OMG it's a tier list

[Mekkah]

Basically, even if we have, say, exactly 10 guys that outclass Stefan in 4-E, for Stefan to be harming the team, all 10 of them have to be in play, which is extremely unlikely.

We have 5 guaranteed "in play" people in the royals, who are better than Stefan no matter what atrocities the RNG performed on them. And we didn't solo the game with Ike and other forced units - saying there's a possibility we used less than 5 people who are now better than Stefan is pretty silly.

[Zkirsche]

Units like Boyd may not be sent into endgame, though. See, if he can bring up lots of positive utiltiy from before 4-E to get above everyone else.

However, untis like Volka and stefan have it tough as in order to do anything they have to take away great unit slots.

Now, I know you'll be thinking "But Boyd is taking up a valuable slot too." And rightfully so: he does. But who honestly uses it better? There's plenty of unit slots to fit him in in parts 3 and 4 (Save 4-E). 4-E just so happens that you have every single other unit competing for those psots, not just the rest of the GMs/CRKs/DB.

[-Cynthia-]

Since you don't seem satisfied that 10 units are better than Stefan, I guess that means you're asking for more

--/8 Stefan(Vague Katti)

53 HP 47 Atk 36 AS 24 Def 16 Res 92 Avo

20/6 Zihark( Vague Katti A Volug/Nolan)

46 HP 47 Atk 36 AS 24 Def 21 Res 137 Avo

49 Avo, 5 Res> 7 HP, plus Zihark is helping another team member.

20/8 Boyd (Urvan A Ike)

63 HP 59 Atk 29 AS 27 Def 17 Res 101 Avo

This one is a little more questionable because of Boyd's AS, but he has a good speed cap of 35, and we probably tossed him a Speedwing earlier (plus he still OHKOs Generals with Hammer). 12 Atk lead, 10 HP, 3 Def/1 Res and 9 Avo = winner. Ike is also benefitting from Boyd's support. If you want to harp about Boyd's AS, Boyd with a Brave Axe still has more Atk than Stefan.

20/12 Titania (Urvan A Oscar)

49 HP 56 Atk 31 AS 27 Def 26 Res 109 Avo

Titania is substantially more durable than Stefan, has a big Atk lead, durabiltiy lead, and is providing support. Her Atk only falls to 2 lower than Stefan's if she needs to resort to the Brave Axe.

20/20/5 Jill (Urvan A Volug)

45 HP 51 Atk 30 AS 29 Def 24 Res 119 Avo

More durable than Stefan (5 Def, 8 Res, 27 Avo> 8 Hp), has more Atk, Mov, Canto/flight. Can't even really attack Jill's AS, since she easily reaches 34 by 20/11.

Your favorite Halberdier:

20/20/7 Nephenee (Wishblade A Haar)

47 HP 49 Atk 33 AS 27 Def 25 Res 106 Avo

Much more durable than Stefan overall and hold an Atk lead. Note that Nephenee either has 1-2 range over Stefan or the Atk gap widens by 2(if Stefan even gets Alondite).

20/12 Haar (Urvan A Nephenee)

56 HP 60 Atk 28 AS 35 Def 18 Res 93 Avo

Haar has an obvious durability lead, Mov/Canto, flight. If you want to argue Haar not doubling, he still has 2 more Atk than Stefan with a Brave Axe(and can use the Brave Lance), and like Boyd/Titania, tossing him a Speedwing early on helps him out earlier and here, so it's a good investment.

20/11 Gatrie (Urvan A Mia)

54 HP 58 Atk 31 AS 38 Def 25 Res 83 Avo

Gatrie's durability leads are even better than Haar's, although Stefan finally wins Mov for once. Again, if the doubling is an issue, Gatrie can still switch to the Brave Axe/Lance and deal about equal damage to Stefan.

All right, that's 7 more characters better than Stefan. The point is, unless you're running some kind of special runthrough in which we're not using royals or something, Stefan has no chance at positive utility, since he's inevitably booting out someone better.

There is chance we didn't use people like Boyd/Nephenee/ etc., but most of the units listed had major positive utility before Stefan joined, and there's still more than 10 units better than Stefan. Of course arguing with smash is an exercise in futility, but I have a pretty good point here- Stefan's Endgame is a minor negative, which is bad because that's all he has.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

This is just my opinion, but when we compare 2 units, we should assume both are actively used for the entirety of their playtime. You could say both Edward and Pelleas hurt the team if deployed, but a tier list should still determine who's hurting it more, not saying "1-P to 1-4 > 4-2" or something.

[-Cynthia-]

This is just my opinion, but when we compare 2 units, we should assume both are actively used for the entirety of their playtime. You could say both Edward and Pelleas hurt the team if deployed, but a tier list should still determine who's hurting it more, not saying "1-P to 1-4 > 4-2" or something.

Still though, we can't consider Edward's 1-6 and beyond as a negative, since we don't have to field him and thus have the option of making him equal to Stefan(not present). Stefan is better than Edward for Endgame, since Edward requires too many resources to be good at this point, but it's a pretty minor win since Stefan is a minor negative if fielded here anyway.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

The issue isn't about optimizing Edward's use, it's about knowing how he compares to others when we decide to use him the entire game.

With this whole approach of vehemently avoiding negative utility, you could say Pelleas vs Stefan consists of how well either unit does when force deployed. Considering Pelleas has less movement restrictions and can use fenrir, we could actually claim Pelleas is better even though Stefan wipes the floor with him in 4-E.

[Interceptor]

This is just my opinion, but when we compare 2 units, we should assume both are actively used for the entirety of their playtime. You could say both Edward and Pelleas hurt the team if deployed, but a tier list should still determine who's hurting it more, not saying "1-P to 1-4 > 4-2" or something.

But why? That doesn't properly simulate how people play. In your comparison system, if Eddie died in the story after 1-5, he'd be higher ranked than one that's availible the whole game, because it'd be impossible for him to ever suck.

That doesn't make any goddamn sense at all.

[-Cynthia-]

The issue isn't about optimizing Edward's use, it's about knowing how he compares to others when we decide to use him the entire game.

With this whole approach of vehemently avoiding negative utility, you could say Pelleas vs Stefan consists of how well either unit does when force deployed. Considering Pelleas has less movement restrictions and can use fenrir, we could actually claim Pelleas is better even though Stefan wipes the floor with him in 4-E.

I guess I see it as "using units to maximum effectiveness"(which sometims involves not using them period), as opposed to using them the entire game. Although if we're using Edward the entire game, he now beats Stefan in the one part of the game Stefan was winning before, so it ends up being how "bad" Edward is in 1-6 and beyond, which is highly debatable.

And yes I agree with Int. It makes no sense to punish characters for being available, since they usually are allowed not to be fielded, we have the option to make them a "0". If they're forced, we can probably force them into a corner or something, but Edward isn't forced past 1-3 so that's somewhat irrelevant here.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

But why? That doesn't properly simulate how people play.

Ok, but then if a unit has negative utility their entire existence, how can we even compare them to anybody? The optimal way to use them is to not field them.

In your comparison system, if Eddie died in the story after 1-5, he'd be higher ranked than one that's availible the whole game, because it'd be impossible for him to ever suck.

What's your point? I'm quite aware the former Eddie is worse than the latter.

And yes I agree with Int. It makes no sense to punish characters for being available, since they usually are allowed not to be fielded, we have the option to make them a "0". If they're forced, we can probably force them into a corner or something, but Edward isn't forced past 1-3 so that's somewhat irrelevant here.

It's not a matter of punishing availability, but rather evaluating it when it's put to full use.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Ok, but then if a unit has negative utility their entire existence, how can we even compare them to anybody? The optimal way to use them is to not field them.

Indeed. In such situations we then have to compare them when they would be fielded. But for units who drop in utility (Edward, Geoffrey, Illyana etc.), we don't have to count more chapters than necessary as negative utility, unless we're trying to argue that Edward is good in part 4 or something, since then he would he have to suffer through said middle chapters to become better. However, since I'm only arguing Eddie's early Part 1> Stefan's Endgame, there's no reason we have to assume Eddie use throughout the entire game.

What's your point? I'm quite aware the former Eddie is worse than the latter.

Because the only difference between the two is that one is available more often, and that's the one that's lower ranked, despite the fact he can be not used with extreme ease.

I guess we're just defining things differently here. Some tier lists don't factor in availability at all, just how useful a charcter is when they are available. You're assuming we have to use a character whenever they are available, I am not.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

It's not a matter of punishing availability, but rather evaluating it when it's put to full use.

OK then, what's the value of this evaluation? Perhaps this tier list is not meant to rank how much a character helps you complete the game, but if it is supposed to do that, surely you could see that assigning negative utility to someone who starts out decent but turns to suck, would result in a ranking that does not accurately reflect what that character does.

[dondon151]

Ok, but then if a unit has negative utility their entire existence, how can we even compare them to anybody? The optimal way to use them is to not field them.

Then the unit bottoms out at 0 utility.

If "efficiency" is touted as the best thing ever when it comes to making tier lists, I don't see why we have a double standard regarding how we should use units.

[nflchamp]

Then the unit bottoms out at 0 utility.

If "efficiency" is touted as the best thing ever when it comes to making tier lists, I don't see why we have a double standard regarding how we should use units.

A way of ranking is to give a unit negative utility for the inefficiency of being used over another character. It's all about efficiency, the views on how to determine a units efficiency are just different.

Is it right to let a unit gather positive utility early and then ignore the chapters they'd incur negative utility simply because another unit is better?

[charmander6000]

Why is Edward not considered to be deployed in 1-5 and 1-6? There's enough room for everyone in both chapters and he could do chip damage/finish off an enemy since most units can't ORKO.

[Mekkah]

There's also the flipside of having to prevent more than one enemy from attacking him, and the fact that if anything attacks him, that's something Tauroneo or Volug could have blicked. That's not even taking into account any special weapons he takes from Zihark or heals from Laura that anyone else would have appreciated.

I'd like the list to either reflect "deployed in every chapter available" or "only deployed when that is helping us instead of hurting us". It's Fox who is managing this one, so she should be the one making the call on that. Whoever disagrees can just make their own list, I guess.

And obviously forced units like Sothe don't have a lot of choice in the matter pre 4-E.

[Zkirsche]

Is leo really better than nasir? the latter is incredibly useful in 4-E-5. The former is.... not very useful at all after the prolouge.

And obviously forced units like Sothe don't have a lot of choice in the matter pre 4-E/quote]

Which is why being forced isn't necessarily a good thing.

Edited June 19, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Leo, has useful chip damage for a few chapters at least until 1-3. He's sort of good in 1-6, since he can OHKO Peg Knights and use the ballista on the second half. You can Seal him and Bowgun/Beastfore for Part 3. Even if you don't give him Beastfoe for Part 3, he can use ledges on 3-12 and 3-13. He also provides a good support bonus to pretty much anyone.

Basically, useful for a few chapters> useful for one chapter.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

For part 3 usage, he takes up a lot of resources. Is taking up a lot of resources > Not taking up resources? No.

Chip damage is... ok. But not very useful. He's always a liability on the field after that, even in 1-6, because of his frailness. Pegs can sneak up on him in 1-6-1 and in 1-6-2 the ballistae can't fire backwards, meaning it's range is very limited. Good luck using it.

Basically the weight of said 1 chapter >>> the weight of said few chapters.

[-Cynthia-]

For part 3 usage, he takes up a lot of resources. Is taking up a lot of resources > Not taking up resources? No.

Chip damage is... ok. But not very useful. He's always a liability on the field after that, even in 1-6, because of his frailness. Pegs can sneak up on him in 1-6-1 and in 1-6-2 the ballistae can't fire backwards, meaning it's range is very limited. Good luck using it.

Basically the weight of said 1 chapter >>> the weight of said few chapters.

He doesn't take up too many Part 3 resources, you can just forge him a Steel Bow and have him shoot down at stuff, it's not very difficult nor resource intensive.

Are you implying 4-E(5) alone is worth more than several Part 1 and Part 3 chapters? That's bold of you.

[Zkirsche]

He doesn't take up too many Part 3 resources, you can just forge him a Steel Bow and have him shoot down at stuff, it's not very difficult nor resource intensive.

You gave him a master seal AND beatsfoe. That's two great and useful resources right there.

Then you have to consider he's still quite frail.

Are you implying 4-E(5) alone is worth more than several Part 1 and Part 3 chapters? That's bold of you.

Not when Leo's arguably a detriment in many of them, and the ones he has positive contributions in (1-P to 1-3) are weaker overall than Nasir's awesome 1 chapter (E-5), and decent other (E-4).

[Colonel M]

Master Seals are plentiful in the first place. It's not really a detriment to an extent unlike Master Crowns.

[Zkirsche]

Master Seals are plentiful in the first place. It's not really a detriment to an extent unlike Master Crowns.

Not when every unit wants them, and I'd rather not spend 10000 gold on something like a master seal just to make a bad unti mediocre. oh, and every unit does want them, just look at this list:

Laura

Nolan

Jill

Aran

Edward

Leonardo

Leo takes it away from these units. That's pretty bad.

[Colonel M]

There's only one on that list that would seriously consider it (scratching Leo) and that's Laura to obtain Light magic. Most of the units would rather use as many level ups as possible or consider it if they're lagging behind by 1-E.

[Progenitus]

Since you don't seem satisfied that 10 units are better than Stefan, I guess that means you're asking for more

--/8 Stefan(Vague Katti)

53 HP 47 Atk 36 AS 24 Def 16 Res 92 Avo

20/6 Zihark( Vague Katti A Volug/Nolan)

46 HP 47 Atk 36 AS 24 Def 21 Res 137 Avo

49 Avo, 5 Res> 7 HP, plus Zihark is helping another team member.

Now if bringing Volug into 4-E wasn't an issue we might have an argument.

Unfortunately Volug is kinda ehhh in 4-E due to his low att + no mastery for any chance of OHKOing. I suppose he does double everything and is durable, but unfortunately the bar for 4-E is very high, and that's not going to cut it.

So that means if Zihark ended up with Volug, he's likely not making it into 4-E, which is -45 for Zihark. Suddenly doesn't look so clear anymore, does it?

If he ended up with Nolan then there's no problem, since Nolan has a decent 4-E (although Nolan might not necessarily be better than Stefan in 4-E).

20/8 Boyd (Urvan A Ike)

63 HP 59 Atk 29 AS 27 Def 17 Res 101 Avo

This one is a little more questionable because of Boyd's AS, but he has a good speed cap of 35, and we probably tossed him a Speedwing earlier (plus he still OHKOs Generals with Hammer). 12 Atk lead, 10 HP, 3 Def/1 Res and 9 Avo = winner. Ike is also benefitting from Boyd's support. If you want to harp about Boyd's AS, Boyd with a Brave Axe still has more Atk than Stefan.

I like how Boyd randomly got an Earth support from Ike when Ike doesn't give a crap who he supports and thus specifically naming someone who gets it is favoritism.

And no he's not OHKOing generals with hammer. At that level he'd already have issues OHKOing generals on NORMAL MODE (who have 47-48 HP/29 def).

"lolbraveaxe" doesn't solve anything either (nor does it solve anything for all the units you went "lolbrave" for) since it's 1-range, while Stefan can just switch to a tempest blade or something if he wants 2-range. In addition, the brave axe has been around since 3-6, so unless you hammerne'd it, it has very few uses. On the other hand the VK just appeared in 4-3 so there's no chance of it being broken by now.

I also like how this comparison (and all of them actually) don't mention anything about crit. Stefan has like 20 crit lead before weapons are even considered.

Let's not forget that non-sword users have a disadvantage against Stefan in 4-E-3 because he can wyrmslayer if needed and they can't.

So in reality where Boyd can't get an earth support without it being considered favoritism, he loses avoid by ~15 to Stefan and won't be doubling. good job, boyd.

20/12 Titania (Urvan A Oscar)

49 HP 56 Atk 31 AS 27 Def 26 Res 109 Avo

Titania is substantially more durable than Stefan, has a big Atk lead, durabiltiy lead, and is providing support. Her Atk only falls to 2 lower than Stefan's if she needs to resort to the Brave Axe.

Yes because Oscar really wants LOLLIGHT when he could get any affinity he wants with that earth he has, and the first thing he wants is att, not def.

Also, that's a high level for Titania. She gets like 5 exp a kill for early part 3, which means overall she's not even promoting until maybe during 3-10, so she's going to be like 20/20/3 or so when part 4 comes around, so she's more likely going to be ~20/20/10 for 4-E, which is pretty much -1 to all her stats, which really sucks because now she has 29.5 AS, which is going to be borderline doubling in 4-E-1, and most certainly not doubling in 4-E-2 or 4-E-4 or 4-E-5.

20/20/5 Jill (Urvan A Volug)

45 HP 51 Atk 30 AS 29 Def 24 Res 119 Avo

More durable than Stefan (5 Def, 8 Res, 27 Avo> 8 Hp), has more Atk, Mov, Canto/flight. Can't even really attack Jill's AS, since she easily reaches 34 by 20/11.

Like Zihark, there's the whole issue with bringing Volug into 4-E, except unlike Zihark you didn't list any alternatives to the Volug support, so until then Jill is getting -2 def/-30 avoid, either that or she's pretty much counteracting her own lead on Stefan, since using Jill means I have to bring both Jill + Volug, while using Stefan means I can bring someone that's supportless, like a royal, or even just Volke. She probably wins overall, but it's by a very small amount.

Your favorite Halberdier:

20/20/7 Nephenee (Wishblade A Haar)

47 HP 49 Atk 33 AS 27 Def 25 Res 106 Avo

Much more durable than Stefan overall and hold an Atk lead. Note that Nephenee either has 1-2 range over Stefan or the Atk gap widens by 2(if Stefan even gets Alondite).

Unfortunately the wishblade doesn't even come until you're almost done with 4-E-2 and since you're using these levels it seems you're doing the comparison at 4-E-1 (which makes me believe you've never even played the game, since if you did you would know this fact).

So that means I get to subtract several points of att as well as no 1-2 range because Neph has to settle for a crappier weapon like a forged silver.

Neph might be better overall, but again it's by a small amount.

20/12 Haar (Urvan A Nephenee)

56 HP 60 Atk 28 AS 35 Def 18 Res 93 Avo

Haar has an obvious durability lead, Mov/Canto, flight. If you want to argue Haar not doubling, he still has 2 more Atk than Stefan with a Brave Axe(and can use the Brave Lance), and like Boyd/Titania, tossing him a Speedwing early on helps him out earlier and here, so it's a good investment.

Like Titania, this is a pretty high level for Haar. Which again sucks for him because "lolspeedwing" doesn't clear up his doubling issues.

So while Haar wins durability/move, Stefan has a pretty big offense lead, so it's not so clear cut.

20/11 Gatrie (Urvan A Mia)

54 HP 58 Atk 31 AS 38 Def 25 Res 83 Avo

Gatrie's durability leads are even better than Haar's, although Stefan finally wins Mov for once. Again, if the doubling is an issue, Gatrie can still switch to the Brave Axe/Lance and deal about equal damage to Stefan.

That's a very high level for Gatrie. Chances are he's only going to be maybe 20/20/8 or 20/20/9.

In fact, I don't even know how you cooked up these levels. How would Gatrie have a 3 level lead on Boyd, when the level gap only STARTS at 2?

Which sucks for Gatrie because he now has some doubling issues in 4-E-1, isn't doubling in 4-E-2 (since you need 32-33 spd to be doubling them), and obviously isn't going to double anything in 4-E-4 or 4-E-5, so it's not nearly as clear-cut as you think.

And I like how Gatrie is using Urvan when his max axe rank is S. You know, with the whole deal about Gatrie being a LANCE GENERAL, aka his SS rank when he becomes a Marshall is in LANCES.

Have you even played this game?

All right, that's 7 more characters better than Stefan. The point is, unless you're running some kind of special runthrough in which we're not using royals or something, Stefan has no chance at positive utility, since he's inevitably booting out someone better.

You purposely sandbagged Stefan by doing one or more of the following:

- Hand out an earth support while ignoring the fact that it's either favoritism because the unit WITH the earth affinity doesn't want whoever you threw him with (aka rofl @ Ike/Oscar supporting Boyd/Titania). Nevermind that the actual unit you're supporting is important because that particular unit might not make it into 4-E (e.g. Volug).

- Pretended that units were using weapons that either didn't exist (lolwishblade) or weapons that they don't have the weapon rank for (lolgatrie using urvan). Or they're using the brave axe and/or lance which doesn't solve anything because those weapons have been around for so long they're probably broken unless you hammerne them, plus they're 1-range when Stefan can just switch to a tempest blade or alondite for 2-range and doubling.

- Inflated a unit's level, nevermind that your levels are not even consistent with logic (it's magic how Gatrie gets a 3 level lead on Boyd in 4-E- when the level lead back in 3-P only started at 2).

- Fishy rounding. Yes I noticed that you rounded a lot of 0.5 and 0.6 up, and while that is mathematically correct, there's always the chance that the unit in fact didn't actually make it. For example, you said that 20/20/8 Boyd has 29 speed. He actually has 28.55. And in fact if you check this link.

http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=game...id=49&key=5

You'll notice that he actually has an EQUAL chance to have EITHER 28 or 29 speed, and his chances to have 30+ speed are only negligibly higher than his chances to have 27 or less.

Which really sucks for Boyd because he basically has a coin flip chance of having 28 spd, meaning "lolspeedwing" doesn't necessarily mean he starts doubling, especially in 4-E-2 where you need something like 32-33 to be doubling. (which is generally why I leave the decimals in)

- Completely ignored crit when it's actually fairly large; 15-20 or more against most units, as well as the wyrmslayer option for 4-E-3 that non-sword users don't have. It's a lot more pronounced in 4-E-2 since it's not a general swarm and Stefan raping his att if he switches to killing edge (or even brave sword if it's not broken) doesn't matter as much since the enemies have less def anyway.

(At this point I have a feeling int is going to go "BUT MIA CRIT IN PART 3", and I'll just remind him that the difference is that Mia's crit lead is largely based on her forged weapon, while Stefan's crit lead is before the weapon is even considered, plus forging max crit AND mt in 3-2 will actually make my weapon expensive enough to matter, because if I'm not maxing mt as well I may as well just use a killing edge and not a wimpy forge)

no biases here, rite

completely valid comparisons here, mirite

There is chance we didn't use people like Boyd/Nephenee/ etc., but most of the units listed had major positive utility before Stefan joined, and there's still more than 10 units better than Stefan. Of course arguing with smash is an exercise in futility, but I have a pretty good point here- Stefan's Endgame is a minor negative, which is bad because that's all he has.

The problem here is that most units listed here who are beating Stefan have had crummy performances before 4-E, which means that even if they do win 4-E, they're not necessarily worth fielding the whole game when you consider that Stefan was 0 effort.

And aside from Royals (where Naesala is actually pretty debatable due to no 2-range, and the fact that the royals are mainly used for Degh/Aura/Ashera killing, and Naesala is pretty poor at that. Nailah is pretty debatable too. And if we're bringing this many royals we probably aren't bringing any other laguz since again, don't want to swamp the team down with too many 1-range units, which already excludes laguz like the hawks), there's only a couple of units I count that beat Stefan in 4-E.

Shinon

Mia

Zihark (if he supports Nolan and not Volug)

Jill (by a small amount)

Neph (by a small amount)

Most of the other units have doubling issues (see half the units lolcynthia named), or have 2-range and transformation issues (like the hawks), so arguments can be made for either side. The fact that Stefan vs these guys is debatable is PROOF that Stefan is actually good.

Also, it's time another issue is brought, and that's the whole fact that Stefan is RNG proof.

See, even if we have 5 units that beat Stefan in 4-E (and for some reason the other five are ALL going to the royals, which is pretty retarded because they're fairly useless in 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 due to no 2-range), they ALL have to be at least average or above. You know that Jill we have? What if she got speed screwed and has 28 spd and not 30? At that point Stefan would easily beat her.

And fortunately for Stefan, he doesn't need all of them to be RNG screwed. He only needs ONE unit to be RNG screwed and for you to drop that unit before a unit slot is now open. In fact, if a unit is RNG screwed, his support partner might now not make it into 4-E as well, because for the supporter to get into 4-E, I'd also have to bring along the RNG screwed unit, which is pretty much just shooting myself in the foot.

Say that I had Zihark x Nolan. But Nolan got speed screwed and is trash. So if I drag both along, I get Zihark who does fine, but now Nolan is basically deadweight. I could just as easily bring in Stefan + another 4-E filler and together they'd be outperforming Zihark + Nolan.

So let's say that each unit has a 25% chance of getting RNG screwed (which is generally very lenient. For example, Boyd at 20/20/9, where he averages 29 speed, has a 24% chance of having 27 spd or less, and because he's so borderline, having even 28 hurts him a bit, where the chances of having 28 or less is now 40%. And there's not only speed screwage, but str screwage and def screwage as well). There is only a ~23.7% chance that all five of them will be average or better, which is actually pretty low.

And then of course there's the fact that all five of those guys (Shinon/Zihark/Mia/Jill/Neph) have to be in play, and all five royals are being played as well.

"but what if they get rng blessed"

That doesn't matter, because we're assuming that if they were at average stats they'd be better than Stefan and therefore be the ones to go into 4-E, so getting blessed isn't going to change anything because they're the ones going into 4-E and not Stefan anyway. It only changes when they get RNG screwed.

Now it's a different story for the borderline units who are debatable vs Stefan, since if they get RNG blessed then they'll be better than him and thus make it in, and if they get RNG screwed then Stefan wins and makes it into 4-E.

So basically, all the royals have to be fielded because we want to do that for some reason, plus we either need Shinon/Zihark/Mia/Jill/Neph/maybe another unit or two that I didn't mention to be at least average stats and we had to actually field them in the first place, and the units who are debatable need to be RNG blessed so they are the clear winners of 4-E since otherwise it's either a coin flip debate or they got RNG screwed and now Stefan basically has a free ride into 4-E.

Yes this isn't a specific list of funny circumstances that have to happen all at the same time and on every single playthrough so that we can sandbag Stefan and call him bad and not bring him into 4-E.

[-Cynthia-]

It's not like Laura can avoid ORKOs after promotion, and her main use is still as a healbot anyway, so even that's questionable. The only other real use of Master Seals is to save a level of EXP, which is nice, but not really a reason to deny Leo one.

Scratch what I said about a forge for Leo, he gets Lughnasdh for Part 3. It's not taking up any resources, because no one else can use it anyway.

BTW, smash if you're going to bitch about Gatrie using Urvan, there's no Mt difference between it and Wishblade anyway, so it makes no difference whatsoever. As for your other points, they're mainly minor nitpicks (oh noes I rounded up .6, teh horror, Haar can't be 20/12 etc.) and doesn't seem to lead to you grasping the major concept that Stefan is worse than most of the units you're bringing to Endgame. There are more comparisons I could make (Elincia,Ranulf, Skirmir), but you would whine about those too I'm sure. And why in the world can't Boyd get an Ike support? Ike likes the Atk boost from Fire, Boyd likes the durability boost from Earth, it's a win/win.

Edited June 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-