OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

@bold, yes he does.

Comparing both at base, Haar wins durability by 1 hp (Ike wins 2 res, but that's also making it harder to card Ike), except Haar has a 25% higher def growth and the option of early promotion, which ensures concrete durability win throughout part 3 since Ike gets cap blocked. True, Mia support exists, but have you ever had trouble with Haar dying anyway?

If all else fails, Physic Rhys has you covered.

On offense, Haar needs 3 levels or careful BEXP use to gain a point of speed, which when combined with wing and crown gives him the magic 25 AS which ensures doubling most everything, except SMs which Ike can't cover anyway, until Part 4. It's even likely realistic for Haar to proc speed again somewhere down the line to catch the few 22 AS enemies near the end. In addition, Ike is stuck with wind edges until 3-11, which means he tops out at 35 att for 1-2 range which hypothetically wouldn't even be enough to kill halbs in 3-P. Neither is Ike able to 2HKO generals, as 38 mt with Ettard at base still misses generals in 3-P and enemy growths outrun Ike's cap restricted strength.

Yes there's considering the cost of wing and crown, but seeing as using both gets you a character better than Ike without even mentioning flight, Haar wins.

Ike still wins other areas. You realise that Ike can quite easily cap speed in tier 2? Meaning that yes, he can ORKO Swordmasters and his Adept proc% is on par with Mia. Except unlike Mia, Ike 3HKOes regular enemies with a Wind Edge and 3HKOes Generals with a Steel Blade, so he still 1-rounds ~55% of the time even just walking around with a Wind Edge. And he can BEXP up his luck and resistance as well so he doesn't even face crit from Thunder Sages after a while.

And then Ragnell shows up and Ike is 2HKOing everything except Generals at 2-range, as if it even mattered at this point (there are only 6 Generals in 3-11, five of which we don't even need to fight, and 3 Generals in 3-E). Sure, sink all the resources you want into Haar. Nothing gets around the fact he'll end up as a Tier 3 unit with 25 speed, which while good for Part 3 stinks in Part 4. Even with another Wing, you think he's going to reach 30AS for 4-3?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Ike still wins other areas. You realise that Ike can quite easily cap speed in tier 2? Meaning that yes, he can ORKO Swordmasters and his Adept proc% is on par with Mia. Except unlike Mia, Ike 3HKOes regular enemies with a Wind Edge and 3HKOes Generals with a Steel Blade, so he still 1-rounds ~55% of the time even just walking around with a Wind Edge. And he can BEXP up his luck and resistance as well so he doesn't even face crit from Thunder Sages after a while.

According to your playthrough, the only stretch Ike is able to double SMs is 3-11 and 3-E, which, while it is a place Ike beats Haar, does not make up for disadvantages elsewhere. Whatever ORKO percentage Ike pulls with Adept, it is still inferior to what Haar ORKO'ing 100% of the time.

And then Ragnell shows up and Ike is 2HKOing everything except Generals at 2-range, as if it even mattered at this point (there are only 6 Generals in 3-11, five of which we don't even need to fight, and 3 Generals in 3-E). Sure, sink all the resources you want into Haar. Nothing gets around the fact he'll end up as a Tier 3 unit with 25 speed, which while good for Part 3 stinks in Part 4. Even with another Wing, you think he's going to reach 30AS for 4-3?

Ike getting Ragnell only brings him up to par with Haar in combat at this point. As for 25 AS by part 4, every growth playthrough I've seen has Haar by at least 27 speed by 3-E, which secures all the pallies in 4-P, and if you want to give him another wing, he crushes 4-3 too. Regardless, 4-3 is only one chapter, and you can still give him resolve to great effect there.

Again, this is all without starting on the advantages of flight and move.

[Anouleth]

Ike getting Ragnell only brings him up to par with Haar in combat at this point. As for 25 AS by part 4, every growth playthrough I've seen has Haar by at least 27 speed by 3-E, which secures all the pallies in 4-P, and if you want to give him another wing, he crushes 4-3 too. Regardless, 4-3 is only one chapter, and you can still give him resolve to great effect there.

You just said that you'd be promoting Haar for 25AS. Most growth playthroughs don't do that because it shits all over his Part 4 offense. Hell, even his chance of having 26 speed in 3-E isn't that great.

And Ragnell would not bring Ike up to 'par' with Haar, he'd downright beat him. Haar has 29 strength, say, for 43 attack with a forged Hand Axe. Ike has 27 strength, along with a +attack support of his choosing for 47 attack with Ragnell, and doubles Swordmasters, as well as having a higher Adept proc%. Hell, if we promoted Haar early for 25AS like you suggested, he might even miss the double against Halberdiers and Warriors which can range from 22 speed to 24 speed at the end of Part 3.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You just said that you'd be promoting Haar for 25AS. Most growth playthroughs don't do that because it shits all over his Part 4 offense. Hell, even his chance of having 26 speed in 3-E isn't that great.

Have you been paying attention to any of the efficient playthroughs around here?

Of Soul's, Queen_Elincia's, Silith's, Int's, Colonel's, and nfl's playthroughs, all of them had Haar with at least 27 AS going at 3-E.

4 of them promoted by 3-4 and another promoted at 3-8, though Haar had hit 24 AS by 3-4, which incidentally all the other Haars also had by then and is even better. Soul was the only one to promote naturally, but I think he had 30 AS by then, which is weird.

And Ragnell would not bring Ike up to 'par' with Haar, he'd downright beat him. Haar has 29 strength, say, for 43 attack with a forged Hand Axe. Ike has 27 strength, along with a +attack support of his choosing for 47 attack with Ragnell, and doubles Swordmasters, as well as having a higher Adept proc%. Hell, if we promoted Haar early for 25AS like you suggested, he might even miss the double against Halberdiers and Warriors which can range from 22 speed to 24 speed at the end of Part 3.

Why does Haar have 29 strength in 3-11? 32 seems more appropriate, though 31 would suffice as much as Ike with Ragnell. Aside from this, Ike's wins elsewhere are minimal, since Adept is about 3% better and there are maybe 6 relevant SMs total left that Ike doubles.

[Anouleth]

Have you been paying attention to any of the efficient playthroughs around here?

Of Soul's, Queen_Elincia's, Silith's, Int's, Colonel's, and nfl's playthroughs, all of them had Haar with at least 27 AS going at 3-E.

4 of them promoted by 3-4 and another promoted at 3-8, though Haar had hit 24 AS by 3-4, which incidentally all the other Haars also had by then and is even better. Soul was the only one to promote naturally, but I think he had 30 AS by then, which is weird.

Soul had a speed transfer on Haar, if you didn't notice, and was speed blessed anyway (somehow Haar procced speed twice in three levels of BEXP). However, looking at the levels people had on Haar, they did generally have Haar high enough you would expect 27AS.

Why does Haar have 29 strength in 3-11? 32 seems more appropriate, though 31 would suffice as much as Ike with Ragnell. Aside from this, Ike's wins elsewhere are minimal, since Adept is about 3% better and there are maybe 6 relevant SMs total left that Ike doubles.

You're right about this one as well, I was underrating Haar's level gain.

[dondon151]

There's really no rush to promote Haar by 3-4 unless you want 25 free skill capacity, but you don't need both Savior and Celerity on that map.

But anyway, one can realistically get Haar to 24 spd at --/17 approximately. He probably wants a second Speedwings to reach 30 AS for 4-3 and 4-E-1 anyway.

[Anouleth]

There's really no rush to promote Haar by 3-4 unless you want 25 free skill capacity, but you don't need both Savior and Celerity on that map.

But anyway, one can realistically get Haar to 24 spd at --/17 approximately. He probably wants a second Speedwings to reach 30 AS for 4-3 and 4-E-1 anyway.

Problem is that other people can use the second Speedwing. Skrimir, for instance. You could probably get away with trying to have Haar reach 30AS naturally for 4-E-1. If it's possible to get Haar to level 4 or 5 in 3rd tier over Part 3, level 14 is doable in Part 4 with some BEXP and Paragon.

[Junkhead]

So are we going to let this die, or what?

I'm still waiting to see Aran getting lowered and maybe Edward getting a little bit higher for all the credit he gets for (Which isn't very much). And what should I make of the King of the Upper Mid? I don't want some pretty pink-haired girl on a flying pony dethroning him from that spot.

[Anouleth]

So are we going to let this die, or what?

I'm still waiting to see Aran getting lowered and maybe Edward getting a little bit higher for all the credit he gets for (Which isn't very much). And what should I make of the King of the Upper Mid?

Edward moving up doesn't really have that much to do with his 'early' chapters. Rather, it's that he deserves serious consideration as a long-term unit.

I don't want some pretty pink-haired girl on a flying pony dethroning him from that spot.

Tough. Marcia (T) kicks ass in two chapters before Part 4, and kicks his ass directly in Part 4. The only chapter in which Zihark truly kicks ass is 1-8. It's true that Zihark does have more chapters before Part 4. But overall, I think he's less valuable - and he loses in Part 4 itself.

[RNG Princess]

Pretty pink haired girl > Pretty blue haired boy

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Pretty pink haired girl > Pretty blue haired boy

We talking Jill? I'm in.

Jill is invaluable to the Pussy Brigade in Parts I and III, and WITH transfers she's unbeateable against the Fail Brigade's shitty enemies. Her only threat, Thunder Mages, are few and far between, and within a few levelups she'll laugh at them anyway because of her soon-to-be-stellar avoid. She's on the right track to max most of her stats by Endgame (and CERTAINLY the ones worth debating over).

[Radiant Dragon]

We talking Jill? I'm in.

Marcia and Zihark, I believe.

Also, do the DB even fight any Thunder Mage/Sages? Besides the boss of 1-8, where Jill can't even be deployed?

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I-6 there's a few of them. And I'm pretty sure in the Part III DB chapters there's some.

[Florete]

I-6 there's a few of them. And I'm pretty sure in the Part III DB chapters there's some.

Part 3 DB faces no magic at all. 3-6 and 3-13 are pure Laguz, 3-12 is all physical enemies.

1-E also has a few, but I think they only come as reinforcements at the start, so no one should ever be fighting them anyway unless you leave someone like Sothe behind to take them out from above.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Nonetheless that only helps Jill because her worst enemies won't exist in the rest of the DB chapters, and by the time she faces them again she'll dominate them by that point. Even Haar has issues with avoiding Thunder Sages for a while.

[Anouleth]

We talking Jill? I'm in.

Jill is invaluable to the Pussy Brigade in Parts I and III, and WITH transfers she's unbeateable against the Fail Brigade's shitty enemies. Her only threat, Thunder Mages, are few and far between, and within a few levelups she'll laugh at them anyway because of her soon-to-be-stellar avoid. She's on the right track to max most of her stats by Endgame (and CERTAINLY the ones worth debating over).

Jill has red hair. We were talking Marcia (T) going over Zihark.

Also, note that transfer characters are considered completely seperately from the character without transfers. Please read the rules on transfer characters before you bring them up.

[Yuglyoshi]

Edward moving up doesn't really have that much to do with his 'early' chapters. Rather, it's that he deserves serious consideration as a long-term unit.

Explain?? I can't see Edward being used past maybe 1-5.

[dondon151]

Edward is trash as a long term unit. Anouleth just thinks he's good because his Edward got spd blessed.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Edward's also up against two swordmasters with Earth affinity, while he's stuck with the pathetic Light affinity, which gives him Hit he doesn't need and 2 defense.

[Anouleth]

Edward is trash as a long term unit. Anouleth just thinks he's good because his Edward got spd blessed.

Edward has a chance to get speed blessed and be viable in the long term. The chance is not great and not really reliable, but we're using Edward in early chapters anyway, and even having a chance of being useful outside of 2 or 3 chapters is more than can be said for many people in Mid tier like Geoffrey, Kieran, Brom, or Calill. Possibly, it's more than can be said for even people in Upper Mid like Rolf (T), Boyd, or Aran.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Edward has a chance to get speed blessed and be viable in the long term. The chance is not great and not really reliable, but we're using Edward in early chapters anyway, and even having a chance of being useful outside of 2 or 3 chapters is more than can be said for many people in Mid tier like Geoffrey, Kieran, Brom, or Calill. Possibly, it's more than can be said for even people in Upper Mid like Rolf (T), Boyd, or Aran.

The issue with Edward is that he starts strong because he fights Bandits and Fighters for a decent part of Part I, or he'll fight Mages. But once III rolls around he's dealing with either Generals or Beast Laguz, which he won't hurt badly unless he gets Beastfoe and gets surrounded, and Wraths everything in sight once his HP gets low, but that's dangerous. Then in Part IV it's more Halberdiers, Sages, and Bishops no matter whose team he's on. Oh, and if he's in Tibarn's he has to fight Ferals including Dragons. He won't be One-Rounding any of those enemies unless he crits or Astras.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So how about that Haar > Ike?

[RNG Princess]

Eddie is not trash and he is being deployed after 1-5

1-6 is a rout he can help against a mage/peg/archer

1-6-2 nearby enemies theres not too many fighters available

1-7 Shove bot Sothe

1-8 Zihark is shove-botting Sothe, its a rout map and there are 2 wind mages and a fighter/bandit there has to be someone there to at least shield Micaiah. Volug can only reach one mage, i'm pretty sure Eddie (and Nolan) is used.

and Eddie >>> Aran, his prf weapon + better speed and growths. Aran is not even useful why is he higher than Eddie?

Sothe is also "trash" as a long term unit and look where he is at.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Junkhead]

Tough. Marcia (T) kicks ass in two chapters before Part 4, and kicks his ass directly in Part 4. The only chapter in which Zihark truly kicks ass is 1-8. It's true that Zihark does have more chapters before Part 4. But overall, I think he's less valuable - and he loses in Part 4 itself.

I find Zihark quite useful for those two Part 3 Routings of 3-6 & 3-12. He has innate Adept, so he can grab Resolve and a Max Mt/Crit Steel forge for a great damage output. His concrete defence is still bad, I know. That's why he'll also need a B suport with Nolan or Jill. But people here usually seem to give Adept to Nephenee/Ulki. :( (And Ulki just needs an Energy Drop and a support with Janaff for most of Part 3, anyway)

Edward's also up against two swordmasters with Earth affinity, while he's stuck with the pathetic Light affinity, which gives him Hit he doesn't need and 2 defense.

He's not bad because he has to comepete with other two of his class. And hell, he doesn't even compete with Lucia. The Earth affinity isn't quite an excuse when you're likely to get a C support by Endgame with a character that's mostly stuck to healing (Elincia).

The issue with Edward is that he starts strong because he fights Bandits and Fighters for a decent part of Part I, or he'll fight Mages.

@Bolded: In Normal Mode, maybe. But in HM, he can't even do that well against those enemies. In fact, those are rather the toughest enemies for him because they 2HKO him forever at high Hit rates. Weapon Triangle doesn't exist in HM.

The rest: Mages aren't even that common in Part 1.

But once III rolls around he's dealing with either Generals or Beast Laguz, which he won't hurt badly unless he gets Beastfoe and gets surrounded, and Wraths everything in sight once his HP gets low, but that's dangerous.

Generals aren't everywhere at Part 3 either. It's Halberdiers and Warriors. And only for one chapter. But yes, he's mostly fighting laguz who 2HKO him at high Hit rates, much like Part 1. But now he's redeemable by having an A support with Nolan and Wrath/Resolve at his side.

Then in Part IV it's more Halberdiers, Sages, and Bishops no matter whose team he's on. Oh, and if he's in Tibarn's he has to fight Ferals including Dragons. He won't be One-Rounding any of those enemies unless he crits or Astras.

Bishops are the least common enemies. And Sages, like Part 1 Mages, aren't everywhere either.

Bolded: And? Alot of people don't 1RKO those without skills. Even Tibarn can't kill Dragons without Tear, and some Tigers with huge HP. That doesn't mean Edward is any worse because you decide to take more turns killing everything there. It's mostly a straight-forward map where Tibarn or some other flier goes for Izuka's blood. 1-2 turns.

Aran is not even useful why is he higher than Eddie?

It has to be because people apparently still keep that "The DB really need defence" mentality they had back when FE10 came out. We need a tank in chapters that aren't even Defend chapters and that we're supposed to go through quickly.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Soul

[RNG Princess]

I think bits and pieces of this tier list need to be fixed or explained ^^'

If anything speed is just as important as defense and str. You can't just forge speed or support someone to gain speed, it grows on its own.

Exp gain is slower and stricter in Hard Mode, BEXP is limited for the DB especially. If Eddie with 12 base speed is having issues doubling enemies, Aran is going to have a harder time.

Idk what level Aran is expected to be in Part 3 but a 20/1 Aran is going to be doubled always by cats in 3-6 and he will have around the same speed as tigers. Ok so he beats Eddie's 20/1 str and has better defense but Eddie is not handicapped by his speed since he's at least not being doubled and will soon double cats.

Even in Part 1 Eddie > Aran. What does Aran ever do better than Eddie? He dies less? Aran has crappy luck enemies tend to have higher crit on him. Eddie doesn't have hit issues and isn't handicapped by speed, he doesn't have to worry about enemies doubling him. I know Eddie's durability sucks but Aran is not much better. You have Aran gaining speed every 3 levels and Eddie gaining them every 2 levels at a higher base. Forging fixes Eddie's offense and supports can help his durability but only babysitting Aran helps his speed, he's more of a hindrance than Eddie I just don't see why or how he's higher his speed sucks.

Enemies in 1-4, 1-5 have 10AS the least and they go higher past 1-6 Aran can probably only double enemy priests and pegs in 1-6. Aran with his "defense" gains no prf weapon, has to worry about enemies landing crits on him, has to worry about not doubling, has hit issues and yet he's considered better than Eddie who is at least useful throughout 1-P, 1-1, 1-2, and probably 1-3 I just don't see it.

If its his "potential" I'm sure Eddie has more. Aran needs more babysitting than Eddie, I think he should drop below Eddie. I also think more characters need to drop/raise. Brom has how many chapters of usability? 2-1, 2-2, and 2-E where he is decent for 2 of them and behaves as a wall for 2-E. He has no potential for Part 3, he'll just hinder progress. No speed, no mobility some of the lower middle characters are better on a larger scale (Eddie ^_^, and Nealuchi).

If potential is used to boost a character like Aran why isn't it used for all CRKs or Sigrun? With some babysitting they get good results as well.

Also Rolf, how is he superior to Leonardo and Ilyana? Rolfy is dealing helpful chipping but Past 3-1 he's lackluster. He's gaining experience only on player phase unless he's wielding a crossbow which is causing him to deal lower damage. Raising him would be a lot slower than raising anyone else who can at least face an enemy. I think he should drop below Ilyana and Leonardo. A noob Leonardo at least thanks to his prf bow becomes decent in 3-6 dealing helpful damage and saving your team on 3-13 by killing those hawks with ballistae adding up with his Part 1 contributions i'm sure in a max efficient PoV Leo > Rolf.

Oliver should be at the bottom of bottom tier He offers nothing necessary, fortify is taken by Micaiah and could be performed by anyone else with S rank. If he is deployed you have another unit who is doubled by everyone, has no real combat, and can perform another fortify which should be done at the end of all fighters moving/attacking that is un-necessary. Ok so he can deal one physic or silence an enemy in 4-5 but that would be situational. All the other bottom tiered characters at least do something and have some potential.

My last argument is that Pelleas belongs in bottom tier. The use for Pelleas is situational and has no potential for endgame. He costs a forge for a job that could be done (this is just what I think I've yet to prove it) by other scrubs like Lucia. killing 2 enemy reinforcements, his next chapter is more luck based only if Izuka reinforces a dragon and somehow he is considered superior to Meg and Astrid when their usage is not situational but actually beneficial; he belongs in the same tier as them.

I think availability is worthed too high for some units who don't even use it well, or it just contradicts itself on some units (Ilyana vs Rolf). OH I forgot to mention my Kyza and Lethe argument but i'll do that later ^^'

Edited March 20, 2011 by Queen_Elincia