OMG it's a tier list

[Rewjeo]

And what are they doing with that deployment? When they enter a map do they have any potential to do anything, at all?

Well, they have the ability to not hurt us by being deployed.

[Lord Raven]

It's got a hell of a lot to do with what your arguing though.

You've yet to show me how, exactly. I'm arguing him above shit like Meg, Kurth, Astrid, Lyre, etc. He still has that utility that is indeed situational but is better than anything those guys are doing (especially because Kurth gets killed whenever enemies come in contact with him on 4E1 and 4E2, 4E3 is irrelevant and 4E4/4E5 he exists to sit there and take it like a man and do nothing, most importantly). "If you need one, take x person" has no bearing on how good Oliver is as a unit, it merely has bearing in their relative tier placements which are already as they currently are. The purpose of a tier list is to compare unit choices upon the situation where they are deployed, not upon how likely you are to deploy someone.

Chip Damage, and they have more maps to do it than Oliver's 4-4.

Astrid does chip in two chapters. She doesn't even double armors in her first chapter (these are unpromoted armors) and her chip is only single digits in her first chapter. Her chip is even worse in the other chapters she's deployable in.

What the flying fuck does Meg even chip? What about Kurthnaga? Kurthnaga doesn't even have the durability to chip.

What hurts Oliver is that endgame is dependant on units that can kill enemies better and faster, which he doesn't do. He'd just be sitting around waiting for a right moment to finally use a staff and to top it off he fights for a deployment slot.

Honestly, this is also sorta irrelevant as an argument, considering how a tier list still judges their rank as if no other competition exists (save for items because there's only a couple of those per playthrough) for that slot and optimal deployment outside of the slot that is being used. "Using a slot" is only finding arguments against using Oliver, it's not at all a good argument against him.

about the comment on Kyza, many of the arguments that hurt Lyre affect him too. Like he brings nothing to the table or he shouldn't be deployed etc but Kyza is dealing better damage compared to Lyre and he has good gauge. Apparantly Kyza can use a speedwing nicely. Also both Lyre and Kyza can use the BEXP + Blossom method to have them fight better, which is alot easier than fixing Fiona at least.

Actually... you mention a speedwing, I'm fairly sure that Lyre can use a Speedwing and Energy Drop nicely. I don't think either are using them, though...

Well, they have the ability to not hurt us by being deployed.

This has never been a point in anyone's favor, ever. Forced deployment doesn't do anything for characters that don't do anything to begin with. What are Kurthnaga exactly doing with that forced deployment slot, huh? Sitting in the back, jacking off on enemies, making sure they're too disgusting to touch him? Cause even if he isn't taking a deployment slot, he's doing absolutely nothing. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

"If you need one, take x person" has no bearing on how good Oliver is as a unit, it merely has bearing in their relative tier placements which are already as they currently are. The purpose of a tier list is to compare unit choices upon the situation where they are deployed, not upon how likely you are to deploy someone.

Except Micaiah and Lehran are forced. Sure if we needed an extra staffbot Oliver would do, but we don't.

Actually... you mention a speedwing, I'm fairly sure that Lyre can use a Speedwing and Energy Drop nicely. I don't think either are using them, though...

Lyre shouldn't need a Speedwing. If we're using her, we can afford to give her some BEXP for Speed. However, even with the Energy Drop and enough Speed to double, she'll still barely do any damage to enemies and have no 2-range and Cat gauge.

[Fenrir]

You've yet to show me how, exactly. I'm arguing him above shit like Meg, Kurth, Astrid, Lyre, etc. He still has that utility that is indeed situational but is better than anything those guys are doing (especially because Kurth gets killed whenever enemies come in contact with him on 4E1 and 4E2, 4E3 is irrelevant and 4E4/4E5 he exists to sit there and take it like a man and do nothing, most importantly). "If you need one, take x person" has no bearing on how good Oliver is as a unit, it merely has bearing in their relative tier placements which are already as they currently are. The purpose of a tier list is to compare unit choices upon the situation where they are deployed, not upon how likely you are to deploy someone.

@ bold I'm guessing the rest of your rant has something to do with it...

Astrid does chip in two chapters. She doesn't even double armors in her first chapter (these are unpromoted armors) and her chip is only single digits in her first chapter. Her chip is even worse in the other chapters she's deployable in.

What the flying fuck does Meg even chip? What about Kurthnaga? Kurthnaga doesn't even have the durability to chip.

Still counts! Astrid may suck balls, but at the bottom it's about who sucks the biggest balls.

Opposing forces. He has 2 range, meaning that he has the durability to chip.

Actually... you mention a speedwing, I'm fairly sure that Lyre can use a Speedwing and Energy Drop nicely. I don't think either are using them, though...

Just look at their bases, let's leave the Lyre Kyza argument there...

Edited August 5, 2011 by Fenrir

[RNG Princess]

Meg and Astrid do have more than chipping though, they're like Fiona (utility based) I can't think of anything noteworthy Kurth can do though.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Lord Raven]

Except Micaiah and Lehran are forced. Sure if we needed an extra staffbot Oliver would do, but we don't.

Lehran is only in the final chapter anyway. I also brought up Matrona to help with Biorhythm (needs two arms scrolls but you have shittons of money) v_v

Lyre shouldn't need a Speedwing. If we're using her, we can afford to give her some BEXP for Speed. However, even with the Energy Drop and enough Speed to double, she'll still barely do any damage to enemies and have no 2-range and Cat gauge.

Same base speed as Kyza, right? Can easily apply the argument to both and compare performances. Kyza's better, I know.

Still counts! Astrid may suck balls, but at the bottom it's about who sucks the biggest balls.

Single digit chip only matters if it's doing *just* enough to help others ORKO instead of 2RKO. You haven't shown me how this chip is useful.

Also, 23 atk is doing ~6-9 damage to the average enemy in 2-3 and it's actually much worse in 3-9. And it goes even further downhill once the non-Geof CRKs rejoin the Mercs. At best she changes EARLY 3HKOs in 2-3 to 2HKOs (and I doubt that she'll be doing more than a couple, she can't hit back on enemy phase and she needs to get the fuck out of there if she doesn't want to be attacked) but I doubt she's doing much to affect 3-9.

Now, tell me what chipping Meg will be doing. Wind Edge chipping? With all of 16 atk and 70 something accuracy?

Opposing forces. He has 2 range, meaning that he has the durability to chip.

Once again, how much does this chipping even help? Once he gets attacked he's fucked, and he needs to go to some degree of frontlines (4-E-1 is a very open chapter) in order to actually pull off this chip. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Dark Sage]

I guess they can shove? And none of them are fighting for a deployment slot? Night Tide might be helpful?

I dunno. I think Oliver is a little better than Lyre, but by such a miniscule amount. It really takes a lot to be more useless than Sothe in Endgame.

[RNG Princess]

Astrid can always take an ams scroll and silver bow to fix her chipping in 3-9. Then she can pick the silencer or forge and the para-blossom pair and she'll have very good offense eventually in a short amount of time too. Yet she's probably not being deployed because better units exist and what she offers is initially inferior to them. Isn't it a similar case to Oliver? Especially since combat >>> Staff utility in endgame?

Edited August 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Radiant Dragon]

Astrid has a chance due to the amount of deployment slots we have for Part 4, and being outclassed as a combat unit (you can still chip to let units avoid counters or clean up kills after untimely misses, etc.) is nowhere near as bad as being outclassed as a staffbot (a redundant staffbot can do nothing of importance).

[Lord Raven]

Oliver's still doing better, staff-wise, than Micaiah if you once again wanna go for comparisons. People actually continuously mentioned this but it was ignored each time. He actually has better stats than she's likely to have by 4-E, and I'm pretty sure his base magic is higher than Elincia's magic cap.

Astrid can always take an ams scroll and silver bow to fix her chipping in 3-9. Then she can pick the silencer or forge and the para-blossom pair and she'll have very good offense eventually in a short amount of time too. Yet she's probably not being deployed because better units exist and what she offers is initially inferior to them. Isn't it a similar case to Oliver? Especially since combat >>> Staff utility in endgame?

Huh... this does improve her chip, but it's not doing enough to improve it considering her max damage output is 13 damage... which doesn't change any frontline 2HKOs at all.

Astrid has a chance due to the amount of deployment slots we have for Part 4, and being outclassed as a combat unit (you can still chip to let units avoid counters or clean up kills after untimely misses, etc.) is nowhere near as bad as being outclassed as a staffbot (a redundant staffbot can do nothing of importance).

Even if she gets like 5-6 level ups, she does a max of 13 damage to Sages. She does around 8-10 damage to the average Paladin, and this is all with a Silencer. Like half the enemies have 1-2 range as is, which Astrid gets absolutely reamed by. Unless you can provide some hard numbers I've got nothing to agree with you on, and this actually makes her exactly as situational as Oliver except she can only shave turncounts in the occasional fuckup whereas Oliver can use a Rescue staff to bring a powerful unit TO him when/if needed. That's not "occasional fuckup," that's worked into a strategy easily. At least, the way you're justifying it. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

Oliver's still doing better, staff-wise, than Micaiah if you once again wanna go for comparisons. People actually continuously mentioned this but it was ignored each time. He actually has better stats than she's likely to have by 4-E, and I'm pretty sure his base magic is higher than Elincia's magic cap.

Directly, yes. But Micaiah is forced. That is the main argument here. He isn't better enough to the point where it is a significant advantage to choose him instead of another fighter with Micaiah already present.

[Lord Raven]

That's already covered by the fact that he's low tier. It still doesn't answer why he's below Kurthnaga or why he should stay above all the units below him (which I agree to, by the way).

[Florete]

That's already covered by the fact that he's low tier. It still doesn't answer why he's below Kurthnaga or why he should stay above all the units below him (which I agree to, by the way).

Low/Bottom tier arguments are just hard in general. We basically have to judge Oliver's value as a 2nd/3rd string healer against crappy units who mostly don't share availability and a unit who's only use is standing next to other units for a stat boost. Not the easiest comparison to make.

[RNG Princess]

I think Kurth belongs below everyone he can't really do anything

[Shadow Mir]

I think Kurth belongs below everyone he can't really do anything

I say that him being below Lyre is hard to stomach, since Lyre can't do anything. At all.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Radiant Dragon]

I think Oliver deserves to be higher than Lyre, Fiona and maybe Meg (she has a minor semblance of potential, though). I don't see him above Astrid or Pelleas, and am undecided about Kurthnaga (neither do anything useful, but Kurth is forced into Endgame while Oliver only makes Endgame harder by knocking out a combat unit).

[Lord Raven]

Low/Bottom tier arguments are just hard in general. We basically have to judge Oliver's value as a 2nd/3rd string healer against crappy units who mostly don't share availability and a unit who's only use is standing next to other units for a stat boost. Not the easiest comparison to make.

It's not that hard. You assume optimal deployment, except the final slot is the low tier character in question. That's how I've been arguing it.

Setting a more concrete standard with these tier lists is probably kind of an issue too considering each person is arguing on a different system of beliefs, and that kind of tangles things up heavily. In which case, using my set of arguments, Oliver is actually assumed as only a 2nd string staff user (not healer) to Micaiah (and actually a superior staff user).

[-Cynthia-]

Astrid's chip damage is actually sort of useful for 3-9 because the CRKs don't necessarily combine for 2HKOs very well.

[Radiant Dragon]

In which case, using my set of arguments, Oliver is actually assumed as only a 2nd string staff user (not healer) to Micaiah (and actually a superior staff user).

I honestly doubt Oliver's slightly higher Magic is going to allow him to do anything Micaiah can't. In addition, a 2nd string staffbot (not healer) is nigh useless in 4-E. We don't need more than one person to use Physic, Rescue, Fortify etc.

[Lord Raven]

You're actually right there, but it also kinda blows that a thirds of the enemies have ranged weapons which isn't good at all for Astrid unless you want to hamper her offense with a Longbow... Though how she's getting a Silencer in 3-9 is beyond me (Silver Bow is only 1 less point so its a non issue).

I honestly doubt Oliver's slightly higher Magic is going to allow him to do anything Micaiah can't. In addition, a 2nd string staffbot (not healer) is nigh useless in 4-E. We don't need more than one person to use Physic, Rescue, Fortify etc.

She's still not as good as Oliver at anything in the endgame, and my main point was still that Oliver is better than Micaiah and he may as well be the second string staffbot. As dondon's 0% growth shows, at any rate, you can afford to use a bunch of units that won't contribute much in 4-E-1. It still has no bearing on Oliver's quality that he's outclassed as I keep saying but everyone keeps ignoring because the fact that he's low tier covers that Oliver is obviously not doing *that* much better than Micaiah. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[RNG Princess]

well he has a point though if Oliver is deployed he can at least do something, its better than Kurth who is doing nothing at all except maybe shove or give defensesive boost

@Mercenery raven oh I meant silencer/forge for 3-11 ^^' sorry lol

Edited August 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Radiant Dragon]

You're actually right there, but it also kinda blows that a thirds of the enemies have ranged weapons which isn't good at all for Astrid unless you want to hamper her offense with a Longbow... Though how she's getting a Silencer in 3-9 is beyond me (Silver Bow is only 1 less point so its a non issue).

The thing is though, having a use in 2 maps (at least) is better than having no use at all for 5.

[Lord Raven]

I keep mentioning he has use in whatever certain strategies you decide to use in the first 2 of those 5, he can boost everyone's fuckin biorhythm to max with two arm scrolls (you have enough money to give him two arms scrolls by that point) on top of *extra* healing utility. I'm aware Micaiah has the same benefit but that is not the point that I am making, the nature of the tier list covers that argument already. Astrid's use is okay early chip in chapter 2-3 (you'd want to kill as few units as possible in that chapter anyway since the EXP you're getting tends not to make up for the BEXP you're missing out on) and in 3-9 she's still not a very good chipper.

@Mercenery raven oh I meant silencer/forge for 3-11 ^^' sorry lol

Yeah I figured that at some point... I'm not sure how this puts her over Oliver considering the same arguments against Oliver apply against Astrid.

[Radiant Dragon]

I keep mentioning he has use in whatever certain strategies you decide to use in the first 2 of those 5,

No, he doesn't. More than one staffbot is redundant in Endgame, except for maybe Lehran in 4-E-5 for the Ashera Staff.

he can boost everyone's fuckin biorhythm to max with two arm scrolls (you have enough money to give him two arms scrolls by that point) on top of *extra* healing utility.

Raising people's Biorhythm to Best raises reliability I suppose, but again it's not exactly something that's particularly useful, nor is it something Micaiah can't do anyway (admittedly, Micaiah will probably need an extra Arms Scroll but I agree that we have enough money that this is a non-issue).

I'm aware Micaiah has the same benefit but that is not the point that I am making, the nature of the tier list covers that argument already.

Well that's too bad. Micaiah is forced. Micaiah can do everything Oliver can do just as well (enough. Again, his higher magic isn't allowing him to do anything she can't). We only need one. Two is redundant, and makes Endgame harder than it needs to be. Do the math.

Astrid's use is okay early chip in chapter 2-3 (you'd want to kill as few units as possible in that chapter anyway since the EXP you're getting tends not to make up for the BEXP you're missing out on) and in 3-9 she's still not a very good chipper.

That chip damage allows your other units break through enemies and move forward. And as I said earlier, some use for 2 maps is better than none at all for 5.

[Lord Raven]

No, he doesn't. More than one staffbot is redundant in Endgame, except for maybe Lehran in 4-E-5 for the Ashera Staff.

Raising people's Biorhythm to Best raises reliability I suppose, but again it's not exactly something that's particularly useful, nor is it something Micaiah can't do anyway (admittedly, Micaiah will probably need an extra Arms Scroll but I agree that we have enough money that this is a non-issue).

I heard ignoring points that cover both of these arguments is hip.

Well that's too bad. Micaiah is forced. Micaiah can do everything Oliver can do just as well (enough. Again, his higher magic isn't allowing him to do anything she can't). We only need one. Two is redundant, and makes Endgame harder than it needs to be. Do the math.

I'm a math major, don't tell me to do math.

You are correct, you would never ever deploy Oliver in the scenario where all you can do is play efficiently. Kudos. You're a fucking great man for stating that over and over again, and using that as the primary argument against Oliver. You deserve a prize! Because you're so fucking good at determining the point of a tier list that you ignore all valid points that are against yours especially because we're comparing low tiers and not mid and upper mid tiers.

The fact that Micaiah is forced and does basically everything Oliver can do means nothing about Oliver's quality as a unit. More defined tier list things would be a fucking boon right now, considering the fact that I'm sick of people ignoring the point that outclassing has absolutely no bearing on one's tier position. Comparisons exist to see how far apart two units should be, in which case you've done a fantastic job of showing that Micaiah should be way higher than Oliver. Don't give me this "now that's too bad" bullshit on me, what if Micaiah were something like 1/1/1 (something I know is fundamentally impossible if you want to reach the endgame, don't lecture me on that, but 14/8/1 or something strangely jumbled up like that is not unrealistic either) and couldn't nearly do all the shit Oliver could do? Or even a promoted Mist/Elincia? Then you can see Oliver for the... not quality, but you can see him as a unit that can do *something* to lower turncounts in a couple chapters. Not that he'll be doing a bang-up job of it, but he's fucking Low Tier as is, and I'm sure we've all proven our points as to why he should be low tier.

That chip damage allows your other units break through enemies and move forward. And as I said earlier, some use for 2 maps is better than none at all for 5.

Ignoring requests like for actual numbers to back up your points is overrated, too. Even my half-assed naming strategies seemed to be more credible than your "using chip to break through enemies" right now.