outclassing Sothe. Not to mention she's entirely absent from 1-8 when Sothe goes back to MVP status. So adding up all of Sothe's Part 1 chapters where he beats her, that's 10 chapters. There are only 7 chapters left in the game that you can deploy them in.

hmmm...sothe is better than nailah, maurim and volug??? you can say he is actually 4th best unit, not to mention Zihark, tormod and vika. All of these 6 people most likely beat sothe. 7th best unit? he very well could be. definitly not MVP, nailah fo sho.

EDIT: @narga brave does help his case a TON, but you would probly say we're stealing this from the best combat unit in the game. anyways, you can't expect a guy arguing a SM has good durability to remember about BSI'm so clever

Edited July 3, 2010 by Fenrir

[RNG Princess]

hmmm...sothe is better than nailah, maurim and volug??? you can say he is actually 4th best unit, not to mention Zihark, tormod and vika. All of these 6 people most likely beat sothe. 7th best unit? he very well could be. definitly not MVP, nailah fo sho.

Nailah is automatic MVP unless you don't want to take care of the upper-left villagers ;).

You have to deal with hit rates of ~55 in 1-7 and ~40 in 1-E with the Hammer. Not a good choice.

what about a support? I'm sure that would help the hit a little better. Its still too low, you're right.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Sothe has to cover more of the map than Nailah or Muarim. I'd say he definitely reigns supreme here, since there is quite literally no other way to kill the boss on turn 4 without Celerity Sothe.

[grandjackal]

Just like Sothe with beastkiller, I'd rather not take the chances.

Point of the beastkiller is to kill after a chip to avoid player phase counters WITHOUT having to hog Beastfoe. With proper mobility, you can reduce the number of guys he fights on enemy phase. It effectively gives you Beastfoe, then mini-Beastfoe.

Aran always struck me as apathetic rather than depressed, and I imagine his scent to be as bland and flavourless as his personality.

The point I'm making here is that I'd rather use Eddie than Aran.

BREAKING NEWS: nolan is not used in every PT

Who the hell else are you gonna use? There's so few people on the DB that he's not exactly just gonna be benched. Most of the time, the only people fighting for a unit slot up until like 1-7 are lol Meg and Fiona. You honestly suggesting we bench Nolan for the failure duo? Even form 1-7 on, he's been used well to the point that you might as well continue to use him unless you're purposefully just making him a weak member of your team.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Master Tang

[RNG Princess]

Point of the beastkiller is to kill after a chip to avoid player phase counters WITHOUT having to hog Beastfoe. With proper mobility, you can reduce the number of guys he fights on enemy phase. It effectively gives you Beastfoe, then mini-Beastfoe.

If you leave it on him he's likely to get killed, so its better to trade it off of him just like its better to have Zihark not use Brave Sword or beastfoe.

Sothe has to cover more of the map than Nailah or Muarim. I'd say he definitely reigns supreme here, since there is quite literally no other way to kill the boss on turn 4 without Celerity Sothe.

What about Celerity Zihark with Brave Sword?

or maybe he can't use Celerity.

What about Vika + Wrath?

Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia