OMG it's a tier list

[Lord Raven]

Is there anything happening with Oliver vs Lehran? Because being a Rescue/Healer for five parts of the endgame is better than being a chipper and healer for one part of the endgame. Lehran should move down.

[Florete]

Is there anything happening with Oliver vs Lehran? Because being a Rescue/Healer for five parts of the endgame is better than being a chipper and healer for one part of the endgame. Lehran should move down.

That depends on how we view the value of a deployment slot for Endgame. Where did that discussion go again?

[Lord Raven]

a) you're the person running this thing

b) we don't need another combat unit that badly, especially if we're considering Lehran's contributions to be low-tier significant (compared to bottom)

c) I was also under the impression we were judging units as if they were actually deployed, so end-of-the-game units would be deployed at endgame.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

a) you're the person running this thing

Yeah, but lately I've mostly been watching and making changes as needed.

b) we don't need another combat unit that badly, especially if we're considering Lehran's contributions to be low-tier significant (compared to bottom)

Lehran is low because of availability, not performance. Lehran's performance in his one map is rather good, and I'd argue better than anything Oliver does even with a free slot.

c) I was also under the impression we were judging units as if they were actually deployed, so end-of-the-game units would be deployed at endgame.

That depends on where that discussion went. I'm pretty sure that was agreed on, as well.

[Lord Raven]

That depends on where that discussion went. I'm pretty sure that was agreed on, as well.

...Therefore Oliver should be above Lehran or at least right below. Since the discussion went that exact way, then it's not logical to say anything but.

And I have argued my case on this if you flip back on pages. Oliver is healing or using a Rescue staff for four chapters, Silencing a random enemy just in case, whereas Lehran is either attacking one turn or using Ashera Staff on another turn- Oliver can use Fortify to mostly the same effect (especially being a better healer than Micaiah generally, so he's not totally redundant).

Edited November 14, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Wasn't it agreed not to penalise characters for taking deployment slots? That was the cause of my whole Kysha Up crusade, which has sadly failed in propelling him even a single space.

Under that basis, Oliver would... probably go above Lehran. It's no exaggeration to point out that his staff utility is utterly forgettable and while his combat is not forgettable, it's for the wrong reasons. His only asset is Rescue staffing. Up to you whether that's worth more or less than a useful combatant in 4-E-5. Probably less.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Anouleth

[Florete]

Should Lehran still move down, though? Putting him in bottom feels odd but I could see it being reasonable. Pelleas still needs to be below him, but Pelleas needs to be in bottom, anyway. And what did you want to do with Kyza?

[Lord Raven]

We could just reformat the lower tiers instead of re-adjusting them. In fact, because deployment slots are no longer a hindrance, then there *could* be enough changes to be made for a complete reformation of the tier list.

[Dark Sage]

I am going to reopen this can of worms and argue for Mist to drop below Rhys.

[Zanarkin]

I am going to reopen this can of worms and argue for Mist to drop below Rhys.

This has been argued for so much... why is mist still above rhys?

[Dark Sage]

Bonds, horsey on promotion and a 1 move advantage IIRC.

Also something about Pocket Mist, but from my experience, that's unlikely to make much of a difference.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Florete]

We could just reformat the lower tiers instead of re-adjusting them. In fact, because deployment slots are no longer a hindrance, then there *could* be enough changes to be made for a complete reformation of the tier list.

I don't think we need to go that far. Even with such a change in criteria, most characters should still be in the right tier, at the very least.

I am going to reopen this can of worms and argue for Mist to drop below Rhys.

I'm about ready to go through with this.

[Dark Sage]

I'm about ready to go through with this.

Oh wow. I was prepared to fight tooth and nail about this. Awesomesauce.

[Lord Raven]

I would move Oliver to right below Sephiran since they do exactly the same thing in the endgame anyway, and then pushing Kyza up isn't a bad idea (but idk where).

[Caliban of Sycorax]

So I think after what happened in this topic, we should put Meg above Aran and Edward, or at the worst within the same tier. Whoever disagrees can suck it because I'm right and I want the arguing to stop.

More serious note: have we discussed Jill (N) moving up yet?

meg4toptier.

In all seriousness, Jill(N) may not be able to move much because she's right below Burger King, Tibarn, and Naesala, all of whom have incredibly useful contributions for their chapters. Despite Jill's availability lead, she still has issues, especially with Jill(N). Although she won't run the risk of an OHKO in her join chapter (something both Tibarn and Naesala face), it's a tough battle to assume she's got more going for her. Especially since Tibarn's your reason for LTCing 4-5.

Is there anything happening with Oliver vs Lehran? Because being a Rescue/Healer for five parts of the endgame is better than being a chipper and healer for one part of the endgame. Lehran should move down.

I agree that Oliver and Lehran should be closer, Oliver does have decent staff utility, of course who are we assuming goes into Endgame?

I am going to reopen this can of worms and argue for Mist to drop below Rhys.

I agree once more.

[dondon151]

Especially since Tibarn's your reason for LTCing 4-5.

Elincia @ Rescue is far more guaranteed.

An extremely pumped up Jill is quite important in clearing 3-12 and her part 4 maps.

[Zanarkin]

Bonds, horsey on promotion and a 1 move advantage IIRC.

Also something about Pocket Mist, but from my experience, that's unlikely to make much of a difference.

I was asking, cause it was decided upon before but thereis no change. That however will likely change soon enough

[Colonel M]

I'm about ready to go through with this.

I think the apocalypse just happened.

Also, dondon pointed it out. Jill (N) contributes a shitload to an efficient playthrough. The major difference, which is probably minor at best, is that she requires a little bit more "help" to being a good combat unit. She has major availability advantage on Tibarn and co, and she cuts turns in a lot of maps like 1-6-2.

[aku chi]

Also, dondon pointed it out. Jill (N) contributes a shitload to an efficient playthrough. The major difference, which is probably minor at best, is that she requires a little bit more "help" to being a good combat unit. She has major availability advantage on Tibarn and co, and she cuts turns in a lot of maps like 1-6-2.

"Minor"? "Little"!? You've got to be kidding me. Jill (N) needs more resources than any other unit for her optimal contributions. The opportunity costs involved cannot be ignored! Jill (N) is the polar opposite of the Black Knight when it comes to resource use, which makes a comparison between the two especially difficult. I do support Jill (T) > Nephenee (T), though.

[Dark Sage]

"Minor"? "Little"!? You've got to be kidding me. Jill (N) needs more resources than any other unit for her optimal contributions. The opportunity costs involved cannot be ignored! Jill (N) is the polar opposite of the Black Knight when it comes to resource use, which makes a comparison between the two especially difficult. I do support Jill (T) > Nephenee (T), though.

Jill is without a doubt the best candidate for all of the resource. Her opportunity cost is not ignored, it's just that her contributions with the resources far outweigh what some other DB scrub does with them. Tell me for example how Nolan, Aran, or Eddie getting any of those resources is better than Jill getting them.

[Colonel M]

You name me units that can use the resources she uses and can replicate what she does, and I'll concede.

Let me give you a hint: it's technically impossible since the only other unit that can fly is gone after 1-E. Zing!

[Florete]

In all seriousness, Jill(N) may not be able to move much because she's right below Burger King, Tibarn, and Naesala, all of whom have incredibly useful contributions for their chapters. Despite Jill's availability lead, she still has issues, especially with Jill(N). Although she won't run the risk of an OHKO in her join chapter (something both Tibarn and Naesala face), it's a tough battle to assume she's got more going for her. Especially since Tibarn's your reason for LTCing 4-5.

I'm pretty sure Tibarn doesn't have a whole lot to do with clearing 4-5. I am pretty much agreeing with others here that both Jills should rise.

[RNG Princess]

Oliver should be king of bottom, he can use staves nicely but combat is more in demand and he offers none of it.

You name me units that can use the resources she uses and can replicate what she does, and I'll concede.

Let me give you a hint: it's technically impossible since the only other unit that can fly is gone after 1-E. Zing!

Meg

^^' I'm just kidding

[Lord Raven]

Oliver should be king of bottom, he can use staves nicely but combat is more in demand and he offers none of it.

I think Combat is well covered in the final chapter, not like you need more than you already have (since you already have Ike and a bunch of Royals). He's got Rescue in case you need it and he basically does what Sephiran can do for more chapters... so him being comparable to Sephiran isn't bad. Using slots on a unit aren't penalizable anymore either.

[RNG Princess]

I think Combat is well covered in the final chapter, not like you need more than you already have (since you already have Ike and a bunch of Royals). He's got Rescue in case you need it and he basically does what Sephiran can do for more chapters... so him being comparable to Sephiran isn't bad. Using slots on a unit aren't penalizable anymore either.

Woops that makes sense then ^^'. I don't have any other argument against Oliver so i'll concede.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia