Narga_Rocks Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 hmmm...sothe is better than nailah, maurim and volug??? you can say he is actually 4th best unit, not to mention Zihark, tormod and vika. All of these 6 people most likely beat sothe. 7th best unit? he very well could be. definitly not MVP, nailah fo sho. EDIT: @narga brave does help his case a TON, but you would probly say we're stealing this from the best combat unit in the game. anyways, you can't expect a guy arguing a SM has good durability to remember about BSI'm so clever dondon already touched on this, but 1-8 really is sothe's stomping grounds. Forged iron knives are that good (and 7 move while ignoring terrain certainly helps, too. 9 if you give him Celerity). The two MVPs of the map are easily Nailah and sothe. It's hard to determine who is better. sothe handles most of the boss' friends and the path to reach it while Nailah runs amok in the west. Volug has 19 speed and can't double the bandits and actually can't even 4 hit them if he did double. He 5 rounds. That's insanely pathetic. This is, quite probably, Volug's worst chapter in the game (at least he has mages to attack, but some are thunder with crit on him and others are elfire which cause massive damage). sothe is easily King of the East while Nailah is Queen of the West. As for "stealing this from the best combat unit in the game", it's more "Brave sword lets us either ORKO Generals with reliable hit (unlike hammers) in part 3, or it makes Zihark ever so slightly more likely to live through an enemy phase". It's not about Ike, it's about what the brave sword can do for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 dondon already touched on this, but 1-8 really is sothe's stomping grounds. Forged iron knives are that good (and 7 move while ignoring terrain certainly helps, too. 9 if you give him Celerity). The two MVPs of the map are easily Nailah and sothe. It's hard to determine who is better. sothe handles most of the boss' friends and the path to reach it while Nailah runs amok in the west. Volug has 19 speed and can't double the bandits and actually can't even 4 hit them if he did double. He 5 rounds. That's insanely pathetic. This is, quite probably, Volug's worst chapter in the game (at least he has mages to attack, but some are thunder with crit on him and others are elfire which cause massive damage). sothe is easily King of the East while Nailah is Queen of the West. Volug can double some brigands that have 15 AS. I gave Volug my energy drop so he was 4HKOing by a comfortable margin, but without the 12 extra damage he is actually missing 4HKOs. But there are a fair deal of mages around that he can kill while Nailah takes on the brigands, and Rafiel is there for the extra player phase action. So Volug is still useful. Nailah still needs Volug's help to clear out the enemies because she can't counter 2 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Who the hell else are you gonna use? There's so few people on the DB that he's not exactly just gonna be benched. Most of the time, the only people fighting for a unit slot up until like 1-7 are lol Meg and Fiona. You honestly suggesting we bench Nolan for the failure duo? Even form 1-7 on, he's been used well to the point that you might as well continue to use him unless you're purposefully just making him a weak member of your team. ed and jill are candidates. dondon already touched on this, but 1-8 really is sothe's stomping grounds. Forged iron knives are that good (and 7 move while ignoring terrain certainly helps, too. 9 if you give him Celerity). The two MVPs of the map are easily Nailah and sothe. It's hard to determine who is better. sothe handles most of the boss' friends and the path to reach it while Nailah runs amok in the west. Volug has 19 speed and can't double the bandits and actually can't even 4 hit them if he did double. He 5 rounds. That's insanely pathetic. This is, quite probably, Volug's worst chapter in the game (at least he has mages to attack, but some are thunder with crit on him and others are elfire which cause massive damage). sothe is easily King of the East while Nailah is Queen of the West. As for "stealing this from the best combat unit in the game", it's more "Brave sword lets us either ORKO Generals with reliable hit (unlike hammers) in part 3, or it makes Zihark ever so slightly more likely to live through an enemy phase". It's not about Ike, it's about what the brave sword can do for us. what about what elincia said, zihark with wind edge, or is it not good enough, i cannot recall how good it is at that point. Vika with wrath...? not ever so slightly, only the strongest tigers can survive and all he needs is apedt or crit. but otherwise vantage = kill. This more than doubles his chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) What about Celerity Zihark with Brave Sword? or maybe he can't use Celerity. What about Vika + Wrath? Zihark doesn't use 1 move to cross reeds and thickets like Sothe. Wrath is way too counter-intuitive for my tastes. One lucky hit, and you're dead. I fail to see any value in a skill that requires you to be at death's door before it activates. Edited July 3, 2010 by Ein Lanford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) Corect me if I'm wrong: 1-P Eddie is the superstar 1-1 Nolan 1-2 either Nolan or Sothe 1-3 Sothe 1-4 Sothe 1-5 whoever got the most kills, usually Volug or Sothe 1-6-1 it has to be Volug and his awesome move 1-6-2 Volug goes to wall Fiona, Jill makes it possible to end it sooner 1-7 Not Sothe for sure 1-8 Either Nailah or "Sothe" 1-9 BK 1-E Nailah for sure Zihark doesn't use 1 move to cross reeds and thickets like Sothe. Wrath is way too counter-intuitive for my tastes. One lucky hit, and you're dead. I definitely fail to see any value in a skill that requires you to be at death's door before it activates. irrc Vika doubles the boss in 1-8. He can hurt her and have her activate wrath on her second hit. It is too risky anyway, but maybe Sothe isn't the only answer to finish 1-8 in 4 turns. Its probably the safest way, I'd like to try. However thats just one thing he has in his favor I had admitted to him a few posts back I don't see how he's considered higher than Mia or Titania, and even Laura or Jill. Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 irrc Vika doubles the boss in 1-8. He can hurt her and have her activate wrath on her second hit. It is too risky anyway, but maybe Sothe isn't the only answer to finish 1-8 in 4 turns. Its probably the safest way, I'd like to try. Radmin has 16 speed. 25 mgc atk against 14 resistance is 11 damage. Also, unless Vika gets 2 levels, *Soup Nazi imitation attempt* no Wrath for her! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 It's not 'just one thing'. It's many things. Sothe has all of Part 1 where he's good, in some chapters your best character. Even in Part 3, he can take a hit (only one, though) and kill stuff with the Beastkiller, especially if you gave him a +hit support for his annoying hit with it, ad he still has good movement. I'd put him as better than Zihark here, since he also boasts superior 2-range and movement. Of course, he's pretty awful in 3-12 and 3-13, but it's not like Titania doesn't have her own expiry date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 (edited) Radmin has 16 speed. 25 mgc atk against 14 resistance is 11 damage. Also, unless Vika gets 2 levels, *Soup Nazi imitation attempt* no Wrath for her! Thats interesting well finishing 1-8 in 5 turns isn't bad either anyway. It's not 'just one thing'. It's many things. Sothe has all of Part 1 where he's good, in some chapters your best character. Even in Part 3, he can take a hit (only one, though) and kill stuff with the Beastkiller, especially if you gave him a +hit support for his annoying hit with it, ad he still has good movement. I'd put him as better than Zihark here, since he also boasts superior 2-range and movement. Of course, he's pretty awful in 3-12 and 3-13, but it's not like Titania doesn't have her own expiry date. Titania is awful for that mountain chapter and 3-7 or was it 3-8 I forgot. I agree Sothe > Zihark on some things but being great for 1 Part and turning passable for another then awful for the rest isn't exactly beating Mia or Titania when they're convenient from start to end unless they're screwed. In Part 1 finding items and chests really helps him. I don't give him too much credit for taking Thani or seraph robe since its possible for someone else to get them instead while saving turns. However finding beastfoe is what makes him amazing in my eyes. He's also a good fighter throughout part 1, lacking in 1-E though. However his contributions in Part 1 are overrating his placing considering how for the rest of the game he's a liability. Edited July 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Volug can double some brigands that have 15 AS. I gave Volug my energy drop so he was 4HKOing by a comfortable margin, but without the 12 extra damage he is actually missing 4HKOs. But there are a fair deal of mages around that he can kill while Nailah takes on the brigands, and Rafiel is there for the extra player phase action. So Volug is still useful. Nailah still needs Volug's help to clear out the enemies because she can't counter 2 range. worst chapter is not the same as being bad. He's very good in every other spot except maybe 4-E, but I think he's worse in 1-8. At least, more luck reliant considering he needs to not be criticaled if you want him to dance with thunder mages. what about what elincia said, zihark with wind edge, or is it not good enough, i cannot recall how good it is at that point. Vika with wrath...? Um, wind edge Zihark: 17 str, 22 skill, 23 speed, 11 luck. Give him +1 to everything to be nice. 24 mt with wind edge, 118 hit. sothe with +5mt, +15hit iron knife forge Give him level 4, so 20 str, 22 skl, 17 luck. 27 mt with iron knife, 141 hit. You decide. not ever so slightly, only the strongest tigers can survive and all he needs is apedt or crit. but otherwise vantage = kill. This more than doubles his chances. Even if he's pulling vantage = live, that's still only 25%. Considering Nolan gets 18% and can take an extra hit, and Zihark is hogging Brave sword now... Besides, level 16 tigers are listed with 20 def on the enemy stats page. Know how many are level 16? Nineteen. And 2 level 17 tigers. Basically, Zihark can only vantage-kill 28 out of 49 enemies. Assuming even distribution, that's almost 1 in 2 enemies that he can't. Meaning even if he only gets attacked by one thing each enemy phase, he's still not able to vantage-kill every other turn. And since the brave sword actually has no boosted crit, he's looking at possibly lower than that earlier 12% on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 worst chapter is not the same as being bad. He's very good in every other spot except maybe 4-E, but I think he's worse in 1-8. At least, more luck reliant considering he needs to not be criticaled if you want him to dance with thunder mages. Um, wind edge Zihark: 17 str, 22 skill, 23 speed, 11 luck. Give him +1 to everything to be nice. 24 mt with wind edge, 118 hit. sothe with +5mt, +15hit iron knife forge Give him level 4, so 20 str, 22 skl, 17 luck. 27 mt with iron knife, 141 hit. You decide. I said Brave Sword not wind edge :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 worst chapter is not the same as being bad. He's very good in every other spot except maybe 4-E, but I think he's worse in 1-8. At least, more luck reliant considering he needs to not be criticaled if you want him to dance with thunder mages. Um, wind edge Zihark: 17 str, 22 skill, 23 speed, 11 luck. Give him +1 to everything to be nice. 24 mt with wind edge, 118 hit. sothe with +5mt, +15hit iron knife forge Give him level 4, so 20 str, 22 skl, 17 luck. 27 mt with iron knife, 141 hit. You decide. Wind Edge has 6 mt base, so it should be 18mt with Beastfoe. And surely you mean Steel Knife for 27mt instead of Iron Knife? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Wind Edge has 6 mt base, so it should be 18mt with Beastfoe. And surely you mean Steel Knife for 27mt instead of Iron Knife? ... this is 1-8... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Speaking of which, Narga forgot the Michaiah support. He'd be stronger and more accurate, forge or no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 ... this is 1-8... Oh wow, I totally assumed he was still talking about 3-6! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Oh wow, I totally assumed he was still talking about 3-6! what about what elincia said, zihark with wind edge, or is it not good enough, i cannot recall how good it is at that point. Vika with wrath...? How do you manage to get Vika into 3-6? worst chapter is not the same as being bad. He's very good in every other spot except maybe 4-E, but I think he's worse in 1-8. At least, more luck reliant considering he needs to not be criticaled if you want him to dance with thunder mages. Um, wind edge Zihark: 17 str, 22 skill, 23 speed, 11 luck. Give him +1 to everything to be nice. 24 mt with wind edge, 118 hit. sothe with +5mt, +15hit iron knife forge Give him level 4, so 20 str, 22 skl, 17 luck. 27 mt with iron knife, 141 hit. You decide. Even if he's pulling vantage = live, that's still only 25%. Considering Nolan gets 18% and can take an extra hit, and Zihark is hogging Brave sword now... Besides, level 16 tigers are listed with 20 def on the enemy stats page. Know how many are level 16? Nineteen. And 2 level 17 tigers. Basically, Zihark can only vantage-kill 28 out of 49 enemies. Assuming even distribution, that's almost 1 in 2 enemies that he can't. Meaning even if he only gets attacked by one thing each enemy phase, he's still not able to vantage-kill every other turn. And since the brave sword actually has no boosted crit, he's looking at possibly lower than that earlier 12% on them. I said Brave Sword not wind edge :/ Wasn't talking to you. And brave sword only helps on the first couple of bandits near your starting position. After that, sothe's ability to ignore thickets as well as his ability to counter epicly at 2 range means he's the ideal celerity candidate for 1-8. Speaking of which, Narga forgot the Michaiah support. He'd be stronger and more accurate, forge or no. sothe with 9 move (celerity) and 1 move cost through thickets and Micaiah with 5 move and 2 move cost through thickets... no, I didn't forget the Micaiah support, GJ, I just decided it wasn't going to be worth anything after turn 1, and maybe not even on turn 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 no, I didn't forget the Micaiah support, GJ, I just decided it wasn't going to be worth anything after turn 1, and maybe not even on turn 1. The hell else is Vika going to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 The hell else is Vika going to do? too far. Besides, according to dondon she'll be ferrying Tormod. It's that or you could have her attack stuff. I mean, she has exactly 5 capacity free, so no saviour happening there. Also, if she's within 3 it's possible enemies could attack her instead of sothe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 sothe with 9 move (celerity) and 1 move cost through thickets and Micaiah with 5 move and 2 move cost through thickets... aaah i forgot about sothe ignoring thickets, this stage, combined with 1-2 through 1-4 give sothe the edge over titan/mia. because he's best/2nd best unit on these stages. not to mention he is also really good on the rest of P1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Corect me if I'm wrong: 1-P Eddie is the superstar 1-1 Nolan 1-2 either Nolan or Sothe 1-3 Sothe 1-4 Sothe 1-5 whoever got the most kills, usually Volug or Sothe 1-6-1 it has to be Volug and his awesome move 1-6-2 Volug goes to wall Fiona, Jill makes it possible to end it sooner 1-7 Not Sothe for sure 1-8 Either Nailah or "Sothe" 1-9 BK 1-E Nailah for sure 1-2 is definitely Sothe. 1-5 is a toss-up and it doesn't really matter, but Sothe can counterkill better on enemy phase. 1-6-1 is Sothe as well, but I'm tempted to give it to Jill because she has to drop Tauroneo in the northwest (and he wastes everything there). 1-6-2 is definitely Jill as well, since she drops Tauroneo and lets him annihilate Laverton. 1-7 is Volug for being able to ferry Micaiah with Savior. 1-8 is Sothe, and 1-E is tossup between Nailah and BK because you'll need the BK to waste the enemies on the top floor with Alondite, which Nailah can't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nflchamp Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Volug can double some brigands that have 15 AS. I gave Volug my energy drop so he was 4HKOing by a comfortable margin, but without the 12 extra damage he is actually missing 4HKOs. But there are a fair deal of mages around that he can kill while Nailah takes on the brigands, and Rafiel is there for the extra player phase action. So Volug is still useful. Nailah still needs Volug's help to clear out the enemies because she can't counter 2 range. I'm pretty sure there are only 3 2-range enemies and a healer on the left side of 1-8 and everyone else will suicide into Nailah. I can say this as I'm pretty Naliah cleared the left side on her own in 4 turns for me and had nothing to do on my turn 5, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I'm pretty sure there are only 3 2-range enemies and a healer on the left side of 1-8 and everyone else will suicide into Nailah. I can say this as I'm pretty Naliah cleared the left side on her own in 4 turns for me and had nothing to do on my turn 5, IIRC. Thats true, it happened for me as well ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Spoon Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I don't see transfer Sothe listed on the tier list. Is this an oversight, or... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I think that Elincia needs to go down. Even with Paragon on her continuously in Part 4, she struggled to gain levels in time for Endgame. Elincia needs to be very high levelled to have decent damage output against Generals. Like, level 13 to quad reliably, and even then she only 5HKOes. She's useless against Cover Generals, almost useless for Dheginsea and Sephiran (I only found her useful because I failed to get Micaiah to A Staff Rank), and pretty mediocre against Auras, needing a whopping level 18 to quad with Nasir. I don't see transfer Sothe listed on the tier list. Is this an oversight, or... We only assume transfers that are possible in Fixed Mode, and Sothe is actually slightly worse with Fixed Mode transfers, even with Band use, so we don't list him. He would actually be underneath Sothe (N). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Spoon Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 We only assume transfers that are possible in Fixed Mode, and Sothe is actually slightly worse with Fixed Mode transfers, even with Band use, so we don't list him. He would actually be underneath Sothe (N). Yes, I do realize that Sothe (T) is worse than Sothe (N), but I don't see why this prevents Sothe (T) from being tiered, unless there's some double-standard that I'm unaware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ether Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 It's been discussed before,but I guess a decision was never reached,so they left it as is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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