OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

Actually, I think the BK should go above Giffca, maybe even Caineghis. I'll explain Giffca for now.

I hope Mekkah doesn't use this against me in our debate.

Well, the BK pops up in 1-9, and he's the only thing keeping Micaiah alive. He can take out all the enemies here in 1 shot except Jarod, who he 1-rounds anyway. It's a fair bet to say the BK has the most utility in this chapter for being invincible and keeping Micky alive.

Now, in 1-E, the BK has only 6 move, but if your units aren't promoted yet, they're at the same move as him. His 1-2 range also makes up for the low movement. He once again takes 0 damage unless it's a Venin. He has Imbue to heal that anyway.

The BK reappears in 3-6 and he's easily the best unit in this chapter. He can act as a wall of doom for the laguz while their attacks bounce off him. In all likelihood ,you were struggling to keep people alive i 3-6, and the BK gets top utility here again for being invincible.

None of these characters appear again until 4-3, where the BK stands in the middle of the sand, ready to beat the fuck out of anyone attacking. The man can't die, andcan help to weather the storm of enemy units charging.

Giffca finally appears in 4-E-1, and he's kinda impressive. His only downpoint is that he doesn't have Formshift, which is crucial for him simply because it allows an extra 5 attacks in endgame. Endgame overall counts as 2 chapters, which means an extra 5 attacks can be alot. Mages can also do considerable damage, and Giffca is locked to 1 range. This is a problem especially in 4-E-3 to 4-E-5.

[-Cynthia-]

Actually, I think the BK should go above Giffca, maybe even Caineghis. I'll explain Giffca for now.

I hope Mekkah doesn't use this against me in our debate.

Well, the BK pops up in 1-9, and he's the only thing keeping Micaiah alive. He can take out all the enemies here in 1 shot except Jarod, who he 1-rounds anyway. It's a fair bet to say the BK has the most utility in this chapter for being invincible and keeping Micky alive.

Now, in 1-E, the BK has only 6 move, but if your units aren't promoted yet, they're at the same move as him. His 1-2 range also makes up for the low movement. He once again takes 0 damage unless it's a Venin. He has Imbue to heal that anyway.

The BK reappears in 3-6 and he's easily the best unit in this chapter. He can act as a wall of doom for the laguz while their attacks bounce off him. In all likelihood ,you were struggling to keep people alive i 3-6, and the BK gets top utility here again for being invincible.

None of these characters appear again until 4-3, where the BK stands in the middle of the sand, ready to beat the fuck out of anyone attacking. The man can't die, andcan help to weather the storm of enemy units charging.

Giffca finally appears in 4-E-1, and he's kinda impressive. His only downpoint is that he doesn't have Formshift, which is crucial for him simply because it allows an extra 5 attacks in endgame. Endgame overall counts as 2 chapters, which means an extra 5 attacks can be alot. Mages can also do considerable damage, and Giffca is locked to 1 range. This is a problem especially in 4-E-3 to 4-E-5.

The BK shouldn't get any credit for 4-3 because he's an NPC unit, and the tier list only reflects playable characters. Still though, that gives him 3 chapters of being the best or at least second best. 4-E shouldn't really count for more than 2 chapters IMO, so I can definitely see BK>Cain.

I can actually see BK>Muarim as well, they both have 3 pre-Part 4 chapters of being good, except BK is better (comparing them statwise in 1-E the BK wins), and Maurim's Part 4 is not a positive in his favor.

[Jaybee]

Then Rhys needs to go above Muarim as well so that he doesn't get overtaken by the BK train

[cheetah7071]

The BK is top of top if he's tiered at all if ease of completion is part of efficiency at all.

"Ease" can be defined roughly as "saving the player restarts." Using Aran, say, would save the person some restarts in 3-6 but maybe cause some in 1-3 as they even tried to recruit him. Using Lyre will do nothing but give you more restarts, so she contributes negatively to ease.

Now, how many restarts does the BK save? Nigh infinite. Try beating 1-9 without him. Go on. Try it. It's not strictly impossible (Miccy could dodge oer and over and over again), but it's basically a luckfest. RNG abusing to give her decent speed/def/hp will help save resets in 1-9 itself, but cause more elsewhere.

So, a nigh infinite contribution to ease of completion means a nigh infinite contribution to overall utility. Thus, BK for top of top.

[dondon151]

I'm going to say again (like I said in the other topic) that the utility of an action or a chapter can never be infinite.

By your convoluted logic, we come to some ridiculous conclusions like Brom/Nephenee/Edward for extremely high positions on the tier list.

Edited July 29, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

Yeah here's how I see it:

I agree with it all. In fact, I could see Nolan dropping to Upper Mid.

Actually, I think the BK should go above Giffca, maybe even Caineghis. I'll explain Giffca for now.

The BK reappears in 3-6 and he's easily the best unit in this chapter. He can act as a wall of doom for the laguz while their attacks bounce off him. In all likelihood ,you were struggling to keep people alive i 3-6, and the BK gets top utility here again for being invincible.

None of these characters appear again until 4-3, where the BK stands in the middle of the sand, ready to beat the fuck out of anyone attacking. The man can't die, andcan help to weather the storm of enemy units charging.

Giffca finally appears in 4-E-1, and he's kinda impressive. His only downpoint is that he doesn't have Formshift, which is crucial for him simply because it allows an extra 5 attacks in endgame. Endgame overall counts as 2 chapters, which means an extra 5 attacks can be alot. Mages can also do considerable damage, and Giffca is locked to 1 range. This is a problem especially in 4-E-3 to 4-E-5.

1-9 and 1-E I give you, but not quite on 3-6. He only appears for maybe half of it, and then he has to take a turn or two just to get to enemies from there. I wouldn't call him the best in 3-6 at all. I'd say Volug, Nolan, and Jill beat him cleanly while Sothe, Aran, Zihark, Micaiah, and Laura probably beat him as well. Leo might even be considered better for how he can perform with Beastfoe.

As Cynthia said, he shouldn't get credit for 4-3. He's not a playable character there, and we tier playable characters.

"Kinda impressive" is an understatement. Try "One rounds everything on the map except maybe Generals on +Def tiles while never dying." And since 4-E-3 gives all Laguz full gauge from the start, it's actually only 4 missed attacks (but that's a comparison for him vs. Caineghis anyway). And 2 range in 4-E is overrated.

The BK is top of top if he's tiered at all if ease of completion is part of efficiency at all.

"Ease" can be defined roughly as "saving the player restarts." Using Aran, say, would save the person some restarts in 3-6 but maybe cause some in 1-3 as they even tried to recruit him. Using Lyre will do nothing but give you more restarts, so she contributes negatively to ease.

Now, how many restarts does the BK save? Nigh infinite. Try beating 1-9 without him. Go on. Try it. It's not strictly impossible (Miccy could dodge oer and over and over again), but it's basically a luckfest. RNG abusing to give her decent speed/def/hp will help save resets in 1-9 itself, but cause more elsewhere.

So, a nigh infinite contribution to ease of completion means a nigh infinite contribution to overall utility. Thus, BK for top of top.

If this logic was applied, Ike would be Top of top, not BK.

[cheetah7071]

If this logic was applied, Ike would be Top of top, not BK.

How? Using Ike says you resets, sure, but this logic still doesn't give you credit for things you're required to do, except in that training the unit beforehand makes it easier for them to do so. Plus, bae level + promo bonuses Ike doubles BK with resolve for a 3HKO with a hammer. Training Ike ahead of time doesn't really save you any restarts there. Ike deals 9 damage to Ashera at base stats+promo gains+Ragnell, so with a few dragons backing him up, it's not hard for him to deliver the finishing blow to her.

Ike simply doesn't save nearly as many resets as the BK.

Also, I'd like to see somebody actually tell me why this logic is wrong, instead of just dismissing it out of hand.

[Vykan12]

The BK has nihil so resolve won't work on him.

[Interceptor]

How exactly am I getting Resolve to activate in 4-E-2 when the BK has Nihil?

What actually happens here is that base-level Ike gets doubled, and he's ORKO'ed unless on a Cover tile, in which case he's left with 2 HP.

[Shadow Mir]

How exactly am I getting Resolve to activate in 4-E-2 when the BK has Nihil?

What actually happens here is that base-level Ike gets doubled, and he's ORKO'ed unless on a Cover tile, in which case he's left with 2 HP.

Actually, he might STILL get one-rounded due to getting criticalled.

[Interceptor]

Actually, he might STILL get one-rounded due to getting criticalled.

Good catch. Ike has over a 20% chance to die from a crit each round. Rofl.

[dondon151]

Also, I'd like to see somebody actually tell me why this logic is wrong, instead of just dismissing it out of hand.

I already told you why. I could also provide you with more examples of why this would inaccurately portray a character's utility on the tier list. Hector would be top of top because he is absolutely necessary in beating chapter 11 HHM. Ike would be top of top because he is the only playable character in the FE9 prologue.

Units aren't tiered by how many restarts they would hypothetically save. Determining the exact or ballpark amount of restarts is impossible, anyway. Units are tiered on a chapter by chapter basis with weight assigned to each chapter.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think the BK should be given infinite utility for 1-9, but it should at least count as a pretty big positive, it seems unfair to simply ignore it. For example, the BK's 1-9 should count for more than Muarim's 1-7.

@RedFox You might be underrating the BK's 3-6 performance some IMO. Haar is often considered the best unit on 2-P, this is a pretty similar situation. The BK just crushes everyone so hard statistically that he still probably beats everyone save Volug maybe.

Edited July 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

The concept of infinite utility should never even be discussed. He's a clutch unit in one chapter. He's more useful than say, Eddie is in 1-P, but not by a whole helluva lot. Moving on.

In 3-6, iirc he arrives at the end of Turn 5. You are not, repeat not, clearing this chapter sooner than Turn 12-13 or so, unless you have a ridiculous team and are taking huge risks (aka, things like exposing Zihark to multiple enemy attacks on Enemy Phase). It's not actually possible to clear this map before he arrives just due to the lack of enemy units (at map start, you only have 28 that are reasonably killable, the rest come from reinforcements or are Lethe/Mordy). He is going to see action, and he's absolutely ridiculous here due to still being unkillable.

[Florete]

@RedFox You might be underrating the BK's 3-6 performance some IMO. Haar is often considered the best unit on 2-P, this is a pretty similar situation. The BK just crushes everyone so hard statistically that he still probably beats everyone save Volug maybe.

Well, I know I never did. I always considered at least Leanne better for 2-P.

[Zkirsche]

I think Soren and Rhys are way too far apart, I even recall some arguments for him > Rhys. Let me dig those up:

Soren gets staves after promotion as well as kickass offense. His offense is not awesome when you get him, but it's not pathetic either. You just need to let him finish up others' kills until his speed gets up. Rhys, no matter how much he heals, is a liability because he not only fails to double, he sometimes gets doubled, and since he has fail avo and def, he's going to die if you don't surround him with walls. Frankly, since vulneraries heal 20 in this game, you'd probably be better off using those. Nobody has enough HP that they'd need more than that until part 4, and by then you have better healers, i.e. Micaiah, Elincia, Laura, and even Oliver.

This argument forgets about concuctions.

Does Rhys have any redeeming traits? Soren, on average, always maxes Magic, Skill, and Resistance. He has a 65% chance of maxing Speed. He also has 45.6 HP and 21.5 defense at 20/20, even without evade, so he's not dying any time soon. Rhys maxes magic as well, but his cap is 4 lower, so he'll never even be as effective a healer as Soren after promotion. Skl is lower too. Rhys does have a nice luck win, but Soren's extra speed more than makes up for the avo gap, and neither is having any trouble hitting. Rhys has less HP, Def, and Str, not that the last one matters. Being useful before promotion and after promotion>being useful before promotion and greatly outclassed afterward.

I think this explains why Rhys healing shouldn't warrant such a gap. Outside healing, Soren deals 4 more damage per attack until 3-2, where, with the help of forges, this drops to 2 or 3. This increases quickly, however, with Rhys' smaller mag cap. This increased lead only means that Soren wins offence for the rest of his time with Rhys.

Durably, Soren has a higher base def and growth, and Rhys' underlevelledness does not even this out. Even at the same level, Rhys has a 36% chance of keeping his HP loss. Rhys' only win is res, which is a superfluous lead at best.

Basically, I can't see why Soren is so low. Availability helps him beat Calill, I'd say. Though maybe Rhys needs to move down a bit. But then Mist looks too high again...

idk what to do, I'll leave that up to you guys. Now for some otehr stuff.

Any reason why Ena < Bastian? She's quite good with magic cards and blood tide is very useful, especially for Degh and Auras.

Plus, the boon skill is very useful in 4-E-1 and 4-E-5 when units are getting all kinds of status afflictions.

I don't understand why there's such a difference between Lethe and Vika because they have similar availability (When they're good anyway) and neither is spectacular compared to the team.

Edited July 29, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

I think Soren and Rhys are way too far apart, I even recall some arguments for him > Rhys. Let me dig those up:

I think the main argument for Rhys> Soren is that healing is more important than Soren's chip damage. Yeah, Soren can heal post promotion, but he won't be promoting without a Seal(other people want this), or he'll promote at like the beginning of Part 4.

Any reason why Ena < Bastian? She's quite good with magic cards and blood tide is very useful, especially for Degh and Auras.

Plus, the boon skill is very useful in 4-E-1 and 4-E-5 when units are getting all kinds of status afflictions.

Bastian has staves, and he's kinda useful in 4-5. However, Ena doesn't take up a slot while Bastian does, which is huge in 4-E, I'd go with Ena>Bastian.

I don't understand why there's such a difference between Lethe and Vika because they have similar availability (When they're good anyway) and neither is spectacular compared to the team.

Neither is spectacular, but Vika is probably at least in the upper half of the DB, Lethe isn't very good compared to Part 2 units.

[Zkirsche]

I think the main argument for Rhys> Soren is that healing is more important than Soren's chip damage. Yeah, Soren can heal post promotion, but he won't be promoting without a Seal(other people want this), or he'll promote at like the beginning of Part 4.

It got Gatrie above Ulki, why not Soren above Calill? He's arguably your best healer once promoted due to existand durability. Add this to his already-superier combat and I really do feel they should be closer.

Neither is spectacular, but Vika is probably at least in the upper half of the DB, Lethe isn't very good compared to Part 2 units.

There are more gods in part 1 (Nailah/BK/Muarim) than there are in part 1 (Elincia/Haar), plus, Lethe is beaten by less people too. I just lost a tonnes of data thanks to the glorious back button having a backspace shortcut, but if you checked yourself you should find similar results to me (Hopefully). Remember that gauge is less of a problem for Lethe because of more access to laguz stones and olivi grasses than Vika, too.

[Interceptor]

The big difference there is that Gatrie is Doritos a much better candidate for the crown than Soren is. Crowning Soren has a considerable cost associated with it, since I wouldn't say that he's even as good a candidate as Titania, who is already pretty "meh" in the grand scheme of things. Crowning Soren also makes his durabiltiy issues even worse than they were before: sure he can get an HP boost and liek 16 levels worth of DEF, but his LCK is going to be something atrocious like 13 and stuck there for a while. That's so bad that units with innate crit (SMs, Halbs) can actually have listed crit values on him, which is pretty scary since a crit = dead. What you are getting out of Soren's crown is pretty lame, imo.

[-Cynthia-]

It got Gatrie above Ulki, why not Soren above Calill? He's arguably your best healer once promoted due to existand durability. Add this to his already-superier combat and I really do feel they should be closer.

I could see Soren>Calill. She does have the better growths and class, but Soren is going to have quite a level lead on her once 3-11 rolls around.

There are more gods in part 1 (Nailah/BK/Muarim) than there are in part 1 (Elincia/Haar), plus, Lethe is beaten by less people too. I just lost a tonnes of data thanks to the glorious back button having a backspace shortcut, but if you checked yourself you should find similar results to me (Hopefully). Remember that gauge is less of a problem for Lethe because of more access to laguz stones and olivi grasses than Vika, too.

Yeah, I've had that happen before :( Anyway, I guess I can see your point, are you looking to move Vika down or Lethe up?

[Zkirsche]

Yeah, I've had that happen before :( Anyway, I guess I can see your point, are you looking to move Vika down or Lethe up?

A bit of both really. I mean, is Vika's 2.5 chapters of usefulness in part 1 outweigh Ena's usefulness in 4-E? It's quite debateable as blood tide is very good as is Ena with magic cards.

I'm also of the opinion that Pelleas < Lethe, and I can't see why Oliver is superier to her either.

The big difference there is that Gatrie is Doritos a much better candidate for the crown than Soren is. Crowning Soren has a considerable cost associated with it, since I wouldn't say that he's even as good a candidate as Titania, who is already pretty "meh" in the grand scheme of things. Crowning Soren also makes his durabiltiy issues even worse than they were before: sure he can get an HP boost and liek 16 levels worth of DEF, but his LCK is going to be something atrocious like 13 and stuck there for a while. That's so bad that units with innate crit (SMs, Halbs) can actually have listed crit values on him, which is pretty scary since a crit = dead. What you are getting out of Soren's crown is pretty lame, imo.

What? Luck only stops increasing once it's capped.

Yes Soren becomes worse long-term. But the short term benefits are very useful. Besides, you could wait until 3-7 for a crown so the cost is less. Eitehr way, teh short-term benefit easily makes him better than Calill, especially as I wouldn't use him in the long term anyway.

Edited July 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Narga_Rocks]

It got Gatrie above Ulki, why not Soren above Calill? He's arguably your best healer once promoted due to existand durability. Add this to his already-superier combat and I really do feel they should be closer.

I don't know. The whole point of Gatrie > Ulki is the 3-3 crown. I suppose you could have Heather take the 3-6 crown and give it to Soren, or Soren grab the 3-11 crown. There's competition but you could have 3 extra crowns by 3-11 on top of the one Gatrie already took. Haar, Oscar, Soren could be a good argument for the crowns, but by that time you might have other --/18 units that might benefit equally from the crowns. Also don't forget, by this point in time you have physics (steal the one in 3-10 and 3-11, Elincia's if you didn't bring it to 3-2 with Neph/Brom/Heather/Haar). Soren will take a while to get to C even with the crown and discipline, and you still need money in part 3 for stuff (forges, mostly) so we can't buy arms scrolls during part 3. So even when you crown Soren, he's looking at not having physic access for a while so Rhys wins for even longer. He's not tying until he's into part 4 anyway since he can't use an awesome item that Rhys can.

And if you did bring Elincia's physic to 3-2, then Rhys's healing is even better for the first half of part 3 than it is without, since Rhys doesn't care where he stands anymore. And since Mist should be using mends for a while, Rhys doesn't face too much competition for that physic. And there's still the 2 more physic staffs that you can start using in 3-11 and 3-E. I say that because the ones stolen in 3-10 and 3-11 are from bishops near the end of each chapter.

Well, that's mostly about your last sentence referencing that Rhys and Soren should be closer, since Soren is already just one down from Calill so I'm assuming you weren't saying they should be closer.

Now, I know that you are also saying Soren above Calill, but if you are using his early healing ability, there are better options until Soren pulls C staves anyway. Plus if you early crown him he's never doubling anything, rather than almost never doubling. At least Calill can be saved from that fate with a bit of paragon, Soren can't. Much easier for her to reach doubling speed than Soren, even with the availability difference.

And she'll double spirits without Nasir and with Nasir should ORKO just like a 29 speed Soren would with Nasir. She just needs 32 magic with Nasir to ORKO all the spirits that aren't on wardwood. (Needs 51 mt, and 32 + 14 + 5 = 51). Heck, she just needs 30 magic and 26 speed and Rexflame equipped and an A support for ORKOing if her support partner is in range. That's 20/8, no problem even without paragon. So they are basically even against spirits, since with Nasir ORKOing is simple, and without Nasir she doubles and he doesn't, as long as she has 31 speed (20/9). Then there are the auras, where she's better against the corner auras since she doubles w/ Nasir. The other chapters she also has better doubling, unless Soren is 20/15 for 4-E-1 and his cap is too low for 4-E-2 anyway. Calill only needs 20/7 for Rexflame to double warriors, and since most of her action will be player phase anyway, she likely isn't breaking the thing since you won't need her to double every turn anyway.

Edit:

@Int. For 3-4, Soren is less than Junior Mints. For 3-7 and beyond, I think a lot of people are around Caramilk, and Soren might now be Junior Mints. Doritos already has a crown at this point.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

A bit of both really. I mean, is Vika's 2.5 chapters of usefulness in part 1 outweigh Ena's usefulness in 4-E? It's quite debateable as blood tide is very good as is Ena with magic cards.

I definitely don't see how Vika> Danved. Danved, like Vika, is marginally useful for a few chapters, but we can sort of fix Danved's Part 4, Vika is just so laughably far behind it's pathetic.

I'm also of the opinion that Pelleas < Lethe, and I can't see why Oliver is superier to her either.

Staves I guess.

[Narga_Rocks]

The big difference there is that Gatrie is Doritos a much better candidate for the crown than Soren is. Crowning Soren has a considerable cost associated with it, since I wouldn't say that he's even as good a candidate as Titania, who is already pretty "meh" in the grand scheme of things. Crowning Soren also makes his durabiltiy issues even worse than they were before: sure he can get an HP boost and liek 16 levels worth of DEF, but his LCK is going to be something atrocious like 13 and stuck there for a while. That's so bad that units with innate crit (SMs, Halbs) can actually have listed crit values on him, which is pretty scary since a crit = dead. What you are getting out of Soren's crown is pretty lame, imo.

And as for Soren's luck, yeah, durability is irrelevant when even part 3 halb's have a crit rate on you. Since he isn't getting to 4HKO from the crown, he has something Mist doesn't have, a chance of causing a reset from a single enemy. In fact, anything that doesn't ORKO Rhys also isn't a big worry for him either, what with his massive lck. Mist and Rhys have more controllable/predictable set backs. We can make sure that Mist/Rhys aren't attacked by enough enemies to kill them. The only way we can do that for Soren is to have him not get attacked.

What? Luck only stops increasing once it's capped.

Yes Soren becomes worse long-term. But the short term benefits are very useful. Besides, you could wait until 3-7 for a crown so the cost is less. Eitehr way, teh short-term benefit easily makes him better than Calill, especially as I wouldn't use him in the long term anyway.

Soren's lck doesn't stop increasing, it just goes up rather slowly given how he's now tier 3. He can still pull 12 exp from mend, but with a 35% luck growth it takes 3 chapters to increase cev by 1 point assuming 8 mends per chapter, and of course any time he tries to use his "already-superier combat" it's going to mean less exp than he'd have gotten by healing. Enemy crit is 15 or 16 for halbs, and obviously more for Snipers/Swordmasters. Soren needs 15 level ups to get enough luck to not be critted by halbs, forget SMs/Snipers. So since he starts at level --/5, he's looking at say --/15/6 before he isn't looking at being critblicked by halbs, and he is never getting to that stage against swordmasters and snipers. Then comes part 4 where halbs get the tier 3 bonuses. The HM enemy stats data has the wrong crit rates for halbs/snipers/warriors/swordmasters since it uses the tier 2 bonuses when they get the tier 3 crit bonuses. So in part 4 he's facing 22 crit from halbs and 17 from warriors. So maybe he's going to pull off being safe from warriors, but he needs --/20/18 to not face being critblicked by halbs, and will never get there for swordmasters/snipers. So his durability means jack if he doesn't have fortune. Considering most people seem to sell Meg's and we don't get another until Cain's, his durability lead needs to be carefully controlled anyway, since we can't let him actually face stuff. Mist only fears swordmasters, and only really at the beginning of part 3 and during part 4. Aside from that, she just fears killer weapons and wo daos.

[grandjackal]

SPEAKING of Bastian, was Bastian vs. Danved ever concluded?

Bastian's overall weapon ranks (fire for them laagooz, wind for fliers, thunder for the dragons, able to snipe with any of them) and vague usefulness in part 4 in the form of staffs>Being a rather meh unit in part 2 and sucking royally afterwards.

Not even a real point in training him. He's like what, our worst Wishblade unit? He's Aran without the defense...Or the offense. Or friends.