OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

"Hundred Reset Hell?" Ha, no way. [...] No, Sothe's "Reset Hell" in PoR does not even make sense. Just try getting Mist to cap everything. Then you'll know what Reset Hell truly is.

Let me make sure that I am understanding you correctly, here. In your current run, Sothe is demanding 2-3 resets per level from you, which trends out to about 47-48 resets over the course of his level 1-20 career. Additionally, this is for one unit, and not for anyone else that you might be raising for transfers in the same playthrough.

Am I really so out of line by calling this "Hundred Reset Hell"? Could I get back into your good graces by calling it "Four Dozen Reset Purgatory, For One Guy"? As a rule, I like to be precise when possible.

I do not see people squirming when they argue that my 9.0 was too low.

I don't suppose that you recall what your response was when I argued how useless Sothe was in 4-E-4, do you?

I do not believe you.

You don't believe what? The whole thing?

[Florete]

Let me make sure that I am understanding you correctly, here.

You are not.

In your current run, Sothe is demanding 2-3 resets per level from you,

Check context. The 2-3 resets on average are for perfect levels, which he does not need every time. He levels up in the map on occasion, and as long as he gets HP and Luck, I don't need any resets.

Additionally, this is for one unit, and not for anyone else that you might be raising for transfers in the same playthrough.

My point is that everyone else takes more. Note that I did not say Sothe is merely easy to reset for, I said he's the easiest.

Am I really so out of line by calling this "Hundred Reset Hell"? Could I get back into your good graces by calling it "Four Dozen Reset Purgatory, For One Guy"? As a rule, I like to be precise when possible.

Can I assume you've never done a random mode reset transfer run in PoR? Because if you did, then unless you either didn't use Sothe (likely) or got horribly unlucky with him, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

I don't suppose that you recall what your response was when I argued how useless Sothe was in 4-E-4, do you?

I am one person, and not even one of the people referred to in the quote your sentence here responded to. I am not your only opponent, nor am I still living in October 2009.

You don't believe what? The whole thing?

These parts:

My hate for Sothe has nothing to do with it.

You know who else I hate? Nephenee.

I hate Gatrie, too.

I am a big fan of Zihark

And Mist, my favorite character, is way down in the tier list garbage heap where she belongs.

That last one is partly a matter of fact anyway, since Mid tier is hardly "garbage."

[Junkhead]

It's kinda hard to tell if someone is biased towards someone or something when you are a fan and the other is the hater. That's where the hater starts calling the person who is defending the object or person a "fanboy", even if they aren't really fans. Just an example, anyway.

Have you ever tried saying that Micaiah has good things going for her? NM thinks you are overrating her just by pointing out the goods!

Edited December 15, 2010 by Flint Eastwood

[Interceptor]

Can I assume you've never done a random mode reset transfer run in PoR? Because if you did, then unless you either didn't use Sothe (likely) or got horribly unlucky with him, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

I thought it was pretty obvious that I haven't done a Random mode transfer run where I reset abuse for perfection. The only runs that I do are in Fixed Mode, or C'est la Vie Random runs (where I go with whatever I get). I have transferred Sothe before, that's how I found out (and reported) that it's possible to have his RD stats be worse than his normal bases.

(EDIT: anyway, I was referring to the totality of Random Mode reset runs, not just Sothe by himself.)

I am one person, and not even one of the people referred to in the quote your sentence here responded to. I am not your only opponent, nor am I still living in October 2009.

I just wanted to give you an example of what I was talking about, one that I was sure you'd remember, and thus follow my point. If you're annoyed at that and want to get back at me, you can feel free to bring up how I used to argue that Marcia was the best unit from Part 2.

These parts:

I don't appreciate being called a liarface. You tell me that you like Sothe, I take you at your word. It's one thing to suspect that I'm being biased about a guy who stole his wardrobe from a 10 year-old girl, but to doubt my personal character preferences? At least you believe me about Mist, I guess.

That last one is partly a matter of fact anyway, since Mid tier is hardly "garbage."

It is for me; she deserves better. Would you want to be in a Brom/Brom(T) sandwich? Me neither.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Interceptor

[Florete]

(EDIT: anyway, I was referring to the totality of Random Mode reset runs, not just Sothe by himself.)

Then I don't get your argument at all. It seemed like you were saying something to make Sothe look bad, but Sothe is the least frustrating part of Hundred Reset Hell.

I just wanted to give you an example of what I was talking about, one that I was sure you'd remember, and thus follow my point. If you're annoyed at that and want to get back at me, you can feel free to bring up how I used to argue that Marcia was the best unit from Part 2.

I considered it.

I don't appreciate being called a liarface.

And Mist, my favorite character, is way down in the tier list garbage heap where she belongs. Etc.

That last one is partly a matter of fact anyway, since Mid tier is hardly "garbage."

It is for me; she deserves better. Would you want to be in a Brom/Brom(T) sandwich? Me neither.

Liarface.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[nflchamp]

5 + 9 = 14. 5/14 = ~0.36. So around 36% of the time he's useless (though I question treasure hunting in 4-3 being defined as "isn't worth a great deal", but that may just be the completionist in me). The other 64% he's great. Quite different from the 80% bad you said earlier.

1)The only thing in the desert that is only possibly worthwhile is the laguz gem, as far as I'm concerned. Well, Stefan too, but obviously Sothe is out of luck on that one.

2)If Sothe is considered useful for 9 chapters and there are 38 chapters in the game, then 9/38 = .237. Which makes him useless for nearly 80% of the game.

[-Cynthia-]

2)If Sothe is considered useful for 9 chapters and there are 38 chapters in the game, then 9/38 = .237. Which makes him useless for nearly 80% of the game.

Of course by this logic, every character in the game is useless for well over half the game, so Sothe isn't doing too poorly (Ilyana almost manages 50%, but she's useless for most of her existence anyway).

Edited December 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[NinjaMonkey]

2)If Sothe is considered useful for 9 chapters and there are 38 chapters in the game, then 9/38 = .237. Which makes him useless for nearly 80% of the game.

Surely you should only consider the chapters that he's playable, right?

Damn, beaten to it.

Edited December 15, 2010 by NinjaMonkey

[nflchamp]

Of course by this logic, every character in the game is useless for well over half the game, so Sothe isn't doing too poorly (Ilyana almost manages 50%, but she's useless for most of her existence anyway).

Sothe is pretty awesome, it's true. Just don't pay too much attention to the other 80% of the game where he either 1) doesn't exist, or 2) might as well not exist, because that sort of undermines his position as Radiant Dawn Jesus.

I don't really care, I just wanted to point out that Int was perfectly correct in saying Sothe is worthless 80% of the game.

EDIT: Though Titania has 5 more chapters where she can at least be considered worthwhile.

Edited December 15, 2010 by nflchamp

[Interceptor]

Then I don't get your argument at all. It seemed like you were saying something to make Sothe look bad, but Sothe is the least frustrating part of Hundred Reset Hell.

Therein lies the problem. I was not trying to make Sothe look bad, I was just pointing out that I have no experience with the "Hundred Reset Hell" that is massaging the stats of a bunch of PoR units in Random mode, because I have no patience for it. So I just assumed that it was possible to get Sothe to 40 LCK, having never done it myself. Try looking at my post without assuming that I'm shitting all over him, maybe it will make sense then.

Liarface.

The part of this soldier that realizes how superfluous a second healer is in an army when it hardly needs a first one, understands that she's not going anywhere fast on the tier list. The part that likes Mist as a character, and enjoys doing things like heal-abusing her to Valkyrie and giving her A-rank Ike and an epic forge, thinks she should be more warmly regarded.

But which holds sway in this thread? The one that's consistent with the goals of the tier list, naturally. Search ye for Mist hypocrisy, madam, and ye shall find nothing but shadows and dust.

2)If Sothe is considered useful for 9 chapters and there are 38 chapters in the game, then 9/38 = .237. Which makes him useless for nearly 80% of the game.

I went with 9/42 for my estimate, obviously because I was trying to sandbag Sothe as much as possible.

[nflchamp]

I went with 9/42 for my estimate, obviously because I was trying to sandbag Sothe as much as possible.

Your 9/42, I'm sure, is counting 1-6 as 2 maps and 4-E as 5, while saying Sothe's 3-6 isn't that great and discounting it from the 9.

My 9/38 counts 1-6 and 4-E as 1 chapter each, while saying Sothe is useful in 3-6 and including it in the 9.

Doesn't really matter in the end.

[RNG Princess]

Overall staff users are the easiest to transfer because of unlimited ward spamming. I say Sothe is one of the easiest to transfer in random mode because he can easily be raised by BEXP only :3 and he has blossom too, but in Fixed mode he's easily one of the harder ones because he'd require a lot more attention and it doesn't help he has 19 levels to go so he will really want to get blessed.

[Florete]

Try looking at my post without assuming that I'm shitting all over him, maybe it will make sense then.

It does. I guess at this point I'm so used to you always bagging on Sothe that whenever you mention him I automatically assume you're trying to give him a shot of Jack Daniel's.

The part of this soldier that realizes how superfluous a second healer is in an army when it hardly needs a first one, understands that she's not going anywhere fast on the tier list. The part that likes Mist as a character, and enjoys doing things like heal-abusing her to Valkyrie and giving her A-rank Ike and an epic forge, thinks she should be more warmly regarded.

But which holds sway in this thread? The one that's consistent with the goals of the tier list, naturally. Search ye for Mist hypocrisy, madam, and ye shall find nothing but shadows and dust.

I still don't believe you on the other stuff.

[Narga_Rocks]

You're free to question the wisdom of it, so long as you acknowledge that it's within the power of the player to make it happen easily, because that's what my point was. You have plenty of DEF partners in the DB, even if only used temporarily, and there is adequate thicket coverage in 3-6 to set up the scenario if you so desire (right in the choke points).

So, of the most recent "efficient" playthroughs, how many of them holed up in the starting area and played defensively?

Sure, sounds good to me. Endgame is one chapter. Let's also ignore stuff like 2-P and 3-E, because who cares, and we can probably combine 3-6 and 3-7 since they are basically the same map anyway right? And then there's maps like 3-10, which have a bunch of NPCs in them, so it's not really fair to give playable characters full credit for the chapter.

Fine. Whatever.

1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3, 4-E-1, 4-E-2, 4-E-3, 4-E-4, 4-E-5

19 total chapters. He arrives on turn 2 in 1-2, so that's closer to 19 and 18 so I'm not going to say 18 and a half. 10 of those chapters he's fine in.

Why are you bringing up 3-10 and 2-P and 3-E? He's not there. And you didn't even respond to the point that if you punish him for availability sucking in RD then you have to punish everyone. So there's nothing that hurts him from lack of appearance that doesn't also hurt Ike, Volug, Mia, Titania. What's the point in complaining? Sothe isn't in 3-P, but Mia isn't in 1-2. Sothe isn't in 3-1, but Mia isn't in 1-3. Sothe isn't in 3-2, but Mia isn't in 1-4. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Besides, there are only 43 chapters in the game max, and that's if you call 4-E five chapters and 1-6 two chapters. 33 / 43 = 77% so we are finally getting close to your original 80% (and taking into consideration his 1 turn missing from 1-2 he gets a little closer). However now the only units that are even capable of doing anything more than 50% of the time are Micaiah and Ilyana. Forgive me for not seeing this as a meaningful argument against Sothe.

The more relevant stat here is that Sothe is very useful for over 50% of his own existence. Counting and complaining about the times he isn't even there is pointless when his availability is nearly equivalent to or better than everyone on the list that is within 5+ spots of Sothe's position.

If we really try, I'll bet we can get Sothe up to effective 50% participation in the game, or more!

Considering only Micaiah and Ilyana can get past 50% and neither of them are anywhere near as good as Sothe (even you'll admit to that), is there any point to your current argument at all?

Sure, when you throw in the 24 chapters in which he is not even available it may start to look bad for him, but throwing in the 24 chapters in which Mia is not available will cancel that out in the comparison between the two of them so why are you bothering to bring it up?

[nflchamp]

The more relevant stat here is that Sothe is very useful for over 50% of his own existence. Counting and complaining about the times he isn't even there is pointless when his availability is nearly equivalent to or better than everyone on the list that is within 5+ spots of Sothe's position.

So, Sothe has approximately 10 chapters where his combat can be relative. Titania has approximately 17 chapters where her combat can be relative.

I'm sorry that Sothe's availability doesn't look that great.

[Florete]

Sure, when you throw in the 24 chapters in which he is not even available it may start to look bad for him, but throwing in the 24 chapters in which Mia is not available will cancel that out in the comparison between the two of them so why are you bothering to bring it up?

Belly-shirt.

:P

So, Sothe has approximately 10 chapters where his combat can be relative. Titania has approximately 17 chapters where her combat can be relative.

I'm sorry that Sothe's availability doesn't look that great.

I hope you can notice the flaws in that logic without me needing to tell you.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, Sothe has approximately 10 chapters where his combat can be relative. Titania has approximately 17 chapters where her combat can be relative.

I'm sorry that Sothe's availability doesn't look that great.

17? She's got 18 chapters if you count endgame as 5, except...

3-4 and 3-7 are not good for her. 3-7 is really bad for her, by the way, unlike 3-4 where she can at least help on the lowest height or maybe help carry a 7 move unit closer or something. 4-4 at least there are enemies to clear out in the south east as you head towards those annoying reinforcements and being a rout map every dead enemy is important. Titania's one hit in 4-E-5 is more powerful than Sothe's, but she doesn't exactly combine to KO Auras with very many units so is not doing much more than Sothe there. Brave Axe tends to have low hit and will put her much closer in damage to Sothe's Baselard if she only hits once. 4-E-2 isn't relevant for anyone not a heron that is lacking a siege tome or is named "Ike". I suppose you can make her able to use Wyrmslayer and help clear the path to the boss or something for 4-E-3, so maybe that's something. And 4-E-4 9 move helps but all she can ORKO are Thunder Spirits and she'll need parity to do it since the important spirits are on +15 def tiles.

It's not exactly unprecedented to have a unit > another unit even if the (useful) availability difference is 10 chapters to ~14 or 15. Just look at all the units that Ulki and Janaff are above. Or check out Percy on the fe6 lists. Does Titania ever do as much for the GMs as Sothe does for the DB in early to mid part 1? I'm not necessarily saying that he 100% deserves the spot RF has given him (and I've left alone), just saying that there's no reason to act like it's impossible for him to deserve it.

Besides, my original problem was how using the 80% statistic is misleading due to only two units in the game being available for at least 50% of it. I don't have any problems admitting that if you want to consider Endgame as 5 chapters for some reason then Sothe is good for less than 60% of his existence.

Also, the original discussion was with super sothe. Volug only has 15 total chapters and his combat in 1-E is probably inferior to what Super Sothe does in 3-12. I think I'd like to argue that his combat in 1-8 is comparable to what Super Sothe does in 3-12. Or possibly inferior here, too. If we aren't counting Sothe's 3-12 in this, might as well not count Volug's 1-8 and 1-E, either. 13 to 10. 10 doesn't seem so bad now. (Or 11 to 15 if we decide to count Sothe's 3-12 under his 'good chapter' count.)

[Interceptor]

So, of the most recent "efficient" playthroughs, how many of them holed up in the starting area and played defensively?

I expect it's roughly the same as the number of playthroughs that transferred over an epic Sothe from PoR. Also worth noting here that having Sothe play defensively against back-to-back 41mt tigers does not even begin to imply that the entire army holes up in the starting area.

Why are you bringing up 3-10 and 2-P and 3-E?

I was making a point about excluding chapters from the total count for arbitrary reasons. You noted that they didn't make sense, but didn't extend that to treating Endgame as a single chapter.

And you didn't even respond to the point that if you punish him for availability sucking in RD then you have to punish everyone.

I also didn't respond with a recipe for banana bread. The similarity between those two things, is that they have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Considering only Micaiah and Ilyana can get past 50% and neither of them are anywhere near as good as Sothe (even you'll admit to that), is there any point to your current argument at all?

By "my argument", you mean your incorrect interpretation of my argument? Maybe you and Anouleth need to get together to make a debate team.

My statement about Sothe was about his relative uselessness in the latter part of his career. The part about the chapters where is he actually missing -- as opposed to where he is just effectively missing -- is there to put his overall contribution in the context of the entire game. It's flavor, rhetoric.

The only person in this thread that appears to understand the main argument is nflchamp. The rest of you need to switch to decaf.

[Narga_Rocks]

I expect it's roughly the same as the number of playthroughs that transferred over an epic Sothe from PoR. Also worth noting here that having Sothe play defensively against back-to-back 41mt tigers does not even begin to imply that the entire army holes up in the starting area.

Not technically, however if you aren't holing up I don't see this happening at all. Also it's not like it's even relevant since there are so few of these guys in 3-6 anyway. My original point was just that your "maybe" is so unlikely as to not be worth mentioning, really.

I was making a point about excluding chapters from the total count for arbitrary reasons. You noted that they didn't make sense, but didn't extend that to treating Endgame as a single chapter.

Is it really so arbitrary to count Endgame as less than 5 chapters? Maybe 1 is a little much in the downgrading, but 2 or 3 seems much more reasonable than 5.

I also didn't respond with a recipe for banana bread. The similarity between those two things, is that they have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

No, you just happened to mention all those other chapters for flavour. Forgive me for treating that as an important part of your point given how half of the statement I quoted was about the chapters in which he does not exist.

I'm just annoyed that you were treating part my response as if I was responding to part 2 (how bad he is later on in his existance) when I was talking about part 1 (him not existing at all). And then bringing up your pet peeve #whatever. Call it my pet peeve when you claim I'm doing something I'm not.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=1379424

"When I say "might as well not exist", I mean that whatever stupid shit he's doing there isn't worth a great deal."

You are acting like I didn't even know that. You were responding to my complaint about you talking about his non-existence as if I was responding to you talking about his sucky-existence. I thought my statements were pretty obviously not saying anything like you pet peeved about.

By "my argument", you mean your incorrect interpretation of my argument? Maybe you and Anouleth need to get together to make a debate team.

My statement about Sothe was about his relative uselessness in the latter part of his career. The part about the chapters where is he actually missing -- as opposed to where he is just effectively missing -- is there to put his overall contribution in the context of the entire game. It's flavor, rhetoric.

The only person in this thread that appears to understand the main argument is nflchamp. The rest of you need to switch to decaf.

Sure, he's kinda useless in the later part of his career. Nobody denies that. It is, however, not that big a deal when you consider for how many chapters he is useful and just how useful he is during those chapters. And your "flavor" or "rhetoric" with the 80% is mostly just there to make the situation look worse than it really is.

And what is this "main argument" that nflchamp is understanding? At first he was just following your original statement that involved a ton of chapters that don't really matter for Sothe. He was continuing the whole 80% bit, which is misleading. Later on he finally said something relevant about Sothe's availability in comparison to Titania's, but 10 to 17 isn't such an insurmountable difference. It's not impossible for Sothe to just be that much better during his good chapters.

[Interceptor]

Not technically, however if you aren't holing up I don't see this happening at all. Also it's not like it's even relevant since there are so few of these guys in 3-6 anyway. My original point was just that your "maybe" is so unlikely as to not be worth mentioning, really.

It's not hard to just go apeshit in one front while the other holds the line, never mind that pushing out doesn't even take away the ability to survive 2x41, since far-flung areas have thickets as well. I hope that you're done with this now, because I certainly am.

Is it really so arbitrary to count Endgame as less than 5 chapters? Maybe 1 is a little much in the downgrading, but 2 or 3 seems much more reasonable than 5.

It's going to be arbitrary no matter what value you settle on.

I'm just annoyed that you were treating part my response as if I was responding to part 2 (how bad he is later on in his existance) when I was talking about part 1 (him not existing at all). And then bringing up your pet peeve #whatever. Call it my pet peeve when you claim I'm doing something I'm not. [...] You are acting like I didn't even know that. You were responding to my complaint about you talking about his non-existence as if I was responding to you talking about his sucky-existence. I thought my statements were pretty obviously not saying anything like you pet peeved about.

Again: I have zero interest in talking about Sothe's non-deployed chapters. I understand that you understand the difference between #1 and #2, but I'm still going to ignore/deflect anything that doesn't have something to do with my point. I don't feel like a kirsche-style tangential quote-bomb today, and tomorrow's not looking good either. Don't let me stop you from wringing out every drop of blood, but also don't expect me to participate.

And your "flavor" or "rhetoric" with the 80% is mostly just there to make the situation look worse than it really is.

That's what rhetoric is. It's an attempt to frame things in such a way as to persuade people. Water is wet, film at 11.

And what is this "main argument" that nflchamp is understanding? At first he was just following your original statement that involved a ton of chapters that don't really matter for Sothe. He was continuing the whole 80% bit, which is misleading. Later on he finally said something relevant about Sothe's availability in comparison to Titania's, but 10 to 17 isn't such an insurmountable difference. It's not impossible for Sothe to just be that much better during his good chapters.

nflchamp understands that the point was about Sothe's status as a bump on a log during his lategame deployment. Whether you agree with his argument about Titania is a non-issue, the point is that he actually followed where I was going with it, instead of getting tangled up in something that's irrelevant.

[Florete]

So, Interceptor, just what the hell are you trying to do?

[Narga_Rocks]

nflchamp understands that the point was about Sothe's status as a bump on a log during his lategame deployment. Whether you agree with his argument about Titania is a non-issue, the point is that he actually followed where I was going with it, instead of getting tangled up in something that's irrelevant.

But who doesn't already know that he's virtually useless lategame? I guess I just thought you were trying to go after more than what everyone already knows so I looked too deeply into your statements.

[Interceptor]

So, Interceptor, just what the hell are you trying to do?

I have come to this thread to argue Sothe down, and make s'mores. And I'm all out of arguments graham crackers.

But who doesn't already know that he's virtually useless lategame? I guess I just thought you were trying to go after more than what everyone already knows so I looked too deeply into your statements.

Once you unravel the pedantry and offended sensibilities that resulted from my declaration that Sothe is not Radiant Dawn Jesus, you'll notice that I was just making a sarcastic reply to Queen_Elincia's bit of props for him.

[Florete]

I have come to this thread to argue Sothe down, and make s'mores. And I'm all out of arguments graham crackers.

Then you're either doing a terrible job or using a very unorthodox style.

[Narga_Rocks]

The trouble with Sothe and Titania is that we have to decide if Sothe's 10 good chapters are good enough to override Titania's 13 to 18 chapters (depending on how you count it, since 3-4 barely counts for her, 3-7 she can't face much either, and 4-E can reasonably be counted as anything between 2 and 5, perhaps even 1).

It's like the hawks against anything that is slightly worse than they are but around for longer. And just as annoying. So I'm leaving it how RF had it.