OMG it's a tier list

[Junkhead]

Surely, you need to provide some sort of reasoning before that happens?

I, along with others provided tons of reasoning to lower Aran already a few times.

Plus you hurt me too much in the HnH :( , so I'm not doing anything you say :P .

Maybe some other time when I feel like messing with those numbers.

The request to lower Aran was not only mine, but ok.

[Narga_Rocks]

The request to lower Aran was not only mine, but ok.

You are not actually part of the reason I'm not doing it, as should have been made clear by the :P .

[Florete]

I, along with others provided tons of reasoning to lower Aran already a few times.

Yeah, though I'm pretty sure he wasn't supposed to go all the way to Low. I think Mid was agreed on.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, though I'm pretty sure he wasn't supposed to go all the way to Low. I think Mid was agreed on.

Lower Mid at absolute worst, but I'm not sure even that was agreed upon. Low was never agreed on, though more than Soul wanted it.

[RNG Princess]

For some reason I feel that Jill belongs higher than what she is currently at, she's just so beneficial to dump resources to and she's still useful if resources aren't used on her. I'd place her transfered version below Nolan and her untransfered version above Tibarn, but as of now I have little to no proof as too why other than Hand axe forges are cheap and she doesn't lack 2 range.

[Junkhead]

Lower Mid at absolute worst, but I'm not sure even that was agreed upon. Low was never agreed on, though more than Soul wanted it.

I think I might have exagerated at that when remembering Soren37's signature, which has "Aran to Low" listed there.

[Anouleth]

For some reason I feel that Jill belongs higher than what she is currently at, she's just so beneficial to dump resources to and she's still useful if resources aren't used on her. I'd place her transfered version below Nolan and her untransfered version above Tibarn, but as of now I have little to no proof as too why other than Hand axe forges are cheap and she doesn't lack 2 range.

Even if she's the best place to dump resources (which is debatable), she still has to pay the opportunity cost for them. They're not free.

[Shadow Mir]

For some reason I feel that Jill belongs higher than what she is currently at, she's just so beneficial to dump resources to and she's still useful if resources aren't used on her. I'd place her transfered version below Nolan and her untransfered version above Tibarn, but as of now I have little to no proof as too why other than Hand axe forges are cheap and she doesn't lack 2 range.

When exactly are hand axes forgeable? The tail end of part 3? I can't remember since I haven't played this game in aeons...

[Anouleth]

When exactly are hand axes forgeable? The tail end of part 3? I can't remember since I haven't played this game in aeons...

3-8 onwards. But you can easily make a Hand Axe in Part 3 and leave it in the Convoy for Jill to pick up in 4-P.

[Colonel M]

*Sigh*. Sorry to bug you Narga, but still no changes like Mist being combined and Haar > Ike? :(

[RNG Princess]

Even if she's the best place to dump resources (which is debatable), she still has to pay the opportunity cost for them. They're not free.

Haar gets a speedwing :P because it benefits the most. Idk anyone else that can benefit from a seraph robe in part 1 aside of her or Micaiah. Sothe doesn't need it, maybe Zihark and Nolan would appreciate it but maybe Nolan not so much because of Tarvos.

I just think the she's def one of the best characters to dump kills to because she gives the most in return thats of course competing with Nolan, Volug, Sothe and Zihark. but her flight > everyone else from DB in part 3 and 4.

I'd like to compare her with Haar with a need of more polishing but a more promising future.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

*Sigh*. Sorry to bug you Narga, but still no changes like Mist being combined and Haar > Ike? :(

Which means I haven't gotten around to it.

Someone remind me what else they wanted? I'm not moving anyone from one tier to another right now since I don't feel like dealing with changing the numbers.

Moving Mist (T) would involve changing numbers. As for Haar and Ike, does he really win once you factor in the opportunity cost of crown and wing?

I mean, yes, he's the best (at least for the wing, the crown is debatable based on how important Celerity + Saviour is). That doesn't mean there isn't a cost. A 10 doesn't stay a 10 when you consider you could have a 6 with the same materials. Economic Profit = Gains - Op. Cost.

[Anouleth]

Haar gets a speedwing :P because it benefits the most. Idk anyone else that can benefit from a seraph robe in part 1 aside of her or Micaiah. Sothe doesn't need it, maybe Zihark and Nolan would appreciate it but maybe Nolan not so much because of Tarvos.

Even Chuck Nolan has iffy durability with Tarvos against those Tigers. Aran could also benefit. Ship it over and give it to Nephenee. Give it to Volug. Give it to Edward and BEXP him. You are correct, none of these options are as good. But they still exist.

I just think the she's def one of the best characters to dump kills to because she gives the most in return thats of course competing with Nolan, Volug, Sothe and Zihark. but her flight > everyone else from DB in part 3 and 4.

Sure, Jill has good growths and flight. But her base stats are ass without a transfer. She can use kills better than anyone else on the planet, but that doesn't change that it's a pain to give them to her unless we put transfers and dump half our stat-boosters into her.

I'd like to compare her with Haar with a need of more polishing but a more promising future.

So would I, but it's a shitty comparison that fails to capture the differences between them. Haar doesn't need anything to rock+roll - sure, you can Crown him and Wing him, but that's just icing on the cake. Jill is badly in need of Robe+Drop+kills+Paragon+Crown in order to blossom.

The funny part is that she doesn't even have a more promising future. A well-trained Haar can make Silver Army look like a joke just as easily as Jill can. Probably better since he can 2HKO some stuff she can't.

Incidentally, I vaguely recall dondon calling for Sothe in Top Tier. I think I can dig that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Even Chuck Nolan has iffy durability with Tarvos against those Tigers. Aran could also benefit. Ship it over and give it to Nephenee. Give it to Volug. Give it to Edward and BEXP him. You are correct, none of these options are as good. But they still exist.

The only one that matters is second best. Or third best, really, since you get two robes in part 1.

Nolan and Jill can both get one. Which is #3? Aran, perhaps, except what does that even get you? Maybe more durability than Jill/Nolan but with less capability. Not nearly as useful as high leveled Jill in 3-12 or having a promoted Nolan in part 4. It's not exactly a large opportunity cost, so it shouldn't take a huge cut of the profit.

Oh, and Haar gets 26 speed even if you wait to crown until he caps tier 2 speed. If you crown early like Colonel M seems to want, good luck having that 24 or 25 AS turn into anything useful for 4-3. Even if Jill 3HKOs and Haar 2HKOs, her KO rate would be way better when she doubles stuff and he doesn't.

As for the crown, um, who cares? If you are raising a DB they are eating a crown. It's kind of like Paragon in 3-9. You aren't going to try to use more than 2 of them in 3-11 and beyond. In fact, you will likely use 0. There is, effectively, 0 cost for using Paragon in 3-9. Similarly for the crown Jill takes. Only to make matters even crazier, you are crowning her in 3-12 to get a performance you can't get from literally anyone else. Ditto Paragon, actually, since a DB will be using Paragon and it's not like Nolan can take Beastfoe + Paragon anyway. The Robe is epic for Jill in comparison to anyone else, so that's nearly irrelevant as well. Units take kills to get raised. Fact of life. Are you going to whine over Ike getting kills to reach level 20 before 3-E? Titania getting kills?

The only reasonable complaint you are left with from your little list is the drop. That's it. Cry me a river.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Moving Mist (T) would involve changing numbers. As for Haar and Ike, does he really win once you factor in the opportunity cost of crown and wing?

Oh come on Narga, that's really lazy. Thats a few seconds work, at most. If you can't be bothered to do that (oh, and moving Gatrie/Reyson won't even involve number changing), whats the point of even discussing the list?

Edited October 9, 2010 by Zwiebel

[RNG Princess]

Jill is like a mini Haar in Part 1 with the ferrying in 1-6-2 and maybe 1-8 (with Vika or Fiona or whoever else) I doubt anyone else can do that to shave off that much turns in that one map (1-6-2). I can't think of anything else she'd have over Zihark though aside of being a better candidate for kills, but for now I think Jill > Laura.

Besides she's not that much of a pain to raise is she? She certainly didn't seem so to me anyway (pEMN). I doubt you'll get as much benefit from raising anyone else on the DB team beside her or Nolan. Sothe and Volug aren't fed kills to gain experience so its not really a matter of raising them (except for S strike), theyre just doing their job of making life easier.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

3-8 onwards. But you can easily make a Hand Axe in Part 3 and leave it in the Convoy for Jill to pick up in 4-P.

OK. Thanks. I never really used forging, so I couldn't remember.

Jill is like a mini Haar in Part 1 with the ferrying in 1-6-2 and maybe 1-8 (with Vika or Fiona or whoever else) I doubt anyone else can do that to shave off that much turns in that one map (1-6-2). I can't think of anything else she'd have over Zihark though aside of being a better candidate for kills, but for now I think Jill > Laura.

Besides she's not that much of a pain to raise is she? She certainly didn't seem so to me anyway (pEMN). I doubt you'll get as much benefit from raising anyone else on the DB team beside her or Nolan. Sothe and Volug aren't fed kills to gain experience so its not really a matter of raising them (except for S strike), theyre just doing their job of making life easier.

Jill is unavailable in 1-8.

[Anouleth]

Jill is like a mini Haar in Part 1 with the ferrying in 1-6-2 and maybe 1-8 (with Vika or Fiona or whoever else) I doubt anyone else can do that to shave off that much turns in that one map (1-6-2). I can't think of anything else she'd have over Zihark though aside of being a better candidate for kills, but for now I think Jill > Laura.

Jill is not even in 1-8, and I can certainly name at least one person who shaves off as many turns as Jill - Tauroneo, the person she's ferrying.

And how is she 'like a mini haar'? 25ATK is needed to 2HKO Jill. That's a good chunk of 1-6-1, and everything not in that category is either a Pegasus Knight or 3HKOing. I might as well call Marcia a 'mini Haar'.

To be honest, I agree with Jill > Laura, but that's more to do with Laura than it is to do with Jill.

Besides she's not that much of a pain to raise is she? She certainly didn't seem so to me anyway (pEMN). I doubt you'll get as much benefit from raising anyone else on the DB team beside her or Nolan. Sothe and Volug aren't fed kills to gain experience so its not really a matter of raising them (except for S strike), theyre just doing their job of making life easier.

Of course she's not a pain to train if she gets an Energy Drop and a Robe. But otherwise, she's like Nolan if he didn't gain any levels since 1-1. 24HP, 11STR and 13DEF against 29HP, 12STR and 9DEF.

The only one that matters is second best. Or third best, really, since you get two robes in part 1.

Nolan and Jill can both get one. Which is #3? Aran, perhaps, except what does that even get you? Maybe more durability than Jill/Nolan but with less capability. Not nearly as useful as high leveled Jill in 3-12 or having a promoted Nolan in part 4. It's not exactly a large opportunity cost, so it shouldn't take a huge cut of the profit.

Oh, and Haar gets 26 speed even if you wait to crown until he caps tier 2 speed. If you crown early like Colonel M seems to want, good luck having that 24 or 25 AS turn into anything useful for 4-3. Even if Jill 3HKOs and Haar 2HKOs, her KO rate would be way better when she doubles stuff and he doesn't.

As for the crown, um, who cares? If you are raising a DB they are eating a crown. It's kind of like Paragon in 3-9. You aren't going to try to use more than 2 of them in 3-11 and beyond. In fact, you will likely use 0. There is, effectively, 0 cost for using Paragon in 3-9. Similarly for the crown Jill takes. Only to make matters even crazier, you are crowning her in 3-12 to get a performance you can't get from literally anyone else. Ditto Paragon, actually, since a DB will be using Paragon and it's not like Nolan can take Beastfoe + Paragon anyway. The Robe is epic for Jill in comparison to anyone else, so that's nearly irrelevant as well. Units take kills to get raised. Fact of life. Are you going to whine over Ike getting kills to reach level 20 before 3-E? Titania getting kills?

The only reasonable complaint you are left with from your little list is the drop. That's it. Cry me a river.

I guess it's just impossible to ship the Robe, or Paragon, or the Crown to the GMs.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

I'm sorry ^_^ I meant 1-7 the chapter where Tormod, Muarim, and Vika are recruited.

I should rephrase that, she's a mini Haar as in she ferries Tauroneo like Haar ferries Gatrie. Obviously Haar is the best ferry so in a way Jill is mini-Haar. You're right Tauroneo is a puzzle piece to a fast boss kill but Jill is the missing puzzle piece here, unless Tauro can get there fast on his own. They're both equally important I agree, but Tauroneo is possibly replaceable I mean what if you have a Sothe with crazy str? (like me :3)

BTW why would you ship everything to GMs? They're already doing fine enough. They'll have 2 paragons by 3-11. Jill > Nephenee on the robe/paragon anyway.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Colonel M]

Moving Mist (T) would involve changing numbers.

It's merging two Mists. Come on man.

As for Haar and Ike, does he really win once you factor in the opportunity cost of crown and wing?

I mean, yes, he's the best (at least for the wing, the crown is debatable based on how important Celerity + Saviour is). That doesn't mean there isn't a cost. A 10 doesn't stay a 10 when you consider you could have a 6 with the same materials. Economic Profit = Gains - Op. Cost.

Now you're grasping at straws here. The goal is simple: efficient play through. It's not "who functions best with the absolute least of resources" like a smash_fanatic play through would. I've demonstrated... how many times now that Haar doesn't really "need" a crown until 3-8. That's plenty of time to get his Speed up to par. Hell, part of the reason for the Crown is more for the +2 Speed than it is Celerity + Savior (those just become bonus points).

[Florete]

If it would satisfy everyone and if it is really needed to be done, Narga, I can change the numbers after you make the edits.

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess it's just impossible to ship the Robe, or Paragon, or the Crown to the GMs.

Suggesting that

a: it is better not to have Paragon to raise some DB

b: the gms need both DB crowns (3-6 is already going, why do they need 3-12)

c: there are GMs that do more with the added durability from a robe than Jill/Nolan

d: among all the other stuff you are sending, you have room for stuff better left with the DB

yeah.

[Zkirsche]

Thank you, RFoF for finally moving Reyson off the top spot.

It would also be much appreciated if you move Gatrie below the hawks.

[nflchamp]

Thank you, RFoF for finally moving Reyson off the top spot.

It would also be much appreciated if you move Gatrie below the hawks.

1) Narga was probably the one who made the moves.

2) Gatrie is below the hawks.

[Anouleth]

1) Narga was probably the one who made the moves.

2) Gatrie is below the hawks.

It is Narga. Go read the first post. It says at the bottom that Narga_Rocks was the guy that edited it, four days ago.