OMG it's a tier list

[Fenrir]

Geoffrey has really good bases, a free Brave Lance, Mounted utility, and is fairly easy to promote. His SPD's an issue (same with all paladins), but his STR and SKL and quite nice, and his RES isn't half-bad either. He can take a hit and double quite a few enemies without issue. He also has Paragon, which is keyword for "abuse".

Soren uses Anima magic, has no durability against physicals, can't double, and doesn't bring anything useful until he promotes, which is when he gets staffs, which means the GM now have 3 healers. Soren is liked because of his EM performance, but on HM, he falls apart. He also has Adept, which doesn't make much sense on him.

you have soren in your username i used to have soren in my username. We both agree geoff > soren(or at least from what you say)

So obviously Soren < Geoffrey

Edited July 7, 2010 by Fenrir

[Anouleth]

Geoffrey has really good bases, a free Brave Lance, Mounted utility, and is fairly easy to promote. His SPD's an issue (same with all paladins), but his STR and SKL and quite nice, and his RES isn't half-bad either. He can take a hit and double quite a few enemies without issue. He also has Paragon, which is keyword for "abuse".

Geoffrey has no real claim to his Brave Lance past 2-3. It can easily be shipped over to the GMs so that Nephenee, Gatrie, or Oscar can make use of it. Marcia/Danved also have their eye on it.

Paragon is also worthless. While it's locked on him in 2-3, he still only gets 2 EXP per kill. In 3-9, we will remove it and give it to someone else, so we can make use of it in 3-11, 3-E and early Part 4.

By the time Geoffrey rejoins in Part 4, he is simply worthless. With only one, short chapter before Endgame, he has no opportunity to gain experience and even if he did, he needs to be 20/18 or something ridiculous just to double Generals in 4-E-1.

Soren uses Anima magic, has no durability against physicals, can't double, and doesn't bring anything useful until he promotes, which is when he gets staffs, which means the GM now have 3 healers. Soren is liked because of his EM performance, but on HM, he falls apart. He also has Adept, which doesn't make much sense on him.

Soren's speed is actually better than Geoffrey's, and he generally 2HKOes, even against tough Generals.

Geoffrey vs Soren is Geoffrey's 2-3 and 3-9 (at base stats) against Soren's Part 3 chip damage. Which isn't awful, it must be said. 33mt with a Fire forge 2HKOes everything under the sun, and as he gains levels and forms a support, his damage will only increase in line with enemy HP and resistance.

[-Cynthia-]

I rarely see the need to ship the Brave Lance over to the GMs personally, the CRKs could use some help on offense since they're all bad at doubling. He won't have it past 3-9 though.

Geoffrey's post 3-9 performance is kind of irrelevant IMO. Like Tormod/Vika/Neal, he does his thing for a few chapters and then just goes away/dies. All the CRKs should be benched come 3-11 really, they're inferior to the GM team at this point and even Marcia/Calill's long term benefits are pretty lame.

Edited July 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I rarely see the need to ship the Brave Lance over to the GMs personally, the CRKs could use some help on offense since they're all bad at doubling. He won't have it past 3-9 though.

Well, do you want to use the Brave Lance for 3-9, or for 2-E, 3-2 to 3-5, 3-7, and 3-8? It's 1 chapter to 7.

Edited July 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Geoffrey has no real claim to his Brave Lance past 2-3. It can easily be shipped over to the GMs so that Nephenee, Gatrie, or Oscar can make use of it. Marcia/Danved also have their eye on it.

Paragon is also worthless. While it's locked on him in 2-3, he still only gets 2 EXP per kill. In 3-9, we will remove it and give it to someone else, so we can make use of it in 3-11, 3-E and early Part 4.

By the time Geoffrey rejoins in Part 4, he is simply worthless. With only one, short chapter before Endgame, he has no opportunity to gain experience and even if he did, he needs to be 20/18 or something ridiculous just to double Generals in 4-E-1.

Soren's speed is actually better than Geoffrey's, and he generally 2HKOes, even against tough Generals.

Geoffrey vs Soren is Geoffrey's 2-3 and 3-9 (at base stats) against Soren's Part 3 chip damage. Which isn't awful, it must be said. 33mt with a Fire forge 2HKOes everything under the sun, and as he gains levels and forms a support, his damage will only increase in line with enemy HP and resistance.

Well then. I wanted to know why Soren was above Geoff, and this is rather convincing. I'll just drop the issue.

[Fenrir]

Geoffrey has no real claim to his Brave Lance past 2-3. It can easily be shipped over to the GMs so that Nephenee, Gatrie, or Oscar can make use of it. Marcia/Danved also have their eye on it.

Paragon is also worthless. While it's locked on him in 2-3, he still only gets 2 EXP per kill. In 3-9, we will remove it and give it to someone else, so we can make use of it in 3-11, 3-E and early Part 4.

By the time Geoffrey rejoins in Part 4, he is simply worthless. With only one, short chapter before Endgame, he has no opportunity to gain experience and even if he did, he needs to be 20/18 or something ridiculous just to double Generals in 4-E-1.

Soren's speed is actually better than Geoffrey's, and he generally 2HKOes, even against tough Generals.

Geoffrey vs Soren is Geoffrey's 2-3 and 3-9 (at base stats) against Soren's Part 3 chip damage. Which isn't awful, it must be said. 33mt with a Fire forge 2HKOes everything under the sun, and as he gains levels and forms a support, his damage will only increase in line with enemy HP and resistance.

Soren has better speed than geoffrey, but does this mean anything? Soren is also the slowest person on his team. Soren's chip damage is nice, but it sucks, and Soren should be benched by 3-3, that's 3 chapters of chip damage, Vs two chapters of being best unit on the team...Please use logic.

[-Cynthia-]

Well, do you want to use the Brave Lance for 3-9, or for 2-E, 3-2 to 3-5, 3-7, and 3-8? It's 1 chapter to 7.

GMs get enough resources really, from all the other stuff they get from the CRKs and the DB, it makes sense to leave something behind to give us a faster clear on 3-9.

You can use a similar logic to take things from the DB to the GMs, since it's their 3 part 3 chapters to the GMs 9 (3-2 and beyond). But we still usually leave Paragon and some other stuff behind to make the DB chapters easier. At a certain point I don't think more stuff really helps the GMs out all that much.

[Rewjeo]

Soren's still capable of doing helpful things as a unit after 3-3, so I'd assume we use him. Geoffrey gets dropped because he's hardly doing more than an empty slot when he comes back and is just so far behind. Soren isn't kicking out 20 people that are better than him to be on the team.

[Anouleth]

Soren has better speed than geoffrey, but does this mean anything? Soren is also the slowest person on his team. Soren's chip damage is nice, but it sucks, and Soren should be benched by 3-3, that's 3 chapters of chip damage, Vs two chapters of being best unit on the team...Please use logic.

Soren's chip damage does not 'suck'. He 2HKOes. Go check what 35mt targeting Res does in 3-4. 2HKO against everything. If he has 36mt, then he leaves SMs on single digit HP. And crazy hit, too. Just a +15 hit on his fire forge gives him 175 hit. So even firing up a ledge, he has 75-80 display hit on Sages and Generals.

Soren can also OHKO Dragonmasters with a Thunder forge, but he might not get one. We don't really have room to transfer that and a Fire forge from the DB, even if he can take Ilyana's leftovers.

Geoffrey is not really the best unit on the team. He's probably ever so slightly better than Kieran, purely due to the existence of the Brave Lance, but Kieran is also crucial for some parts like OHKOing the Gate in 2-3.

[dondon151]

You have Thunder forges available from 3-2 anyway.

[Fenrir]

Soren's chip damage does not 'suck'. He 2HKOes. Go check what 35mt targeting Res does in 3-4. 2HKO against everything. If he has 36mt, then he leaves SMs on single digit HP. And crazy hit, too. Just a +15 hit on his fire forge gives him 175 hit. So even firing up a ledge, he has 75-80 display hit on Sages and Generals.

Soren can also OHKO Dragonmasters with a Thunder forge, but he might not get one. We don't really have room to transfer that and a Fire forge from the DB, even if he can take Ilyana's leftovers.

Geoffrey is not really the best unit on the team. He's probably ever so slightly better than Kieran, purely due to the existence of the Brave Lance, but Kieran is also crucial for some parts like OHKOing the Gate in 2-3.

Well, it may not suck, but his movement is lacking, He's a fine unit to have around. However Geoffrey probably cuts down more turns.

I don't think chip can get you above a ORKOing unit, even if it's only 1-2 maps.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Fenrir

[grandjackal]

1x Tashoria lvl 8 (Swordmaster boss, droppable Wo Dao)

HP 37, Atk 24, AS 24, Hit 147, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 12, Crit 42, Ddg 9

Keiran's most accurate weapon is the killer axe giving him 131 acc. If we got Keiran at bad bio, that's 64 acc. Geoff's Bravelance is 148. Worst he's facing is 82. Geoffery is more likely to take this kill. I don't think Marcia with the Brave Lance is a good idea due to the longbowmen up above. Mak's obviously a no, since he's statistically the weakest guy to take this punk head on.

Only real guy able to stand up to this guy outside of Geoff (since Geoff's got a Bond with Keiran to reduce this guy to 28 crit, the lowest the team's gonna face) is Danved, since Danved's 21 AS avoids a double from this guy, and would 2RKO all the same (Since Geoff's 34 might doesn't quite ORKO with the brave lance), and with that comes the obvious question of who's getting there first.

So, there's an advantage he's got on Keiran.

[dondon151]

You need Geoffrey to defeat Tashoria if you want to clear in 5 turns. You also need Kieran to OHKO the door, though. If you have someone draw away the longbow archers, Geoffrey can 2HKO Tashoria if he's taken a previous round of Brave Lance plus a Physic.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, I don't see how Danved is getting to the gate in time to be using the Brave Lance here. Being the only unmounted unit in a chapter where everyone else has a horse kind of sucks, especially when you're not better than them statisically anyway.

Kieran and Geoffrey are both pretty necessary for faster clears of 2-3/3-9, Kieran>Geoffrey is perfectly reasonable. It's just that Kierans contributions knocking Geoffrey to Lower Mid doesn't make much sense, since Kieran goes slower by himself as well.

Edited July 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

It's easy to rescue-drop Danved forward and still get to the top section in a timely manner. Keep in mind that you only kill the odd enemy that's sitting in your way anyway, so it's not like Makalov/Astrid/Marcia have better things to do.

As for Kieran being allegedly bad against Tashoria, he's actually slightly more durable. When Tashoria is doubling with high crit, that extra 4HP is just as relevant as Geoffrey's slightly higher hit chance.

GJ's calculations are also incorrect. The Killer Axe has 80 hit, Kieran has 20 skill and 16 luck. But Geoffrey also has authority stars, and Tashoria none. So he will actually have 151 hit, for 79 display hit in unfavourable biorhythm.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Slowking

[RNG Princess]

Marcia with the brave lance does better wonders than Geoffrey could, but thats transfered Marcia.

However Marcia does have something over Geoffrey and thats the right to claim paragon on 3-9, it fits her better and benefits the team better. Maybe Kieran or Callil are decent too but there are two paragons. She also has access to horseslayer in 2-3 making her useful, giving her the boss kill over Geoffrey wouldn't be a bad idea. She's a decent candidate in 3-11 for triangle attack, better move and ferrying and the desert chapter she's still useful for flying utility and ferrying. Giving her brave lance helps kill things faster, and train her faster. I don't see how she's not a good candidate for it, I would trade it off her before 3-9 is done so she doesn't use it up in 3-10.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't have a problem with giving Marcia Paragon in 3-9, but she's not going to gain that many levels from the chapter if we're playing efficiently. Marcia isn't ORKOing enemies (especially not the promoted ones that actually give decent Exp) and we're probably 6 turning 3-9 so she's gaining like 2 levels tops, which doesn't make for a good 3-11 performance.

Marcia using the Horseslayer in 2-3 doesn't give her great offense really, all it lets her do is kill lots of unpromoted cavs that we're better off leaving alive for BEXP purposes. The promoted enemies near the end of the map we actually have to kill to reach the boss are mostly unmounted.

Marcia's flying utility in 3-11 is questionable, since we already have Tanith/Sigrun forced, not to mention Haar/Ulki/Janaff/possibly Jill fly and have better combat. Not sure if more fliers really helps us here. She is a decent choice for 4-3 though.

Marcia's Str is too low to be a very good Brave Lancer. Geoffrey has 8 more Str at base, so that's 16 more damage in a round, easily the difference between ORKOing and 2RKOing on most enemies.

Edited July 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[RNG Princess]

I don't have a problem with giving Marcia Paragon in 3-9, but she's not going to gain that many levels from the chapter if we're playing efficiently. Marcia isn't ORKOing enemies (especially not the promoted ones that actually give decent Exp) and we're probably 6 turning 3-9 so she's gaining 2 levels tops, which doesn't make for a good 3-11 performance.

Marcia using the Horseslayer in 2-3 doesn't give her great offense really, all it lets her do is kill lots of unpromoted cavs that we're better off leaving alive for BEXP purposes. The promoted enemies near the end of the map we actually have to kill to reach the boss are mostly unmounted.

Marcia's flying utility in 3-11 is questionable, since we already have Tanith/Sigrun forced, not to mention Haar/Ulki/Janaff/possibly Jill fly and have better combat. Not sure if more fliers really helps us here. She is a decent choice for 4-3 though.

Marcia's Str is too low to be a very good Brave Lancer. Geoffrey has 8 more Str at base, so that's 16 more damage in a round, easily the difference between ORKOing and 2RKOing on most enemies.

Can she kill the horseslayer cav without transfers? I wonder because I find it useful for her to kill him, but mine has transfers.

As for 3-11 she's a decent unit really if you have Jill, the hawks do help but their offense make them better for fighting than for ferrying.

Or you could clear the mage and halb with the barriers with Sigrun and Haar, so maybe Marcia's ferrying won't be too necessary. (Sigrun would need a forge though).

Edited July 7, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

You need Geoffrey to defeat Tashoria if you want to clear in 5 turns. You also need Kieran to OHKO the door, though. If you have someone draw away the longbow archers, Geoffrey can 2HKO Tashoria if he's taken a previous round of Brave Lance plus a Physic.

I suppose depending on how fast we're going, Mak and Astrid can't quite take it out themselves, as to allow Keiran and Geoff canto-kill the boss in one go?

It's easy to rescue-drop Danved forward and still get to the top section in a timely manner. Keep in mind that you only kill the odd enemy that's sitting in your way anyway, so it's not like Makalov/Astrid/Marcia have better things to do.

Well, it could also help in killing less people, since those that normally double now have speed cut in half, so it could help in going the pacifist route. I think it could also help in getting the Speedwing, though I'm not 100% sure on that.

As for Kieran being allegedly bad against Tashoria, he's actually slightly more durable. When Tashoria is doubling with high crit, that extra 4HP is just as relevant as Geoffrey's slightly higher hit chance.

Since he doubles both for 9 damage, a crit is 27 damage, and the next hit makes it 36. Geoff's got 37 HP. He'd still survive just like Keiran, and I doubt Keiran's extra HP helps against the longbowmen when he's reduced to 5 HP himself.

GJ's calculations are also incorrect. The Killer Axe has 80 hit, Kieran has 20 skill and 16 luck. But Geoffrey also has authority stars, and Tashoria none. So he will actually have 151 hit, for 79 display hit in unfavourable biorhythm.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe10/axe.html

Behold, 75 acc on the Killer Axe.

Though I did miss the authority stars deal.

[Zkirsche]

Since he doubles both for 9 damage, a crit is 27 damage, and the next hit makes it 36. Geoff's got 37 HP. He'd still survive just like Keiran, and I doubt Keiran's extra HP helps against the longbowmen when he's reduced to 5 HP himself.

Kieran with Killer also has quite a good chance to critkill remember.

[dondon151]

Would you still say that there is a tactic that involves specific use of Eddie to help make the chapter easier? Because if we're ignoring a proper tactic just because of a number comparison, I feel it's not doing justice for the comparison. Granted it's a weakness of his, I just feel it's a weakness that is vastly exaggerated.

Again, I did not say anything about Eddie not getting credit for 1-1; I am simply saying that due to his lack of offensive and defensive prowess, this is not a good map for him to gain EXP (unless, of course, you're leeching from Nolan).

Then why the hell did you bring up the left side in the first place? If we go the left side, we can get more exp for the team overall, and Eddie helps us because of this. 6 turns is not out of the question here either.

Really, now? You did it in 9 turns. You said that you could have done it in 8, so I'm taking your word for it. You face 6 enemies on the RHS plus a door (but the fighter up top is ORKO'd by Sothe on turn 1 so that's a non-factor). You face 11 enemies on the LHS plus the 2 soldiers that come on turn 2 with Aran (not to mention you have to deal with Aran until you recruit him). And then there's the armor and the longbow archer blocking the escape tile. I am almost certain that you have to face all 4 armors on the map going down the LHS. 22 atk Kard Sothe does 16/28 HP damage... which requires 16/0 Nolan to follow up with the KO, or just Elthunder Ilyana (but that falls short on the 29 HP, 15 def armors). Micaiah OHKOs with some levels on base (which she might or might not have), but literally can't take a hit from any other enemy there. If it weren't for the fact that my strategy required Nolan to accompany Micaiah and Sothe (since Micaiah did not have the necessary 10 mag to blick the armor guarding the escape tile), I could have easily completed in 6 turns while farming EXP for Nolan up top.

Point to me an instant where that has to happen. There's only 2 situations on which that might happen. The first turn with the two spaces (which yeah, doesn't have to be Eddie), and the point right after with 3 tigers (of which involves a 1 space wide chokehold, and Sothe's Beastslayer exists for a reason). Past turn 2, Wrath's fair game because...Go ahead, say it with me.

You can't do the bottom chokepoint on turn 1 and it doesn't really matter what else you do. Because I'm pretty sure that if you go faster than 6 turns, your success rate for finding the Master Seal and Beastfoe drops far below 64%. Nolan doesn't really have trouble holding the top chokepoint because at 12/0 with some form of +def support he survives 2 26 atk tigers with 1 HP. Eddie has to watch out for accidentally blicking cats (9 str and 11 MT forge) and then getting his ass handed to him by a tiger and he has to watch out for accidentally blicking tigers weakened by an Elthunder, Thani, or Hand Axe and subsequently getting KO'd by either a cat or a tiger.

Not impossible by any means, and how the hell does it hurt Nolan's performance in the least? He went from guy who hits hard with an axe to guy who hits hard with an axe.

Then a few chapters down the road, you realize that Nolan is doubled by myrms, and a few chapters after that you realize that his 3-6 performance has tanked and you're forced to rely on Sothe, Zihark, Zihark v2, and Volug to carry your offense through that chapter.

You also forgot that ledge bonus gives you +2 might as well, giving our Eddie here 21 might. So all he's missing is Fighters. This can be helped with aid from Leo's Longbow if we're being anal about it, since even base Leo would be doing 10 damage to fighters with it.

I sure as hell did not forget about the ledge bonus. Please tell me how 21 MT 2HKOs 28 HP, 11 def soldiers. Oh, and here's a hilarious fact: Leo needs 20 attacks to even have the rank for Iron Longbow. He does not have to attack at all in 1-3 or 1-4. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that him attacking in those maps is counterproductive because he might be preventing Ilyana, Micaiah, or Nolan from attacking at range. But hey, if you're willing to go that far just to favor Eddie, then be my guest.

Are you saying this like we're having one person tank this all out? Because that mage can be dead on turn 2's player phase quite easily. As for the armors, I know they're the guys with the hand axe and javelin. So, let's take level 13 Eddie with C support. 26.65 HP and 8.15+1 Def

Oh, wait, what level was your Eddie again? 12/0? Right. Those "not quite a 2RKOs" became that much closer to "actually a 2RKO" (which, by the way, is guaranteed if Eddie is not on a thicket or in support range).

Newsflash: drop Tauroneo on the west side and have Volug go east. Volug cannot counter either of the generals and does not double the myrm. Sothe might get critkilled and does poor damage. Tauroneo 2HKOs the armors cleanly with Hand Axe and OHKOs the myrm cleanly with Silver Lance.

2x Pegasus knight lvl 12 (Steel Lance, Turn 2, west)

HP 23, Atk 18, AS 9, Hit 114, Avo 30, DEF 9, RES 8, Crit 5, Ddg 12

You're afraid of THIS? Eddie can ORKO this.

Don't be stupid. Eddie cannot ORKO a PK with a Wind Edge at 12/0 without an Energy Drop and a +atk support.

In fact?

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Hand Axe)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 99, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

It's only one guy, but if I recall correctly, this is the very dude at the start of the map. Level 13 Eddie has 12 Str, and a forge brings his might up to 23. No aid required to ORKO this fool. Hell, if Nolan's at B, he's got 38 displayed, so there's still a good chance Eddie won't be hit. Even if he DOES, if you are still so butthurt about it, the person taking the fighter's place can just shove Eddie back, and the person you want to take up that spot now has that spot free.

Oh, shit, this is absolutely gamebreaking right here. Eddie can do one thing that Sothe already does, but better.

If we're talking about the left side, Volug and Sothe are gonna get there first, so it's not Eddie's problem. They'll be dead before he has any time to worry about it.

Here is the approximate kill distribution on my 4 turn clear of 1-6-1:

Sothe: 13

Tauroneo: 5

Volug: 3

Zihark: 2

Jill: 1

Ilyana: 1

With Tauroneo being dropped in the northwest, Sothe taking the center, and Volug taking the northeast. I am not shitting you with these numbers. No scraps for Eddie.

Ok, and? Considering the only people actually affecting the turncount are on the complete other side of the map, what the hell else are you going to have the rest of your team do? You're basically bitching that if we attack said group as a team, Eddie will need a heal from Laura. Forgive me if I'm not crying over spilt milk. Considering this group could even take out Volug, why would you EVER try to have one person take them all?

So this is what I'm inferring: Nolan sponges attacks while Eddie gets the kill EXP. Does anything seem slightly wrong with this?

Why's Eddie taking the ledges? Even considering, as Pass Nailah climbs the ledges, she can snap some necks on her way up.

I wouldn't put Pass on Nailah. You lose it until 4-1, and Pass is a great skill. A better idea is to put Pass on Volug, because he can shove enemies blocking ledges out of the way.

You're gangbanging over a turn

These turns add up. That turn accounts for 6.25% of your total turn deficit in part 1 that can be more or less attributed to raising Eddie.

I had no troubles keeping Eddie alive in 1-4 by the way, so quit your bitching about it. I had more troubles from Nolan whiffing.

No johns, forge better.

You still seem to be unable to grasp that I had no issue whatsoever keeping Eddie alive that entire playthrough.

No, I understand that just fine. I also understand how you did it - you took your time and made sure Eddie didn't get into any life threatening situations.

You misread a LOT on my playthrough for your own argument, that's cute. I could have easily done chapter 1-7 in 5 turns and been no worse off. 5 turns off. I could have done a Taur drop. 2 turns off. Could have done more flying with Jill in 1-6-1. Couple turns off (let's face it, I'm not the perfect player). Had I not gotten the Wind Edge. 3 turns off 1-4 since I would have had the right amount of keys. I flubbed in 1-2 and 1-8. The 1 turn in 1-3 is legitimate, so one has to ask that yes, would Eddie save any turns at ll in part 3?

I am pretty sure that I read your playthrough topic just fine. You say that you could have done 8 turns on 1-7, and I'm taking your word for it. I'm not exactly willing to accept all of these claims unless you empirically show it to be true. It also doesn't help the fact that after your dallying on 1-E you ended up with 3 18/0 tier 1 units when you probably could have had a couple of 20/1 units then.

Well, how does being the best Wrath/Resolver to kill Ike with sound? The only other one is Volug, who has less crit (as Eddie's got class bonus and Caladbolg). Volug after a drop has about 40 might with S strike, while Eddie's got...39. If one can get Eddie to cap Skill and Speed levels, there's also the option of Crowning him for 2 more might, more crit from Trueblade bonuses, and Astra to further increase his kill chances (41 might to Ike's 26 Def. He could have Ragnell equipped, if Eddie lands an Astra, he's toast).

Granted you could say "Well, why not have Volug do it?". Well, he's got a greater chance to fail. If we bring up Trueblade, we're looking at 16 crit from skill, 8 from Resolve, 5 from Caladbolg, 20 from Trueblade, and 50 from Wrath comes together to make 99 crit before luck is involved. We can then throw 24% activation of Astra after Resolve on top of that. Even if we don't, Eddie's still got a greater chance to succeed just due to Caladbolg and Swordmaster crit.

Oh, sure, we could have Brave Axe tier 3 Nolan do it. We could have any combination of tier 3 Jill and someone else do it. We could basically have any tier 3 unit do it with Volug.

Neglecting the fact that Wrath is natural to him, which can give him greater parameters with Resolve for tier 2, something Zihark cannot do.

Neglecting to mention exactly who he is supporting, that being Nolan, of which his support helps make Nolan tougher, something you seem to go absolutely bonkers over. Hell, it makes him tougher for 3-6. He's helping the person doing all the heavy lifting for most of the DB's part 3 do a better job.

Overrating durability as the only thing that matters for part 1 is also laughable, because I can safely say that dying is only going to happen from the worst luck screwing over your accuracy over and over.

If I left Wrath on Eddie in 3-6, I would scoot my chair ever so close to the power button on my Wii.

[Anouleth]

I prefer to soft reset using the home menu, myself. Although, this is HM, so we could always just suspend and reload. Doesn't quite have the cathartic note that a hard reset does, though.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that a Crowned Tauroneo does about 20-21 damage to Ike with a Daemon Card. Energy Drop Volug would have 40mt with S Strike. dondon's 0% growths should have no trouble. Issue is getting to Ike with all those psychotic Tigers in the way, but I'm sure he'll pull off something ridiculous that makes us all look like idiots. And I suppose in a natural playthrough, Ike has somee chance of having better than 50HP/25DEF/8RES, making it impossible... but in that case, Volug can proc strength himself.

[grandjackal]

Again, I did not say anything about Eddie not getting credit for 1-1; I am simply saying that due to his lack of offensive and defensive prowess, this is not a good map for him to gain EXP (unless, of course, you're leeching from Nolan).

Leeching now, are we? I'd like to think it more that we're trying to keep Nolan in good bio for the next chapter.

Really, now? You did it in 9 turns. You said that you could have done it in 8, so I'm taking your word for it. You face 6 enemies on the RHS plus a door (but the fighter up top is ORKO'd by Sothe on turn 1 so that's a non-factor). You face 11 enemies on the LHS plus the 2 soldiers that come on turn 2 with Aran (not to mention you have to deal with Aran until you recruit him). And then there's the armor and the longbow archer blocking the escape tile. I am almost certain that you have to face all 4 armors on the map going down the LHS. 22 atk Kard Sothe does 16/28 HP damage... which requires 16/0 Nolan to follow up with the KO, or just Elthunder Ilyana (but that falls short on the 29 HP, 15 def armors). Micaiah OHKOs with some levels on base (which she might or might not have), but literally can't take a hit from any other enemy there. If it weren't for the fact that my strategy required Nolan to accompany Micaiah and Sothe (since Micaiah did not have the necessary 10 mag to blick the armor guarding the escape tile), I could have easily completed in 6 turns while farming EXP for Nolan up top.

If you want me to do another playthrough of the chapter, then fine. However, checking back on it, I notice I had said 8 or 9 turns because I had forgot to check before ending the chapter. All you know, I could have done it in 7. I can do another runthrough of it if you so wish.

You can't do the bottom chokepoint on turn 1 and it doesn't really matter what else you do.

The 2 space one or the 1 space one? Cause the 1 space one doesn't become important until turn 2. You can easily do the 2 space one on turn 1.

Because I'm pretty sure that if you go faster than 6 turns, your success rate for finding the Master Seal and Beastfoe drops far below 64%.

Well then clearly we don't have a problem.

Nolan doesn't really have trouble holding the top chokepoint because at 12/0 with some form of +def support he survives 2 26 atk tigers with 1 HP. Eddie has to watch out for accidentally blicking cats (9 str and 11 MT forge) and then getting his ass handed to him by a tiger and he has to watch out for accidentally blicking tigers weakened by an Elthunder, Thani, or Hand Axe and subsequently getting KO'd by either a cat or a tiger.

Why go north? 1. There's more kill opportunity to the south on this route map, since Sothe can hit up the lower right heal crystal with Beastslayer while the third tiger chips at the guy blocking the chokepoint with parts of your team going left, 2. Getting the chests isn't really a problem since you should have at least 3 keys. 3. You can get the Master Seal on turn 2 with Sothe, then have him at the Beastfoe spaces by turn 5.

Then a few chapters down the road, you realize that Nolan is doubled by myrms,

What chapters specifically? 1-7 where he'd at best fight a grand total of 1 of them? 1-6-1 where he's behind Volug/Sothe/Zihark/Jill with Taur in tow like everyone else? 1-E where good money says he won't ever fight one?

Past 1-5, how is Nolan any more key than Eddie in part 1? He's not doing anything in particular either. However, if we're thinking how to help performance, how is it that Eddie helping us kill something on his own (examples such as 1-6-1) is worse than Nolan getting the same attention just to not get doubled by myrms? It's like saying giving a wing to someone to avoid them from being doubled is better than giving the wing to someone who can actually kill things with it.

and a few chapters after that you realize that his 3-6 performance has tanked and you're forced to rely on Sothe, Zihark, Zihark v2, and Volug to carry your offense through that chapter.

Oh dear lord, Nolan went from OHKOing with Beastfoe Tarvos to OHKOing with Beastfoe Tarvos!

...Come on man, you can do better than that.

I sure as hell did not forget about the ledge bonus. Please tell me how 21 MT 2HKOs 28 HP, 11 def soldiers.

All soldiers are to the north or to the south. Since Eddie's on the ledge, money says that him ever fighting a soldier are quite slim.

Oh, and here's a hilarious fact: Leo needs 20 attacks to even have the rank for Iron Longbow. He does not have to attack at all in 1-3 or 1-4. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that him attacking in those maps is counterproductive because he might be preventing Ilyana, Micaiah, or Nolan from attacking at range. But hey, if you're willing to go that far just to favor Eddie, then be my guest.

1. How'd you forget about Discipline? 2. Maybe just heading north in 1-4 is counterproductive. If we go south, we got more than enough space to work with at range. 3. Considering a supported Leo with a forge has 20 might at base, unless Nolan got 3 levels within this timeframe where his EXP game is semi-bad due to his somewhat higher starting level and DIDN'T get screwed, Nolan's at best doing 1 more damage with accuracy that is very well at the mercy of biorythmn (can dip into the 60s), forgive me if I'm not too broken up about it. Besides, shouldn't Nolan be doing meaty damage by attacking with his new forge? He would not whiff as often in comparison, and he'd be doing more damage.

Oh, wait, what level was your Eddie again? 12/0? Right. Those "not quite a 2RKOs" became that much closer to "actually a 2RKO" (which, by the way, is guaranteed if Eddie is not on a thicket or in support range).

Why would he not be in support range? He's supporting other foot units. Unless you're purposefully trying to play stupid here...

Newsflash: drop Tauroneo on the west side and have Volug go east. Volug cannot counter either of the generals and does not double the myrm. Sothe might get critkilled and does poor damage. Tauroneo 2HKOs the armors cleanly with Hand Axe and OHKOs the myrm cleanly with Silver Lance.

Yeah, I didn't think of that. Thus explaining my turncount. Thank you, and I will have that in consideration my next playthrough.

Don't be stupid. Eddie cannot ORKO a PK with a Wind Edge at 12/0 without an Energy Drop and a +atk support.

Considering they're having a diffucult time actually killing him, and the fact that it said they had steel lances in plain sight, why would he want to have the Wing Edge out? More of your braindead playing?

If you're referring to the pegasi that come from the east, since apparently we have Volug there, why would they go for Eddie when they would prefer to attack the guy who can't counter back?

Oh, shit, this is absolutely gamebreaking right here. Eddie can do one thing that Sothe already does, but better.

Right, Nolan failing to do that is much better. We'd prefer to have Sothe hang back rather than having him move forward some more for the upcoming enemy phase.

Here is the approximate kill distribution on my 4 turn clear of 1-6-1:

Sothe: 13

Tauroneo: 5

Volug: 3

Zihark: 2

Jill: 1

Ilyana: 1

With Tauroneo being dropped in the northwest, Sothe taking the center, and Volug taking the northeast. I am not shitting you with these numbers. No scraps for Eddie.

Right, Eddie's the one screwing Nolan over when form the looks of it, you were using Nolan and you still dumped him as well. EXP well spent eh? Could have doubled on occasion early on to help with offensive output, but clearly Nolan not being doubled by a myrm in an upcoming chapter where I predict he also will not be used is more important.

So this is what I'm inferring: Nolan sponges attacks while Eddie gets the kill EXP. Does anything seem slightly wrong with this?

Yeah, we're denying Volug some strike experience. Volug's got 25 might and doubling, so even if Nolan's got a couple points of strength over time, he's still doing less damage since he's not doubling.

But hey, clearly Eddie's the one leeching here, not the both of them.

I wouldn't put Pass on Nailah. You lose it until 4-1, and Pass is a great skill.

For what?

A better idea is to put Pass on Volug, because he can shove enemies blocking ledges out of the way.

Alright, I guess that works out in the end anyways.

These turns add up. That turn accounts for 6.25% of your total turn deficit in part 1 that can be more or less attributed to raising Eddie.

It was less Eddie's fault and more simply to my own incompetence (such as the whole Taur issue in 1-6-1, or wasting time rescuing ALL the prisoners in 1-7 as examples). I could name several situations of which Nolan's whiffing fucked me up more than a few minor turns. I can control when to activate Wrath quite easily (though not necessarily him landing it). I can't control Nolan being a blind hobo until 1-4.

No johns, forge better.

+15 hit Nolan at level 12 with an acc support would equate to 131, which is still prone to biorythmn in 1-4 (as in, can still drop to the 80s). I could have spent that to give Eddie 75 crit with these guys (7 natural crt+5 from class+15 from Forge+50 from Wrath). Don't give me crap about how that dangers Eddie because you don't need to tank out 1-4 at all.

No, I understand that just fine. I also understand how you did it - you took your time and made sure Eddie didn't get into any life threatening situations.

You're right, I could have killed everything with Sothe and then given Nolan the credit despite how him whiffing in 1-2 and 1-3 is a life threatening situation alltogether.

I am pretty sure that I read your playthrough topic just fine. You say that you could have done 8 turns on 1-7, and I'm taking your word for it.

Yes, 8 turns if we're trying to get the prisoners escape. I could have easily not done that and I'd have been fine. Just how quickly did you skim it exactly?

I'm not exactly willing to accept all of these claims unless you empirically show it to be true.

If by that you mean you'll plug your ears to tactics for the sake of comparing numbers, I'll just have to do another playthrough then, won't I? Until then I guess we can pretend that FE10 is actually FE6 where we just throw a unit in the vicinity of millions of theoretical units and see if he can come out with the whole army slaughtered and claim they're good.

It also doesn't help the fact that after your dallying on 1-E you ended up with 3 18/0 tier 1 units when you probably could have had a couple of 20/1 units then.

What else would I have done with the BEXP, given it to maybe get one level out of a tier 3 unit in part 4? Besides, Eddie already had 3 stats capped, I would have gotten at best 1 more point in Str, Lck and Def than average. Eddie's fine with a 18 seal.

Oh, sure, we could have Brave Axe tier 3 Nolan do it. We could have any combination of tier 3 Jill and someone else do it. We could basically have any tier 3 unit do it with Volug.

Yet out of all of them, who's got the best chance to do it in just one attack?

If I left Wrath on Eddie in 3-6, I would scoot my chair ever so close to the power button on my Wii.

I have done it, and you wanna know something? They're more apt to go for Nolan. Eddie hangs around for the support bonus, giving him the Def and Avoid to keep him safer, while drawing in the 1 or 2 enemies that wouldn't have reached Nolan otherwise to possibly kill more in one turn than just Nolan alone. Nolan still got all the action he wanted, did it with greater safety, and I actually was able to get more kills in one turn with little danger.

Not one reset. Not even close to one.

[Zkirsche]

Can anyone remember teh arguments for Mist (T) being where she is? I mean, not getting doubled is nice, but she's still a healer in a team which doesn't usually need healing and with existant competition. Not to mention her offence blows.

[Narga_Rocks]

Can anyone remember teh arguments for Mist (T) being where she is? I mean, not getting doubled is nice, but she's still a healer in a team which doesn't usually need healing and with existant competition. Not to mention her offence blows.

No arguments existed since nobody ever bothered. Many of the (T) units were just placed on the list with RF's best effort based on the improvements. Nobody ever really said anything. I think her assumption was that a few spots on the list is valid considering rather than needing a few levels to not get doubled, she simply doesn't get doubled from the start. That's a reasonable improvement. Hence the gap between (N) and (T).