OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

What I'm saying is, any sensible person who went to transfer Rolf in the first place did so with intentions of actively using him.

That's not exactly what you said. You said "in the long run." As I mentioned, the transfer units exist in a void and do not have to be used like your average high tier unit, because any previous effort invested in them is irrelevant in this tier list. For example, investing resources in FE6 Marcus for the first 12 chapters does not automatically justify his use past then. What I'm saying is that under your assumption, Rolf (T) is not assumed to be used more than anyone. If you had, for example, put in the effort to transfer Astrid (who is still terrible), that doesn't mean that Astrid (T) should be automatically used in the long term.

For example, you. You'd never use Rolf, right? Knowing this, would you transfer him? Common sense says you wouldn't; you'd put the 39 levels into some other unit instead.

Uh, no. You're so completely wrong. I'd transfer Rolf if it would make him helpful.

Your rebuttals to my arguments on this subject so far consist entirely of pointing out my mistakes

Isn't that exactly half of what an argument consists of?

and "rofl sux instabottom".

Did I really say that? Please point out to me exactly where I said that.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Has any discussion been done here on the use of Fixed mode BEXP abuse in order to mess with growth rates? This would seem to have at least some relevance on what sorts of transfers would be feasible (significantly more, most likely). I just wanted to know if this new information about PoR was to be considered for transfers here, or if we're assuming that BEXP abuse is assumed not to exist.

[Interceptor]

It's been brought up. I think that it's an interesting tack to go down, but not for this tier list. Transfers are already a hacky workaround. Anything beyond that, I think should be in a separate thread. You could eliminate the "in a void" concept completely, at the same time.

[Narga_Rocks]

Has any discussion been done here on the use of Fixed mode BEXP abuse in order to mess with growth rates? This would seem to have at least some relevance on what sorts of transfers would be feasible (significantly more, most likely). I just wanted to know if this new information about PoR was to be considered for transfers here, or if we're assuming that BEXP abuse is assumed not to exist.

I think for this list we'll just pretend that they made the variable that counted growth points one that has decimal places rather than one that doesn't. Fixed mode BEXP abuse is impossible if not for that whole rounding thing.

[Soren37]

I think that one would assume that we don't abuse the Fixed Mode BEXP. That's just silly. However, it is a feasible option. Let's take Ike and give him the Fighter Band and a Steel Sword. His growths are now 85/60/20/50/50/35/35/40.

If we use 1 BEXP at a time, his growths become 100/100/0/100/100/0/0/0.

What about 2 BEXP at a time?

100/50/0/50/50/50/50/50

If we give him one BEXP at a time, it makes him an offensive terror. If Ike's level 5 when you get your base, he can cap STR, SKL, and SPD in his first tier, and his HP will be close to his cap.

I think that should be edited in. The Fixed Mode BEXP abuse can make some characters way too hacked.

[RNG Princess]

Oh thats true I did that for Titania I gave her the Knight Ward + iron sword and bexped her 1exp at a time for 2 level ups and in both she gained speed. I did the same trick for Tanith and Nephenee so they could cap str and it worked :).

Its just annoying to do BEXP abuse in fixed mode it takes way too long.

[Anouleth]

I think that one would assume that we don't abuse the Fixed Mode BEXP. That's just silly. However, it is a feasible option. Let's take Ike and give him the Fighter Band and a Steel Sword. His growths are now 85/60/20/50/50/35/35/40.

If we use 1 BEXP at a time, his growths become 100/100/0/100/100/0/0/0.

What about 2 BEXP at a time?

100/50/0/50/50/50/50/50

If we give him one BEXP at a time, it makes him an offensive terror. If Ike's level 5 when you get your base, he can cap STR, SKL, and SPD in his first tier, and his HP will be close to his cap.

I think that should be edited in. The Fixed Mode BEXP abuse can make some characters way too hacked.

You totally missed the opportunity to give him a Mage Band and have him cap Magic as well as everything else.

[Soren37]

Thank you Anouleth. We should probably have that edited in. No Fixed Mode BEXP from PoR.

[Rewjeo]

As opposed to Random Mode BEXP where you can just reset and cap EVERYTHING. Plus you simply cannot guarantee that units will always get the same transfers from PoR RM, while you can in FM.

[Colonel M]

After I finish Part 3 (which come on it shouldn't be that hard), I'll take a spin on Part 1 and see what happens with Aran being trained with Nolan goes. Maybe Jill w/Paragon too (so early promotion ftl).

[Naglfar]

That's not exactly what you said. You said "in the long run." As I mentioned, the transfer units exist in a void and do not have to be used like your average high tier unit, because any previous effort invested in them is irrelevant in this tier list. For example, investing resources in FE6 Marcus for the first 12 chapters does not automatically justify his use past then. What I'm saying is that under your assumption, Rolf (T) is not assumed to be used more than anyone. If you had, for example, put in the effort to transfer Astrid (who is still terrible), that doesn't mean that Astrid (T) should be automatically used in the long term.

I'll drop it if you can point out where we started disregarding previous effort put into transferring units. But what's Marcus got to do with this? Players use him with the intention of making earlygame easier. There's a difference there.

Uh, no. You're so completely wrong. I'd transfer Rolf if it would make him helpful.

What's your definition of "helpful"?

Isn't that exactly half of what an argument consists of?

Yes.

Did I really say that? Please point out to me exactly where I said that.

You didn't, but you haven't said much beyond "Rolf shouldn't be deployed".

[Colonel M]

Well Narga I hate to be a pain but

1) (unrelated to the Tier List), can you post my 3-12 stats in the OP of the Enemy Stats thread please?

2) Are we allowing new discussion on the matters or are we still attempting to hash out what we're arguing at the moment? I have a lot of things to bring to the table, unfortunately.

First target, since I can't seem to convince Rhys > Mist and Haar > Ike is being taken care of is Gatrie down. I have no clue where, but he should start thinking about taking the road back to Upper Mid. I won't post much more unless we're done with the other arguments.

Also smash isn't going to be happy once I post something with Boyd > Aran.

[Fenrir]

I think it was disscussed before that Gatrie should go to bottom of high or top of upper mid, he could go above rafiel i dont care as long as he's somewhere below the hawks at least.

[Florete]

I don't think Gatrie should be dropping all the way to Upper Mid, especially if Shinon's staying in High.

[Colonel M]

I think it was disscussed before that Gatrie should go to bottom of high or top of upper mid, he could go above rafiel i dont care as long as he's somewhere below the hawks at least.

Definitely.

Gatrie saves some turns on 3-P and 3-1, and from what I saw was necessary for 3-3's objective with burning the supplies. After that, his "necessary" period pretty much drops. Since he needs Celerity in order to function on top, as well as the Crown, he encounters many issues. Granted, 3-7 you can steal a Crown from Zihark, but even so it prevents Mia or Nephenee from an early promotion, or even Oscar for that matter. The general problem is, in order for Gatrie to stay functioning, he needs both the crown AND Celerity, which are pretty highly competed for. Meanwhile, the hawks are very useful for saving turns. With an Energy Drop on Ulki, he should ORKO most enemies (he is technically borderline) or you can go all out on Janaff and assure ORKOes. Hawks also save a lot of turns in 3-11, which is pretty much a flight-dominant chapter. Janaff can be BEXP'd to Level 30 and equip himself with Nullify and Celerity for maximum madness on the boss. Ulki can too, but of course he's 2 levels off in comparison to Janaff's 1.

Defintely don't see him above the hawks.

I don't think Gatrie should be dropping all the way to Upper Mid, especially if Shinon's staying in High.

I'm not 100% sure on Shinon drop, but consider the following:

- Shinon pretty much has great offense throughout the game. While he has minor issues with ORKOing, he is at least forgiven with weakening the enemies so much that almost anyone can KO them afterward.

- His Spd cap only bars him from doubling Swordmasters, and even then you can ferry over the Brave Bow if you desperately want him to do that.

- Innate crit, which makes him useful with a Killer Bow until the Silencer arrives.

- Caps HP, Spd, and Skl rather quickly (Level 17). The next highest growths are Def (45%), Str (40%), and Luck (30%).

- Less severe Mov penalties, and obviously +1 Mov

- 2-3 range upon promotion, which is pretty damn useful

- As far as leveling issues past Part 3, he can equip both Adept and Paragon thanks to Deadeye being 25 Skl capacity.

Gatrie's only real leads are if he doubles enemies he has a better chance of ORKOing them, but there are two conditions that must be met. The first is that he actually has to double. This isn't a major problem with his 60% Spd growth and passable Spd base of 20, but at best it nets him doubling the Sages and, eventually when they come, the Paladins with a Spd proc. Then, of course, it's assuming he can get both a Crown and Celerity to overcome his 23 Spd cap. He really needs to get past the cap as well since enemies can hit 21 AS by 3-7 - 3-8. There is his capability of counterattacking, but consider that Shinon's 2 range is also accurate and allows a 1 range unit to finish an enemy off, which is usually more reliable than the other way around (Hand Axes and such have iffy accuracy). He also has iffy accuracy, though that can be solved with a forge of course.

I can go further with Shinon vs. Gatrie, but I don't know. Gatrie being in Upper Mid again is possible unless you can argue him getting the 3-7 Crown and using it effectively throughout the rest of the game as well as the weight of an early promoted Gatrie vs. losing out on a DB unit / Mia / Nephenee promotion by Part 4.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Florete]

Gatrie's only real leads are if he doubles enemies he has a better chance of ORKOing them, but there are two conditions that must be met.

You forgot "can be thrown into a swarm of enemies and not only survive but counter/kill all of them." And I'm pretty sure it's been agreed, like, a year ago that Gatrie is the first or at least one of the first candidates for a Crown. Interceptor's argument on that is what started the idea of optimal resource distribution in the first place.

[Colonel M]

You forgot "can be thrown into a swarm of enemies and not only survive but counter/kill all of them." And I'm pretty sure it's been agreed, like, a year ago that Gatrie is the first or at least one of the first candidates for a Crown. Interceptor's argument on that is what started the idea of optimal resource distribution in the first place.

One year can change an entire premise. Why else is the tier list being questioned again? Something that is agreed a year ago can be disagreed today.

Gatrie has Haar and Titania to compete with on the Crown; Haar especially since, yes, I will say it loud and clear, Savior + Pass / Celerity is damn useful. Why put a Crown on Gatrie when you get nearly identical results with a unit with +3 Mov, can re-move, and only has one real fear that doesn't even deter his performance most of the time (Thunder Sages)? The tactic of dropping Gatrie off somewhere is only useful in 3-3 as I noted, and then possibly 3-8 and 3-9. Then possibly Part 4.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Tyranel M

[alfredo094]

Considering that we're already giving Titania significant resources, I would consider it unfair to give her the Crown. She's already getting the Speedwing and one random low-demand stat booster to cap her stats, and some BEXP mixed in.

And I doubt Haar want's Celerity. I dunno why he would want the Crown, but definitely not Celerity. 9 move + flying is enough.

[Anouleth]

Considering that we're already giving Titania significant resources, I would consider it unfair to give her the Crown. She's already getting the Speedwing and one random low-demand stat booster to cap her stats, and some BEXP mixed in.

Too bad, life isn't fair.

And I doubt Haar want's Celerity. I dunno why he would want the Crown, but definitely not Celerity. 9 move + flying is enough.

Celerity is great on Haar because he can fly over more stuff. Nobody else is going to drop Ike in 3-4, or burn stuff in 3-3, or bosskill in 3-5, or fly over all the stuff in 3-11.

[Colonel M]

Considering that we're already giving Titania significant resources, I would consider it unfair to give her the Crown. She's already getting the Speedwing and one random low-demand stat booster to cap her stats, and some BEXP mixed in.

Nobody really cares. Let's think about this: the first thing you should favor is the units that are the most flexible. Titania, Haar, and Oscar to a lesser extent are considered the most flexible. Why?

- They have the most Mov

- Canto

- Awesome combat (Oscar's is okay)

While it is only three reasons, and if it helps with the equation, think of it like this. I don't like pulling "bblade" card-like arguments, but in this context it makes the most sense. Why should I use the Master Crown on anyone but Titania or Haar? "Life being unfair" isn't a valid reason; we evaluate with opportunity cost. Since the only units being evaluated for an early promotion is between Titania, Haar, and Gatrie as your candidates. By having powerful mobile units, your efficiency likely increases more than it would with a 6-7 Mov unit with same, if not slightly better combat parameters. The worst case scenario with Haar is possibly dumping 3-9's Speedwing onto him in order to function in 4-3, but even then you can also use the Brave weapons to help you out with ORKOing the enemies.

Canto is one of the most epic advantages to have. You have the capability of attacking an enemy with the added benefit of re-moving. With dancers like Reyson transformed, Leanne, and Rafiel, you have the possibility of doing many things. For example, in 3-11 Haar has the capability to attack the Sniper on the platform, Canto back, given Mia, then Vigored by Leane, drop off Mia, and move one space back if necessary to prevent being struck down by the ArcThunder Sage.

And I doubt Haar want's Celerity. I dunno why he would want the Crown, but definitely not Celerity. 9 move + flying is enough.

You really should be reading my play log if you don't know the reasons why.

[RNG Princess]

I thought it was mentioned earlier that Titania doesn't need a crown because its easy and fast enough to promote her with BEXP/CEXP.

I'd use the crown on her but I can't see why Gatrie wouldn't use it just as well all he would need is to be airdropped. Unless he can't be ferried by the hawks or the pegs at all.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

I thought it was mentioned earlier that Titania doesn't need a crown because its easy and fast enough to promote her with BEXP/CEXP.

I'd use the crown on her but I can't see why Gatrie wouldn't use it just as well all he would need is to be airdropped. Unless he can't be ferried by the hawks or the pegs at all.

Hawks can't transport even tier 2 Gatrie. Tier 3 Gatrie has 26 wt or something high like that and the Seraph Knights won't go beyond 25 wt.

It's pretty much Tibarn and Haar and Jill that can fly and carry him. Only one of these exists in part 3. However, with the help of a heron Haar can still pick up and drop fairly well.

There are only two advantages to letting Haar have the 3-3 crown rather than Gatrie. More capacity for Saviour + Celerity, and three extra chapters (compared to taking the 3-6 crown from the DB and promoting in 3-8 base) while in tier 3 to try to gain exp to get levels and help his part 4 speed. I don't think you actually even need his promoted stats. Maybe the res promotion bonus is nice for some things in 3-4, but that may not be the only option. Anyway, the question is basically how much that is worth in comparison to getting an extra unit capable or doubling while 2HKOing and never dying. Which is why I'm not quite willing to dump Gatrie in the trash heap at this moment.

[RNG Princess]

Hawks can't transport even tier 2 Gatrie. Tier 3 Gatrie has 26 wt or something high like that and the Seraph Knights won't go beyond 25 wt.

It's pretty much Tibarn and Haar and Jill that can fly and carry him. Only one of these exists in part 3. However, with the help of a heron Haar can still pick up and drop fairly well.

There are only two advantages to letting Haar have the 3-3 crown rather than Gatrie. More capacity for Saviour + Celerity, and three extra chapters (compared to taking the 3-6 crown from the DB and promoting in 3-8 base) while in tier 3 to try to gain exp to get levels and help his part 4 speed. I don't think you actually even need his promoted stats. Maybe the res promotion bonus is nice for some things in 3-4, but that may not be the only option. Anyway, the question is basically how much that is worth in comparison to getting an extra unit capable or doubling while 2HKOing and never dying. Which is why I'm not quite willing to dump Gatrie in the trash heap at this moment.

Maybe Gatrie can take Titania's crown and celerity to keep up unless its too costly. I was just curious how Tyranel M is comfy with airdropping Mia in 3-11 while its perfectly possible to do the same for Gatrie(promoted by then most likely). The bad thing is only Haar can rescue and drop him so it takes a while longer compared to Mia.

and Gatrie seems like a comfortable unit to deploy in places like 4-2 or wherever walling is necessary.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

You need to question Gatrie's leveling speed again. I know it's great and all that we assumed a 6 move unit could get 5 levels without any problems, but the fact of the matter is, 6 move causes Gatrie problems when it comes to the amount of combat Gatire sees.

3-P, Gatrie isn't really reaching anything past, like, turn 2 due to terrain and 6 move.

3-1, sure, Gatrie sees combat, but everyone is needed for that chapter in the first place.

3-2 is over in no time, meaning Gatrie simply won't have the time to see much combat.

3-3 is a big map and Gatrie, again, has 6 move.

Sure Gatrie will gain some EXP, but I'll put doubt on 15 by this point. 13-14 seems more likely. Either way, it isn't like his problems end after 3-3.

3-4 Gatrie either has to get up ledges, which he has a bigger penalty for, or take the slope, where 9 mov units and ally laguz kill everything before he can reach it.

3-5 no one not named Titania or Haar is doing much.

3-7 there is swamp or river or whatever. He can barely cross.

I'll have to end here, as I need to shut down my laptop, but the use of the crown on Gatrie and the current pace seems kinda sketchy.

[Junkhead]

^ Hasn't anyone considered using Celerity on Gatrie if his Mov is heavy?

Edited September 3, 2010 by The Leaving Song