OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

I've been using a very small team of about 6 units, practically soloing with Nolan and Sothe + some backline help before Volug joined.

[Progenitus]

Well fuck me, I don't know how to read.

But who were your 6 if the only guys you were using before Volug joined were Nolan/Sothe? This would basically just leave Zihark and prepromos (Jill too, but she's not amazing either).

[Interceptor]

You're cutting avo short then. Thanks to all the terrain this level has, Zihark only faces ~26-36 display hit against most enemies here.

There are a bunch of thickets in 1-6-1, sure, but it's not Sherwood Forest, you'll still have to adjust your lines to acvtually put Zihark in one, at the xpense of other units or at the expense of your front line. And 1-6-2 only has a lot on the Fiona path.

OK, sure, Zihark wins durability in 1-6-*, but it's his weakest Part 1 durability win. If we're counting chapters, these "two" are less than most.

Crit/astra/adept but wtv.

Notice how I already mentioned crit, and I already mentioned Adept, leaving only Astra, so "wtv". And I'm curious how Zihark is going to have Astra by Part 4 when his best two levelling chapters all 2HKO him.

My Nolan is lv 15/0 in chapter 1-7 right now, and I've been using a very small team of about 6 units, practically soloing with Nolan and Sothe + some backline help before Volug joined. He has 13 AS right now and I've only seen him double a single enemy, a weighed down cavalier in 1-6-2 if I'm not mistaken. His average is 13.6 so it's not like I'm getting RNG screwed silly or anything.

Critical thinking, Vykan: I was talking about Part 4, not Part 1. It's obvious that Nolan does not double in Part 1. This is what happens when you quote people out of context. Read it again.

Edit 2: Part 1 complete. Nolan lv 18, Zihark lv 20/6 (gave him paragon once it became available, it's not like Sothe's going to get much out of it). Maybe I just play this game too fast (13 turned 1-E while getting all the chests), but it seems to me like almost the entire DB cast is bound to be unusable in part 4 due to lack of exp gain. I'll comment on that later in more detail.

Glad to see you're finally agreeing with what I was arguing back in early 2008, now that you've actually tried it. It's only one small step now to "DB's Part 3 is just a means to an end". You remember that one?

Edited June 16, 2009 by Interceptor

[Vykan12]

But who were your 6 if the only guys you were using before Volug joined were Nolan/Sothe? This would basically just leave Zihark and prepromos (Jill too, but she's not amazing either).

I used everyone from 1-P to 1-2, though obviously Nolan did most of the work when he was around since his durability doesn’t blow. In 1-3, Micaiah 1HKOed some armors and she teamed up with Nolan on some kills. Ilyana chipped in a bit, though really it was a Sothe + Nolan show for the most part. Recruited Aran on turn 3 btw.

1-4: Wrath Micaiah, Nolan and Sothe.

1-5: Added in Volug, Micaiah hid most of the time.

1-6: Added in Zihark, Tauroneo and Jill (she was terrible even with an iron axe forge, so she only rescued Laura on occasion)

1-7: Removed Jill, added in the laguz alliance.

1-8: Added in Nailah and Rafiel.

1-E: Added in the BK.

As you can see, I was pretty much neglecting to raise any unpromoted units except for Nolan and he still didn’t manage to promote in part 1.

There are a bunch of thickets in 1-6-1, sure, but it's not Sherwood Forest, you'll still have to adjust your lines to acvtually put Zihark in one

I was moving Zihark fully while doing this (remember he’s very effective with a wind edge), and regardless, he’s still only facing 35-40 display hit without the thickets. His 2 def/8 avo lead makes a big difference, moreso than you gave credit for.

OK, sure, Zihark wins durability in 1-6-*, but it's his weakest Part 1 durability win.

Why’s that? Once both start support building, Zihark’s avo lead matters more due to 2RN skewing. Brave sword and killing edge crits also heavily reduce the amount of player phase counters he takes.

Notice how I already mentioned crit, and I already mentioned Adept, leaving only Astra, so "wtv". And I'm curious how Zihark is going to have Astra by Part 4 when his best two levelling chapters all 2HKO him.

I’m more curious how Nolan is going to get colossus (the only thing he can use to beat Zihark’s proc%) when he’s more than 5 levels behind.

Critical thinking, Vykan: I was talking about Part 4, not Part 1. It's obvious that Nolan does not double in Part 1. This is what happens when you quote people out of context. Read it again.

Nolan’s doubling issues extent beyond part 1. If Nolan is 20/1 in 3-6, he has 18 AS as opposed to 16-18 by tigers. Some cats also double him. I don’t have data for 3-12, but even a crowned Tauroneo (22 AS) cannot double much there. Then if Nolan goes into part 4 in second tier, things start getting really ugly for him.

Glad to see you're finally agreeing with what I was arguing back in early 2008, now that you've actually tried it. It's only one small step now to "DB's Part 3 is just a means to an end". You remember that one?

Of course I do, but I was talking about the unpromoted units in the DB. For instance, I cannot see any way in hell that Aran or Jill are hitting lv 20/1 if Nolan can’t.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Interceptor]

This is the last time I'm going to say this to you, Vykan: if you are going to reply to individual statements, please do it in context. Read what I write, think about it, and then reply. It does not work in any other order.

I was moving Zihark fully while doing this (remember he’s very effective with a wind edge), and regardless, he’s still only facing 35-40 display hit without the thickets. His 2 def/8 avo lead makes a big difference, moreso than you gave credit for.

The issue is not of Zihark keeping up, it's that this level is not composed entirely of thickets. That means that some people need to stand out in the sun, aka it's not necessarily a good idea to put him in there to begin with, despite the fact that he benefits more from the avoid in real terms. The other thing is that your line is going to look really weird if you contort it to allow Z to be in thickets as you move across the map. This is especially true in 1-6-2: Zihark isn't hiding in the bushes unless you send him after Fiona.

About his "big difference" lead: Nolan can be C with Eddie, Leo, Aran, etc, and I'd wager he could B with Laura or Micaiah. That means +DEF, avo, or both. Nolan may also have an HP lead over Zihark, which has the potential of making a difference when the #HKO numbers are so small in these chapters.

Why’s that? Once both start support building, Zihark’s avo lead matters more due to 2RN skewing. Brave sword and killing edge crits also heavily reduce the amount of player phase counters he takes.

How is what I said any different than this? Zihark is clearly ramping up his durability lead over Nolan as Part 1 goes on, but the point at which I raised the comparison -- chapter 1-6-* -- is where this lead is the smallest. This suggests that the lead gets bigger as the Part drags on. Which it does.

I’m more curious how Nolan is going to get colossus (the only thing he can use to beat Zihark’s proc%) when he’s more than 5 levels behind.

Let's not change the subject. I've already conceded that Nolan won't out-crit Zihark, in a post that you completely ignored (but still exists, uneditted, so go look at it). Returning to the original point, here: you mentioned crit and Adept, but I already did that in the point you replied to. This leaves only Astra. How is Zihark getting to tier 3 by Part 4? Give him all the favoritism that you like (smash apparently does not understand the impact of favoritism like Resolve, but I will assume that you do), however he's still getting obliterated in both of his highest-CEXP chapters. You can't even drag out 3-13 and farm it for levels: it's turn-limited.

Nolan’s doubling issues extent beyond part 1. If Nolan is 20/1 in 3-6, he has 18 AS as opposed to 16-18 by tigers. Some cats also double him. I don’t have data for 3-12, but even a crowned Tauroneo (22 AS) cannot double much there. Then if Nolan goes into part 4 in second tier, things start getting really ugly for him.

Again: read what I wrote. I said that "the only important thing here is whether Nolan is actually able to double initially", referring to his doubling prospects in Part 4. I was not making a judgement on whether he would or would not be able to: I was pointing out that it's a critical issue for him in a vs. Zihark comparison, as Nolan wins mt when compared to Z (STR, axes).

God only knows why you just brought up Part 3, even after I was very specific about the fact that I was referring to Part 4. The first time, you had an excuse that I was perhaps too vague, you have no such excuse the second time.

Of course I do, but I was talking about the unpromoted units in the DB. For instance, I cannot see any way in hell that Aran or Jill are hitting lv 20/1 if Nolan can’t.

How does this change the story? There are only two serious prepromotes that travel to Part 3: Zihark and Sothe. Including Volug requires a bastardization of what "promoted" means, and Tauroneo is missing in a critical chapter.

The thing about low-level units is that they don't stay X levels behind at all times even if they start that way. This is especially apparent in Hard Mode, because of the EXP penalty (it's a flat penalty, not a proportional one, which is a big deal). I wish that Dragontamer posted here on SF -- since he's a math nut and actually made a proof with a formula to calcuate this during a Nephenee vs. Oscar debate -- but such is life, I will demonstrate it as best as I can.

Suppose that Nolan is level 13, Aran is level 9, and both attack/kill a level 13 unit from 1-6. Those levels are approximate and only for demonstration purposes, adjust as needed.

In Normal mode, Nolan gets 10 for a hit, and 25 for a kill. Aran gets 12/31. Notice that Aran's EXP gain is only 20-24% higher than Nolan's. In Hard mode, all of those figures are -5. Now Nolan is 5/20, and Aran is 7/26. Notice that Aran's EXP gain is suddenly 40-30% higher, with the exact same levels. If we were to begin including units that are underneath Nolan's level, he starts losing 0.5 hit and 1.5 kill EXP for every level over: naturally this has a bigger relative impact on him than it does Aran.

The implication of this is that levelling slows down considerably, units run into an invisible ceiling as they get higher. Lower-level units are able to close the gap with higher-level units more rapidly in HM than they were in NM. For another extreme example of this, look at how crappy Titania's CEXP gain is in Part 3: her first level-up requires boss kills and/or miracles.

So, the fact that Aran and company start lower does not necessarily relegate them to the dustbin. They will always be behind Nolan given equivalent kill access (and yes, I understand that equivalent kill access is not always easy: aka Leo or Eddie), but the gap between their levels is not so large at the end as it was in the beginning.

Again: yes, I understand that if you can't get Nolan to promotion, they won't get there either, but my point remains. Personally, I think you are probably playing too quickly and relying too much on the hax units.

[Colonel M]

Also your Level 18 Nolan could've just been slapped a Master Seal and / or finish the 2 levels with BEXP (since it seems this is how you're playing it), thus Tier 2 is quite possible for him and many other units by Part III. Thing is you might lose some critical level-ups (not 100% sure, I'd have to look through it), but it's an option given to you.

Just also saying to note that you gave Zihark Paragon, which while isn't affecting the argument much, but the Tier 1 units would probably make better use of it.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

The tier 1 units can't equip Paragon, they don't have the capacity for it (except Micaiah).

[Zkirsche]

I still don't get Tanith < Marcia. Or Tanith < Heather. Could someone explain?

Also, Micaiah doesn't have any trouble getting to level 20. So no arguments about how she wants it please.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Progenitus]

Not really. She has issues getting to level 20, but the problem isn't getting there, it's that her durability is lolcrap even if you max her level out, and she's never doubling anyway, so there's no point in maxing her level.

Marcia vs Tanith is something I haven't looked into, so I won't say anything about it.

However, Heather > Tanith because Heather is your only thief in the GMs.

[Vykan12]

The issue is not of Zihark keeping up, it's that this level is not composed entirely of thickets.

It doesn’t need to be. Zihark is beating Nolan in durability if both use it, or neither do, and possibly even if Nolan does and he doesn’t. And I don’t see how he’s having trouble getting in thickets say, 30-50% of the time if he’s going west then north. Tauroneo can handle the knight reinforcements that come north-east, though he’ll need to hand axe the hammer enemy on player phase.

About his "big difference" lead: Nolan can be C with Eddie, Leo, Aran, etc, and I'd wager he could B with Laura or Micaiah.

Unless he wants to keep those partners, he needs to drop them immediately after, which hurts the speed of his new support. IIRC you cannot drop a C and make a new one in the same chapter, though I could be wrong about that.

This suggests that the lead gets bigger as the Part drags on. Which it does.

At least we’re in agreement then.

Let's not change the subject. I've already conceded that Nolan won't out-crit Zihark, in a post that you completely ignored (but still exists, uneditted, so go look at it).

Then why’d you bring up crit in the first place? You’re beginning to confuse me.

Returning to the original point, here: you mentioned crit and Adept, but I already did that in the point you replied to. This leaves only Astra. How is Zihark getting to tier 3 by Part 4? Give him all the favoritism that you like (smash apparently does not understand the impact of favoritism like Resolve, but I will assume that you do), however he's still getting obliterated in both of his highest-CEXP chapters. You can't even drag out 3-13 and farm it for levels: it's turn-limited.

I’m not seeing your point then. As much as Zihark suffers in levels, Nolan will be doing comparatively worse. Let’s say Nolan is lv 20/12 entering part 3. Now he has 24 AS, which doesn’t even allow him to double 4-2 enemies on NM. He would also only have 23 str, which is 41 with a silver poleax so he won’t even necessarily 1RKOing the stuff he doubles. Zihark’s atk would have to be outright abysmal for him to lose offence come pt 4.

Maybe you’re arguing Nolan’s so much better in part 3 that he’ll build a level lead because of it. I’m not entirely convinced of that.

Nolan lv 20/1 (B Zihark): 38 hp, 18 AS, 14 def (18 with tarvos), 80 avo

Zihark lv 20/6 (B Nolan): 32 hp, 25 AS, 14 def, 92 avo

Cat lvl 15

HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7

13 damage to Zihark, 9-13 to Nolan. Zihark is 3HKOed while Nolan is 3-5HKOed. Advantage for Nolan before considering avo.

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

15 damage to Zihark, 22-30 to Nolan. Zihark is getting 3HKOed while Nolan is being 2HKOed.

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

25 damage to Zihark, 21-25 to Nolan. Both get 2HKOed by these guys even if Nolan is using the tarvos, so Zihark wins when avo is considered.

Seems to me like Nolan’s actually losing overall durability in this level, and I haven’t even brought up resolve.

Again: read what I wrote. I said that "the only important thing here is whether Nolan is actually able to double initially", referring to his doubling prospects in Part 4.

Maybe it’s just me, but “actually able to double initially” sounds like you’re talking about Nolan’s earlygame. That’s how I interpreted it at least, though at least now we’re on the same page.

I was pointing out that it's a critical issue for him in a vs. Zihark comparison, as Nolan wins mt when compared to Z (STR, axes).

It would seem logical then to show that Nolan isn’t doubling at all in part 1, and I proceeded to show he can’t double in part 3 either. Now I’ve included evidence that he might not even be able to double in part 4. What more do you want?

God only knows why you just brought up Part 3

If I’m comparing Zihark to Nolan, every part is relevant. If Zihark doubles for all of pt 1/3 while Nolan never does, the actual impact of Nolan winning offence in part 4 is greatly lessened.

How does this change the story? There are only two serious prepromotes that travel to Part 3: Zihark and Sothe. Including Volug requires a bastardization of what "promoted" means, and Tauroneo is missing in a critical chapter.

Maybe for you, but when you compare characters, you assume both are actively used.

*stuff about exp gain*

True enough, though I don’t see where Nolan has the opportunity to catch up level-wise. 2 out of part 3 chapters have laguz enemies, which is kind to both characters, and part 4 has high exp gain even if your units are freshly third tier.

I’m assuming your point is that Nolan will go from non-doubling to doubling in a hurry thanks to fast levelling, but that also works for Zihark’s att, which means the offensive disparity between the 2 won’t be that big, certainly not large enough to ward off all of Zihark’s previous wins.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Shadow Mir]

IIRC you cannot drop a C and make a new one in the same chapter, though I could be wrong about that.

I think you can. The tutorial on supports shows Micaiah dropping an A with Sothe for a support with Edward...

[Vykan12]

Anyway, you seem to be very fixated on part 4, so let’s see how Nolan and Zihark compare. I’ll admit I’m guessing a little at their level here. Assuming Tibarn route:

Zihark lv 20/15 (A Nolan): 37 hp, 21 str, 30 AS, 16 def, 15 res, 141 avo

Silver blade/forged silver: 37 atk, 35-50 crit

Killing edge: 29 atk, 65 crit

Nolan lv 20/12 (A Zihark): 44 hp, 23 str, 24 AS, 18 def, 12 res, 133 avo

Silver poleax/forged silver: 41 atk, 18-33 crit

Killer axe: 33 atk, 48 crit

Some 4-P NM enemies (I don’t have anything else to work off of).

Halberdier lv 4 (steel lance)

Hp 40, AS 21, Def 19

Axe paladin lv 5 (steel axe)

Hp 42, As 20, Def 19

Warrior lv 4 (steel poleax)

Hp 44, As 22, Def 17

Sword gen lv 4 (silver sword)

Hp 42, As 20, Def 24

Sniper lv 5 (steel bow)

Hp 42, As 22, Def 18

Nolan is borderline ORKOing all these enemies while Zihark falls short. Key word here is borderline since these stats are underestimating these enemies pretty significantly. 4-2 enemies are a full 2-3 levels higher, and giving +1 def or +4 hp to all these enemies makes Nolan fall short of ORKOing everything.

Now for 4-5, and I’ll generously bring both to third tier:

Zihark lv 20/20/1 (A Nolan): 43 hp, 25 str, 32 AS, 19 def, 19 res, 147 avo

Silver blade/forged silver: 41 atk

Nolan lv 20/20/1 (A Zihark): 53 hp, 28 str, 29 AS, 22 def, 17 res, 148 avo

Silver poleax/forged silver: 46 atk

Tiger lv 22

Hp 57, As 18, Def 24

Both 2 round, so it’s very debatable (more crit + astra vs colossus).

Cat lv 21

Hp 47, As 26, Def 18

Zihark doubles, Nolan doesn’t.

I won’t go into 4-E, though you need like 55 atk to ORKO generals consistently there, and Zihark has wyrmslayers for 4-E-3. Moreover. Nolan probably won’t be able to double spirits or auras while Zihark will.

It’s pretty damn arguable who’s winning offensively in part 4, and both have overkill durability there (lol >140 avo). I stand by my original convictions.

[Interceptor]

It doesn’t need to be.[...]

I did not say that it needed to be the case, I just pointed out the limitations of your argument for Zihark's avoid in 1-6. I was not removing it, I was mitigating it.

Unless he wants to keep those partners, he needs to drop them immediately after, which hurts the speed of his new support. IIRC you cannot drop a C and make a new one in the same chapter, though I could be wrong about that.

You can, in fact, drop a C and make a new one in the same chapter, as long as you have the points for it. You're capped at C, though: no progress towards a B except what you get from going forward. Generally the usefulness of this is for temporary supports. I do this all the time with Nephenee/Brom.

At least we’re in agreement then.

We've been in agreement for quite some time on this point. I'm glad that you've recognized it now.

Then why’d you bring up crit in the first place? You’re beginning to confuse me.

I made a mistake, and corrected myself once I calculated everything out. You have still, apparently, not read my correction.

I’m not seeing your point then. As much as Zihark suffers in levels, Nolan will be doing comparatively worse. Let’s say Nolan is [...]

No, let's not, since that wasn't my point. I was solely talking about Zihark being tier 3 at the start of Part 4. Fin. Done. Anything that you assume beyond this is speculation, changing the subject, or a tangential point entirely.

Maybe you’re arguing Nolan’s so much better in part 3 that he’ll build a level lead because of it. I’m not entirely convinced of that.

I am not. Stop assuming.

[...] and I haven’t even brought up resolve.

Please feel free to. I missed out on all the fun this weekend since I was playing Cross Edge and didn't feel like arguing on the Interbutts, and I'd relish the opportunity to explain exactly how stupid it is to leave Resolve with the DB in general, and Zihark in particular.

Maybe it’s just me, but “actually able to double initially” sounds like you’re talking about Nolan’s earlygame. That’s how I interpreted it at least, though at least now we’re on the same page.

That's because you quoted me out of context: the containing paragraph was clearly talking about Part 4. Also, I explained that it was Part 4, and you once again misinterpreted it, which is pretty ridiculous.

It would seem logical then to show that Nolan isn’t doubling at all in part 1, and I proceeded to show he can’t double in part 3 either. Now I’ve included evidence that he might not even be able to double in part 4. What more do you want?

I want you to understand that you were replying to an observation of what was critical, and not an assertion of whether Nolan could or could not double. Maybe English is not your first language, I have no idea, but every time we get into a discussion -- every goddamn fucking time -- you parse meaning from my words that does not even exist.

Realize that this:

"Whether Nolan can double or not in Part 4 is critical"

is different from this:

"Nolan can double reliably in Part 4"

and this:

"Nolan cannot double reliably in Part 4".

If I’m comparing Zihark to Nolan, every part is relevant. If Zihark doubles for all of pt 1/3 while Nolan never does, the actual impact of Nolan winning offence in part 4 is greatly lessened.

This is absurdity. I asked "why did you bring up Part 3?" not because Part 3 is not in some way relevant to some point in some argument somewhere, but because...

*channelling smash*

I VERY SPECIFICALLY CLARIFIED THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT PART 4. YOU RESPONDED WITH FIGURES FROM PART 3. CAN YOU READ, SIR?

*exhale*

This is deja vu all over again of that thread on GF where you didn't understand what "largely" meant even after I explained it.

Maybe for you, but when you compare characters, you assume both are actively used.

What. does. this. have. to. do. with. what. I. said.

True enough, though I don’t see where Nolan has the opportunity to catch up level-wise. 2 out of part 3 chapters have laguz enemies, which is kind to both characters, and part 4 has high exp gain even if your units are freshly third tier.

I am glad that you understand my example of how low-level characters catch up to higher-level ones faster in HM than in NM, but it had nothing at all to do with Nolan's level relative to Zihark. It had to do with Aran's level (and Jill's by extension) relative to Nolan's. This is a very important distinction.

I’m assuming your point is [...]

Let's stop doing that. Assuming, that is. It has gotten you nowhere but irrelevant tangents, no matter how correct or incorrect that they are in a void.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

I still don't get Tanith < Marcia. Or Tanith < Heather. Could someone explain?

Also, Micaiah doesn't have any trouble getting to level 20. So no arguments about how she wants it please.

Marcia has the chapters before Tanith joins where she is useful, not your best unit but useful. She also usually has a significant AS lead over Tanith 2-3 AS most of the time.

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Int, I don't care if I your post was about bees and I replied about pencils. I've offered justification for Zihark > Nolan in one way or another, all I care about at this point is who is in agreement or not. If you think I inflated levels, or should've considered a seraph robe on Nolan, etc, feel free to point it out.

[Florete]

I still don't get Tanith < Marcia. Or Tanith < Heather. Could someone explain?

Not sure about Heather, but I do believe Marcia > Tanith was covered in my debate with Cynthia, which has unfortunately been lost. The basic gist is Marcia's availability and AS advantages outweighing Tanith's affinity and strength.

[nflchamp]

Not sure about Heather, but I do believe Marcia > Tanith was covered in my debate with Cynthia, which has unfortunately been lost. The basic gist is Marcia's availability and AS advantages outweighing Tanith's affinity and strength.

When is Marcia getting a serious AS advantage? She's lower level than Calill and pretty much as bad when she joins. The only thing she has going for her is an extra few chapters. 2-P sucks for EXP. 2-3 is Sieze, not Rout. Marcia is bad in 2-E, despite the fact she can use ledges. And doesn't really have a lot going for her is 3-9 as far as EXP gain is concerned. Sure, she has some small utility in 2-3 and 3-9 due to flying, but she still doesn't do well enough to get a ton of EXP.

Edited June 16, 2009 by nflchamp

[-Cynthia-]

When is Marcia getting a serious AS advantage? She's lower level than Calill and pretty much as bad when she joins. The only thing she has going for her is an extra 2 chapters. And 2-P isn't exactly EXP rich. 2-3 is Seize, not Rout, so I don't see how she'll get much more from there.

65% speed growth as compared to 40% catches up after a while. Level 10 Marcia has the same speed as base level Tanith anyway, it's not an unreasonable level given she can access Paragon for 3-9.

[Progenitus]

Tanith can't really leverage her affinity, since not only does she have to build it up from scratch (it'll be like, C after 3-E is completed, then a B before 4-E, and then maybe an A by the dragon chapter), but has to actually find someone. I suppose a hawk wouldn't mind waiting around supportless until 3-11. But still, it takes time for the support to build up, and only until then is it even a debate (until Tanith can clearly win durability, since Marcia has the offense lead).

On the other hand, Marcia's AS lead is never really that large. She'll be like, 20/11 at best entering 3-11, which puts her spd at ~24 when Tanith has 23. Then she caps at 27 while Tanith will probably have about 24-25 at the time, but then Tanith promotes right after that and jumps to 26-27. Then Marcia promotes and gets 29 when Tanith will have ~28, and by 4-E Marcia will probably have 31-32 when Tanith has 29-30.

Of course it only takes a small AS difference to matter, since IIRC with those AS values, Marcia will be fairly borderline at doubling, which means Tanith is almost never doubling.

[Jaybee]

Also, most of the GMs are either taken or have been dumped. Tanith's best partner is probably Sigrun. They both won't come to endgame anyway and Sigrun needs that Def and Avo. So does Tanith.

[Shadow Mir]

Also, most of the GMs are either taken or have been dumped. Tanith's best partner is probably Sigrun. They both won't come to endgame anyway and Sigrun needs that Def and Avo. So does Tanith.

Aside from the fact that Sigrun sucks and supporting Sigrun effectively locks Tanith to Micaiah's route...

[Jaybee]

I guess that means that the desert isn't important...

[-Cynthia-]

Tanith should probably go Micaiah's route anyway so it's not a big issue. Plus, we have to field Sigrun, so her sucking doesn't mean she's not being fielded.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

No comments on Zihark > Nolan?

I'm pretty sure I convincingly showed that Zihark beats him in offence and durability whenever both are around, the only arguable points being durability vs 3-6/3-13 tigers and offence in part 4. Nolan has 5 chapters where Zihark isn't around and he's either best or second best, but I think the advantages of that are being exaggerated slightly. 1-1 and 1-2 are very short, Sothe becomes a failsafe mechanism when he joins and then you additionally get Volug in 1-5, so it's not like Nolan is being as h3x as the BK in 1-9.

[Progenitus]

I thought everyone knew Zihark > Nolan.