OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Ena vs Nasir is better 4-E-1 and 4-E-3 against better 4-E-5. And Nasir's 4-E-5 is better, without question. Not only can we get Ena's Tide from a different source if necessary, we are almost always going to have 34-38AS units. Seraph Knights, Sentinels, Reavers, and Marksmen all fall into that category. There are also some Royals that may not reach 39AS, namely Nailah/Caineghis/Giffca, and there's Ike as well to think of.

[RNG Princess]

I'm a little unsure on the Ena > Nasir thing due to not always having the same team, but I agree with the others. Though Fiona will never be trained as a combat unit in HM. I mean, she has awful bases for NM as it is. There's no hope for her in HM.

Yes her combat is awful, it was mediocre at best in the PT I once did. In that PT she required all sorts of luck, and cost alot of resources, BEXP, specific spoonfeeding and skills. I was assuming that once she got going she would be decent enough. Kind of like Astrid was in that RD Transfer draft you participated in. I was just assuming though because they're the same class but I didn't keep in mind that Fiona takes alot more effort and I forgot to mention all those costs. So I might as well not include her combat into the argument ^^' it can be possible but takes alot of effort making it near impossible. Thats why I didn't bother training her in the KP HM draft.

@Anouleth, is one chapter worth more than 2 chapters? ^^' I think they should be right next to each other anyhow because if we have a team full of characters that can double then she's worth more otherwise he is.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Florete]

Yes her combat is awful, it was mediocre at best in the PT I once did. In that PT she required all sorts of luck, and cost alot of resources, BEXP, specific spoonfeeding and skills. I was assuming that once she got going she would be decent enough. Kind of like Astrid was in that RD Transfer draft you participated in. I was just assuming though because they're the same class but I didn't keep in mind that Fiona takes alot more effort and I forgot to mention all those costs. So I might as well not include her combat into the argument ^^' it can be possible but takes alot of effort making it near impossible. Thats why I didn't bother training her in the KP HM draft.

A few things should be noted here:

1. This is a tier list, not a draft. Drafts give weaker units much more of a chance by way of not being able to use much else. Neither Astrid nor Fiona are going to be close to worth training seriously in a tier/efficiency setting since so many more units are available and better.

2. That was the Transfer Draft and Astrid had a pretty epic transfer. HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res. HP, her second highest growth, was 2 away from capping instead of 7. Res, her third highest, was 4 away instead of 6. Her new base Spd allowed her to actually double some enemies. Then I gave her Blossom and plenty of kills in 3-11, getting her to a good point for promotion to start wrecking 3-E. It was pretty awesome and fun, but not so efficient, especially when you consider all the resets required to get her those transfers.

[RNG Princess]

A few things should be noted here:

1. This is a tier list, not a draft. Drafts give weaker units much more of a chance by way of not being able to use much else. Neither Astrid nor Fiona are going to be close to worth training seriously in a tier/efficiency setting since so many more units are available and better.

2. That was the Transfer Draft and Astrid had a pretty epic transfer. HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res. HP, her second highest growth, was 2 away from capping instead of 7. Res, her third highest, was 4 away instead of 6. Her new base Spd allowed her to actually double some enemies. Then I gave her Blossom and plenty of kills in 3-11, getting her to a good point for promotion to start wrecking 3-E. It was pretty awesome and fun, but not so efficient, especially when you consider all the resets required to get her those transfers.

^^' Of course I realize thats its just that tier wise Fiona's combat falls way behind everyone including Astrid. BTW do you think Astrid(T) is comparable to Makalov or would that be inefficient? I noticed that Astrid(T) has 30MT with a silver bow in 3-9, she only falls behind 1 str, 1 speed, 1 range, and defense but gains CEXP alot faster even with blossom on her. Its just a thought I'm not suggesting bringing her close to him yet ^^'. Edited August 1, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Interceptor]

Lyre tier is kind of silly. Sure, she's completely hopeless as a combatant, but in order for someone to be worse than the likes of Oliver, I think that they would have to instantly cause a Game Over when deployed on a map.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah I agree, Lyre should be at least in the same tier as Fiona. She's not really good for anything except Shoving, but Fiona's really not good for anything either.

[Fenrir]

Fiona goes into Lyres tier. not the other way around.

[Rewjeo]

Doesn't Fiona at least not have to compete to get deployed?

[Zkirsche]

I'd just like to say I was against the lyre tier from the start and still am. Having 0.0000000000001% utility is not >>>>>>>>>>>> 0 utility.

[Dark Sage]

Well to be fair, Fiona has vague forms of usefulness in her chapters. Emphasis on vague, but I can think of a few.

In 1-7, she can help ferry Micaiah to the seize square and Queen Elincia managed to do it with Fiona in 6 turns. In 1-E, she can pick up a unit like the BK and give him to Jill or Nailah. In 3-6, she can chuck javelins to lower gauge and has canto to keep her safe, plus she's useful for item ferrying and trading shenanigans. In 3-13, another warm body is always good for holding the line or for picking up and moving an armor to an appropriate spot?

I dunno. I find that more useful than just shoving, especially when Fiona doesn't have to fight for a deployment slot.

[Zkirsche]

In 1-7, she can help ferry Micaiah to the seize square and Queen Elincia managed to do it with Fiona in 6 turns.

Is that from a draft? Because drafts are quite different to normal efficient PT's.

In 1-E, she can pick up a unit like the BK and give him to Jill or Nailah.

How much weight would you put on this though?

In 3-6, she can chuck javelins to lower gauge and has canto to keep her safe, plus she's useful for item ferrying and trading shenanigans.

I dunno what items we want to ferry. Nothing comes to mind except maybe physic between micaiah and laura.

Also, her javelin use ends if we have any sort of aggression for 3-6 because she can't move past the first island. And again, how much is all this worth?

In 3-13, another warm body is always good for holding the line or for picking up and moving an armor to an appropriate spot?

See above.

I dunno. I find that more useful than just shoving, especially when Fiona doesn't have to fight for a deployment slot.

My problem is not Fiona > Lyre, but Fiona >>> Lyre.

[Anouleth]

Is that from a draft? Because drafts are quite different to normal efficient PT's.

In both a draft and a normal playthrough, it's necessary to do so for a 5 turn completion. Now, it's something that Jill can also do, but it's still somewhat helpful.

I dunno what items we want to ferry. Nothing comes to mind except maybe physic between micaiah and laura.

Well, he was probably more talking about trading different items for someone to equip; say Nolan kills a Laguz with a Crossbow, she can put Tarvos at the top of his inventory. Or Sothe weakens a laguz with a knife forge and she puts the Beast Killer at the top of his inventory. Or whatever.

My problem is not Fiona > Lyre, but Fiona >>> Lyre.

Well, the tier gaps are largely arbitrary anyway. It's just a matter of opinion whether you think that two units "deserve" a tier gap in between them, whether being able to help a tiny amount is significantly better than not being able to help at all.

[Zkirsche]

In both a draft and a normal playthrough, it's necessary to do so for a 5 turn completion. Now, it's something that Jill can also do, but it's still somewhat helpful.

I'm not gonna lie, that's actually pretty damn useful. It can free up Jill for more combat and besides, being one of two units that can do something is, to be perfectly fair, quite a bit better than whatever Lyre does.

Well, he was probably more talking about trading different items for someone to equip; say Nolan kills a Laguz with a Crossbow, she can put Tarvos at the top of his inventory. Or Sothe weakens a laguz with a knife forge and she puts the Beast Killer at the top of his inventory. Or whatever.

I couldn't see any other definition for "item ferrying" other than taking an item from one unit and giving it to another.

Well, the tier gaps are largely arbitrary anyway. It's just a matter of opinion whether you think that two units "deserve" a tier gap in between them, whether being able to help a tiny amount is significantly better than not being able to help at all.

Tiers are useful, because they help gauge the difference between two unit's prowess. Otherwise we might as well erase tiers altogether and just make a straightforward list.

[Interceptor]

Just to be clear, for the benefit of people who haven't been paying attention to tier lists for the last hundred years, the purpose of tier breaks is generally to demarcate a clear/significant difference between various groups of units.

In unrelated news, I don't know what kind of multi-million-dollar electron microscope was used to argue Lyre into a full tier below "I throw javelins to reduce laguz gauge in 3-6" Fiona, or "I might 10HKO something if you baby me and hand over the Silencer" Astrid, or "it's actually kind of a pain in the ass to even recruit me and I get doubled by Generals" Oliver, but I'd like to borrow it. I have two objects in my hand that are invisible to the naked eye, but I think that one might be a micrometere smaller than the other, and I'd like to find out.

XOXOXO

-Interceptor

[RNG Princess]

Lyre grows into a combat unit faster than Fiona, and its also cheaper (BEXP + Blossom). Thats what I experienced though in a hm draft, but both can use cards I guess. However this is an efficiency tier so thats out of the equation. Basically the only argument why there is a tier gap between Fiona & Lyre is because Fio has utility/minimal use if deployed compared to Lyre who shouldn't be deployed, but by that logic Oliver should move down there too. I'm not sure if it deserves a tier gap but I believe Lyre and Kurth belong below Fiona.

[Zanarkin]

Oliver costs more to be recruited than he does for the team.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[Anouleth]

Just to be clear, for the benefit of people who haven't been paying attention to tier lists for the last hundred years, the purpose of tier breaks is generally to demarcate a clear/significant difference between various groups of units.

I can't really say that the following pairs of units are clearly better/worse than each other:

Shinon and Zihark

Rolf T and Marcia

Soren and Brom

Vika and Lethe

In unrelated news, I don't know what kind of multi-million-dollar electron microscope was used to argue Lyre into a full tier below "I throw javelins to reduce laguz gauge in 3-6" Fiona, or "I might 10HKO something if you baby me and hand over the Silencer" Astrid, or "it's actually kind of a pain in the ass to even recruit me and I get doubled by Generals" Oliver, but I'd like to borrow it. I have two objects in my hand that are invisible to the naked eye, but I think that one might be a micrometere smaller than the other, and I'd like to find out.

It's just that in comparison to "nothing" (which is what Lyre/Oliver bring to the table), Astrid and Fiona's "something" is a significant difference even if it's very small. Or, to borrow your analogy, it's the difference between an extremely tiny object and no object at all.

If anything I think that Fiona probably needs to move up a tier rather than down. Her rescue-dropping utility is probably just as significant as Pelleas maybe hitting something with Fenrir. Certainly, I think it's better than Kurthnaga being outperformed by Wardwood tiles.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Anouleth

[-Cynthia-]

Pellas's 4-2 offense really isn't so terrible, he can chip something so Lucia or Kieran or whatever random filler we bring along can KO reinforcements while Tibarn actually clears the map.

[Psych]

Doesn't Oliver at least have Staff utility? He can use Rescue or Fortify in the last chapter for AOE attacks.

[Zanarkin]

Fortify can be used by Micaiah, and Rescue can be used by elincia, Mist, Rhys, Laura, and the other Mages, who are infinately more rewarding to use and don't need to have a frail character move all the way over there, risking himself, just to get Oliver.

[Fenrir]

I hate bottom tier debates -_-

Oliver costs more to be recruited than he does for the team.

This is true, and why I have only recruited him once.

[RNG Princess]

I like them because theyre easier ^^'

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Fortify can be used by Micaiah, and Rescue can be used by elincia, Mist, Rhys, Laura, and the other Mages, who are infinately more rewarding to use and don't need to have a frail character move all the way over there, risking himself, just to get Oliver.

Not to mention basically all of these characters have better Magic than Oliver, so better range. Also Micky has Sacrifice which eliminates Status conditions, so she's a free Restore staff with no item slot.

[Lord Raven]

And therefore you do an amazing job of justifying just why Elincia, Mist, Rhys, Laura, and every other mage is a better character than Oliver, doing nothing to argue against his tier placement.

Seriously, why the fuck do people keep bringing up this "compare to others who do the same thing" fallacy when people end up saying the exact same thing in response each time? It's irritating.

Oliver costs more to be recruited than he does for the team.

If recruitment costs were truly a reason to hamper someone's tier placement, then you wouldn't see Geitz in Upper Mid.

I'm not saying Oliver's good, i'm just saying everyone's logic sucks. I'd rather take an endgame healer than whatever Meg/Fiona/Lyre can do (but Lyre shouldn't be a whole tier below Meg and Fiona because at least BEXP can salvage Lyre; Meg/Fiona will have a tough time even with BEXP, considering Lyre gets +5 or +6 from every BEXP level up if you so desire whereas Meg/Fiona will always get +3, and Lyre caps some stats easier allowing for better BEXP abuse and yeah I mean I'm not sure where I'm going with this but Meg/Fiona are almost completely unusable on HM). I'm not even sure what Oliver's doing below Kurth, considering Kurth only really... blocks Dragons in one chapter (I'm pretty sure he gets 2-3HKO'd everywhere without contributing ANYTHING to the team), and I don't even think that's very useful considering the target for the dragon chapter is like 3 turns or something low.

Oliver's healing comes in handy whenever, Fortify or not. In fact, being an extra person existing to actually do all of those things is a boon in itself.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

And therefore you do an amazing job of justifying just why Elincia, Mist, Rhys, Laura, and every other mage is a better character than Oliver, doing nothing to argue against his tier placement.

Seriously, why the fuck do people keep bringing up this "compare to others who do the same thing" fallacy when people end up saying the exact same thing in response each time? It's irritating.

Normally I'd agree with you, but there's only so many Staff bots we need. Micaiah's forced, and Elincia is just plain better if we need a second, not to mention Lehran in 4-E-5. I can't think of a single reason he should be deployed in Endgame. Kurth is forced, so I can see that as an argument for him > Oliver, but I'm not going to justify that any farther.

The fact is though, that he can use a staff, so that should put him above Fiona and Lyre (who can't really do anything), but I can't see him above Astrid being one of a limited number of units we have in 2-3 and 3-9.

I also don't think Lyre is so bad that she deserves to be a tier below Fiona and Oliver, but...

Edited August 4, 2011 by Radiant Kitty