OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

S strike is difficult with Kyza, though. I got S strike on the hawks at the tail end of 3-11 going at maximum speed, and Int told me that he didn't get S strike on Ulki even into 4-4. Heck, I didn't even get Ranulf to S strike after 3-E, and Ranulf has the same availability and generally superior parameters (you can blame this one on the lack of canto). Also, the more beorc units that you're using in conjunction with Kyza, the more difficult it is for him to gain strike, since he's competing for combat opportunities.

Edited August 22, 2010 by dondon151

[Integrity]

Small correction for the Kyza arguments:

He, along with I think the rest of the beasts, can't be deployed in 3-5. Not exactly his strong point, but there it is.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Integrity

[eclipse]

alfredo why dont u just use muti quote, i didnt read any of your posts cause u dont quote.

1) Can't you use prper grammar? No offence intended, I know mine hasn't been perfect either.

2) I don't know how to use the multi quote.

3) What is quoting or putting italics having to with reading posts?

Look at the bottom right corner of any post. Hit Reply, and you'll get a post like this.

See the toolbar above the text box with all the styles and whatnot? Look at the second row, at the icon that looks like a speech bubble (it's third from the right). That is the Quote button. This is useful when replying to multiple people. Copy-paste what you want to quote, highlight it in the text box, and then click on the speech bubble button.

It should make things easier to read, so I can figure out where this chain of arguments is going.

[alfredo094]

^Thanks.

Let's slow down a little bit here. Nobody is suggesting that Titania get the Secret Book, the Dracoshield, the Talisman, and the Speedwing. However, Titania-that-doubles is so absurdly useful and powerful that she is without a doubt, the best choice for all of these things since she can use it to ORKO with 9 move. Chances are, she will only need the Wing to double since her natural growth is already pretty high and she will cap strength quickly so we can BEXP her. We will probably give her the Wing that Ilyana brings over from the Dawn Brigade in 3-2.

For a start, it should be understood that transfer characters exist in a vacuum. The only time transfers exist on Ike is when we are specifically discussing Ike(T).

What's more, Ike (T) is on another plane of existence as far as mere mortals like Titania are concerned. He does not really need stat boosters, or BEXP, or anything, and the only thing he wants more of is strength, which he can't have. Regular Ike can take the 3-9 Speedwing if he gets speed screwed, and in the short term he's not really concerned.

While Mia can get a steel forge, she should reserve it only for tough enemies such as Generals. I don't think she can afford to use it against the scrub Halbs. She doesn't even 2HKO much. A level 10 Mia with a support has 33ATK with that forge. Halberdiers have 37HP and 19DEF roughly in 3-3. So she doesn't even come close to one-rounding. She needs Adept to have a decent chance, and even then, it's only that - a chance. In comparison, a level 18 Titania with a Speedwing has 41ATK and 24AS with a Steel Poleaxe, so she kills in one round.

3-5 is almost entirely Paladins with awful speed. Titania doubles them all. It's not until 3-8 that Titania has issues, against the Warriors that go up to 22AS.

And the fact is that Titania has the best offense in the team against Generals, tied with Haar. She kicks Mia's ass against everything else as well. All Mia actually wins against are the 22AS Warriors and the Swordmasters, and Titania will get the Warriors post-promotion anyway.

Actually, it's brought over from the Crimean Royal Knights, who can get it in Bargains.

I won't even bother arguing. The only point that I have is why Mia cannot use her forge on everyone, but that's pathetic considering everything you said.

[dondon151]

I won't even bother arguing. The only point that I have is why Mia cannot use her forge on everyone, but that's pathetic considering everything you said.

Honestly, you have enough cash to use Mia's forge on everything. But really, 40 uses lasts a long time. It doesn't solve her problem of never cleanly ORKOing anything except for SMs and sages, but 3HKOing and +15 crit on top of her base certainly help alleviate that.

[Narga_Rocks]

You said "he." When there are 3 possible antecedents for that pronoun, pardon me for being defensive in the case that it referred to me (note the usage of "if").

I was suggesting that there are only 2 possible "antecedents", since there were only two names in the paragraph. Whatever.

I see what you mean regarding the filler characters. In which case, yes, don't use Alan Jr.

But that's the thing. That would make things optimal deployment only. In some fe games, this results in a lot of units never even being deployed. In this game, for example, Kyza would need to be adjacent to Lyre, and anyone similar would need to follow. It is the opinion of many that this is a bad system for a tier list because it doesn't show what many units are capable of in general.

What is there to discuss? I believe I've made my point painfully clear - consider the optimal, and screw the unoptimal. Isn't that what we do already regarding stat boosters, promotion items, and forges?

Those are different. Even if Kyza is part of the team, there is no reason to go and give him stuff that will slow us down even further. But you may as well at least take a look at what he can do for us if he's used compared to what others do for us. Otherwise you might as well have a tier list like this:

top

high

mid

low

free deployment only

Never used (everyone in here is equal)

And be done with it. Actually, you can probably remove "low". It's kinda boring looking. I suppose you'd like it, but I'm not sure everyone else would. You seem to be attempting to push this list towards that system, whereas a bunch of other people would really rather not. That seems like a perfect reason to make your own list.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

But that's the thing. That would make things optimal deployment only. In some fe games, this results in a lot of units never even being deployed. In this game, for example, Kyza would need to be adjacent to Lyre, and anyone similar would need to follow. It is the opinion of many that this is a bad system for a tier list because it doesn't show what many units are capable of in general.

It is also the opinion of many that any number of our current assumptions are incorrect. It's good that SF is a tight-knit community and that I can probably list by name all of the frequent contributors to the tier list discussion, but if you took any random member from any other FE community (like, I don't know, General Banzai), they will immediately find 10 things wrong with it. Since when was a tier list supposed to be democratic, anyway? I thought it was supposed to represent the truth, not to appease the greatest amount of people.

Those are different. Even if Kyza is part of the team, there is no reason to go and give him stuff that will slow us down even further. But you may as well at least take a look at what he can do for us if he's used compared to what others do for us. Otherwise you might as well have a tier list like this:

Wait. Why is it necessary to draw a distinction in resource allocation between a deployment slot and a stat booster? You said in the first quoted paragraph that optimal deployment is a "bad system... because it doesn't show what many units are capable of in general." By that same token, optimal resource allocation is a bad system because it doesn't, in this example, show what Kyza is capable of. Oh, look, Kyza can double generic dudes up to 3-11 at base with a Speedwings and can 2HKO warriors and snipers in 3-8 with 2 Energy Drops and a str proc. I really don't understand how you can so nonchalantly excuse this double standard.

Edited August 23, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

It is also the opinion of many that any number of our current assumptions are incorrect. It's good that SF is a tight-knit community and that I can probably list by name all of the frequent contributors to the tier list discussion, but if you took any random member from any other FE community (like, I don't know, General Banzai), they will immediately find 10 things wrong with it. Since when was a tier list supposed to be democratic, anyway? I thought it was supposed to represent the truth, not to appease the greatest amount of people.

But what is the truth, anyway? It appears more like you want the dondon way than some universal truth. Oh, you may think you are fighting towards some kind of universal truth, but really it is just what you seem to think is true. The point, however, is that many of the contributors have indicated a desire to stay away from optimal deployment and at least consider, even if only a little, what units are capable of when deployed. You don't seem to want to do this. Hence, make your own list. If RFoF doesn't want to do it your way, and I don't want to do it your way, clearly your way ain't happening on this thread.

Wait. Why is it necessary to draw a distinction in resource allocation between a deployment slot and a stat booster? You said in the first quoted paragraph that optimal deployment is a "bad system... because it doesn't show what many units are capable of in general." By that same token, optimal resource allocation is a bad system because it doesn't, in this example, show what Kyza is capable of. Oh, look, Kyza can double generic dudes up to 3-11 at base with a Speedwings and can 2HKO warriors and snipers in 3-8 with 2 Energy Drops and a str proc. I really don't understand how you can so nonchalantly excuse this double standard.

I gave qualifiers you ignored. When he's used, we aren't going to be stupid about what we do with him. If I'm using him, he'll poke at things and kill what he can because I don't want to go any slower. But since we are tiering him and want to know how he performs relative to other units, you kinda need to, oh i dunno, USE HIM. It isn't a double standard to try to not use him badly.

[dondon151]

But what is the truth, anyway? It appears more like you want the dondon way than some universal truth. Oh, you may think you are fighting towards some kind of universal truth, but really it is just what you seem to think is true.

I'm flattered that you think it's the "dondon way," but it's really just a way dictated by a very basic economic principle.

The point, however, is that many of the contributors have indicated a desire to stay away from optimal deployment and at least consider, even if only a little, what units are capable of when deployed. You don't seem to want to do this. Hence, make your own list. If RFoF doesn't want to do it your way, and I don't want to do it your way, clearly your way ain't happening on this thread.

Now hold on a second. I believe that we've clearly established at some point that a tier list is not supposed to be democratic, nor is it supposed to be under private ownership.

I gave qualifiers you ignored. When he's used, we aren't going to be stupid about what we do with him. If I'm using him, he'll poke at things and kill what he can because I don't want to go any slower. But since we are tiering him and want to know how he performs relative to other units, you kinda need to, oh i dunno, USE HIM. It isn't a double standard to try to not use him badly.

What qualifiers? Your only qualifier is that if you shoot yourself in one foot, then you don't have to shoot yourself in the other foot. But really, if there's nothing stopping you from shooting yourself in the first foot, then why is there some qualifier that prevents you from shooting yourself in the second foot?

As for having to use Kyza to tier him, I'm perfectly fine with that. Just keep in mind that every map that you use Kyza on invokes an opportunity cost greater than his normal profit. You just might as well not give him a deployment slot at all (which, by the way, is the exact same logic used to deny stat boosters to Kyza - just sayin').

Edited August 23, 2010 by dondon151

[Naglfar]

lots of stuff

Okay, I used the wrong example there. But the idea is the same. You're claiming it's effortless to go onto the internet and copy/memorize someone else's strategy, which isn't entirely true. Still, it sounds fine. I'll accept that.

Opportunity cost is just something in X+20's favour I forgot to mention. Just remember that deployment is up to the player, not you. You need to get over your disdain for things that aren't perfect.

also nagl, how exactly does getting aran help us??

Don't ask me, I don't know.

[Fenrir]

alfredo why dont u just use muti quote, i didnt read any of your posts cause u dont quote.

1) Can't you use prper grammar? No offence intended, I know mine hasn't been perfect either.

dunno wat i did wrong but u spelled proper wrong XD even tho it was typo its still ironic.

Don't ask me, I don't know.

lmao...

[Naglfar]

dunno wat i did wrong but u spelled proper wrong XD even tho it was typo its still ironic.

Does this look like proper English to you?

[Narga_Rocks]

Now hold on a second. I believe that we've clearly established at some point that a tier list is not supposed to be democratic, nor is it supposed to be under private ownership.

So your great solution is to change the rules to something that alienates the only two people willing and able to make changes to the list? End result: nothing ever changes because neither of us care anymore and thus you have to make another thread if you want units to move.

Isn't it great how in the end the only option remaining to you is the one I suggested in the first place?

Edited August 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[alfredo094]

dunno wat i did wrong but u spelled proper wrong XD even tho it was typo its still ironic

...

It's not even a typo. I dunno why, but recently some of the keys of my keyboard are getting stuck.

[Soren37]

Alright, I need to post here to get my mind off of things, and we need another agenda update. I really hope not, as we've reached the maximum line limit in the signature.

Anywho, I really want to see Rolf(T) drop. Why, you may ask? He contributes very little to the Greil Mercenaries, and his achievements are far out-classed and out-stripped by Shinon, the main competitor for the Double Bow and the Endgame spot.

Now then, we'll look at their base level first. I can't remember all of the weapons that they have equipped, but I know that Rolf has Rolf's Bow, while Shinon has a Steel Bow and Killer Bow (I hope I got that right). To follow the transfer rules, Rolf has received his Transfer, while Shinon has not.

Level 1 Rolf(T) with Rolf's Bow

HP-32 Atk-27 Hit-138 AS-21 Avo-55 Crit-10 Ddg-13 DEF-13 RES-9

Level 13 Shinon(N) with Steel Bow

HP-43 Atk-31 Hit-161 AS-24 Avo-63 Crit-14 Ddg-15 DEF-20 RES-14

The first thing we notice is that Shinon has a 12 level lead, which makes him easier to train. He also starts two points off of capping HP, SKL, and SPD. He'll cap SPD at level --/17, which means you can BEXP abuse up STR, LCK, and DEF. If all goes well, then DEF will cap at --/20, STR will be one point off, LCK...who cares, and he has a chance of capping RES, depending on how much Anna loves you.

Another stake in the casket for Rofl(T) is that he can't get the magic 34 SPD for Endgame until 20/15, which is way too high. Shinon can get this at the much more feasible level of 20/11.

We'll pull up a Soldier, a Swordmaster, a Warrior, a Fire Sage, and a General from 3-P.

1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)

HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 20, Crit 21, Ddg 13

1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)

HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire)

HP 31, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

Rolf can only double the General and the Sage. He does 4*2 damage to the General at 89 displayed Hit with a 0% chance of a crit. He can do 15*2 damage to the Sage, which doesn't ORKO him. In return, Rolf is taking 16 damage at a 72% displayed Hit with 0% crit. Against the other 3, he'll deal 7 damage at 81 disp. to the SM, 12 damage at 84 disp. to the Warrior, and 9 damage at 84 disp. He's taking potshots.

What about Shinon? He doubles everything but the Swordmaster, but his damage is nothing to sneeze at. He'll do 16, 16*2, 13*2, 8*2, and 19*2 damage to all the enemies (in order). He'll have 100% Hit against all the enemies, including the SM. Even though he's 2RKOing, you can pair him up with someone like Oscar, Ike, or Mia and then you have a dead enemy right there.

Now here's where we hit a conundrum. In HM, you only focus on the units that you want to bring for Endgame. Seeing as there is only one Double Bow, and two archers that we're arguing, this makes things difficult. We'll skip ahead to Endgame, assuming both have been used equally, but that Rolf was never babied or given BEXP abuse. We'll say that Shinon is at Level 20/6, which means that Rolf would be around level 14.

I won't even do a comparison. Rolf isn't winning any stats, which means his combat just flat out falls in comparison to the others. I don't see a reasonable way to get him up to the same level as Shinon without sacrificing too many turn counts or babying him.

But Soren, you say, what about other characters? Surely Rolf(T) deserves another comparison to a character that isn't such a higher level than him!

Fine. We will. Except for one problem. There is only one character that stands with him in terms of levels. Whatever Rolf does is <<<<< than Mist's healing.

In fact, Rofl(T) is above Mist(N), Marcia(N), and Heather. Three characters with handy utilities, and somehow Rolf(T)'s chip is better than that.

Therefore, I would advise a drop. Rolf(T) should be slotted somewhere in with Kieran(T) or Mak(T). I would like to drop him lower, but below that are Tanith(N), Calill(N/T), and Soren(N). Despite my hard-on for magic, Rolf(T) is also useful for taking down the odd Peg Knight that you see in 4-1, which is handy. He can shove Mist, Mia, Soren, Reyson, and untransformed Janaff.

I'm now open to your fire.

[RNG Princess]

Let's not go that far. Kyza has a 35% speed growth with a fairly low base level. He levels about as fast as base Titania, for example. With a speedwing, he only needs three levels to gain another point and be on 28, which gets him through early Part 4, and another point for 30 speed which covers all of Part 4 except 4-4 is also fairly easy to get. Hell, once he gets S Strike, he's on par with the Hawks.

He requires too much attention and pricey-ness though and thats just to become decent and he does get in a way of things.

Without the speedwing he's like Oscar at base with a steel lance minus the chance of doubling, minus the canto, minus 2-range, minus not being able to be forged a weapon. I doubt having a unit dealing that amount of damage with never doubling is considered beneficial to the team for Part 3.

He's also got some smaller issues like being weak against mages, competing for deployment slots, competing for kills(unless chipping is gaining him fast levels), maybe competing for bexp, the need of olivi grass.

With the speedwing he turns into a slighty weaker Ranulf, which can be helpful at least but it costs so much potential to the speedwing's use, I don't really have to explain much more I think.

However now I kind of understand why he's not in Bottom tier ;) because he can:

1: At least offer some combat without being instantly KO'ed like Fiona or Meg.

2: Doesn't always rob a deployment slot like Oliver (3-10 and 4-3 IMO besides shove-botting is better than a uneeded healer for Endgame).

3: Deals better damage than Astrid's chipping and Lyre's tinking.

4: Has better hit than Pelleas.

I'm still a little 50/50 on him belonging in bottom tier, but if optimal deployment wins then he definitely belongs in bottom tier.

I personally think a portion of optimal deployment should be considered, but idk how much of it.

BTW can Kyza use wrath? I'm sure that could help his combat.

One more edit. What I mean about being 50/50 about Kyza moving or not to bottom tier I'm just sort of confused of what is valued higher.

His chance to deal damage to enemies or the contributions Astrid, Fiona, and Meg do?

Edited August 23, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

Alright, I need to post here to get my mind off of things, and we need another agenda update. I really hope not, as we've reached the maximum line limit in the signature.

Anywho, I really want to see Rolf(T) drop. Why, you may ask? He contributes very little to the Greil Mercenaries, and his achievements are far out-classed and out-stripped by Shinon, the main competitor for the Double Bow and the Endgame spot.

Now then, we'll look at their base level first. I can't remember all of the weapons that they have equipped, but I know that Rolf has Rolf's Bow, while Shinon has a Steel Bow and Killer Bow (I hope I got that right). To follow the transfer rules, Rolf has received his Transfer, while Shinon has not.

Level 1 Rolf(T) with Rolf's Bow

HP-32 Atk-27 Hit-138 AS-21 Avo-55 Crit-10 Ddg-13 DEF-13 RES-9

Level 13 Shinon(N) with Steel Bow

HP-43 Atk-31 Hit-161 AS-24 Avo-63 Crit-14 Ddg-15 DEF-20 RES-14

The first thing we notice is that Shinon has a 12 level lead, which makes him easier to train. He also starts two points off of capping HP, SKL, and SPD. He'll cap SPD at level --/17, which means you can BEXP abuse up STR, LCK, and DEF. If all goes well, then DEF will cap at --/20, STR will be one point off, LCK...who cares, and he has a chance of capping RES, depending on how much Anna loves you.

Another stake in the casket for Rofl(T) is that he can't get the magic 34 SPD for Endgame until 20/15, which is way too high. Shinon can get this at the much more feasible level of 20/11.

We'll pull up a Soldier, a Swordmaster, a Warrior, a Fire Sage, and a General from 3-P.

1x Swordmaster lvl 7 (Steel Sword)

HP 33, Atk 25, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 57, DEF 15, RES 20, Crit 21, Ddg 13

1x Warrior lvl 8 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 8 (Javelin)

HP 36, Atk 26, AS 20, Hit 118, Avo 53, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Lance General lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 18, Hit 131, Avo 49, DEF 23, RES 12, Crit 9, Ddg 15

1x Fire Sage lvl 6 (Elfire)

HP 31, Atk 25, AS 17, Hit 127, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 15, Crit 8, Ddg 10

Rolf can only double the General and the Sage. He does 4*2 damage to the General at 89 displayed Hit with a 0% chance of a crit. He can do 15*2 damage to the Sage, which doesn't ORKO him. In return, Rolf is taking 16 damage at a 72% displayed Hit with 0% crit. Against the other 3, he'll deal 7 damage at 81 disp. to the SM, 12 damage at 84 disp. to the Warrior, and 9 damage at 84 disp. He's taking potshots.

What about Shinon? He doubles everything but the Swordmaster, but his damage is nothing to sneeze at. He'll do 16, 16*2, 13*2, 8*2, and 19*2 damage to all the enemies (in order). He'll have 100% Hit against all the enemies, including the SM. Even though he's 2RKOing, you can pair him up with someone like Oscar, Ike, or Mia and then you have a dead enemy right there.

Now here's where we hit a conundrum. In HM, you only focus on the units that you want to bring for Endgame. Seeing as there is only one Double Bow, and two archers that we're arguing, this makes things difficult. We'll skip ahead to Endgame, assuming both have been used equally, but that Rolf was never babied or given BEXP abuse. We'll say that Shinon is at Level 20/6, which means that Rolf would be around level 14.

I won't even do a comparison. Rolf isn't winning any stats, which means his combat just flat out falls in comparison to the others. I don't see a reasonable way to get him up to the same level as Shinon without sacrificing too many turn counts or babying him.

But Soren, you say, what about other characters? Surely Rolf(T) deserves another comparison to a character that isn't such a higher level than him!

Fine. We will. Except for one problem. There is only one character that stands with him in terms of levels. Whatever Rolf does is <<<<< than Mist's healing.

In fact, Rofl(T) is above Mist(N), Marcia(N), and Heather. Three characters with handy utilities, and somehow Rolf(T)'s chip is better than that.

Therefore, I would advise a drop. Rolf(T) should be slotted somewhere in with Kieran(T) or Mak(T). I would like to drop him lower, but below that are Tanith(N), Calill(N/T), and Soren(N). Despite my hard-on for magic, Rolf(T) is also useful for taking down the odd Peg Knight that you see in 4-1, which is handy. He can shove Mist, Mia, Soren, Reyson, and untransformed Janaff.

I'm now open to your fire.

Yeah, we are aware he's kinda bad in 3-P and 3-1. That was never in question. He is a tier below Shinon. The problem is that Rolf can achieve an eerily similar performance in 3-2 outside the boss and he's basically tying from 3-4 until promotion and then falls a bit behind in AS as they progress.

The only way to make a convincing argument that he deserves to fall a lot (rather than to near the top of mid or something) is to show that he can't level fast enough. You've focused on 3-P and 3-1 and endgame, and it's not like those weren't already considered before placing Rolf(T) where he is.

And you didn't even take a look at Rolf with a steel bow. I mean, outside the general Shinon is undeniably better off wielding the killer bow for 29 atk (still 4HKOs or better on things and still 2HKOs what the steel bow 2HKOs) so there is no real reason not to let Rolf have it (unless you really want Shinon's 8x2 rather than 6x2 with much better crit and causing Rolf to be stuck at 4x2 rather than 6x2 (or 4 rather than 6 against that which he doesn't double). I mean, you can even access the base before this chapter so what's the problem?

[Florete]

Narga said it well, but allow me to add my own touch.

It is also the opinion of many that any number of our current assumptions are incorrect. It's good that SF is a tight-knit community and that I can probably list by name all of the frequent contributors to the tier list discussion, but if you took any random member from any other FE community (like, I don't know, General Banzai), they will immediately find 10 things wrong with it. Since when was a tier list supposed to be democratic, anyway? I thought it was supposed to represent the truth, not to appease the greatest amount of people.

This is not 2 + 2 = 4. The people decide what the truth is as a group. That is why the topic is open for discussion. If we all decided we wanted to rank characters based on how fun they are to use, it might end up being extremely flawed, but we'd create rules to use for that and make our list as accurate as possible. There is no inherent "truth" to how units should be tiered, not your way and not my way. It is what we want it to be.

I've been asked the question before (referring to your "I thought it was supposed to represent the truth, not to appease the greatest amount of people."), and my answer was the following: If I didn't enjoy the way things were being done in tier lists anymore, I'd stop posting. So yes, it is, in fact, to appease the greatest amount of people, just not in a "we all like Mia so let's put her in Top tier" way. It is in a "Yeah, we all think that can work, make sense, and be fun" way.

[Anouleth]

Alright, I need to post here to get my mind off of things, and we need another agenda update. I really hope not, as we've reached the maximum line limit in the signature.

Anywho, I really want to see Rolf(T) drop. Why, you may ask? He contributes very little to the Greil Mercenaries, and his achievements are far out-classed and out-stripped by Shinon, the main competitor for the Double Bow and the Endgame spot.

Congratulations, Rolf is being outperformed by Shinon. I guess we should accordingly place Rolf in say, the tier below Shinon, Upper Mid.

Now then, we'll look at their base level first. I can't remember all of the weapons that they have equipped, but I know that Rolf has Rolf's Bow, while Shinon has a Steel Bow and Killer Bow (I hope I got that right). To follow the transfer rules, Rolf has received his Transfer, while Shinon has not.

Give Rolf the Steel and Shinon the Killer. Duh.

Level 1 Rolf(T) with Rolf's Bow

HP-32 Atk-27 Hit-138 AS-21 Avo-55 Crit-10 Ddg-13 DEF-13 RES-9

Level 13 Shinon(N) with Steel Bow

HP-43 Atk-31 Hit-161 AS-24 Avo-63 Crit-14 Ddg-15 DEF-20 RES-14

The first thing we notice is that Shinon has a 12 level lead, which makes him easier to train. He also starts two points off of capping HP, SKL, and SPD. He'll cap SPD at level --/17, which means you can BEXP abuse up STR, LCK, and DEF. If all goes well, then DEF will cap at --/20, STR will be one point off, LCK...who cares, and he has a chance of capping RES, depending on how much Anna loves you.

And he's also going to gain experience about half as fast due to that level lead. What's more, you didn't even put in their innate crit bonus from their level.

Another stake in the casket for Rofl(T) is that he can't get the magic 34 SPD for Endgame until 20/15, which is way too high. Shinon can get this at the much more feasible level of 20/11.

If Rolf takes a Seraph Robe in tier 3, he can cap HP early and BEXP his speed. Simple.

blah blah blah 3-P blah blah blah

Thing is, everyone know Rolf sucks in 3-P and 3-1. Question is, can he dig himself out of his rut? He only needs 4 levels to be beating Shinon in strength and almost tying him in speed, and he only improves from there.

Now here's where we hit a conundrum. In HM, you only focus on the units that you want to bring for Endgame. Seeing as there is only one Double Bow, and two archers that we're arguing, this makes things difficult. We'll skip ahead to Endgame, assuming both have been used equally, but that Rolf was never babied or given BEXP abuse. We'll say that Shinon is at Level 20/6, which means that Rolf would be around level 14.

If it's not immediately obvious, Rolf should be a higher level because he gains EXP at a much higher rate. He is not still going to be twelve levels behind Shinon.

And we don't focus on only the units that we want to bring for Endgame. Endgame is fairly easy and doesn't need much preparation. What's more important is the rest of Part 4, where Shinon and Rolf are both pretty bad due to lack of enemy phase.

I won't even do a comparison. Rolf isn't winning any stats, which means his combat just flat out falls in comparison to the others. I don't see a reasonable way to get him up to the same level as Shinon without sacrificing too many turn counts or babying him.

So, because Rolf is very bad if we sandbag him out of levels and EXP he deserves, you think we should not give him levels and EXP?

But Soren, you say, what about other characters? Surely Rolf(T) deserves another comparison to a character that isn't such a higher level than him!

My immediate instinct would not be to compare him to another unit with a similiar level, but to compare him to someone he's next to on the tier list, like Boyd or Brom.

Fine. We will. Except for one problem. There is only one character that stands with him in terms of levels. Whatever Rolf does is <<<<< than Mist's healing.

In fact, Rofl(T) is above Mist(N), Marcia(N), and Heather. Three characters with handy utilities, and somehow Rolf(T)'s chip is better than that.

I'm not willing to discuss Mist, or Heather, ever ever ever.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Anouleth

[Soren37]

Congratulations, Rolf is being outperformed by Shinon. I guess we should accordingly place Rolf in say, the tier below Shinon, Upper Mid.

And he's also going to gain experience about half as fast due to that level lead. What's more, you didn't even put in their innate crit bonus from their level.

Sorry about the Crit. So Shinon gains levels slower, but his bases are so godly you don't have to worry. Rolf gains EXP faster, sure, but he's limited to potshots and being spoon fed. Last I heard, feeding kills was deemed "inefficient".

If Rolf takes a Seraph Robe in tier 3, he can cap HP early and BEXP his speed. Simple.

Fair enough. I can't see the Robe going to someone else that needs it.

Thing is, everyone know Rolf sucks in 3-P and 3-1. Question is, can he dig himself out of his rut? He only needs 4 levels to be beating Shinon in strength and almost tying him in speed, and he only improves from there.

Ok then, he does. But he needed four levels of chips or fed kills.

If it's not immediately obvious, Rolf should be a higher level because he gains EXP at a much higher rate. He is not still going to be twelve levels behind Shinon.

Once again, chip and spoon fed. Yes his SPD will improve, but at the start, which is when he needs the EXP, he only doubles Generals and Sages. His damage out is poor even with the Steel Bow. 29 ATK doesn't kill the Generals, but he can now kill Sages. Good thing he has RES, wait...

And if we're going by his base, his HP cushion hasn't inflated yet. If we give him the kills and what not, then at level 5, he'll have 35 HP. Are we going to give him another Robe?

And we don't focus on only the units that we want to bring for Endgame. Endgame is fairly easy and doesn't need much preparation. What's more important is the rest of Part 4, where Shinon and Rolf are both pretty bad due to lack of enemy phase.

If you're worried about Enemy Phase, crossbows. I know they're weak and expensive, but it gives them the ability to counter.

So, because Rolf is very bad if we sandbag him out of levels and EXP he deserves, you think we should not give him levels and EXP?

Fine, we'll look at them both at level 20/10, assuming no stat boosters or BEXP abuse, because I don't want to run through that ring.

Rolf Level 20/10

HP-56.65 STR-36 MAG-9.8 SKL-34.6 SPD-34 LCK-22.8 DEF-24.8 RES-18.6

Shinon Level 20/10

HP-53.5 STR-29.4 MAG-13.4 SKL-38.3 SPD-33.85 LCK-19.8 DEF-29.2 RES-21.2

A lead in HP and STR compared to SKL, DEF, and RES. It's debatable.

And about the sandbagging, it's because...you know what. I've said it enough. It's up there. Go find it.

My immediate instinct would not be to compare him to another unit with a similiar level, but to compare him to someone he's next to on the tier list, like Boyd or Brom.

I'm not willing to discuss Mist, or Heather, ever ever ever.

It's because of their utilities. Go on, say it. Mist's healing is far greater than Rolf's chip. Rolf can't bring people back from near-death, Mist can. Rolf can chip for ~10 damage or so, Heather can get a Dracoshield, Ettard, Rescue Staff, and Bolting. Marcia can air-drop units in. Brom's necessary for 2-1 and can help out in 2-2. T is vital for the DB, especially when 3-13 rolls around. Soren does better chip because of targeting RES, Rhys heals, Tanith air-drops, Cain and Giff are raep, Muarim is good for Part 1, and Skrimir can tank in the Silver Army.

Rolf is doing considerably less than all of these people because of an extremely lousy start. He can only kill Sages, but his HP cushion hasn't kicked in yet, which means he's squishy. I've said enough about how he's getting EXP. So why is he above people that are so useful for their chapters?

All the characters that are below him do more in their chapters then he does in his.

[Anouleth]

Sorry about the Crit. So Shinon gains levels slower, but his bases are so godly you don't have to worry. Rolf gains EXP faster, sure, but he's limited to potshots and being spoon fed. Last I heard, feeding kills was deemed "inefficient".

How is it? We have a General, that absolutely nobody is ever going to kill in one round. Give the kill to Rolf instead of Shinon, because he gets more out of it. We have a team with lots of people that aren't doubling, like Titania (this is pre-Wing) or Boyd or Soren. They can combo for kills with Rolf. If you want to direct EXP in someone's direction, it's perfectly possible to do so in the bounds of efficiency. In fact, if Rolf is going to turn around and be Shinon 2.0 later on, it's efficient to train him.

Ok then, he does. But he needed four levels of chips or fed kills.

Yes, he does need some effort to turn into Shinon 2.0, but it's more than Soren (T) is ever going to do.

Once again, chip and spoon fed. Yes his SPD will improve, but at the start, which is when he needs the EXP, he only doubles Generals and Sages. His damage out is poor even with the Steel Bow. 29 ATK doesn't kill the Generals, but he can now kill Sages. Good thing he has RES, wait...

Yes, he sucks in early chapters, we've established this. It's a good thing that once he gains a few levels and gets a forge, he's pretty damn good.

And if we're going by his base, his HP cushion hasn't inflated yet. If we give him the kills and what not, then at level 5, he'll have 35 HP. Are we going to give him another Robe?

He doesn't need a Robe at this stage. 23AS with a 45% growth is good enough, doubles plenty of things. The Robe is in case his speed remains bad in Part 4.

If you're worried about Enemy Phase, crossbows. I know they're weak and expensive, but it gives them the ability to counter.

Except that they're weak. We don't want to expose either Shinon or Rolf to enemy fire.

Fine, we'll look at them both at level 20/10, assuming no stat boosters or BEXP abuse, because I don't want to run through that ring.

Rolf Level 20/10

HP-56.65 STR-36 MAG-9.8 SKL-34.6 SPD-34 LCK-22.8 DEF-24.8 RES-18.6

Shinon Level 20/10

HP-53.5 STR-29.4 MAG-13.4 SKL-38.3 SPD-33.85 LCK-19.8 DEF-29.2 RES-21.2

A lead in HP and STR compared to SKL, DEF, and RES. It's debatable.

That SKL/DEF/RES is worthless. Neither of them is going to be fighting on Enemy Phase, neither of them has hit issues, so who cares?

It's because of their utilities. Go on, say it. Mist's healing is far greater than Rolf's chip. Rolf can't bring people back from near-death, Mist can. Rolf can chip for ~10 damage or so, Heather can get a Dracoshield, Ettard, Rescue Staff, and Bolting. Marcia can air-drop units in. Brom's necessary for 2-1 and can help out in 2-2. T is vital for the DB, especially when 3-13 rolls around. Soren does better chip because of targeting RES, Rhys heals, Tanith air-drops, Cain and Giff are raep, Muarim is good for Part 1, and Skrimir can tank in the Silver Army.

Oh, Mist can bring back people from near-death. Shame she can't fight for shit, when fighting is the most important thing in the entire game.

Do you actually have anything of substance to say?

Rolf is doing considerably less than all of these people because of an extremely lousy start. He can only kill Sages, but his HP cushion hasn't kicked in yet, which means he's squishy. I've said enough about how he's getting EXP. So why is he above people that are so useful for their chapters?

Yeah, because Soren doesn't have a lousy start and is super durable, and so is Marcia, and half those people are only good in one or two chapters, if even that.

All the characters that are below him do more in their chapters then he does in his.

Are you saying that EVERY character on the list should be above Rolf (T)? I really, really hope that's not what you're saying.

[eclipse]

Ok then, he does. But he needed four levels of chips or fed kills.

Sorry to interrupt, but what mode is this? Last I checked, not everyone on Ike's side was pulling ORKO on everything, so I put Rolf on clean-up duty, and he did just fine. It's not that hard to gain levels by mopping up.

He's also got the Killer Ballista in the Prologue to nab kills from the Gallian side.

A lead in HP and STR compared to SKL, DEF, and RES. It's debatable.

If the problem with Skill involves hitting enemies, then Rolf has support options that can close that gap (his Wind affinity gives him accuracy). If it's because of Deadeye activation. . .well, is 2% really enough to move anyone anywhere?

[dondon151]

Sorry to interrupt, but what mode is this? Last I checked, not everyone on Ike's side was pulling ORKO on everything, so I put Rolf on clean-up duty, and he did just fine. It's not that hard to gain levels by mopping up.

The problem with being locked to 2 range is that you're usually either ORKOing or doing the opposite of cleanup duty. I would much rather chip than kill with Rolf because it saves another character from taking a counter, although occasionally exceptions can be made to give him a kill.

He's also got the Killer Ballista in the Prologue to nab kills from the Gallian side.

The Killer Ballista is really weak. Like, it does 8 HP damage to halbs weak. You can hardly rely on that to kill anything. Your best option would be occasional crits against fire sages (they take 14 of 35 HP damage), plus they're the ones that you should target first anyway because they're a nuisance to the other units.

[Soren37]

How is it? We have a General, that absolutely nobody is ever going to kill in one round. Give the kill to Rolf instead of Shinon, because he gets more out of it. We have a team with lots of people that aren't doubling, like Titania (this is pre-Wing) or Boyd or Soren. They can combo for kills with Rolf. If you want to direct EXP in someone's direction, it's perfectly possible to do so in the bounds of efficiency. In fact, if Rolf is going to turn around and be Shinon 2.0 later on, it's efficient to train him.

Or give it to Shinon because he doesn't require half as many resources that Rolf needs. I'm okay with the combo on the General, but for the rest of the time, Shinon has a better damage output than Rolf and can double more reliably.

Yes, he does need some effort to turn into Shinon 2.0, but it's more than Soren (T) is ever going to do.

Soren(T) chips, too. Rolf chips. Plus, seeing as there are discussions about Crowning Soren, he then becomes a healbot.

Yes, he sucks in early chapters, we've established this. It's a good thing that once he gains a few levels and gets a forge, he's pretty damn good.

He's good, but is he really outstripping Shinon by that much? Shinon needs no forge or combo kills to be useful. Rolf requires the use of well-placed combos, a forge, and a robe to prevent being SPD screwed.

That SKL/DEF/RES is worthless. Neither of them is going to be fighting on Enemy Phase, neither of them has hit issues, so who cares?

Criticals, Deadeye activation, Disarm, Corrosion, Counter, Pavise, and durability against the auras that endgame can pull on you.

Oh, Mist can bring back people from near-death. Shame she can't fight for shit, when fighting is the most important thing in the entire game.

Did you know that death makes it hard to hurt people? That's why when we argued Mist and Rhys' placement, we didn't care about their combat. It was all about their healing.

Do you actually have anything of substance to say?

Depends on what bones you throw to me.

Yeah, because Soren doesn't have a lousy start and is super durable, and so is Marcia, and half those people are only good in one or two chapters, if even that.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Soren's chip is better due to targeting RES, and Marcia's flyer utility is ten times greater than whatever pretty words you can say about Rolf.

And Rolf is only good for one or two chapters. nflchamp's log, Interceptor's, and Colonel M dropped Rolf after two chapters and focused solely on Shinon. Why? He requires less resources and time to be useful.

Are you saying that EVERY character on the list should be above Rolf (T)? I really, really hope that's not what you're saying.

That one was my bad. The people that I listed are doing more in their chapters than Rolf will.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Soren37

[Shadow Mir]

Criticals, Deadeye activation, Disarm, Corrosion, Counter, Pavise, and durability against the auras that endgame can pull on you.

Yeah, Shinon's better with all of that... by about 1 to 3 points, a difference hardly worth mentioning. The only real thing that Shinon has in that comparison is the extra defense.