OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

Gave a fair amount of bexp to Laura so when healing is unnecessary in part 3 she can actually help to remove stuff.

And I still couldn't get Nolan, Jill, and Ilyana to level 19. I got Micaiah to level 20, but that's it, and it took paragon in 1-9, which took it from Z or Sothe in 1-8 since we can't access anyone else in the base. And I let Micaiah kill as much as I could in 1-9 and attack as little as possible in 1-E to give more exp to what I was training.

Those are the problems.

Giving BEXP to Laura is a waste of resources, since she's a lot better off at healing than potshotting, and extra levels don't really help her durability. Ditto for Micaiah, especially since Micaiah caps mag so ridiculously fast for physic/fortify/whatever you want.

Funny, because you refuse to even consider Aran with a robe

Sure, killing a bunch of pegs on turn 10 in 1-6-2 and mounted knights in 1-6-2 would get more experience, so would killing the reinforcements of 1-7, but you can't tell me you can kill all these things and finish 1-6-* in a combined total of 15 turns (usually 9+6) and finish 1-7 in 10 turns.

I'm pretty sure you don't actually need to take 15 turns to beat both 1-6-1 and 1-6-2. I recall people beating it in more than 15 turns and still getting max BEXP, if that's what you're worried about.

This is largely because I think beating 1-6-2 in 6 turns is REALLY fast, even if you bumrush with prepromos. Tauroneo can't even reach the boss in 6 turns, and if you're blazing ahead that quickly even Volug/Sothe/Zihark can die.

And the reason why being 2HKO'd is bad, is because everyone else is. And they have better endgames than he does. And Edward is considered way worse, but he's 2HKO'd too.

So suddenly 0% chance of surviving 2 tigers is comparable to having something WAY higher than 0% chance?

Um, even a 20/1 Aran is basically even money for being 2RKO'd instead of 3RKO'd. I don't think having a ~50% chance of being 2RKO'd is something to ignore.

http://www.feplanet.net/games-10-characters-averages/8

http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=game...;id=8&key=1

http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=game...;id=8&key=7

He has 65% chance of having 21 def at 20/1, and 50% chance of having 33 HP or more.

By leveling up just ONCE, he now has a 60% chance of having 33 HP or more, and 78% chance of having 21 def or more.

Since you like arguing for Boyd, I'll give you his % chances of having his average speed or more, just to show you that Aran's chances for hitting those HP/def/whatever averages are high.

http://www.feplanet.net/games-10-characters-averages/49

For example, Boyd has a 64% chance of having 22 or more spd by 17/0.

Yet you have no qualms assuming Boyd will always have average speed, even though if he's even slightly spd screwed he just became a giant waste of exp.

As for 3-13, where he is more likely to be 3RKOd, Nolan can get there easily if you don't give him double earth. Considering dodging for him is unreliable even with double earth, I'd say being at around level 6 or 7 for 3-13 is reasonable. He's 3RKOd at that point from 41 mt Tigers with an A def support, and depending on his levels, 20/5 if he's blessed and 20/8 if he's screwed will manage (he lives by 4.4 hp at level 8, using averages, so he'd have to be rather screwed to die at level 20/8.)

So one extra unit can be 3HKO'd and suddenly Aran is useless? wtf?

Are you are counting 1-3? He's facing less than half the map. Generally the only way to finish stuff on time that I found was letting Sothe and Volug and similar units weaken as much as I could, and kill those weakened things with the guys I was training. That limits the amount of hit experience a fair deal, which adds up and likely costs my 4 tier 1s each a level. But only 1 level anyway.

less than half the map? wtf? He's recruited on turn 3. You finish 1-3 in 5 turns?

He basically applies this to half the map, less really since there is a limited number of enemies on the southwest side. Don't forget that the chokepoint is two wide and Nolan and Sothe do more damage and Nolan can have 1-2 range, and Sothe has a higher #HKO. Still, he might be able to exercise it on 1 turn, then we are rushing toward the escape square ignoring the reinforcements from the top and the chokepoint near the exit is one square, making it Sothe's job.

He can possibly help on 1 turn with his better #HKO totals than others, but both of the other 2 guys that can do it cause more damage and let us actually have a hope of finishing in 10 turns.

So because exactly two people can do it better than Aran, that makes Aran worthless.

I guess that means only the top 10 units in the game are only ever played, because we never need to use anyone else.

Nevermind that we might want Sothe to jump ahead of the frontlines and take care of an annoying enemy, like the boss who moves or an archer that can attack my tanks uncountered unless they're using crappy 1-2 range weapons.

So yeah, he's got an actual chance at being 3RKOd, unlike Ed, Leo, Micaiah, Laura, Ilyana, and Meg. But since those are not good percentages, to have a good strategy it would need to plan for him being 2RKOd anyway.

50ish% chance to be able to survive a huge number of combinations of enemies is actually pretty damn high for debates.

For example, let's say a unit has 95% true hit on enemies. After just 10 attacks, you actually have ~40% chance of missing one of your attacks. Is 95 true hit suddenly not reliable?

Anyway, Muarim, Tormod, Vika, Sothe, Volug.

Funny, because you only talked about Tormod.

You didn't talk about Muarim/Vika, probably because you knew they had transformation gauges and can't even tank half the time, especially Vika who has 38 HP/7 def untransformed.

I don't have a problem with Boyd and Aran fighting over who isn't the bottom of upper mid. Maybe one or the other should be higher, but I haven't seen a convincing argument for kicking either out of upper mid, nor have I seen one for putting either higher than that.

The difference between Boyd and Aran is that Boyd is getting massively OUTCLASSED by more than 5 guys in part 3, which apparently makes Aran worthless in every part 1 chapter because he's losing to like 2 guys in 1-3 and 1-4, and then like 3-5 guys for the other part 1 chapters.

List of d00ds Boyd loses to in part 3...

Haar, Ike, Titania, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Oscar, Ranulf, Ulki, Janaff, Mordy

The sad thing is that Neph isn't far behind Boyd either, and Soren is actually comparable.

Oh, and Reyson counts too, since when you consider second actions every turn, my uber guys can extend their leads by even more (for example, if unit A is hitting enemies for 100% of their HP while unit B is hitting for 50%, this means in one attack unit A is doing 50% more HP damage, but after 2, it increases to 100% more HP damage). Rafiel, on the other hand, for the DB, only really does that in 1-E, since in 1-8 he's in the middle of nowhere and is stuck chanting Nailah/Volug.

But apparently, losing to this many people can still net Boyd neutral utility, yet Aran losing to a few people in part 1 suddenly means he isn't?

btw, if you really want to use Aran in part 4, you can BEXP abuse him, since he has 3 stats capped by 20/8, and spd is tied with lck for his second highest remaining growth. Of course that is a lot of BEXP, but then again Boyd would need a speedwing + paragon (an Aran who caps spd in 2nd tier will have 28 in tier 3. Boyd with a speedwing doesn't match that until 20/20/2, and while Boyd does have a 10 higher growth, Aran caps 3 stats by 20/20/11 again and can be BEXP'd again. Aran will also have a lot more def than Boyd too, versus Boyd having more str which is fairly overkill), plus Aran was actually above average in part 1 and 3 (cry about his chances to get HP/def screwed all you want and can't avoid getting 2HKO'd in laguz chapters, it's still 1235123613261236 times better than people having a near 0% chance of surviving those same chapters), so taking extra resources just puts his performance back down to about average anyway.

the difference, of course, is taht Aran doesn't HAVE to do this, especially if he was getting RNG screwed. You can just drop him after part 3. Boyd MUST take resources if he ever wants to do anything worthwhile.

That's really the difference between being mid tier and being higher than mid tier. The good units don't REQUIRE favoritism to be good at something. Mid tier units do.

Yes, yes, mordy's a fine tank. But he's got 38 mt and no doubling. He's 3HKO on stuff, and that means that after 1 hit anyone who is borderline 2RKOing won't be able to finish stuff off. When you've got many other tanks that can cause more damage, some of whom even kill from time to time or always, why let Mordy do it?

Actually, you fail to realize that Mordy is only level 16 and levels up relatively quickly, and then he can also support for more att because he's water affinity.

Resolve is favouritism. Mordy uses it well, but I'm not sure if it's leagues better than others. If you can prove that the gap between him and anybody else for taking resolve is similar to the gap between Gatrie and others for taking the crown, then I'll assume that Mordy with resolve isn't similar favouritism to Boyd with a speedwing.

- Mordy has absolutely no issues surviving at under half HP. His only problem is mages, but generally, anyone that has doubling issues and could benefit from resolve's spd boost don't really like mages either (Haar, Boyd, etc.). He has a gauge to watch for, but it's far, far easier to keep afloat than trying to juggle your HP and keep it under 50% while still staying alive.

- Mordy doubling means he gains strike rank twice as fast. The other people who don't double don't really need extra WEXP.

- Mordy can't be doubling even with a speedwing, while some people like Gatrie and Titania can find other ways to double without resolve (e.g. Gatrie crown), which gives you a much bigger incentive to give him the resolve and the others their other methods.

- For units that are already doubling, such as Mia or Neph, resolve mainly just boosts durability. But since

So, they are tied in 3-11 and 3-E, and with an early wing Boyd is even in 3-8. Anything Oscar doubles, so will Boyd, and Boyd will kill it while Oscar likely won't.

Well, obviously if you threw a speedwing on Boyd and didn't give anything to Oscar, it'll look a lot better for Boyd's case. It doesn't take a scientist to realize that.

The difference is that Oscar is more than capable WITHOUT anything, and if you do give him anything it just makes him better. Boyd is LAME without anything.

[Interceptor]

There is no bright line passing through the center of the tier list that say "below here, there be dragons".

The tier breakdowns are, in my opinion, only to delineate jumps in performance. There is no reason for tier groupings to be equal in number, nor can you realistically say that everyone under a certain point has "negative utility" or some other mouthful of garbage. The point of High tier, for example, is that basically everyone in High tier is within spitting distance of each other, and there is some thing or things significant about them that sets them above the Upper Mids, but not quite in the same class as Top.

Boyd ought to be in the same tier as people that he is roughly comparable to. It's not realistic to hand-wave all of the important details about his performance, and then assert that he can't possibly be better than some arbitrary line that you drew in the sand.

I'd like to also throw in something here, and re-state for the umpteenth time that the Dawn Brigade Bump<tm> was bullshit in November 2007, even though we didn't know it yet, and it's still bullshit in July 2009, now that the fullness of the game's quirks have been revealed. Saying that Aran is only getting beaten by a certain couple of guys compared to Boyd getting beaten by a whole mess of them is completely disingenuous, because it ignores the magnitude of the ass-whipping, and it also ignores the cost of actually using Aran for anything other than very early-game performance.

The magnitude of the performance gap is the easiest thing to point out. Nobody is getting destroyed in the GMs like Aran (and Nolan, and Eddie, and Leonardo, and everyone else) is getting destroyed in the DB. Let's call Ike the best unit in the GMs, and we'll posit for the sake of argument that his offense is twice as good as Boyd, he's twice as durable, and we put it into a magical machine that tells us that Ike is 4x better than Boyd.

Now let's do the same thing for Aran, and we'll compare him to Tauroneo, Nailah, and the BK. The machine coughs up black smoke and explodes. That's how badly Aran is getting obliterated. All of them are 100% ORKO on a totally ridiculous number of units. Nailah and the BK are essentially impossible to kill. Tauroneo is so hard to kill that if the clear requirements of 1-6 were to have Tauroneo commit suicide, it'd take a while to pull off, because the biggest and baddest Fighter in the entire level is still 8HKO on Tauroneo and can only hit him half the time.

The second issue is the cost of actually using first tier units for anything. The prepromotes and pseudo-prepromo (Volug) are entirely badass enough to get you through Part 1, you don't even need to train Micaiah. Part 3 can be Easy Buttoned by a Sothe/BK/Savior solo in 3-6 (slower than a proper team, but saves oh-so-much time in not needing to train, 3-12 can be handled by ZiharkxVolug along with T and Sothe backed up by healers, and 3-13 requires a handful of serious units, scrubs to plug the other holes, and some manual ballista control. Now it's 3-E and you're done with the DB forever.

If this "faster = better" is used as the baseline, the DB is full of crap-tier garbage. It's not sufficent to counter by saying that Ike/Raisin/Haar trio all of Part 3, or that you arrive in Part 4 with nobody to fill holes except tier 2 GMs, because slowing down to train GMs is a lot less expensive than training the DB. It costs you fewer turns over the fullness of time and gets you more bang for your buck to build up a GM unit, since they already start at tier 2, their chapters are altogether easier, and they have some great CEXP-farming chapters in the line of forced 3-P/3-1, 3-3 while fires are being set, 3-5 while you set up a Lombroso steal/kill, 3-7 while you run out the clock, the 3-8/3-10 Rout-fests that require strong units in multiple places, the time you're killing in 3-11 while you get Ike to the Sieze tile, and the free-for-all in 3-E while you fight the NPCs for kills.

I know that most people don't like to think of a tier list that takes these things into consideration, but it's the reality of how this game works. Training a tier 1 unit in the DB seriously... this very often means that you leave a lot of turn-saving measures on the table in the process of making them marginally usable in Part 3/4.

[Progenitus]

I said I was going to ignore int, but this opportunity to make int into a big fool was just too good to pass up.

I'd like to also throw in something here, and re-state for the umpteenth time that the Dawn Brigade Bump<tm> was bullshit in November 2007, even though we didn't know it yet, and it's still bullshit in July 2009, now that the fullness of the game's quirks have been revealed. Saying that Aran is only getting beaten by a certain couple of guys compared to Boyd getting beaten by a whole mess of them is completely disingenuous, because it ignores the magnitude of the ass-whipping, and it also ignores the cost of actually using Aran for anything other than very early-game performance.

The magnitude of the performance gap is the easiest thing to point out. Nobody is getting destroyed in the GMs like Aran (and Nolan, and Eddie, and Leonardo, and everyone else) is getting destroyed in the DB. Let's call Ike the best unit in the GMs, and we'll posit for the sake of argument that his offense is twice as good as Boyd, he's twice as durable, and we put it into a magical machine that tells us that Ike is 4x better than Boyd.

Now let's do the same thing for Aran, and we'll compare him to Tauroneo, Nailah, and the BK. The machine coughs up black smoke and explodes. That's how badly Aran is getting obliterated. All of them are 100% ORKO on a totally ridiculous number of units. Nailah and the BK are essentially impossible to kill. Tauroneo is so hard to kill that if the clear requirements of 1-6 were to have Tauroneo commit suicide, it'd take a while to pull off, because the biggest and baddest Fighter in the entire level is still 8HKO on Tauroneo and can only hit him half the time.

Oh man, now here's where we get to not only the fact that Int is a dumbass, but the fact that he loves pulling double standards everywhere.

First, he claims that "magnitude" is the only factor when it comes to "ass-whipping". It's not, he's also ignoring how LONG they're ass-whipping. Tauroneo/BK/Nailah are only around for 1-2 chapters (and even for Nailah, one of those chapters is 1-8, where they're on opposite sides of the map and not really competing against each other in anything). The people beating the shit out of Boyd, however, are people like Ike and Haar, who are around for basically FOREVER.

You'd have to be a dunce like int to think pwning for 1-2 chapters has the same effect as pwning for like 10.

Next, he greatly exaggerates the leads the prepromos have over Aran. Tauroneo/BK/whatever are one rounding and never dying, sure. But Aran himself is generally 2HKOing, sometimes 3HKOing, and the amount of hits he takes before he dies depends on when in part 1 we're talking about (in 1-6, it's sometimes a 3HKO but more often a 4HKO, while in 1-E where BK/Nailah are, it ranges from anywhere between 3HKO and like 8HKO or something ridiculous, and some enemies don't even damage him anymore).

So let's first examine int's measuring stick, with this quote about Ike's "offense is twice as good as Boyd, he's twice as durable, and we put it into a magical machine that tells us that Ike is 4x better than Boyd". On offense, Ike doubles fairly often and generally one rounds and Boyd doesn't and generally 2 rounds, hence offense that is "twice as good". Twice as durable is a bit iffier, but because Ike wins def and eventually avoid by so much, Ike surviving twice as many hits and thus giving him "twice" the durability sounds like a good rough estimation. Thus Ike would be "four times as good" by this magical machine, which is what Int said.

Now let's use the same measuring stick (not saying it's right or wrong, just using the same one int used for consistency, just to show that int is a tool). Since Tauroneo is one rounding and Aran is generally 2-3 rounding in 1-6, Tauroneo's offense in this situation would be 2-3 times as good. As for durability, it would be maybe 2 times as good, maybe 3 (since that would effectively be a 6-8HKO, since Aran's getting 3-4HKO'd, but when you reach those durability numbers, you don't REALLY care too much if you're getting 6-8HKO'd or 10HKO'd or never dying, similar to how Ulki's durability lead on janaff isn't terribly large since Janaff himself is getting killed at ridiculously low hit rates with good XHKO's.... so 2-3 times as good sounds like a good estimation). So that would put Tauroneo 4-9 times as good as Aran. Let's just say 6 times better.

BK is beating Aran by even less, even though he's a stat wall, since Aran should definitely be 2HKOing non-armors, but now should be OHKOing mages, so that's only ~2x the offense by int's measuring stick. Now Aran is getting anywhere between 3-8HKO, which means that durability lead BK has is not worth a whole lot. However he does have 2-range, while Aran's hit with javelin sucks (zomg int must love this statement), so let's say ~5x as good.

Nailah is trickier, because her stats are just as godly but now has more move. So maybe 5-6x as good.

So, actually, Tauroneo/BK/Nailah are only beating Aran by a slightly greater margin than someone like Ike is beating Boyd. And then the problems arise, because as said before, these people are only beating Aran for 1-2 chapters, while Ike is beating Boyd FOREVER, AND then there are even more people beating Boyd. Even if it's not by the same margin as Ike beats Boyd, the fact is that they're beating Boyd. Gatrie has at least twice the durability (plus requires less favoritism to double), Titania has a bit more durability but also canto (also requires less favoritism to double), and then we also have the hawks coming in for more rapage, and then we also have Reyson by 3-5 which only extends the gaps (since this can give my rape units even more actions to do even more extravagant things over Boyd), while Rafiel doesn't really Aran by nearly as much because, like Nailah, he's on the opposite side of the map in 1-8 and is never competition against Aran, and so only really competes in 1-E. And so on.

So, can we conclude that Boyd gets shitstomped by the top tier GMs far harder than Aran gets shitstomped by the top tier DB? The answer is an astounding yes.

Now, not only that, in previous arguments, int claims that Boyd getting 3-4HKO'd is perfectly serviceable. Which would imply that durability leads beyond 3-4HKO are largely superfluous, since 3-4HKO is okay. In that case, since Aran is getting 3-4HKO'd himself (and only gets better the later you get into part 1), then why is it that the prepromos stomping him in durability (he clearly mentioned that the likes of Tauroneo are not dying, implying that their durability leads matter), but not the likes of Ike/Haar/Gatrie/etc. stomping Boyd? Why is it bad for Aran to be getting outclassed when he's getting 3-4HKO'd, but it's fine for someone like Boyd to get 3-4HKO'd when he's getting outclassed?

The only answer, of course, is that Int is just a mindless Aran hater desperate to sandbag him as much as possible and constantly pulling double standards all over the place.

Now before anyone strawmans me, I do think Aran getting 3-4HKO'd in 1-6 could be better when you have Tauroneo godmoding, and Volug beating him, and Sothe doing about the same (I think they'll have similar HP/def, and Sothe has avoid). But the number of people beating him is far less than the number of people beating Boyd's 3-4HKO, which is why Aran's durability is superior to Boyd's relative to the team.

The second issue is the cost of actually using first tier units for anything. The prepromotes and pseudo-prepromo (Volug) are entirely badass enough to get you through Part 1, you don't even need to train Micaiah. Part 3 can be Easy Buttoned by a Sothe/BK/Savior solo in 3-6 (slower than a proper team, but saves oh-so-much time in not needing to train, 3-12 can be handled by ZiharkxVolug along with T and Sothe backed up by healers, and 3-13 requires a handful of serious units, scrubs to plug the other holes, and some manual ballista control. Now it's 3-E and you're done with the DB forever.

If this "faster = better" is used as the baseline, the DB is full of crap-tier garbage. It's not sufficent to counter by saying that Ike/Raisin/Haar trio all of Part 3, or that you arrive in Part 4 with nobody to fill holes except tier 2 GMs, because slowing down to train GMs is a lot less expensive than training the DB. It costs you fewer turns over the fullness of time and gets you more bang for your buck to build up a GM unit, since they already start at tier 2, their chapters are altogether easier, and they have some great CEXP-farming chapters in the line of forced 3-P/3-1, 3-3 while fires are being set, 3-5 while you set up a Lombroso steal/kill, 3-7 while you run out the clock, the 3-8/3-10 Rout-fests that require strong units in multiple places, the time you're killing in 3-11 while you get Ike to the Sieze tile, and the free-for-all in 3-E while you fight the NPCs for kills.

I can generally beat part 1 within the turn limit for max BEXP for all chapters except for 1-2 (to get the chests) and 1-4 (get the hidden items) and still get the DB I want to use to close to level 20 by the end of 1-E (Nolan was actually close to level 20 by the START of 1-E so I threw an early seal on him), so I was going pretty fast through the chapters already. While I do say I could have gone faster if I had my prepromos solo maps instead of my usual "avoid using them if possible", I seriously doubt I could have gone so much faster in part 1 to the point where it will override making part 3 and 4 easier and faster for me because I don't have underleveled pieces of crap. To give you an idea of how fast I was already going in 1-6, 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E, I generally had Micaiah use her full move every single turn to move forward, and so you can't get THAT much faster than that other than "Nailah rescues Micaiah and blasts through 1-E and wins", which is pretty retarded since now you not only lose out on CEXP, but the items in the chests too, and it's only possible in 1-E.

In fact, it's faster if you use a regular team of Nolan/Aran/Zihark/whatever ANYWAY. In a chapter like 1-6, for example, Tauroneo is only one unit, and enemies are everywhere. As awesome as he is, he can only kill the enemies that reach him, so you're better off spreading your units out.

Also, the idea that the DB have no one worth training and thus we don't need them to bolster our ranks is idiotic beyond belief. Let me make a comparison with one of int's favorite units.

20/15/1 Nolan

50 HP, 26.25 str, 9 mag, 28 skl, 28 spd, 22 lck, 20.75 def, 13 res

20/20/1 Mia

44 HP, 25.85 str, 10.95 mag, 32 skl, 32 spd, 22.55 lck, 21.2 def, 15.25 res

Mia has more crit, but Nolan's mastery activates more often (28% Colossus vs 16% Astra, plus his increases at a faster rate).

Mia has more spd, but Nolan is probably doubling everything not an SM, and if he can't he only needs a few levels to do it anyway because he has a 60% growth.

Mia has att from supports, but Nolan has axes which generally have more mt than swords.

Nolan has Tarvos + earth affinity for an obvious durability lead, and a pretty big one at that.

Their growths are too similar to really care.

And the only real drawback I suffered is that I threw a master crown on Nolan. Sounds like a damn good trade off to me.

btw, Jill at the same level as Nolan has pretty similar stats to Mia as well. She loses str slightly and has some issues doubling (1 less spd than Nolan), but still has axes, actually has 25 def before any supports, and flies.

Zihark is pretty much Mia with less att but more avoid + innate adept, although because he's just a higher level than Nolan/Jill, he may not even need an early crown if you can't afford to give him one. He can probably just tank the rest of his tier 2 levels.

Or another comparison with someone regarded as a good unit.

20 Volug

53.75 HP, 12.25 str, 2.75 mag, 13.75 skl, 15 spd, 17.5 lck, 9.75 def, 5.5 res

28 Ulki

59 HP, 14 str, 3 mag, 17 skl, 18 spd, 25 lck, 11 def, 10 res

Ulki has ~4 more str transformed and att from supports, but Volug is likely at SS strike instead of ulki being at S-strike, plus wolf claw has 1 more mt than hawk talon, so their att is similar.

Ulki has spd/lck/vigilance but Volug has earth support.

Ulki is close to getting his mastery, but Volug gains levels a lot faster (leveling like a 20/20 Beorc vs leveling like a 20/20/16 beorc).

Ulki has HP/def/res which is largely overkill at this point.

Ulki has canto, which is the only real big advantage.

So Volug stacks up pretty well to a monster like Ulki.

But nah. the DB are just a means to an end. They aren't worth training, right?

I spent a lot more time on this than I wanted to, but hopefully everyone will realize int is a waste of their time.

Oh, and maybe I should respond to this before people cry "BUT YOU MISSED THIS PART OF HIS POST"

There is no bright line passing through the center of the tier list that say "below here, there be dragons".

The tier breakdowns are, in my opinion, only to delineate jumps in performance. There is no reason for tier groupings to be equal in number, nor can you realistically say that everyone under a certain point has "negative utility" or some other mouthful of garbage. The point of High tier, for example, is that basically everyone in High tier is within spitting distance of each other, and there is some thing or things significant about them that sets them above the Upper Mids, but not quite in the same class as Top.

Boyd ought to be in the same tier as people that he is roughly comparable to. It's not realistic to hand-wave all of the important details about his performance, and then assert that he can't possibly be better than some arbitrary line that you drew in the sand.

That's what I'm doing, genius.

The difference between upper mid tiers and mid tiers is that the upper mid tiers can actually do something without given any favoritism, or if they require favoritism, they better be damn good. Boyd is not the former (you can't honestly say never doubling and not having that spectacular durability with only average mobility is anything special), and even with favoritism, he's not the latter, because with a speedwing he's not "damn good" in part 3. He's still like one of your worst units possible for a huge chunk of part 3, which is a LONG time for someone to catch up.

Edited July 15, 2009 by smash fanatic

[dondon151]

What level is Aran supposed to be at by 3-6? If it's any higher than like 16/1, I'm going to call bullshit.

[Progenitus]

Humor me and explain why he can't be above level 16 by 3-6.

[cheetah7071]

Well, it's been five days with no word from Red Fox of Fire about Tanith vs Skrimir. Since he was the only one doubting the move, can we get the list updated? I'd go into full debate mode, but without anybody debating against me it'd be really silly.

Also, what is it about the halberdiers that bring out the worst in every debater, every time? I swear the old tier topics on gameFAQs spent more time on Nephenee vs Oscar than on anything besides whether or not the BK should be on the list, and Aran seems to be just as bad.

Edited July 15, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Shadow Mir]

Well, it's been five days with no word from Red Fox of Fire about Tanith vs Skrimir. Since he was the only one doubting the move, can we get the list updated? I'd go into full debate mode, but without anybody debating against me it'd be really silly.

Also, what is it about the halberdiers that bring out the worst in every debater, every time? I swear the old tier topics on gameFAQs spent more time on Nephenee vs Oscar than on anything besides whether or not the BK should be on the list, and Aran seems to be just as bad.

I was about to bring up Tanith vs Skrimir, but remembered that Red Fox was creating an argument for Tanith.

[dondon151]

Using my benchmark of 18/0 Nolan by the end of 1-E, and acknowledging the fact that Aran joins 2 maps later than Nolan 2 levels lower, it logically follows that Aran should end 1-E at 16/0. Obviously this isn't sufficient to justify my argument, so I'll look at this more objectively.

Aran has 8 maps to gain 13 levels at your estimate. That's 1.625 levels per chapter, a giant overestimate factoring Aran's relatively poor offense and the HM EXP cut. 16/0 Aran by the end of 1-E is 1.125 levels per chapter, which factors in the aforementioned hindrances to Aran's EXP gain as well as a few more chapter-specific ones.

1-3: Aran joins. He joins by like turn 2, but if the group is going east, he won't be able to catch up and see combat. The group would rather go east, as it's less dangerous to face fewer enemies...

1-6-1: there are 13 starting enemy units on the map. The 5 enemy units up in the northwest corner will take too long for Aran to reach. The northeast reinforcements are best left to Tauroneo. The PK reinforcements are better suited for other units (like Jill) to take on.

1-8: there are 10 starting enemy units on the east side of the map and 6 player units that will go around to engage them.

1-E: this chapter is terrible for pretty much every first tier DB unit. As if Aran didn't have enough offensive issues already, his hit becomes less reliable, and given the number of narrow corridors in this map, it's less efficient for Aran to take an attacking space from one of the units that curbstomp him.

Sorry I'm watching TV at the same time...

Edited July 15, 2009 by dondon151

[charmander6000]

What level is Aran supposed to be at by 3-6? If it's any higher than like 16/1, I'm going to call bullshit.

Only 9 levels in 7.5 maps? I'm calling BS on you.

[grandjackal]

I've no clue, but I can't imagine Danved vs Bastian going any better because of it. To be honest, I think I'd learn more towards Bastian, as Danved's just thoroughly all around unimpressive.

[Progenitus]

Using my benchmark of 18/0 Nolan by the end of 1-E, and factoring in the fact that Aran joins 2 maps later than Nolan 2 levels lower, it logically follows that Aran should end 1-E at 16/0. Obviously this isn't sufficient to justify my argument, so I'll look at this more objectively.

Nolan only 18/0 by the end of 1-E is a pretty serious underestimation, just to let you know.

Aran has 8 maps to gain 13 levels at your estimate. That's 1.625 levels per chapter, a giant overestimate factoring Aran's relatively poor offense and the HM EXP cut. 16/0 Aran by the end of 1-E is 1.125 levels per chapter, which factors in the aforementioned hindrances to Aran's EXP gain as well as a few more chapter-specific ones.

what? Only offense is required to get kills? Durability matters as well. You can't attack anything if you don't have durability, which is what Aran has over people like Edward and Jill, and eventually Nolan/Zihark/Sothe, and even Volug towards the end of part 1.

Plus, he's 2HKOing easily towards the end of part 1, so lawl @ these "poor offense" comments.

1.625 levels per chapter is not a "giant overestimate" unless you're training 10 guys or something stupid. DB chapters have lots of chokepoints in general, which means you have a much easier time funneling the kills to the units you want to train, be it Aran or Nolan or edward or Jill or whoever.

1-3: Aran joins. He joins by like turn 2, but if the group is going east, he won't be able to catch up and see combat. The group would rather go east, as it's less dangerous to face fewer enemies...

If this chapter is so hard that you actually need to face fewer enemies, I question how you actually managed to beat a hard chapter like 4-4...

1-3 is stupidly easy to beat unless you try to solo the map with someone not named Sothe, since the enemies come in small groups.

1-6-1: there are 13 starting enemy units on the map. The 5 enemy units up in the northwest corner will take too long for Aran to reach. The northeast reinforcements are best left to Tauroneo. The PK reinforcements are better suited for other units (like Jill) to take on.

wtf? Who's reaching that northwest corner then? Volug? So he's going to solo half the map? Zihark and Sothe don't move much faster than Aran, and Jill doesn't have nearly enough durability to blast ahead of Aran.

also, lawl @ thinking Jill can handle all the pegs by herself. they're scattered across the map and come in groups and if you don't take them out immediately they'll just go for someone like Micaiah or Laura, and she's awful at taking them down because she can't even double the javelin ones and the steel lance ones are 4HKOing her (in comparison, they're like 6-7HKOing Aran).

and there are "13 starting enemies", but like 15 more come as reinforcements. That's plenty of kills to distribute.

1-8: there are 10 starting enemy units on the east side of the map and 6 player units that will go around to engage them.

Which makes it even easier to funnel kills into the units you want (6 PCs vs 10 enemies, and you aren't facing all the enemies at the same time), unless you WANT to be training 6 units plus Volug (who's on the other side of the map) for some retarded reason.

1-E: this chapter is terrible for pretty much every first tier DB unit. As if Aran didn't have enough offensive issues already, his hit becomes less reliable, and given the number of narrow corridors in this map, it's less efficient for Aran to take an attacking space from one of the units that curbstomp him.

hit problems? wtf? now you're really spouting BS. You don't make a forge for anyone?

And so you're saying you solo the map with BK/Nailah? That's really the only people who clearly beat Aran in thsi chapter.

[Vykan12]

Imagine how this debate would shift if instead of us discussing Adept, we were discussing Pavise. […] Shit, this hypothetical alone would bump Zihark up in the tier list considerably.

This is absurd. First off, pavise’s activation rate isn’t even reliable enough to cause the type of change in performance you’re suggesting. Assuming a --/6/0 Zihark, he has 24 skl. If a tiger has a 5% chance of killing him in 2 hits, that only falls 2.1%, which is still large. In other words, if he feared multiple tiger attacks before, he’d still fear them now.

Second, why are you placing so much emphasis on 1 freaking chapter? Zihark has a rough spot in 8.3% of his chapters, and yet mitigating that fault just a little is suddenly going to make him jump above Titania, Sothe and Leanne? Yeah right.

[dondon151]

Nolan only 18/0 by the end of 1-E is a pretty serious underestimation, just to let you know.

That's what I had, and I was pretty keen on bringing Nolan to 4-E.

what? Only offense is required to get kills? Durability matters as well. You can't attack anything if you don't have durability, which is what Aran has over people like Edward and Jill, and eventually Nolan/Zihark/Sothe, and even Volug towards the end of part 1.

Something like a 14/0 Aran with 27.5 HP/15.9 def is just about durably equal to base Sothe (35 HP/14 def), and something like a 19/0 Aran with 30 HP/19 def is about durably equal to base Volug (49 HP/13 def). Before these points, Aran loses durability. Therefore, he needs to go through a period where his durability is inferior to those characters that you listed, making it more difficult for him to surpass them, as before that point, he wants to see less enemy phase action.

Plus, he's 2HKOing easily towards the end of part 1, so lawl @ these "poor offense" comments.

29.3 atk Steel Lance Aran (20/0) misses the 2HKO on average against 1-E's 32 HP/14 def soldiers. Any lower than that and he starts missing 2HKOs against the fighters as well, which he is borderline against in the first place (35 HP/12 def). Armors are like a 4RKO.

1.625 levels per chapter is not a "giant overestimate" unless you're training 10 guys or something stupid. DB chapters have lots of chokepoints in general, which means you have a much easier time funneling the kills to the units you want to train, be it Aran or Nolan or edward or Jill or whoever.

1.625 levels per chapter is ludicrous for any other FE game, so I don't see how that's not the case here.

wtf? Who's reaching that northwest corner then? Volug? So he's going to solo half the map? Zihark and Sothe don't move much faster than Aran, and Jill doesn't have nearly enough durability to blast ahead of Aran.

Sothe and Zihark have 1 more move than Aran and Sothe isn't hindered as much by thickets, so that move leads compounds over time. The northwest corner of the map is as far as you can get from the starting point.

also, lawl @ thinking Jill can handle all the pegs by herself. they're scattered across the map and come in groups and if you don't take them out immediately they'll just go for someone like Micaiah or Laura, and she's awful at taking them down because she can't even double the javelin ones and the steel lance ones are 4HKOing her (in comparison, they're like 6-7HKOing Aran).

Jill can take out the Steel Lance PKs easily (4RKO is pretty good, btw).

and there are "13 starting enemies", but like 15 more come as reinforcements. That's plenty of kills to distribute.

The northeast reinforcements are best left to Tauroneo, and the northwest reinforcements are too far away, so at best Aran gets exposure to half of the PK reinforcements.

Which makes it even easier to funnel kills into the units you want (6 PCs vs 10 enemies, and you aren't facing all the enemies at the same time), unless you WANT to be training 6 units plus Volug (who's on the other side of the map) for some retarded reason.

I don't really buy this "funnel kills into the units you want crap" because that forces you to slow down and play less efficiently.

hit problems? wtf? now you're really spouting BS. You don't make a forge for anyone?

IIRC you can't forge steel weapons in part 1, so Aran's stuck to 65ish hit rates with a Steel Lance unless you give him at least a +3 MT Iron Lance forge or have him never possibly 2HKO enemies, ever.

And so you're saying you solo the map with BK/Nailah? That's really the only people who clearly beat Aran in thsi chapter.

Volug... And the best way to do this chapter is to use the three of them more than anyone else. I wouldn't go so far as to say "solo" since other dudes are good to have around to finish off enemies.

Edited July 15, 2009 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

This is absurd. First off, pavise’s activation rate isn’t even reliable enough to cause the type of change in performance you’re suggesting. Assuming a --/6/0 Zihark, he has 24 skl. If a tiger has a 5% chance of killing him in 2 hits, that only falls 2.1%, which is still large. In other words, if he feared multiple tiger attacks before, he’d still fear them now.

Second, why are you placing so much emphasis on 1 freaking chapter? Zihark has a rough spot in 8.3% of his chapters, and yet mitigating that fault just a little is suddenly going to make him jump above Titania, Sothe and Leanne? Yeah right.

I think Int's point that defensive skills (like Pavise and Cancel) should stay with the DB, since they help in the completion of their chapters. Adept on the other hand, doesn't do nearly as much good on Zihark as it would on the GM's, since Zihark's durability can make this a liability on 3-6 and 3-13. You could probably make a case for Volug getting Adept over Zihark if we don't want to give it to the GMs

@dondon Aran actually doesn't surpass Sothe/Volug in durability until later once we factor in that they have non-negligible avo rates.

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

This is absurd. First off, pavise’s activation rate isn’t even reliable enough to cause the type of change in performance you’re suggesting. Assuming a --/6/0 Zihark, he has 24 skl. If a tiger has a 5% chance of killing him in 2 hits, that only falls 2.1%, which is still large. In other words, if he feared multiple tiger attacks before, he’d still fear them now.

Irony is Vykan getting on my case for making an exaggeration in a hypothetical situation.

Two things to keep in mind:

1) I am already of the opinion that Zihark is over-rated on the tier list.

2) Pavise has the effect of augmenting the effect of his avoid, making it less likely to have to heal him. While he's still 2HKO'ed, this is, I think, significantly better. It does not remove the need to heal him when he gets hit, or watch his facings, but I would be hard-pressed to argue it to the GMs.

Second, why are you placing so much emphasis on 1 freaking chapter? Zihark has a rough spot in 8.3% of his chapters, and yet mitigating that fault just a little is suddenly going to make him jump above Titania, Sothe and Leanne? Yeah right.

What you see as placing emphasis is just counter-acting the people who pretend that his performance in 3-6 is as troublesome as a rainy day. I have to keep harping on his durability for the same reason that I have to repeatedly bring up Mia's Vantage, Nephenee's Part 2 NM, Shinon's Enemy Phase, Eddie's viability in HM, or any other subject on which there is mass denial.

Zihark is pretty average defensively in Part 1, and 3-13 is also a problem for him in ways that 3-6 is not. I can hide him behind T or something and give him a Storm Sword, or I can do the Smash Bumrush Strategy and attempt to scorhed-earth everything in sight, but what I am not doing is having him wall and frontline.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

@dondon Aran actually doesn't surpass Sothe/Volug in durability until later once we factor in that they have non-negligible avo rates.

I know, but I just wanted to stick to concrete durability for simplicity purposes. 14/0 Aran is pretty close to the end of part 1, and Sothe still wins in a few other ways.

[Interceptor]

Is smash's parade of straw man arguments the only interest this thread has in my Means To An End rant? I don't want to begin replying if someone else has something to say first.

[grandjackal]

WHOA WHOA WHOA! Hold the fuck up! How the fuck do the DB get Pavise when it matters, in part 3? Don't you only get it in part 4 from Tibarn and when you get it from a base convo in endgame?

[dondon151]

It's a hypothetical involving offensive and defensive skills.

[grandjackal]

Oh right, right...

...Ok, besides Cancel and Imbue, what possible defensive skills could possibly exist to help the DB's part 3? It doesn't seem major enough to matter regardless, especially since Cancel is also chance based.

[Interceptor]

Oh right, right...

...Ok, besides Cancel and Imbue, what possible defensive skills could possibly exist to help the DB's part 3? It doesn't seem major enough to matter regardless, especially since Cancel is also chance based.

There isn't one. The list of defensive modifcation possibilites is pretty thin. That's why I went with Pavise for my example, largely because it fires on Enemy Phase without having to rely on Vantage like Cancel would.

[Narga_Rocks]

Is smash's parade of straw man arguments the only interest this thread has in my Means To An End rant? I don't want to begin replying if someone else has something to say first.

Well, if I didn't like Jill, Nolan and Micaiah so much, I think I might be more accepting of it. I think it has more merit than smash thinks it does, although clearly that isn't saying much, so I might as well get into it. Keep in mind this is hardly serious and will likely waste the time of anyone reading what I have to say.

There is no bright line passing through the center of the tier list that say "below here, there be dragons".

4/10. I didn't really understand the dragon reference. Is it from something? Anyway, it just didn't work for me.

The tier breakdowns are, in my opinion, only to delineate jumps in performance. There is no reason for tier groupings to be equal in number, nor can you realistically say that everyone under a certain point has "negative utility" or some other mouthful of garbage. The point of High tier, for example, is that basically everyone in High tier is within spitting distance of each other, and there is some thing or things significant about them that sets them above the Upper Mids, but not quite in the same class as Top.

9/10. I'm not giving 10s unless I see something funny. I agree with this statement, but I hope people already knew this.

Boyd ought to be in the same tier as people that he is roughly comparable to. It's not realistic to hand-wave all of the important details about his performance, and then assert that he can't possibly be better than some arbitrary line that you drew in the sand.

5/10. I'm not seeing the point you are driving at here. I guess it is the idea that everything he can do is being ignored or something.

I'd like to also throw in something here, and re-state for the umpteenth time that the Dawn Brigade Bump<tm> was bullshit in November 2007, even though we didn't know it yet, and it's still bullshit in July 2009, now that the fullness of the game's quirks have been revealed. Saying that Aran is only getting beaten by a certain couple of guys compared to Boyd getting beaten by a whole mess of them is completely disingenuous, because it ignores the magnitude of the ass-whipping, and it also ignores the cost of actually using Aran for anything other than very early-game performance.

6/10. No comment.

The magnitude of the performance gap is the easiest thing to point out. Nobody is getting destroyed in the GMs like Aran (and Nolan, and Eddie, and Leonardo, and everyone else) is getting destroyed in the DB. Let's call Ike the best unit in the GMs, and we'll posit for the sake of argument that his offense is twice as good as Boyd, he's twice as durable, and we put it into a magical machine that tells us that Ike is 4x better than Boyd.

6/10. Smash actually has a point about how many maps they are in and how they can't exactly solo maps in a small number of turns. As for the Boyd thing, the magical machine bit is good, that's where most of your points are coming from.

Now let's do the same thing for Aran, and we'll compare him to Tauroneo, Nailah, and the BK. The machine coughs up black smoke and explodes. That's how badly Aran is getting obliterated. All of them are 100% ORKO on a totally ridiculous number of units. Nailah and the BK are essentially impossible to kill. Tauroneo is so hard to kill that if the clear requirements of 1-6 were to have Tauroneo commit suicide, it'd take a while to pull off, because the biggest and baddest Fighter in the entire level is still 8HKO on Tauroneo and can only hit him half the time.

8/10. The exploding thing is great, and the commit suicide objective is a funny thought, just imagine if it wasn't possible to unequip him. Still, Aran's hurt by those 3 in particular for 2 maps, because 1-8 is irrelevant for Nailah. Still, 2/7 maps or close to it is a fair amount of time.

The second issue is the cost of actually using first tier units for anything. The prepromotes and pseudo-prepromo (Volug) are entirely badass enough to get you through Part 1, you don't even need to train Micaiah. Part 3 can be Easy Buttoned by a Sothe/BK/Savior solo in 3-6 (slower than a proper team, but saves oh-so-much time in not needing to train, 3-12 can be handled by ZiharkxVolug along with T and Sothe backed up by healers, and 3-13 requires a handful of serious units, scrubs to plug the other holes, and some manual ballista control. Now it's 3-E and you're done with the DB forever.

5/10. I actually like having 34 speed units for endgame, but I suppose it isn't necessary. As such, I like taking Jill and Nolan to endgame. While they might not be necessary for part 3, they do okay there and will eventually reach a fine status. While we could easy button, it generally means we don't have a 34 speed user of Urvan, and I don't like that. Nor do we have high speed users of silver axe forges. The fact that others can pass in part 3 doesn't make training Nolan and Jill a waste of time. Training Micaiah also allows the forced priestess to be able to do something when healing is unnecessary in endgame. Or at least on turns where Laura or someone alone is sufficient.

If this "faster = better" is used as the baseline, the DB is full of crap-tier garbage. It's not sufficent to counter by saying that Ike/Raisin/Haar trio all of Part 3, or that you arrive in Part 4 with nobody to fill holes except tier 2 GMs, because slowing down to train GMs is a lot less expensive than training the DB. It costs you fewer turns over the fullness of time and gets you more bang for your buck to build up a GM unit, since they already start at tier 2, their chapters are altogether easier, and they have some great CEXP-farming chapters in the line of forced 3-P/3-1, 3-3 while fires are being set, 3-5 while you set up a Lombroso steal/kill, 3-7 while you run out the clock, the 3-8/3-10 Rout-fests that require strong units in multiple places, the time you're killing in 3-11 while you get Ike to the Sieze tile, and the free-for-all in 3-E while you fight the NPCs for kills.

7/10. This only really works if we define speed in real world time and not turn count. Which I think is actually reasonable because spending an hour and a half to pull out amazing tactical achievements allowing 4 weaklings plus Sothe and Volug to 8 turn 1-6-1 while Taur could've 14 turned it alone in half an hour doesn't exactly seem like it's faster. I don't think that Taur can 8 turn it alone, so he isn't taking fewer turns. The game might think it's faster because it took less turns with those weaklings, but we know it isn't. Heck, even if Taur took an hour and a half like the other method does, we didn't even have to think. However, getting this game and finding ways to not think seems a bit weird. That's focusing on the first sentence.

Anyway, you get 7/10 because that's a pretty good counter to a counter, and the Taur method is likely faster. Building up a GM unit is easy and they help lots in part 4 considering most maps only have 1 super unit and the rest are what we made. Then in 4-E we might have another easy button though in the royals and the pre-made units you get. I'm taking away 2 points because the GM chapters likely can be done with less thinking without raising more than Ike and Haar and healers, and it'll just make a small part of the game more difficult. Also taking away 1 point for lack of jokes.

I know that most people don't like to think of a tier list that takes these things into consideration, but it's the reality of how this game works. Training a tier 1 unit in the DB seriously... this very often means that you leave a lot of turn-saving measures on the table in the process of making them marginally usable in Part 3/4.

6/10

I'm still not convinced that Taur can cut down on turncount in 1-6, and Muarim and co. could likely rush the things in Micaiah's way before untransforming in 1-7, but we'd miss out on the soldiers. But if the focus is speed, who cares, I guess. Sothe, I guess, could likely clear enough of 1-3 for Micaiah to get out, and enough of 1-2 for Laura to get there. I suppose if we just deploy Micaiah and Sothe there are a couple spots she can hid behind Sothe, but I guess she can alternate between sacrifice and a vulnerary to keep him alive. Again, though, I don't see a reduction in turncount, just brain power and possibly time.

While I agree that it likely makes things easier, and often faster in real time, I don't see how it cuts down turncount.

~6.2/10, overall. You lost a fair amount of points because I'm not sure I see the turncount reduction. It might be possible I'm not seeing something, though.

[Vykan12]

I am already of the opinion that Zihark is over-rated on the tier list

Where would you want to see him moved, then?

Pavise has the effect of augmenting the effect of his avoid, making it less likely to have to heal him. While he's still 2HKO'ed, this is, I think, significantly better.

Except he can’t pair both resolve and pavise, and the former’s effect is much greater (25+ avo jump that is compounded by the 2RN system).

What you see as placing emphasis is just counter-acting the people who pretend that his performance in 3-6 is as troublesome as a rainy day.

And who here is denying that 3-6 is Zihark’s roughest chapter?

[Progenitus]

i love how int always says my arguments are strawmen.

Do you actually know what strawmen are?

That's what I had, and I was pretty keen on bringing Nolan to 4-E.

And I had Nolan at like 19/0 at the START of 1-E.

I have no clue what you did for the chapters, but considering I wasn't going slowly (I was generally making the turn limits for max BEXP, to give you an idea. The only times I went over the limit was because I wanted to get chests/hidden items), the only way you really could have gone any faster was solo with prepromos.

29.3 atk Steel Lance Aran (20/0) misses the 2HKO on average against 1-E's 32 HP/14 def soldiers. Any lower than that and he starts missing 2HKOs against the fighters as well, which he is borderline against in the first place (35 HP/12 def). Armors are like a 4RKO.

lawl @ aran using a generic steel lance.

btw, aran has 19.75 str at 20/0, which gives 29.75 att, not 29.3

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe10/average/aran.html

1.625 levels per chapter is ludicrous for any other FE game, so I don't see how that's not the case here.

wtf @ trying to use this as an argument. are you fucking retarded or something?

How many levels people gain in previous FE games has absolutely no effect on how many levels people gain in this game, because obviously every FE game has different chapter layouts, number of enemies available, number of units you can feasibly use/train, and fuck, even different exp systems (the GBA FEs use a much different exp system than FE9/10).

Sothe and Zihark have 1 more move than Aran and Sothe isn't hindered as much by thickets, so that move leads compounds over time. The northwest corner of the map is as far as you can get from the starting point.

So, does that mean the GM chapters get solo'd by mounted units because they have 2 more move than all your other foot units, so they can do shit like "reach the opposite side of the map faster", because obviously mobility is the only thing that matters when it comes to reaching a certain number of units. How capable the unit is of taking on such a huge group by themselves has no impact whatsoever, right?

I mean, who cares if Zihark is getting 3HKO'd and Sothe is getting 4HKO'd and Volug is getting 5HKO'd (and that's assuming they're all at full HP, which is not likely given that we're having them blast ahead and Laura isn't around to heal them) and because we're having them blast ahead, they're by themselves and so can't really make walls or limit the number of enemies that can attack them, right?

So the GMs need a serious revamp to the tier list. The mounted units are obviously the only ones that'll ever see action, since they have not 1, but TWO more move over the normal foot units, and gatrie just gets left in the dust becuase he has 3, AND these mounted units have canto. After just FOUR turns, FOUR, my mounted units could have moved a total of THIRTY-SIX spaces, while my normal foot units TWENTY-EIGHT. That's a difference of EIGHT. Holy crap, that's a lot of extra action those mounted units are seeing. Gatrie? He's only moved twenty four. lolgatrie. what a loser. gtfo of my sight plz

oh wait, nvm, you're just retarded.

So let's get back to reality kthnx

Jill can take out the Steel Lance PKs easily (4RKO is pretty good, btw).

Jill cannot take out the steel lance pegs any easier than anyone else (in fact, you want to lure the pegs down from the mountain and to your group so you can gang up on them, not have Jill try to solo them), and Aran's getting 4RKO'd too, except by a much larger portion of the map, but, Aran's durability doesn't matter, right? HE'S GARBAGE.

I don't really buy this "funnel kills into the units you want crap" because that forces you to slow down and play less efficiently.

I can easily beat chapters within the turn limit for maximum BEXP and still use this method, just to give you an idea of how fast I'm already going. Throwing prepromos like Tauroneo and Volug into a group of enemies is realyl the only way you can go faster.

Now I'm going to give you how to do this. It's extremely complicated, so you might want to take notes. Ready?

Okay, when there's an enemy, you first have someone attack it that you're not going to level up, such as Ilyana or Micaiah or something, and then you have the unit you do want to train, like Nolan or Aran, finish it off. Your unit you want to train gets the kill, the enemy is dead, no efficiency is lost. Everyone is happy.

Damn, that was hard.

I'm not saying we funnel EVERY kill to the units we're training, but because DB chapters are chokepoint central and you can more easily control which enemies to fight and kill, it's a LOT easier to feed kills to the people you want to give them to.

The funny thing is that this is around in EVERY FE game, at least the ones I've played (FE6-10). A game like FE9 gives you units in the earlygame that you're probably not going to use later on, like Gatrie/Shinon, so you can have them weaken something and then funnel the kill to a guy like Ike or Oscar or Soren. Even in this game, when we get to the GMs, we have tons of unit slots and more good units than we can reasonably train, which means you can use several units just to weaken things so your main team can get the kill. This isn't specific only to the DB. It's around for everyone. I have no clue what you're doing with your team if you aren't doing this.

IIRC you can't forge steel weapons in part 1, so Aran's stuck to 65ish hit rates with a Steel Lance unless you give him at least a +3 MT Iron Lance forge or have him never possibly 2HKO enemies, ever.

You can forge steel in 1-E.

And we have tons of gold in this game, to the point where throwing 4-5 mt and a bit of hit onto every forge for the DB we're using is pretty much the standard, so this BS about "omg aran can't hit with steel lance" needs to stop.

Volug... And the best way to do this chapter is to use the three of them more than anyone else. I wouldn't go so far as to say "solo" since other dudes are good to have around to finish off enemies.

The fastest way would be to have BK/Nailah solo the map.

The next fastest way, which is only *slightly* slower, is to actually use the guys like Nolan and Aran here so they get exp so they can make the rest of the game faster.

[dondon151]

btw, aran has 19.75 str at 20/0, which gives 29.75 att, not 29.3

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe10/average/aran.html

FEPlanet's averages are actually averages. SF's averages don't take into account cap ramming.

wtf @ trying to use this as an argument. are you fucking retarded or something?

I'd retort with an insult as I generally do when you initiate the flaming, but I'll take Shuuda's warning seriously for now.

How many levels people gain in previous FE games has absolutely no effect on how many levels people gain in this game, because obviously every FE game has different chapter layouts, number of enemies available, number of units you can feasibly use/train, and fuck, even different exp systems (the GBA FEs use a much different exp system than FE9/10).

You're right. 1-7, one of the more dense maps in the DB chapters, has the same amount of enemies as chapter 13 in FE7's HHM. The DB, in comparison to other FE earlygames, has a greater proportion of awesome units in the player army and a relative dearth of enemies. As for the differing EXP systems, I'm pretty sure that at equivalent levels, units in FE10 HM are gaining less EXP than units in FE7 HHM for both nonfatal and fatal rounds of combat.

If 1.5 levels per map is an overestimate for a game like FE7, 1.625 levels per map in FE10 can probably only be described by George W. Bush stringing prefixes together into incoherent words.

So, does that mean the GM chapters get solo'd by mounted units because they have 2 more move than all your other foot units, so they can do shit like "reach the opposite side of the map faster", because obviously mobility is the only thing that matters when it comes to reaching a certain number of units. How capable the unit is of taking on such a huge group by themselves has no impact whatsoever, right?

You're greatly exaggerating my point. I believe this is what you call a "straw man." I did not say that the GM chapters will be soloed by mounted units, nor did I say that the DB chapters will be soloed by Sothe, Zihark, and Volug (though they very well could be). I said merely that these 3 units would reach the enemies on the opposite end of the map faster.

There are 2 crucial differences between the scenario I mentioned and the scenario you fabricated. The 3 DB units are relatively more durable than the GM's mounts and have better offense. The 3 DB units will reach the 5 enemies in the northwest corner faster; nowhere did I say anything about them soloing the map.

I'm not going to bother quoting the rest of this point because I'm not the one who's retarded.

Jill cannot take out the steel lance pegs any easier than anyone else (in fact, you want to lure the pegs down from the mountain and to your group so you can gang up on them, not have Jill try to solo them), and Aran's getting 4RKO'd too, except by a much larger portion of the map, but, Aran's durability doesn't matter, right? HE'S GARBAGE.

Jill only needs 22 atk to ORKO Steel Lance PKs, which is a +3 MT Iron Axe forge. She also reaches them faster. Before you respond with "o you fucktard you didn't give Aran a forge for 1-E," it was because I thought that you couldn't forge Steel Lances for 1-E, so don't get you panties in a bunch. For the Javelin PK, it will inevitably get to your group anyway.

Okay, when there's an enemy, you first have someone attack it that you're not going to level up, such as Ilyana or Micaiah or something, and then you have the unit you do want to train, like Nolan or Aran, finish it off. Your unit you want to train gets the kill, the enemy is dead, no efficiency is lost. Everyone is happy.

Damn, that was hard.

I've tried this, and it doesn't work. Sorry. If I take a sample 9/0 Aran in 1-5 (21.5 atk Steel Lance, which I'm not even sure is available), he does 13-14 damage of the 30-31 HP that enemy fighters have and 10-11 damage of the 27-28 HP that enemy soldiers have. Ilyana needs to be at 16/0 on average to resolve this into a 2RKO with Elthunder against the fighter (rounding Aran's damage up and the fighter's HP down), and 20/1 on average for the soldier. For Micaiah it's easier with Thani and her magic growth, but here we have 1 member of the team who has her single hit damage output. Competition for finishing off that enemy is fierce and these opportunities don't happen that often, since Micaiah is the only member of the army that 2RKOs in conjunction to someone else, and she might want some KOs as well. Other units like Eddie, Leo, and Ilyana have worse chip damage and must resort to 3RKOs in conjunction with other DB units.

By the way, Micaiah needs to be 6/0 on average to resolve the 2RKO against the fighter and 10/0 for the soldier. This is with favorable rounding, of course. Numbers show that funneling EXP using crappy DB units isn't as easy as you make it seem.

And we have tons of gold in this game, to the point where throwing 4-5 mt and a bit of hit onto every forge for the DB we're using is pretty much the standard, so this BS about "omg aran can't hit with steel lance" needs to stop.

I didn't say Aran can't hit with a Steel Lance. I said that his accuracy is shaky with a Steel Lance. We could give +hit and +MT forges to Nolan, Sothe, and Zihark and they would improve as well.

The next fastest way, which is only *slightly* slower, is to actually use the guys like Nolan and Aran here so they get exp so they can make the rest of the game faster.

Aran being in one map doesn't make the rest of the game go any faster. Aran has to get EXP funneled into him for many maps, and then he can make the rest of the game go slightly faster. At which point, he may have made the game gone in a net direction of slower.

Edited July 15, 2009 by dondon151