OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Your question really wasn't about Gatrie, it was about how Kyza can help Ranulf. I just felt the need to point out he sucks at even what you're claiming he can do.

I said he was able, I never claimed he was stunning at it. When someone is arguing hte finer points of drawing heat away from someone who doesn't suck, I'm obviously arguing someone low tier here.

They really don't matter because they'll likely be incompetent morons who do something silly like go backwards for healing. Doesn't really change the fact that they'd do a better job than Kyza stat-wise.

Oh, you meant the random laguz running around. My mistake, since I was responding to something about Mist and Rhys doing a better job of removing the people off the ledge than Kyza could.

[nflchamp]

I said he was able, I never claimed he was stunning at it. When someone is arguing hte finer points of drawing heat away from someone who doesn't suck, I'm obviously arguing someone low tier here.

Well, when you consider you're letting a unit who sucks at it and is taking away EXP from a unit that is actually being used who could do the same thing better, Kyza doing the job is arguably a negative.

Oh, you meant the random laguz running around. My mistake, since I was responding to something about Mist and Rhys doing a better job of removing the people off the ledge than Kyza could.

Mist/Rhys can heal the left laguz npcs they could do Kyza's job instead.

[grandjackal]

Well, when you consider you're letting a unit who sucks at it and is taking away EXP from a unit that is actually being used who could do the same thing better, Kyza doing the job is arguably a negative.

I hardly think we're losing that much EXP over it. We were already aware he was in the negative, why else would he be in Low? Point of the fact is he's at least capable of it, and it can help on a minor level. This is better than Pelleas at best using Dragonfoe to chip at something in the same chapter we got Bastian.

So I read a bit fast ;;>> I thought Queen meant INSTEAD, so pardon my skimfail there.

[nflchamp]

I hardly think we're losing that much EXP over it. We were already aware he was in the negative, why else would he be in Low? Point of the fact is he's at least capable of it, and it can help on a minor level. This is better than Pelleas at best using Dragonfoe to chip at something in the same chapter we got Bastian.

1) Low tier =/= negative. Gareth is low tier, he's invariably positive. Sanaki is low tier, she's invariably positive.

2) Kyza is quickly running out of things he could be considered capable of doing. If he can't even do this without being a negative, Pelleas' ridiculous chip could place him above Kyza. (Not saying that it does, just that it could happen.)

So I read a bit fast ;;>> I thought Queen meant INSTEAD, so pardon my skimfail there.

You'll have to ask the pope for forgiveness. ;)

[grandjackal]

1) Low tier =/= negative. Gareth is low tier, he's invariably positive. Sanaki is low tier, she's invariably positive.

Well then maybe their tier list position can change, since how many people above them are capable of being positive without nulling out someone better? How many people in Low tier are actually capable of helping make things easier? I feel that Low tier should be fore people who are capable of doing some things, but are easily replaced by someone else. As to better compare to bottom tier, of which none are good at anything and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

However, even if you do disagree with me on Kyza vs Pelleas, would you at least agree that neither are bottom tier despite how ridiculously miniscule their possible utility is? Cause I feel if Kyza's gonna get thrown down there, Pelleas should follow in tow, below him or not.

2) Kyza is quickly running out of things he could be considered capable of doing. If he can't even do this without being a negative, Pelleas' ridiculous chip could place him above Kyza. (Not saying that it does, just that it could happen.)

He's capable of few things, just he also happens to be replaceable in that use, just like Pelleas, or most of the low tier garbage.

That goes for Pelleas's "ridiculous chip" as well.

You'll have to ask the pope for forgiveness. ;)

You got the number for the vatican? Last time I called was with their old number, of which apparently they were screening me because they found it sort of tresspassing of me to wear my socks to a church.

[RNG Princess]

Shinnon with provoke can draw away the attention from Ranulf btw, of course he'd suck against generals if he's using crossbows. You could give celerity to Gatrie or somebody else and have Haar use Savior to drop Ike to the top layer so he could do some more fighting.

Well then maybe their tier list position can change, since how many people above them are capable of being positive without nulling out someone better? How many people in Low tier are actually capable of helping make things easier? I feel that Low tier should be fore people who are capable of doing some things, but are easily replaced by someone else. As to better compare to bottom tier, of which none are good at anything and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

However, even if you do disagree with me on Kyza vs Pelleas, would you at least agree that neither are bottom tier despite how ridiculously miniscule their possible utility is? Cause I feel if Kyza's gonna get thrown down there, Pelleas should follow in tow, below him or not.

He's capable of few things, just he also happens to be replaceable in that use, just like Pelleas, or most of the low tier garbage.

That goes for Pelleas's "ridiculous chip" as well.

You got the number for the vatican? Last time I called was with their old number, of which apparently they were screening me because they found it sort of tresspassing of me to wear my socks to a church.

Then that should apply to Astrid and Meg as well

Edited July 10, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

Situation's already resolved (sorta), you can thank nflchamp.

[dondon151]

You got the number for the vatican? Last time I called was with their old number, of which apparently they were screening me because they found it sort of tresspassing of me to wear my socks to a church.

According to my member title, I am the pope.

Shinnon with provoke can draw away the attention from Ranulf btw, of course he'd suck against generals if he's using crossbows. You could give celerity to Gatrie or somebody else and have Haar use Savior to drop Ike to the top layer so he could do some more fighting.

Anyone can have Provoke. Granted, it costs 10 capacity, but you can still fit a 15 capacity skill on a character that has shove and not canto.

Cool fact: 3rd tier Haar has capacity for both Savior and Celerity. No point in giving it to Gatrie.

[nflchamp]

Well then maybe their tier list position can change, since how many people above them are capable of being positive without nulling out someone better? How many people in Low tier are actually capable of helping make things easier? I feel that Low tier should be fore people who are capable of doing some things, but are easily replaced by someone else. As to better compare to bottom tier, of which none are good at anything and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

However, even if you do disagree with me on Kyza vs Pelleas, would you at least agree that neither are bottom tier despite how ridiculously miniscule their possible utility is? Cause I feel if Kyza's gonna get thrown down there, Pelleas should follow in tow, below him or not.

Yeah, I don't really feel like arguing semantics about what each tier actually means the characters do. But, yeah, if Kyza drops to Bottom then Pelleas should too. The opposite isn't necessarily true, though. Pelleas could fall to Bottom without Kyza. That would, of course, require anti-Pelleas arguments and probably some more pro-Kyza arguments.

(P.S. I think Kyza > Pelleas, I just don't want the Kyza 3-4 argument to feel like we're praising Kyza here for some amazing preformance.)

[Renall]

Just about any tiger can use the "can take Resolve and be okay" argument, though Kyza pretty much doesn't compare in any capacity to Mordy or Muarim, but that's already basically reflected in tiering.

Still, if you did put Resolve on Kyza, he'd at least be kinda okay. And he takes stat boosters for double if you're dumb enough to use one on him. I don't see Pelleas really doing anything comparable with similar favoritism, and Kyza is crushing him on availability. Neither's going to the endgame, so...

[Anouleth]

What exactly do you mean by 'kinda okay'? 33AS is good, but Kyza still only has 30ATK, which gets real old real fast, and he's taking Resolve away from Mordecai. Pelleas doesn't take any resources, but he can help out in 4-2 to clean up reinforcements and in 4-5 to kill stuff at the start and weaken with Fenrir. There are other ways to kill the 3-4 Sages - Soren can if you drop him there for enemy phase, Shinon can with the Crossbow, a person with pass can.

[dondon151]

Kyza isn't also ridiculously durable like Mordecai is. Assuming that he is at the absolute maximum range of Resolve (27 HP), he is 3HKO'd by 30 atk halbs and 2HKO'd by 34 atk warriors in 3-4, while Mordecai at 28 HP is tinked by enemies with 32 atk or less and is 14RKO'd by 34 atk.

[Colonel M]

30 Mt vs. 38 Mt is pretty noticeable too. 38 Mt cleanly ORKOes 3-4's Warriors and misses one Halberdier. It also does better vs. Generals (2RKO with Mordecai vs. a 4RKO). I wouldn't really go far with assuming Resolve on Kyza; sounds really bad.

[Ether]

30 Mt vs. 38 Mt is pretty noticeable too. 38 Mt cleanly ORKOes 3-4's Warriors and misses one Halberdier. It also does better vs. Generals (2RKO with Mordecai vs. a 4RKO). I wouldn't really go far with assuming Resolve on Kyza; sounds really bad.

Pfft,what else are you gonna do with the 2-E Energy Drop,3-5 Energy Drop,2-E DracoShield,and 3-1 Seraph Robe?Kyza,obviously.

[Colonel M]

Pfft,what else are you gonna do with the 2-E Energy Drop,3-5 Energy Drop,2-E DracoShield,and 3-1 Seraph Robe?Kyza,obviously.

Those go to smash!Oscar / Boyd.

[RNG Princess]

Wait there are 3 resolves? or are you all taking away Tauroneo's and giving it to the GM's? I'd rather leave the DB resolve on them.

Also Kyza vs Pelleas.

Pelleas beside entering for free in 4-2 can use a Thunder forge to fix his hit issues, not the strongest of tomes but its something he could use. He also can use a left over crown for instant healing, idk if he deserves it though.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Ether]

The DB have no real need for their resolve.It won't give anyone reliable Avo in 3-6,so running around at half health is bad.In 3-12,Beorc enemies again,so no real need,especially since whoever had Paragon in 3-6 is likely a WTFkilling-Machine against these guys.In 3-13,all you need to do is kill Ike,and Sleep,Purge and a third tier unit(Most likely Jill or Nolan) can manage well enough on Ike,so long as you didn't leave Ragnell equipped.

[Shadow Mir]

The DB have no real need for their resolve.It won't give anyone reliable Avo in 3-6,so running around at half health is bad.In 3-12,Beorc enemies again,so no real need,especially since whoever had Paragon in 3-6 is likely a WTFkilling-Machine against these guys.In 3-13,all you need to do is kill Ike,and Sleep,Purge and a third tier unit(Most likely Jill or Nolan) can manage well enough on Ike,so long as you didn't leave Ragnell equipped.

Ehhh, I'm starting to think that Sleep's hit on Ike is liable to be iffy. Granted, he has crap for resistance, but...

[Ether]

Ehhh, I'm starting to think that Sleep's hit on Ike is liable to be iffy. Granted, he has crap for resistance, but...

Hmm...let's see...

No Calculation,of course....

Well,10/1 Laura has 15 Mag,and --/20 Ike has 8 Res,and 3 Stars.If supports effect staff hit,then A Meg gives her +35 Hit...(there is room to throw her in so she can support laura in most maps,afterall,and DB has a decent amount of chokepoints.)

I don't really know,since we don't have a confirmed Calc for Staff hit...

[Shadow Mir]

Hmm...let's see...

No Calculation,of course....

Well,10/1 Laura has 15 Mag,and --/20 Ike has 8 Res,and 3 Stars.If supports effect staff hit,then A Meg gives her +35 Hit...(there is room to throw her in so she can support laura in most maps,afterall,and DB has a decent amount of chokepoints.)

I don't really know,since we don't have a confirmed Calc for Staff hit...

Well, there's the fact that staff hit is affected by the wielder's proximity to the target. Though that's about all I know besides the obvious (wielder's Mag vs. target enemy's Res).

[RNG Princess]

what about Resolve on a peg, like Sigrun? Is that a good or bad thing to do. I usually leave resolve on laguz (Volug) but idk if its good for beorc or not.

[Colonel M]

Beorc can make very good use of Resolve if it's in the right hands. Though, it's usually better with Laguz primarily because they can leave themselves squishy enough to get thrown into Resolve Range, then transform to keep their durability up from dying in one or two hits. Mordecai is a pretty good example of what a good Resolve Candidate should be for Laguz. As for Beorc, it has its ups and downs. Boyd is okay at it, but he doesn't really have durability that's super awesome once he's in Resolve Range.

...If that makes some sense.

[RNG Princess]

Beorc can make very good use of Resolve if it's in the right hands. Though, it's usually better with Laguz primarily because they can leave themselves squishy enough to get thrown into Resolve Range, then transform to keep their durability up from dying in one or two hits. Mordecai is a pretty good example of what a good Resolve Candidate should be for Laguz. As for Beorc, it has its ups and downs. Boyd is okay at it, but he doesn't really have durability that's super awesome once he's in Resolve Range.

...If that makes some sense.

I'm sort of confused at this.

What I understood

Boyd has bad durability without it

Mordy has great durability without it

It fits Mordy better because he can take more hits, right?

I guess thats a no to Sigrun since Crossbows 1 shot kill her.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

I'm sort of confused at this.

What I understood

Boyd has bad durability without it

Mordy has great durability without it

It fits Mordy better because he can take more hits, right?

I guess thats a no to Sigrun since Crossbows 1 shot kill her.

But as far as I remember seeing, crossbows aren't all that common (most maps have what, somewhere from 1 to 4?).

[RNG Princess]

But as far as I remember seeing, crossbows aren't all that common (most maps have what, somewhere from 1 to 4?).

Thats true, I've only seem very few so far. I should have tried resolve on more characters than laguz only, Sigrun seems too weak to stand a few hits though. Although maybe I could use her doubling attacks and good mobility with ranged weapons?

wrath + resolve = <3

Edited July 10, 2010 by Queen_Elincia