OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

Were you not paying attention when Mekkah clearly said that offical debates don't actually solve anything due to debater bias (the debaters are not expected to look at the situation objectively). If you want a debate for debate's sake use that forum, if you want to move a character up in the tier list don't use an offical debate to do it.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=475978

Most changes made to the tier list here aren't based on how good the unit is, but rather how good the person defending the unit is.

And the debate board just means that SOMETHING comes out of the whole shitstorm. this tier list is lucky if it has 1 change every 50 posts.

Edited July 8, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

One of the major benefits for Mia is guaranteed doubling for the most part, which is why I don't complain a whole lot anymore on her. Nephenee isn't too bad but she needs some help getting up to par, but definitely ends better than OscarTheGrouch.

I don't see why utility isn't highlly rated here, but from my perspective treating the hawks as a pair seems pretty fair. Not saying that there can't be a gap between them (like a character or two), but Ulki's lack of KOs can be seen as a positive contribution for pitting enemies in KO range at the very least. Being 1 level lower than Janaff really sucks though. They're both badass units and at least come at a reasonable time now with great stats *glares at PoR*.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mekkah]

Most changes made to the tier list here aren't based on how good the unit is, but rather how good the person defending the unit is.

Which is bad, because it should be about concensus, not whoever the best debater feels like getting moved up.

And the debate board just means that SOMETHING comes out of the whole shitstorm. this tier list is lucky if it has 1 change every 50 posts.

Getting things changed for the sake of change means nothing if a tier list is supposed to be accurate.

[Interceptor]

Most changes made to the tier list here aren't based on how good the unit is, but rather how good the person defending the unit is.

The person defending? As in one guy? Tier lists are collaborative, look at how many different people weighed in on different sides in the Hawk v. Gatrie debate. It's also an incremental process: I was the one who argued Gatrie out of Upper Mid in the first place, and declined to argue him any higher than bottom of High just to prep the field for another debate later. They also allow people to more objectively look at performance: points can be conceded and there's nothing riding on it.

And the debate board just means that SOMETHING comes out of the whole shitstorm. this tier list is lucky if it has 1 change every 50 posts.

Something does come out of this "shitstorm", usually it's an interesting argument or seven. Worst situation I can think of? A tier list that's "perfect", and nothing ever gets argued because it properly represents what it set out to do (not that people can't still argue, or that a tiuer list could ever possibly be perfect, but smash would throw a fit if they argued and someone didn't move at all).

Funny thing that's not related to this post, but on something someone said a bit ago: smash, that quote you have of me is still 1) taken out of context, and 2) missing words that you edited out. I understand that it accomplishes your sole mission of making me look like a retard, but I just wanted to point it out.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=475978

Most changes made to the tier list here aren't based on how good the unit is, but rather how good the person defending the unit is.

And the debate board just means that SOMETHING comes out of the whole shitstorm. this tier list is lucky if it has 1 change every 50 posts.

You know, for once referencing your own post is likely the best response. I still don't think Red Fox of Fire will suddenly change a position on the tier list just because one debater beat another in the debates section, so the only point I see is the winner gets the feeling that they out-debated the other person, and the loser feels that the voters are biased or something. Clearly they can't both be right, and it still won't determine who is the better unit, just look at Vykan making Renning come out above Elincia. He even got away with making her 2-E look bad.

I don't see why utility isn't highlly rated here, but from my perspective treating the hawks as a pair seems pretty fair. Not saying that there can't be a gap between them (like a character or two), but Ulki's lack of KOs can be seen as a positive contribution for pitting enemies in KO range at the very least.

Yeah, I agree. There's a reason a lot of people make Tauroneo pick up Edward in 1-6 and weaken stuff instead of killing. Honestly, since Ulki and Janaff both get 1 exp for all their kills I think Ulki is more useful depending on playstyle. It's just on the tierlist the big deal is: "How well do you kill stuff?" or "How much do you speed up the killing of stuff?" The second question is why healers are rated highly because units aren't giving up a player phase to eat a concoction, and herons are rated highly because they speed things up or make things easier/safer. This is a good thing. However, it hurts others who have valuable utility for making the army stronger down the road. It could be argued that at times the tier list looks at immediate satisfaction in each chapter individually rather than how much butt is kicked throughout the course of the game because one unit let another unit get stronger with no real cost.

[Florete]

Let's make sure we're doing actual tier arguments here. Currently I see:

- Mia vs. Ulki *and Janaff*

- Gatrie vs. Hawks

I think there were others, but for the sake of cleanliness and sanity, can we settle these and then move on to other issues? This way something can get done. Because, like smash, I do like it when something gets accomplished. Not saying I don't agree with Interceptor either, I also know that the fight is the most fun of it, but I want something to come out of it as well. But, I digress.

My opinion on Hawks vs. anyone:

I could see Janaff>Mia>Ulki. Ulki comes short on a lot of ORKOs that Janaff gets, and there's the level difference. Of course, assigning a value to Mia's 3-P to 3-5 performance is the tougher part.

Arguments for Hawks > Gatrie were good, and I currently have no opinion on that one.

[Progenitus]

Which is bad, because it should be about concensus, not whoever the best debater feels like getting moved up.

I never said that debate topics should be the only way to settle things, but at LEAST if guy A beats guy B in a debate, guy B has to stfu about the issue rather than ramble on and on until guy A gets tired of the rambling and gives up.

Debate topics also help concentrate issues and facts about the whole issue. provided, of course, that both debaters are intelligent.

Getting things changed for the sake of change means nothing if a tier list is supposed to be accurate.

What? Since when did my post even imply that?

Also, about the whole hawks thing, if you only want them to weaken stuff, you can always just use wildheart.

Edited July 8, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

Arguments for Hawks > Gatrie were good, and I currently have no opinion on that one.

I thought this argument was good too for Gatrie > Hawks.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=482593

I'm also glad that Narga understands utility. They seem underrated at times on Tier lists because of the "who kills faster".

Edited July 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, about the whole hawks thing, if you only want them to weaken stuff, you can always just use wildheart.

It might work, at times. But at base level Ulki has 21 str/29 mt/27AS with wildheart and Janaff has 24str/32 mt/25 AS. Plus wildheart is stupid because outside of part 1 there is still a gauge and they still untransform. Or at least on my first playthrough I let Volug use his wildheart in part 3 and his gauge went down. I don't think I let it hit 0, but I'm assuming he'd untransform. And you can't just switch transform types like Gatrie changes weapons. To actually kill when needed, first they need to revert and stone (one turn), then attack next turn or after a vigor to kill something. Heck, Gatrie can kill something, then have Ike change his weapon to a hand axe and he is now a crippler. With laguz you get a lot of A or B but not both choices that you have to make, but the beorc don't worry about that stuff.

Throw in lvl 30 and tear and suddenly Ulki has 30 AS and a 51% chance of throwing in at least 42 more damage (OHKO in part 3) and Janaff has 25 str and a 43.75% chance of throwing in at least 50 more damage (OHKO in part 3). That's actually pretty good kill%s for crippling because leaving everything alive doesn't help finish chapters unless we have a lot of nubs and killing too much is obviously bad for a crippler.

The trouble is, if they don't tear, enemies can be left with 10-25 hp (depending on Janaff or Ulki and which type of enemy), and Generals are left with over 30 hp (high 20s for Janaff on some), which means some units can't OHKO the remnants.

They have at least 3 issues as cripplers that Gatrie, Ike, and Mia don't have.

I thought this argument was good too for Gatrie > Hawks.

Another reader? *fistpump* Yes! Got 2 readers so far. Glad someone appreciates my work. Enhances the fun a bit.

(I really am thankful, just overreacting a bit since there's been a lot of posts since that one and Int was the only one who commented, which was also appreciated)

I'm also glad that Narga understands utility. They seem underrated at times on Tier lists because of the "who kills faster".

Yeah, in that post I didn't get to the utility thing until the end because there was so much to talk about, but it's there. There's even a couple things I left out entirely.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Meh, I'm just saying that they do have the option to cripple.

Actually, I don't think Janaff and Ulki can one round even with full transformation bonuses. Janaff is borderline on halbs and occasionally warriors/snipers and Ulki is borderline on basically everything. They're not one rounding generals, but then again no one really is.

I did Janaff and Ulki in my ranking topic and I covered how their offense is over their chapters...

3-7. Janaff one-rounds halbs and warriors and snipers while Ulki has issues.

3-8. Janaff has issues one-rounding halbs now. Ulki has issues 2-rounding generals

3-10. The enemies are about the same as 3-8 enemies, except now there are paladins (Janaff one rounds and Ulki doesn't) and dragonmasters (neither one-round).

3-11. There are a lot of paladins in this chapter. Janaff one rounds a bunch and Ulki can't one round anything. Janaff starts running into issues one-rounding snipers and warriors (though they're rare in this chapter). Ulki has an even harder time 4HKOing generals, and now he's borderline on 2HKOing SMs.

3-E. Similar to 3-11.

I'm assuming we're sending the hawks with Micaiah because of the desert (as awesome as the 4-5 base convo is).

4-P. Ulki has issues 3HKOing most anything, which means simply giving him adept may not even be enough. Janaff isn't one rounding, though he 3HKOs non-generals with ease. The hawks are probably getting S-strike sometime late during this chapter.

4-3. Even with S-Strike, Janaff has issues 2HKOing halbs and warriors, while Ulki upgrades to 3HKO.

4-E-1. General heaven. They're so tanky Janaff has issues 3HKOing, but on the other side Ulki has issues 4HKOing. Note that if Janaff can't 3HKO, his offense is not that much better (adept won't let him one round), since after 2 rounds of attack you're bound to have a mastery go off once.

4-E-2. Janaff isn't 2HKOing, but Ulki might have issues 3HKOing. It's a fairly small chapter though (~30 enemies), and you don't even need to kill them all.

4-E-3. wtf dragons. Something like 76 HP/36 def for red dragons and 71-72 HP/22 or 24 def. The red dragons are so tanky that while Janaff requires fewer hits to kill them (like, Janaff ~6HKOs, 5 if he has SS-strike, while Ulki ~10HKOs, 6HKos with SS-strike), they'll probably activate their mastery before the dragon even gets to half HP at which point they both kill. Janaff 3HKOs white dragons while Ulki might not (unless they have SS-strike, at which point they both 3HKO).

4-E-4. Neither have issues 2HKOing the spirits, although because they lack 2-range they're not very good here anyway.

4-E-5. This is like the only time Janaff can't double, since the auras are too fast for him. However, because the hawks have canto, they can easily use the dragons' tide skills and then move off to let someone else use it, which means Janaff can go to Nasir while Ulki goes to a red dragon and they'll be doing similar damage. And then Ashera, but neither are that stellar against her. It's pretty short anyway.

btw, Mia is a pretty bad crippler too because of her crit. And I don't know why Mia would be the one feeding enemies to other people, since she's the one that wants kills fed to her because she's relatively underleveled.

[Colonel M]

Another reader? *fistpump* Yes! Got 2 readers so far. Glad someone appreciates my work. Enhances the fun a bit.

(I really am thankful, just overreacting a bit since there's been a lot of posts since that one and Int was the only one who commented, which was also appreciated)

That's two more than I usually have on here. In all honesty this is probably one of the games that I've played and have poorer memory with (PoR is my worst).

[Vykan12]

I'm writing a response to Narga's huge ass post. So far it's 6 pages long and I'm about 1/4 of the way through. I can post what I have so far if anyone wants.

[CT075]

I think that Laura could stand to drop. She's doing nothing that Micaiah can't besides maybe healing more than 15 HP. She's a defensive liability on the field, which makes it a pain to have her heal anything while retaining efficiency (She can't go run up and heal because of 2 range peoples so people have to run back to her). That means that she's underleveled going into 3-6, and then Micaiah is already doing more than she is (More mag). Compared to Aran, who steadily gets better once his Def growth kicks in. To put the durability gap in perspective, most 1-4 enemies OHKO her, whereas they 2-3RKO Aran (Tigers 2-shot, Cats 2RKO unless Aran got a point of speed). In Part 3, Aran's back to getting 2RKO'd, but Laura and her 1HKO'd self isn't doing any better. Then in Part 4 Aran's durability is decent again, but Laura's still getting one-shotted. I won't post any direct statistical comparison because I'm too lazy to, but I think it's mainly a case of whether or not Laura's healing is better or worse than Aran's durability.

[-Cynthia-]

I think that Laura could stand to drop. She's doing nothing that Micaiah can't besides maybe healing more than 15 HP. She's a defensive liability on the field, which makes it a pain to have her heal anything while retaining efficiency (She can't go run up and heal because of 2 range peoples so people have to run back to her). That means that she's underleveled going into 3-6, and then Micaiah is already doing more than she is (More mag). Compared to Aran, who steadily gets better once his Def growth kicks in. To put the durability gap in perspective, most 1-4 enemies OHKO her, whereas they 2-3RKO Aran (Tigers 2-shot, Cats 2RKO unless Aran got a point of speed). In Part 3, Aran's back to getting 2RKO'd, but Laura and her 1HKO'd self isn't doing any better. Then in Part 4 Aran's durability is decent again, but Laura's still getting one-shotted. I won't post any direct statistical comparison because I'm too lazy to, but I think it's mainly a case of whether or not Laura's healing is better or worse than Aran's durability.

Laura's healing utility Part 1 is very useful though, since if Micaiah's doing it she can only do it once before having to heal herself and has a cap of how much she can heal. Considering the team's general durabiltiy woes she's saving us a lot of turns.

Even when Micaiah gains staves in Part 3, Laura's still useful since the DB can really use 2 healers by this point. Laura's even more useful in 3-13, since Micaiah is stuck behind the line.

They're both pretty useless Part 4. It's often hard to measure healers against combat units, but Aran's pretty average, I wouldn't put him higher.

Edited July 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

Meh, I'm just saying that they do have the option to cripple.

Actually, I don't think Janaff and Ulki can one round even with full transformation bonuses. Janaff is borderline on halbs and occasionally warriors/snipers and Ulki is borderline on basically everything. They're not one rounding generals, but then again no one really is.

I did Janaff and Ulki in my ranking topic and I covered how their offense is over their chapters...

btw, Mia is a pretty bad crippler too because of her crit. And I don't know why Mia would be the one feeding enemies to other people, since she's the one that wants kills fed to her because she's relatively underleveled.

That's actually a pretty good summary, though it doesn't deal with what we are doing with bexp and satori signs and whether Ulki gets an energy drop. (what I said would be too much detail for a rating topic, though, so the summary was good there).

First off, Mia is a great crippler because she kills ~60% of her enemies (with Adept + steel blade, so she gets 30% adept and ~10% crit). 1 - (.7*.7*.9*.9) ~ .6, or 60% chance of killing warriors, halbs, and snipers, since an adept or crit will kill them. Against swordmasters she is 100%, and against mages she is 100% on player phase and on enemy phase either 0% or borderline 2HKO with wind edge, so again ~60% if she comes up short.

Basically, the idea of a crippler is one thing: Kill enough that your followers are not outnumbered and can kill what's left. If you leave too much, or if what you leave needs to be 2HKOd, you are not a good crippler. If you leave too little, you might not be a great crippler, but you are still decent. Mia kills enough with Adept that she usually falls in between, ie: just right.

This is actually why I tend to let her do it when I just need one. Gatrie has ~40% Luna activation in two hits, so sometimes that is too many enemies alive. She doesn't need to be fed kills, feeding generally means you weaken something and then send the unit you are feeding in. She just stands there and lets them come on enemy phase. It works wonders for boosting her level. Obviously she is getting more kills than people without a good enemy phase, but that's just because she is better than they are, it's not her fault. She dishes out the meals while taking enough for herself.

As for your numbers, the hawks just need like 11 or 12 enemies per map and they have S strike by 3-E. Ulki is similar to Mia for crippling in that he has a 64% chance of Tearing and leaves the rest alive. He just has no enemy phase against 2 range and aside from one or two turns in which he has a lot of gauge you have to be careful in how many enemies attack him. Mia just needs Ike. Janaff is most likely to get HP, Skl, Lck on his bexp level, but you could easily force str since it is number 2. If you don't, he should still only fall short of Halbs and Generals and since he gets S strike when 40 mt is no longer sufficient for warriors, he's fine anyway. Ulki is the same with an energy drop, but he isn't always getting it because other units benefit the army too, just in different ways (Like, they may not suddenly go to ORKOing stuff, but their 4s become 3s or they aren't a waste of space when they aren't stealing or it is easier to feed kills to Mist or whatever, not that I'd give a drop to Mist).

In summary, Janaff is a bad crippler and Ulki is a decent one (if no energy drop).

I think I've lost track of what I was doing here so I'm just going to stop this part of the post here.

Oh, and for vykan, it's up to you. I know the thing was stupidly long and yours will be even longer if it keeps quoting mine along the way. If anyone else wants to see what you have, they can speak up. If you post in 4 segments, it might make it easier for people to read, but to avoid doubleposting you'd have to wait until someone else says something in between each post.

Since you are responding to it all, I'm not sure if I want to celebrate a third reader of the post, but I'll give a fistpump anyway: *fistpump*

Given how long my post took me, I'm guessing it could be a while yet. 24 pages (at that pace)? eek. Mine was like 9 or something, I just checked.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

That's actually a pretty good summary, though it doesn't deal with what we are doing with bexp and satori signs and whether Ulki gets an energy drop. (what I said would be too much detail for a rating topic, though, so the summary was good there).

My post also mentioned when the hawks are getting their mastery (maybe around 4-3. A little earlier if we give them BEXP), I just didn't think it was relevant to the point about crippling enemies.

We also seem to use cripplers in different ways. I don't have my crippler go up against a swarm of enemies. I usually just have my crippler attack something on player phase and not kill it if I have other units around that would have nothing to do if my crippler killed it (e.g. Ulki attacks something he can't kill, and then someone I'm feeding kills to like Soren gets the kill, because in this scenario if Ulki killed the enemy, Soren would have nothing to do). On enemy phase I usually want as many enemies dead as possible so I'd use my strongest guy possible, and I rarely get swarmed by more than 3 enemies or so anyway per turn, so if I'm bothering with feeding kills to other units, I don't really care if my crippler can't kill, since I should have enough units on standby to deal with the rest, even though this would make me go a little slower.

Meh, I'm getting tired of this crippler argument anyway.

I think that Laura could stand to drop. She's doing nothing that Micaiah can't besides maybe healing more than 15 HP.

Laura can actually heal every turn (provided no enemies can reach her) while Micaiah would need to use a vulnerary everytime she sacrifices. Sacrifice is ridiculously inefficient in terms of long term healing. Its only uses are emergency healing or putting Micaiah into a low enough HP for wrath.

Plus healing for more than 15 HP is significant in DB chapters where units are dying in 3 or so hits, which means a guy like Nolan can easily lose like 25 HP. It's like saying "what if Mist couldn't use mend?".

She's a defensive liability on the field, which makes it a pain to have her heal anything while retaining efficiency (She can't go run up and heal because of 2 range peoples so people have to run back to her).

Since you like comparing Laura to Micaiah,how is laura a defensive liability when Micaiah's situation is even worse? While Micaiah does have more HP/def/spd, she actually has to be at the frontlines if she wants to make herself useful (i.e. attack). If it's too dangerous for Laura to do to the frontlines, she can still heal someone in the back. Micaiah just doesn't do anything at all (or she sacrifices and heals less HP than Laura and now has even worse durability).

That means that she's underleveled going into 3-6, and then Micaiah is already doing more than she is (More mag).

Micaiah might be a better unit in this chapter, but she's certainly not doing all the healing by herself. We have two fronts to cover and our entire team is getting raped by 40 att tigers.

Let alone 3-13 where Micaiah's limited to purge and physics while Laura can actually do stuff without burning through expensive and/or rare weapons, or 3-12 where we again have two fronts to cover (admittedly whoever goes to the left side is probably not dying due to lolheight advantage), or in 4-P/1/2/3/4/5 where we have to split into three teams and thus Laura can find a team to heal for anyway.

I don't see a problem with her being underleveled, since healing barely relies on your stats anyway. It would be a problem if she was an attacker.

Compared to Aran, who steadily gets better once his Def growth kicks in. To put the durability gap in perspective, most 1-4 enemies OHKO her, whereas they 2-3RKO Aran (Tigers 2-shot, Cats 2RKO unless Aran got a point of speed). In Part 3, Aran's back to getting 2RKO'd, but Laura and her 1HKO'd self isn't doing any better. Then in Part 4 Aran's durability is decent again, but Laura's still getting one-shotted. I won't post any direct statistical comparison because I'm too lazy to, but I think it's mainly a case of whether or not Laura's healing is better or worse than Aran's durability.

Comparing a healer to a combat unit is a pretty strange thing to do because they fulfill entirely different roles.

I just don't see how the DB's only healer for part 1 and still maintains usefulness in parts 3 and 4 isn't at least upper mid.

[Vykan12]

I might as well post my first 9 pages since it is the same length as Narga’s original post.

Now, without dumping 3/4 of our bexp into both hawks and giving them both satori signs (the signs aren't really an issue) Ulki clearly isn't killing much at a decent rate.

What the… where did you get this high arbitrary value from?

By 3-8, we have at most 22100 BEXP available (see here).

Ulki needs 8750 BEXP for 2 full level-ups, which is only ~39.5% of your total supply. What’s more is that he can train a little untransformed in 3-7 without consequence at which point he probably gains exp faster than your average unit. If he managed ¾ of a level-up doing that, now he only needs 5525 BEXP (25%). Janaff evidently requires less since he’s only 1 level away from being able to use a satori sign.

This may still sound like a lot, but basically anyone who tries to use BEXP is going to be using a significant amount to begin with. For instance, BEXPing a 20/15 unit 2 levels costs 7300 BEXP (33%).

I dunno about you, but with such scarce BEXP, all I’d want from it is to BEXP ram a few characters’ speed values once they hit late second tier, as well as giving 2 characters a 34-36% mastery per hit.

He needs Adept and will still only have a 59.04% chance of pulling off a kill on things Gatrie doesn't need anything more than a forge to guarantee it.

That is contingent on Gatrie getting the crown. Without it, he’s stuck with 23 AS in 3-8. Let’s look at everything that doesn’t double.

3 warriors

6 halberdiers

2 swordmasters

2 snipers

1 sage

4 sword general

2 druids

Septimus

That’s 21/38 (55%) of the level’s starting enemies, and much of the stuff he doubles (sages, bishops) are joke enemies that anyone can one round.

Evidently, Gatrie has more to lose from not getting his desired resource (crown) than the hawks do without theirs (tear).

And let me remind you that the crown is a highly competitive item. List of people who want one:

Titania

Gatrie

Soren

Shinon

Mia

Oscar

Speedwing!Haar

Rolf

Tauroneo

This isn’t even mentioning anyone who wants to save themselves a full level-up, or maybe promote at lv 19 because of everything they gain (+2 in like every stat, a mastery, possibly a new weapon type, etc).

Essentially, Gatrie can make himself much better at someone else’s expense, which pretty much cancels out its effect in regards to the team, at least temporarily. Just giving Ulki an energy drop and a full support (+6-7 atk essentially) doesn’t have the same negative impact on others since most GMs have issues doubling, not dishing out damage.

Janaff isn't doing much better since he soon doesn't ORKO halbs, so that is approximately tied with not ORKOing Swordmasters.

Janaff with an energy drop has 44 atk, 46 with an A Ulki support and 51 with S strike. 44 alone lets him ORKO dragonmasters and borderline ORKO some generals. For instance, against a 3-10 general, he’s doing 87.8% damage (the enemy’s left with 6 hp) so any pathetic waste of space in your army could finish that off. Oh, and fun fact: A 15/1 Gatrie with a forged steel lance has 44 atk, the same as our beloved energy drop!Janaff, so he’s performing exactly the same.

Any time they got past 40 exp and we wanted a better level for better stats to make our lives easier it would cost a fair amount to bexp them, but if we didn't then some of their stats could be lower than we would want, like Ike's spd, Shinon's str, Mia's def and lck, Neph's Str and Def, Oscar's str, Soren's spd/def/hp, Ilyana's spd/lck, Rhys's spd.

We don’t gain very much from manipulating Shinon’s str up because he already kills so reliably with the silencer. Take him at --/17/0 for instance (3 stats capped). Now that might not sound like much based on the numbers I just ran with Gatrie and Janaff, but take note this is still fairly early on in part 3. If we’re talking 3-5 for instance, 39 atk does 112% damage to warriors, 100% on halbs (a bit borderline admittedly), 107% on snipers, 105% damage on paladins and obviously gets anything less durable than that. This gets even better if we give him an atk support or *gasp* crown him, and crowning him also gives him deadeye, +6 crit and bonuses everywhere else (+4 hp/+2 def for instance).

I don’t see why we’d worry too much about Mia’s concrete durability either. If we give her a beloved Ike support as seems so common here, she has 118 avo by the time we would want to BEXP ram her. Let’s put her against say, a steel greatlance!general in 3-8. Oh noes, 9 display hit (1.71 real) and he only 3HKOes. Some units are more likely to be critted 3 times in a row. Also, if we boosted her def up to 20, she’d still be getting 3HKOed, so the extra def did absolutely nothing. Same story with a steel axe!warrior except that have 12 display (3 real) hit. I’d rather crown her to uncap her speed so that her avo growth jumps from 35% to 165%, not to mention gaining astra, 16 crit, and all the other stuff I’m sick of repeating.

BEXP ramming Soren is a very resource consuming process, and thus probably not worth the return. See, we want to promote him as fast as possible so that he can replace Rhys as a healbot while his offence is used as a secondary function (ie weakening enemies to like 40% hp in one hit). The most ideal time to BEXP ram him would be --/10/0 since he has mag, skl and res capped, but then he only has 19 AS. That’s 4 BEXPed levels he’d need just to cap his spd and start doubling semi-consistently, and that’s if he got speed on every level-up, which isn’t guaranteed. Say goodbye to 13000 BEXP, possibly more, just to have a unit who still has a boatload of combat issues (low move, lack of durability, doesn’t double well in the long run thanks to a 35% growth). Even if he got +4 hp and +4 def out of that and crowned himself, now he has 38 hp/18 def. 37 atk 2HKOes him while 31 atk 3HKOes and many enemies fall into that range, and unlike Mia, his avo isn’t exactly stellar.

Ilyana and Rhys are even more unsalvageable in combat on HM, in fact I’m puzzled as to why you brought them up. If Ilyana somehow makes it to 20/1 after 1-E, she’s going to have 28 hp/8 def/16 AS going into 3-2. There are halberdiers in that chapter who double (and ORKO) her, that’s how pitiful she is. As for Rhys, he doesn’t even cap 3 stats in 3rd tier, and once mag and res are capped, his spd growth is tied for 3rd highest, so you could very well be putting BEXP into him for nothing. Let’s not forget that he gets doubled in 3-P (lol 14 base AS) and has a 35% growth to offset that, along with terrible concrete durability, so he’s almost as bad as Ilyana.

I’ll give you Ike and Neph, though Ike is only worried about his spd if he’s getting RNG screwed, and Neph can manage pretty well with just a forge. Or, if we talk transfers, then Ike’s spd issues are all but gone (25 base) and Neph hits lv 20 just 1 point short of her str cap.

Gatrie at 15/1 and 15/2 (str, spd, def, using bexp to finish a level when he gets to ~80 in The crown is not equivalent to anything you can give to the hawks but the satori signs, because no one uses the crown better than Gatrie.

Is that so? Crown a lv --/16/0 speedwing!Haar and now we have a character with the same atk, AS and durability as Gatrie, more skill capacity (Haar can pull off combos like celerity + savior) and most importantly, flight which allows him to apply all these advantages on a more frequent basis.

I don’t want to go into any more detail about this, but evidently a lot of units who use a crown get huge boosts in their performance all-around. It’s like taking a stat booster in every stat except luck, adding in a talisman, then giving your character a free adept in the form of a mastery, and perhaps even adding in more fun like a lot of extra crit or more capacity space.

A hawk taking just an energy drop is +2 str for them while giving Neph a crown is +4 hp/+3 str/+2 skl/+2 spd/+3 def/+4 res, impale and +5 crit (+6 when factoring +2 skl). What sounds like the bigger expenditure of resources?

On the topic of the energy drop, the hawks arguably make the best use of it themselves. They gain +4 atk (+8 per double) whereas most other characters are limited to a damage boost of +2-4. Then putting an energy drop into someone like Boyd is a complete waste since he has 40 atk with a silver poleax at base level, along with a 65% str growth. He might be an extreme case, but look at how many people have high atk in the GMs.

Haar

Titania

Gatrie

Ike

Boyd

Brom

Mordecai

Soren

A levelled Rolf (75% str growth ftw)

And low-ish atk

Mia

Neph

Oscar

Shinon

Ranulf

The former clearly outnumber the latter, which suggests the hawks have some fairly small competition for the energy drop. Again, everyone wants a crown, whereas a drop is overkill on more than half your team.

Janaff needs to take a dracoshield to survive crossbows. Which is stupid because he only needs it for one enemy type and would still only have 2 hp left afterwards.

Nullify. Nobody wants it in part 3. The only competition for it is Haar, but his issue is more with mages having crit rates on him than the actual damage they do. Jump to part 4, I guess Naesala could use it to ph33r crossbows less in 4-3, but that’s the extent of it. There’s only 1 bowgun in 4-2 for Elincia to worry about and she’s probably healing most of the time anyway. The only other area in the game with major bow threats is 4-E-2, but Ike can choose to beat the chapter whenever he pleases, so it barely matters.

Oh, and speaking of crossbows, if you can get one of your hawks to survive a hit, they can then take an herb and go wrath crazy the remainder of the chapter. This is especially true of Ulki, who with an A Janaff support has 140+ avo and a low amplitude biorhythm wave. The amount of enemies in part 3 with >140 hit can probably be counted on 1 finger, and a lot of them are non-threatening enemies like ellight bishops.

Ulki on the other hand needs an energy drop. We have two, because the first really should be on Jill or Nolan or Zihark (in that order).

Why? First, let me dispel this myth that Jill is actually good in HM.

Part 1: 24 hp/13 def/3 res/44 avo are terrible defensive bases. 21 atk 3HKOes her while 25 atk 2HKOes her.

Enemies that 2HKO

3 archers

3 thunder mages

Enemies that 3HKO

3 fighters

2 soldiers

7 armors

That combines for 18/33 (54.5%) of enemies that 2-3HKO her. In addition, any elthunder mage she faces has about a 3% crit rate on her, and if they crit, it’s an instant KO. Her avo isn’t saving her either. Enemies have 90-110 hit, so Jill is facing hit chances ranging from 43-77 real hit. 0.77^3 = 45.65%, so her death chances are massive if we give her anything resembling an enemy phase.

So if we limit her to 1 attack per turn in the interest of keeping her alive, her levelling becomes nonexistent. Enemies have around the same level as her, which means she gains 5 exp per hit and 20 per kill. That would work if she were some sort of killing machine, but her offence is also unremarkable.

She has a 15 spd base. 15 AS doubles all of 6 enemies in 1-6-1, and half of those are armors she does hilariously low damage to. If we forged her a steel axe (I’m not even sure you can forge steel yet), she now has 27 atk, which is a borderline 2 round against those. Don’t even dream of giving her a lesser weapon like a hand axe, seeing as almost anything weighs her down, and then her hit rate issues start popping up. Even with an iron axe she’s only pulling 118 hit, and most enemies have 30+ avo by this point. With bad bio, she could easily be pulling 70ish display on enemies she was WTN on.

Aright, so Jill attacks once per turn (if that, she does need to heal herself frequently after all) and kills about half the time (assuming the other half we set up a kill for her) as long as she doesn’t miss. Getting her to promotion would be a miracle at that rate.

Part 3: I’ll be nice and assume she’s 20/3 in 3-6, which is practically a theoretical impossibility if we care about efficiency at all. Now she has 30 hp/18-21 def/61-91 avo. Even with a defensive support, she’s getting 2HKOed by tigers, and at best she’s facing ~40 display hit. Offensively, she can double tigers (well not the 18 AS ones until she’s levelled up once or twice) but not cats and has 33 atk with forged steel. That allows her to 2 round both tigers and cats, which is admittedly pretty good.

Even if you don’t think Jill is a pretty lame unit (IMO she should probably be in mid somewhere), her problems lie a lot more in her durability than in her offence. A seraph robe in 3-6 would’ve allowed her to be 3HKOed, which is of paramount importance, whereas an energy drop wouldn’t have done anything (2RKOing -> 2RKOing). That and/or a dracoshield would’ve also made her far more usable in part 1 than simply outputting more damage.

Heather is not getting us either bolting without an energy drop, and that and a silver dagger in 3-7 we can steal from the DB will make her actually able to help finish stuff off and be less of a waste of space when she is deployed for an entire chapter to steal a few things to make our lives better.

Bolting is 19 Wt, Heather has a 15 str base and a 25% growth. Even giving her an energy drop, she still needs another one or 8 level-ups to steal those, and we also have to waste a ton of time in 3-2 going after that bolting guy in the northeast corner when we could just lure the boss out and be done with the map.

I’m not going to address your other examples since they are a good deal more realistic than your Heather example, but it’s still addressed by the fact that taking a crown from the team is much worse than taking an energy drop.

Now, that's for SS, so for S Janaff needs ~42 enemies and Ulki needs ~44 enemies.

Stilll, this is just 11 enemies per map to reach S strike by the beginning of 3-E, or 12 for Ulki with Adept, which is easily doable if we mix them between enemy phase and player phase.

This is precisely why the hawks continue to pwn in part 4. Our energy drop!Janaff with S strike now has 49 atk, 51 with an A Ulki support. In contrast, Naesala only has 47 atk, so Janaff is essentially performing like a royal but with transform issues, and that part doesn’t even exist in 4-E thanks to laguz gems. Hell, 51 mt is the same as a --/20/9 Ike with the ragnell equipped and he can borderline ORKO 4-4 generals.

2 levels of bonus exp plus adept still doesn't reach 100% ORKO on anything he doesn't 100% ORKO already. He needs an energy drop for that.

If we’re talking Ulki, then adept+tear has 84% reliability at neutral bio. If he ORKOed half the enemies he faced naturally and 2RKOed the rest, his overall killing rate would be 92%. That’s pretty close to 100, and I’ve already argued why an energy drop shouldn’t be an issue. If that drop alone relinquishes his need for adept, all the better.

1-2 range is big at times.

Indeed, but so is 3 move, not being affected by terrain and being able to bypass obstacles that take your units several turns to maneuver around.

Ferrying people is really not so great in the high tiers. That's low tier work when they are forced.

What does the tier position of a unit have to do with the effectiveness of ferrying? The process of ferrying allows slower units to keep up, which is universally useful in FE. If anything, getting good units to keep up is more beneficial to getting bad ones to do the same, which is contrary to the point you seem to be making.

When they aren't, it is nice and all, but ferrying isn't necessary in 3-8 and 3-10 only needs one ferry to drop Gatrie (only Haar can) near the Purge priest for Heather to steal it and not die (Heather gets shade and 1-2 range, Gatrie gets provoke and 1 range).

If you’ve ever read a good number of my posts, then you know I despise it when people use the word “necessary” in places where it isn’t appropriate. Evidently we can beat the entire game without ferrying once, that doesn’t make it any less useful.

Shove + canto can help sometimes, but is mostly self serving when we have at least 3 units on foot that can cover all our tanking/walling needs.

Self-serving? Ulki shoves Ike and moves 6 another spaces forward. Ike is the one who benefited from the shove.

In part 3 the hawk's stat leads are irrelevant against everything not a swordmaster, since we have hammers.

There are a total of 40 hammer uses in the entire game, less if we use some against the BK. And it’s not just Gatrie who has trouble one rounding generals, everyone does. If we trade the hammer around just Gatrie, Titania, Nolan [pt 1] and Haar, Gatrie gets entitled to less than 10 uses, which is rather negligible. If anything, the hawks having huge proc%ages plays in their advantage vs generals.

Gatrie is so amazing in 3-2, 3-3, 3-5 that 4-E is barely relevant.

Part 4 =/= just 4-E, that’s a pretty strange assumption to make. I don’t have any data on 4-1, but 4-4 enemies take 29-31 AS to double, and Gatrie only caps his spd at third tier lv 11. If he gets even slightly spd screwed, his use in 4-4 would diminish dramatically. There’s no time to waste in 4-4 on 2 rounding since killing inefficiency will end up getting you overwhelmed by reinforcements.

I’m not sure why you brought up 3-3 as that’s a chapter with huge emphasis on mobility. There’s a turn count limit you have to fit under just to avoid failing a map, an even stricter one for max BEXP, and the goal of the map is essentially reaching x amount of points as fast as possible.

Sure, Gatrie does win availability overall, but that alone isn’t really convincing me that he’s better.

If we aren't taking him to endgame, then his tanking ability is vastly more important than his offence in part 4

The hawks tank just as well though.

Ulki lv 30 (A Janaff): 60 hp, 25 def, 20 res, 145 avo

Janaff lv 30 (A Ulki): 58 hp, 27 def, 16 res, 122 avo

Gatrie lv --/20/11 (A Shinon): 54 hp, 40 def, 25 res, 106 avo

Yes, Gatrie crushes both of them in def/res, but the hawks’ ridiculous avo allow them to be virtually invincible regardless.

Take Ulki vs a 4-4 warrior for instance. He gets 4HKOed, but also faces 0 display hit (129 hit vs 145 avo). Let’s try an arcwind sage. 3HKOed but at 6 display hit (0.78 real). Even Janaff against the same enemy only faces 17 real, and he can absorb more physical attacks than Ulki can.

If we’re using both units in a passive sense, then the hawks are better off due to not requiring levelling to maintain durability in the long run.

Nasir or brave weapons can help make up for trouble with spirits

Brave weapons have fierce competition in 4-E. It’s not just the people who don’t double spirits/auras who want it, everyone does. Let’s say you have 52 atk with a brave weapon and 63 with an SS one. Against a side aura, the brave does 88 damage while the SS one does 66. For the corner ones, it’s 48 vs 46 (+2 for the brave), though the gap grows back to 22 if parity is used.

The same logic applies to Nasir as well. Anyone with AS falling between 34 and 39 wants to be beside him, and that is basically true of most units you’re likely to deploy.

Ulki and Janaff need to be hidden in 4-E-4 or cause no damage on enemy phase.

Killing most spirits in 4-E-4 is a secondary concern. What you want to be doing is getting to Sephiran ASAP, kill 2 of his side spirits and shove the remaining ones. Then someone like Giffca can ORKO him, or maybe Shinon at 3 range + someone else as a finisher. Also, with the amount of units you can deploy, it’s easy to overwhelm the attacking spirits on player phase (in fact, I did just that on my most recent PT).

Since they will never be getting much in the way of experience, they need lots of bexp to have any hope of getting past lvl ~33 (33 is already with a fair amount of bexp), and while that means Janaff can get to 56 mt with bexp and 150 attacks, Ulki is not likely to ever get str with bexp, meaning 50 mt is where he is going with an energy drop, 46 without. Not extremely useful for auras or even spirits (things love cover tiles).

Those are some very respectable atk values. For perspective, Mia with capped str and the VK has 52-55 atk. Assuming doubling, Ulki would do 40 damage to a side aura while Janaff would do 52, all of which are essentially 2RKOes. That’s the best you can hope to do against auras unless you’re a lion (they can pull 1RKOes with some effort) or doing triangle crits or something.

To get to a higher level without bexp, they need to fight untransformed, at which point they are just being virtually worthless for a few turns a map.

If they run ahead of your team, then anything they do untransformed isn’t of any negative consequence. Then just 1 ranged attack increases their meter by 15, so re-transforming isn’t much of an issue either.

I’ll admit I haven’t actually tried applying this strat very much, though that’s mainly because I’m content with how they’re currently performing.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Vykan12

[Vykan12]

Doesn't really need celerity to be good.

Gatrie has 6 move and loses 3 from traveling through vines, climbing ledges, etc while most units in your army have 7 and lose 2, respectively. Apparently the hawks can't even rescue him so Haar might not be able to either, which means he’s inevitably going to fall behind, which has him sticking to menial tasks like taking out reinforcements.

They can't both have nullify, and as someone else pointed out there is Haar, and eventually Elincia, Tibarn, Naesala, Marcia, Jill, Dragons in 4-E-1 for the bolting sage.

I already covered Haar and Elincia.

Tibarn? Are you effing serious? The takch user in 4-2 doesn’t even 1HKO him, and only pulls about 50 display on him. Considering pavise, that’s like a 25% chance to damage Tibarn a lot, 12.5ish% if he lands tear on the first hit. Regular bows are even more of a joke. A steel bow!sniper does 13 damage to him, which is a 6HKO. Are we giving Tibarn nullify just so he can survive a double bow hit in 4-E-1? That enemy doesn’t even move FYI.

Marcia and Jill have a lot more to worry about than just bows, ie they're not likely to be played in the long term.

Def can be big for some units that are borderline 2HKOd or 3HKOd to turn it into 3 or 4. Can be really useful at times.

Do you mind giving an example? I don’t know of any GMs who get 2-3HKOed that should be doing anything besides healing, and healers don’t make for attractive support partners.

The atk from water might help, but then someone is restarting an A as a C and losing 1 def they could've had with Gatrie.

Not necessarily, if you’re using an odd number of units, someone might’ve been left unsupported. Then people like Ranulf and Mordy join late enough that they can wait for a hawk support without consequence.

Even Haar has only 26 def and will actually die in enough hits. Gatrie can simply take a whole lot more.

That’s what concoctions are for. Needing to pop one every 4-5 turns is a negligible concern compared to the exposure 11 move + flight gives. 26 def is also Haar’s 2nd tier cap. He jumps to 28 upon promotion and his 65% def growth will return, so it’s only a temporary concern.

Gatrie's only chapters with move issues in part 3 are 3-4, and 3-7.

Actually his move issues exist on every single turn, they are just mitigated when the team as a whole needs to slow down to take on a group of tough enemies, a case that becomes increasingly rare as the game presses on.

If he does get to reach a lot of enemies in a chapter, it’s because you had him attack a group of enemies that didn’t take a long time for anyone to reach, or he took on a batch of reinforcements. That’s still limiting him to those enemies while other people have more flexibility in who they choose to pursue, not to mention being able to switch from group to group faster.

The hawks can transform on turn 3 with one grass use, or turn 1 with a stone.

Or on turn two if Reyson took the stone and vigored them. The hawks are Reyson’s favorite clients since the GMs lack units with canto (without them, it’s just Titania/Haar/maybe Oscar).

So unless we want them fighting untransformed, they are usually not helpful to us until turn 3, which is 2 whole turns of win for Gatrie, or 20% of those 10 turn maps.

The first ~1-2 turns also have the least amount of killing going on, so that 20% value is deceptive. The amount of additional killing the hawks can do by pulling ahead is so extensive that their transform issues are really just preventing them from being broken units.

Keep in mind this means that each hawk uses an entire grass and more every map

That’s absurd. They’d need to grass literally every turn for that to hold true, and they’re not dropping from 30 meter to 15 every turn unless they’re facing 4 enemies per turn. If they were doing that, they’d be killing 40 enemies per 10 turn chapter, which is basically a solo.

4-6 grass uses per chapter is far more realistic. Reyson himself uses 2-3.

and that means spending lots of money that could've gone to forges and other stuff, and we won't have enough in 3-8, anyway.

Olivi grass upkeep is less expensive than weapon upkeep.

Basically, they likely average around 2.5 enemies per turn

Sounds reasonable enough, if not a bit high (they’re still facing 25 enemies in a 10 turn chapter. 10-20 is a more appropriate range).

If we heal him even every three rounds, he will likely be able to safely average more than 3.1 enemies per turn, and certainly more than 2.5.

That’s got to be the funniest thing I’ve read all day. If you’re getting a 6 mov unit 30 attacks per chapter, then you must be playing molasses emblem.

Your math seems to be taking this comparison to strange places. A unit is lucky to finish with 100+ kills in the entire game, so if we assumed Gatrie killed at 80% proficiency, he’d achieve this benchmark in a little over 4 chapters. There exist such things as turns where no enemies are in range of a specific unit. In fact they probably take up around 1/3-1/2 of the total turns played in the game.

If we reyson him every round he can attack two things on player phase, not just one

Gatrie would be one of the hardest units to set up for a vigor while the hawks are the easiest (even mounts lose 2 move in some chapters while they don’t), so this point is purely academic.

and we don't have to plan far in advance if we want him to be able to face 4 or 5 enemies in one enemy phase without him untransforming on us.

Planning grass usage is a mental exercise, it has no effect on turn completion unless you mess it up. The element of human error should be pretty small when talking tier lists, though that’s up for debate I guess.

If we don't reyson, he can actually attack something on that player phase because he isn't grassing.

Let’s be a little more precise in that statement. He can actually attack something on every player phase when an enemy is within his range, while the hawks can only do so occasionally (maybe half-2/3rds of the time).

And if you are wondering about how they do for reyson use and player phase offence if we use canto to keep them away from enemy phase action, why did we dump so much exp into them and an energy drop for Ulki if we aren't having them make use of it on enemy phase?

This run-on sentence is confusing, but you seem to be suggesting that the energy drop on a hawk is a waste if we vigor them a lot. That’s obviously untrue.

-If a hawk misses a kill on a general, Reyson gives them another attack opportunity to finish what they started.

-Reyson allows them to grass, which translates into more offence on both phases.

-Reyson increases their total movement on a turn. 6 move forward + 3 back to set up for a vigor = 3 total spaces moved ahead, then once they’re vigored the can move another 9 for a net gain of 12.

Oh, and the hawks can't even carry Gatrie, Ranulf, Brom, and Janaff can't carry Ike. Also, neither can shove Gatrie, if you are interested. There might be others, but whatever.

That sucks for Gatrie more than it does for the hawks. As another minor point, the hawks can smite + canto for greater shoving effect. Then if 2 units are adjacent, a shove + canto alone allows Reyson to vigor 3 units. I might have to draw a diagram for that one if you can’t envision it in your head.

I’ll pass on your point about Gatrie manipulating his damage output as it’s pretty minor. The hawks can fight with someone rescued (spd/2) or take wildheart but that is a lot more awkward to apply.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Vykan12

[Colonel M]

I'd like to ask how Gatrie getting the crown is favoritism if possible. And I mean how people taking this resource actually yields a positive result that is better to that of Gatrie's.

[dondon151]

I'd like to ask how Gatrie getting the crown is favoritism if possible. And I mean how people taking this resource actually yields a positive result that is better to that of Gatrie's.

It's not favoritism, although I'm just arguing semantics. Gatrie making the best use of the crown doesn't mean that he's entitled to it, just like how in FE11, early Master Seals (chapter 10 and 12) aren't automatically given to the 3 best units.

Let's say that the only viable choices for the 3-3 crown are Gatrie, Titania, Haar, and Soren, which is still much less than all of the possible candidates that Vykan listed. I could say that the likelihood of them getting the crown, respectively, is 40, 30, 20, and 10 percent respectively. The more prospective candidates there are, the less likely it is that Gatrie gets his crown. And even if he is the best candidate, the chances that he gets the crown are still rather small.

I know that this will probably receive quite a few accusations of using arbitrary values, but realize that a crown for Gatrie, even if it is the best allocation of the resource, is nowhere near guaranteed given how much others benefit from it.

Edited July 9, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Only thing I want to say is that unlike FE10, SD doesn't promote units at Lv 21.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[cheetah7071]

Since nobody seemed to contest Skrimir>Tanith, I guess that just leaves the exact positioning. In general I'm more tempted to move Tanith down than Skrimir up; I think Skrimir would have a hard time climbing over Muarim simply due to Muarim's part 1. Any thoughts?

[Vykan12]

I look at it more as comparing the effects of resource allotment.

Excuse me for the arbitrary values in advance. Let's suppose Gatrie with a crown has +8 benefit, and giving it to Mia has +6 benefit. Gatrie using the crown better than her only adds up to a +2 effect, which is a lot smaller than the +8 effect he has if we just look at his crowned performance alone. Evidently, the more units who make decent use of the crown, the smaller Gatrie's advantage becomes.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Since nobody seemed to contest Skrimir>Tanith, I guess that just leaves the exact positioning. In general I'm more tempted to move Tanith down than Skrimir up; I think Skrimir would have a hard time climbing over Muarim simply due to Muarim's part 1. Any thoughts?

I think this is fair.

I also find Vykan pretty convincing here for the record, especially on the subject of crowning.

Edited July 9, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Skrimir vs Tanith requires discussion? Lawl.

Tanith lv --/20/1 (B Sigrun?, silver greatlance): 40 hp, 43 atk, 27 AS, 25 def, 26 res, 82 avo

Skrimir base lv: 66 hp, 54 atk, 26 AS, 32 def, 18 res, 76 avo

Come on, all this bridge and desert hype is getting out of hand if someone can actually make a case for Tanith here, and Skrimir has full move in the desert anyway once transformed.