OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

He'll always come down if you put a unit in a certain position. Regardless, Marcia is usually going to end up tag teaming the halb anyway on a 5 turn clear because Geoffrey is busy and no one else can ORKO (actually, Geoffrey won't ORKO either, so...).

Even with a speed transfer, he won't double the bugger. Marcia has a respectable chance at 23AS, in which case she probably ORKOs with the Brave (not really necessary though). It's not like Geoffrey is going to need the Brave for 2-E.

[Colonel M]

He doesn't really need the Brave Lance for 2-E, but he does kind of need it for 2-3 against the boss.

[Zkirsche]

Titania and Haar have 7 movement in 3-8, Reyson doesn't exist in 3-11 and Titania has mobility issues. So really it only applies for 3-10.

You still have the hawks for 3-8 and flying/canto > not.

so you have leanne instead, and 3-11 is a chapter where flying comes in mouch more handy than not.

If Titania has mobility issues, Mia hasn't got a hope.

I admit it's quite confusing when he starts talking about a different person in the middle of a paragraph.

I thought it was obvious considering Marcia isn't in 3-7 to 3-10.

[RNG Princess]

Mia can be rescue/dropped though ^_^ but I don't see how its much of an issue for the cavs anyway. The hawks are good and all but I hate how Laguz have to use up 1 turn or 2 just to transform and need constant monitoring with their gauge, is that counted against them btw?

[Anouleth]

Mia can be rescue/dropped though ^_^ but I don't see how its much of an issue for the cavs anyway. The hawks are good and all but I hate how Laguz have to use up 1 turn or 2 just to transform and need constant monitoring with their gauge, is that counted against them btw?

It doesn't really matter. Generally, units aren't going to be using their player phase combat every single turn. For example, in 3-10, you can't really engage any of the troops in the centre area on turn 1, and after they're killed, there's a big expanse of space in between you and Sergei's area that is a good place to top up their gauges.

[dondon151]

Gauge control is annoying, and it certainly sucks to not have any combat on turn 1, but the hawks at least are more than good enough to make up for it.

[Interceptor]

Mia can be rescue/dropped though ^_^ but I don't see how its much of an issue for the cavs anyway. The hawks are good and all but I hate how Laguz have to use up 1 turn or 2 just to transform and need constant monitoring with their gauge, is that counted against them btw?

Certainly it's counted against them in almost every comparison that has been made for the hawks so far, which I think is correct. The lack of first-thing offense hurts, and the decay keeps them from beasting through a pile of guys at will. This can deny them some flexibility with their Player Phase.

The hawks would be pretty hilarious as units if they had Formshift, even given the -MV they'd still have on the first Turn 1 action.

[Zkirsche]

beasting through a pile of guys at will.

I have to diagree, enemies simply don't come densely enough to make their gauge a massive hindrance. They can go through 5 enemies a turn, and with Reyson, they don't lose out on player phases when they need to gauge.

Heck, with 6 enemies a turn it takes them 5 turns for them to untransform anyway - and the map should really be over by then. Well, most of the time. (Edit: forgot turn losses, lol. But still, it takes a while and they're still great combat units. With 7 mov, blasting through enemies is also fairly difficult as well (I remember Anouleth saying Ike only fought liek once in chapter 11 :/)

Not to mention there are very few enemies right close to the start in many maps anyway. 3-8, 3-10 and 3-E are all such examples. So not transforming until turn 2-3 is acceptable in some cases.

Also, if we're ferrying Mia, whose going to do it? The ones who don't get doubled after rescuing someone, that's who (psst - the hawks!). Then of course we have to ferry Ike as well for her to be truly ownage (otherwise some durability issues).

Edited January 10, 2011 by Kevin

[Anouleth]

I have to diagree, enemies simply don't come densely enough to make their gauge a massive hindrance. They can go through 5 enemies a turn, and with Reyson, they don't lose out on player phases when they need to gauge.

Um, they kind of do. Reyson gives two player phases. If they grass, that expends one of their player phases, which could otherwise be used to kill enemies or whatever. That's not considering that Reyson could Vigor other people and give them a player phase that could be used for virtually anything that isn't 'stop myself from untransforming'.

Heck, with 6 enemies a turn it takes them 5 turns for them to untransform anyway - and the map should really be over by then. Well, most of the time. (Edit: forgot turn losses, lol. But still, it takes a while and they're still great combat units. With 7 mov, blasting through enemies is also fairly difficult as well (I remember Anouleth saying Ike only fought liek once in chapter 11 :/)

He actually engaged in combat zero times, but I see that more as a consequence of spending most of the map in Marcia's skirt because he needs to seize rather than because he has 7 move. For what it's worth, Boyd had four opportunities to engage in combat while Rolf had one (but it's rolf). Being able to eliminate Swordmasters at 1-2 range was actually very useful.

Not to mention there are very few enemies right close to the start in many maps anyway. 3-8, 3-10 and 3-E are all such examples. So not transforming until turn 2-3 is acceptable in some cases.

Also, if we're ferrying Mia, whose going to do it? The ones who don't get doubled after rescuing someone, that's who (psst - the hawks!). Then of course we have to ferry Ike as well for her to be truly ownage (otherwise some durability issues).

Anyone with Saviour or Sigrun who has nothing better to do anyway.

Plus, there are applications for 7 move units. For example, the entire south side of 3-10 is good for Mia. She has the 1-2 range necessary to clear out the Bishops and respectable performance against the Generals (if she's lucky and gets a +1atk coin on a forge, she can even 3HKO them with capped strength +A Ike)

[Zkirsche]

Um, they kind of do. Reyson gives two player phases. If they grass, that expends one of their player phases, which could otherwise be used to kill enemies or whatever. That's not considering that Reyson could Vigor other people and give them a player phase that could be used for virtually anything that isn't 'stop myself from untransforming'.

They still get player phases is what I meant ;)

Can otehr units be as good as the hawks are though? If we're blitzing through chapters, having teh hawks transformed will be a great advantage.

He actually engaged in combat zero times, but I see that more as a consequence of spending most of the map in Marcia's skirt because he needs to seize rather than because he has 7 move. For what it's worth, Boyd had four opportunities to engage in combat while Rolf had one (but it's rolf). Being able to eliminate Swordmasters at 1-2 range was actually very useful.

4 and 1 oppotrunities eh? Not a lot really.

Anyone with Saviour or Sigrun who has nothing better to do anyway.

Meh, I'm sure they'd rather have a different skill anyway. Thought you're right about Sigrun, I guess.

Plus, there are applications for 7 move units. For example, the entire south side of 3-10 is good for Mia. She has the 1-2 range necessary to clear out the Bishops and respectable performance against the Generals (if she's lucky and gets a +1atk coin on a forge, she can even 3HKO them with capped strength +A Ike)

I'm not saying there aren't, just not as many as a 9 mov unit.

[Anouleth]

4 and 1 oppotrunities eh? Not a lot really.

I could have gotten more, but I wanted to sink as much experience as possible into Titania so she would promote and double the Halberdiers and could start working towards 28 speed for Part 4. Hence giving her Provoke so the Paladins would all suicide into her. I could probably have done the same with Boyd, but not with Rolf, who lacks enemy phase.

Meh, I'm sure they'd rather have a different skill anyway. Thought you're right about Sigrun, I guess.

With saviour, 2nd tier fliers have 10 left over capacity, 3rd tier fliers have 15 left over capacity, and Janaff/Ulki have 20 less capacity, which is generally enough for whatever you want to do.

I'm not saying there aren't, just not as many as a 9 mov unit.

True. But there are applications that ranged units can have that laguz cannot.

[RNG Princess]

I think Haar is better off with Saviour because he can ferry Ike and kill things on the way ^_^, if the path is cleared Sigrun should have no trouble ferrying Mia. Talking about Sigrun having nothing better to do :3 I like having her land on the annoying traps so any of the paladins I'm using can cross safely.

Haar > Jannaf and Ulki because of ranged weapons but after Haar the Hawks and Titania are really good combatatants. I'd rather have Ulki and Jannaf fight/grass up while Sigrun does the smaller jobs like ferrying.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

I think Haar is better off with Saviour because he can ferry Ike and kill things on the way ^_^, if the path is cleared Sigrun should have no trouble ferrying Mia. Talking about Sigrun having nothing better to do :3 I like having her land on the annoying traps so any of the paladins I'm using can cross safely.

Yes, it's quite nice how Sigrun is exactly placed so that she can cover the pitfalls next to the Shine Barrier Halberdier on Turn 3.

To be honest, anyone with enough durability to survive a turn on the right hand side of the map and has flight can pick up Ike. Marcia, even Tanith are viable alternatives to Haar. I think Ulki also has enough weight to pick Ike up.

[Colonel M]

Hawks are better off not picking Ike up. I can't remember who I specifically used for that though, maybe it was Sigrun or Manith. Probably Mantih.

[Anouleth]

So um, is there any opposition to Marcia (T) going to the top of Upper Mid, above Zihark?

[dondon151]

Is there any opposition to Haar going above Ike?

[Zkirsche]

Was there any opposition to Haar going above Ike in the first place?

[Colonel M]

Is there any opposition on Reyson < Ike and Haar?

[Zkirsche]

Reyson IS below Ike and Haar <_< :P

[Colonel M]

Reyson IS below Ike and Haar <_< :P

I just felt left out. :_:

[Zkirsche]

I just felt left out. :_:

At least you'd probably get supports in Serenes Emblem. T_T

[RNG Princess]

^_^ I agree with Haar > Ike and Marcia(T) > Zihark. I <3 flier mobility.

[Colonel M]

At least you'd probably get supports in Serenes Emblem. T_T

Hey now, I didn't sign up to be a playable character, and I think I'd rather be a boss anyway. Ah well.

EDIT: Just so I don't go off-topic, what does this mean for Ike (T)? He still get to be in his own tent or is he going to be ransacked by Haar?

Edited January 12, 2011 by Tyranel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, with the name of his tier he doesn't necessarily need to drop. He really does make it easy mode. Even if he doesn't save more turns (currently in dispute), Haar doesn't have his immortality or godmoding. If you think Haar saves more turns, think of Ike's tier as more of a commentary rather than efficiency.

It's possible I may have to change that at some point, but Ike(T) really does have the stats of a god (outside of move).

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Well, with the name of his tier he doesn't necessarily need to drop. He really does make it easy mode. Even if he doesn't save more turns (currently in dispute), Haar doesn't have his immortality or godmoding. If you think Haar saves more turns, think of Ike's tier as more of a commentary rather than efficiency.

It's possible I may have to change that at some point, but Ike(T) really does have the stats of a god (outside of move).

@bold, yes he does.

Comparing both at base, Haar wins durability by 1 hp (Ike wins 2 res, but that's also making it harder to card Ike), except Haar has a 25% higher def growth and the option of early promotion, which ensures concrete durability win throughout part 3 since Ike gets cap blocked. True, Mia support exists, but have you ever had trouble with Haar dying anyway?

If all else fails, Physic Rhys has you covered.

On offense, Haar needs 3 levels or careful BEXP use to gain a point of speed, which when combined with wing and crown gives him the magic 25 AS which ensures doubling most everything, except SMs which Ike can't cover anyway, until Part 4. It's even likely realistic for Haar to proc speed again somewhere down the line to catch the few 22 AS enemies near the end. In addition, Ike is stuck with wind edges until 3-11, which means he tops out at 35 att for 1-2 range which hypothetically wouldn't even be enough to kill halbs in 3-P. Neither is Ike able to 2HKO generals, as 38 mt with Ettard at base still misses generals in 3-P and enemy growths outrun Ike's cap restricted strength.

Yes there's considering the cost of wing and crown, but seeing as using both gets you a character better than Ike without even mentioning flight, Haar wins.