Volug

[dondon151]

Don't forget Nailah and Burger King. The whole point of this thread has been to degrade his importance in 3-6 and 3-12.

That's what I mean by your two broken dudes. I think my syntax made it confusing.

Muarim has huge move so he can start attacking immediately. He contributes by making the chapter go faster.

Who is he attacking? All of the ledges are blocked except for the one that your main group has already cleared.

There are different reasons for that though. They can fly, they HAVE LAGUZ STONES, they have Canto, they gain good exp in all their chapters COMPARED to Volug. Volug has none of those, the latter in Part 3 is good, but not as good as others.

But Ulki/Janaff still need to sacrifice player phases for Olivi Grass (which there's more competition for) and they don't gain good exp in their chapters.

He fails in part 4 though, because of shit growths and stuff. The whole first post explains this.

We've argued that those growths indeed aren't shit.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[CGV]

To avoid murdering the tier list thread..

- No forge, beorc weapons, etc.

- Transformation issues at Part 3 and above.

- Levels up as slow as hell, so he fails later on.

- Weak to fire.

- Lack of 2 range.

- Taking EXP from a team lacking with EXP.

- Garbage growths.

Thank you for describing all Cat, Tiger, Lion and Wolf laguz. As for the other two:

The taking EXP bullshit isn't a logical argument. Everyone but you knows that. Hell, Sothe can do that if you abuse him. So can Nolan, and so can Edward. Hell, even Leonardo can do it if you abuse him

Laguz have good HP and Luck growths so their others aren't the greatest

This fail topic is fail...

[Seph]

Who is he attacking? All of the ledges are blocked except for the one that your main group has already cleared.

Muarim has huge move, why can't he climb the ledges?

But Ulki/Janaff still need to sacrifice player phases for Olivi Grass (which there's more competition for) and they don't gain good exp in their chapters.

Laguz Stones. A single turn instead of taking 2 turns from 0.

I said compared to Volug in caps lock even, if you consider Part 1.

We've argued that those growths indeed aren't shit.

HP: 95%

Str: 25%

Mag: 15%

Skl: 35%

Spd: 40%

Luck: 90%

Def: 15%

Res: 10%

That is.. incredible fail.

Thank you for describing all Cat, Tiger, Lion and Wolf laguz. As for the other two:

Laguz all fail, except for Formshifts.

The taking EXP bullshit isn't a logical argument. Everyone but you knows that. Hell, Sothe can do that if you abuse him. So can Nolan, and so can Edward. Hell, even Leonardo can do it if you abuse him

The entire point here was Volug is just so useless after Part 1, that he's thieving it all. That's all.

The others you mentioned, are not.

Laguz have good HP and Luck growths so their others aren't the greatest

You're helping me.

This fail topic is fail...

You back this up with terrible points.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

Giving EXP to units who gain less isn't valid, but it provides an opportunity cost. Obviously you're not dumping all your EXP into Volug because TOO MUCH makes your units suffer... but we're not even insinuating that you should give Volug a lot of kills (he can't really kill anyway, but he at least doubles consistently) so yeah.

I wouldn't quit dub this a fail topic, but oh well.

Muarim has huge move, why can't he climb the ledges?

The one being blocked by the Archer? Literally blocked.

That is.. incredible fail.

Three of them increase every turn (on average) while on the other hand, every single non HP or Luck counts for two in his true offensive state. Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

Thank you for describing all Cat, Tiger, Lion and Wolf laguz. As for the other two:

Being a certain class is not an excuse for having a detriment. Being a magic unit does not absolve you from having terrible physical durability, being an armored unit does not absolve you from having bad speed, and being a pegasus unit does not absolve you from being murdered by bows.

[Seph]

The one being blocked by the Archer? Literally blocked.

You have to rush and clear the units in that chapter fast.

Three of them increase every turn (on average) while on the other hand, every single non HP or Luck counts for two in his true offensive state.

I've already proved you wrong on this, please don't repeat it again.

[CGV]

This is almost as pointless as Lyle's argument that Sothe is worse than Volke. You're being blinded by bias. Just get a touch with reality and see that Volug doesn't suck. Do we ALL have to debate our asses off just to show you that you're full of shit?

[Florete]

it was sufficiently countered by saying that Sothe doesn't take more EXP away from the team than, say, Nolan.

so once again, I post this for those who haven't read it already. Substitute Seth for Sothe, and any Sacred Stones unit for a Dawn Brigade member, and it still works out.

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

I'll have my own argument when needed. Anything I would say is already being covered.

[Seph]

Mekkah made this point to me in the tier list thread.

And he didn't reply back.

I'll have my own argument when needed. Anything I would say is already being covered.

And well, those debates are pretty much over.

Also Fox, Volug NEEDS exp but he is getting VERY LITTLE of it. That's different from Seth, Titania, etc.

This is almost as pointless as Lyle's argument that Sothe is worse than Volke. You're being blinded by bias. Just get a touch with reality and see that Volug doesn't suck. Do we ALL have to debate our asses off just to show you that you're full of shit?

Blinded by bias? That goes for you. Many people tried to debate with me, and they didn't say any of this. You're the only one with this thought here.

You're ignorant. I never said Volug sucks. I said he's overrated. Can you read?

"Volug, And why he is overrated"

You're contributing only your ignorance to this thread, which no one else has. And you're not even backing yourself up.

And people here are debating.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

PROTIP: Seth and Titania are getting very little EXP too.

I've already proved you wrong on this, please don't repeat it again.

Where? Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

Muarim has huge move, why can't he climb the ledges?

Turn 3, he's either being recruited or has to climb a ledge. Turn 4 or 5, he's actually killing something. This isn't a very relevant tangent anyway >.>

Laguz Stones. A single turn instead of taking 2 turns from 0.

2 -> 1, great.

I said compared to Volug in caps lock even, if you consider Part 1.

HP: 95%

Str: 25%

Mag: 15%

Skl: 35%

Spd: 40%

Luck: 90%

Def: 15%

Res: 10%

That is.. incredible fail.

Laguz all fail, except for Formshifts.

Try doubling your relevant battle stats. Laguz all failing seems to be a prevalent misconception in this game; the only laguz that are terrible are cats due to fast depleting transformation gauges. I don't quite see how you've proved Nathan Graves wrong, either. By using half-assed statistics and probability? You know, Volug can get +8 on a level up as well, which translates to +14 in transformed stats. But I'm not going to argue this, because Volug gets +3.25 on level up on average. You're implying that he gets like... 2.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

Mekkah made this point to me in the tier list thread.

And he didn't reply back.

And well, those debates are pretty much over.

Also Fox, Volug NEEDS exp but he is getting VERY LITTLE of it. That's different from Seth, Titania, etc.

What was there to reply back on?

Every unit that hasn't hit level cap "needs" experience. Seth and Titania both gain very little experience also. If you don't realize that, pick up those games and actually use those two.

[Seph]

What was there to reply back on?

Every unit that hasn't hit level cap "needs" experience. Seth and Titania both gain very little experience also. If you don't realize that, pick up those games and actually use those two.

Volug has problems which they don't have. Volug is a sub-human. Volug is different from them.

- No forge, beorc weapons, etc.

- Transformation issues at Part 3 and above.

- Levels up as slow as hell, so he fails later on.

- Weak to fire.

- Lack of 2 range.

- Taking EXP from a team lacking with EXP.

- Garbage growths.

Does Titania have these?

[dondon151]

They... fit into the same archetype? How could you possibly argue that? And Titania does have couple of those.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Leveling up slow as hell and "taking" EXP. Which is what the point concerns.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

They... fit into the same archetype? How could you possibly argue that?

Sothe is in that archetype. Volug is far different from the others.

By the way, I am not saying Volug should not be used. HE SHOULD be used. But later on, if you use him too much, it becomes a negative for your team since he's too useless later on. This is why he's overrated.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

Sothe is in that archetype. Volug is far different from the others.

Leveling up slow as hell and "taking" EXP. Which is what the point concerns.

hmm... yes...

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Seph]

hmm... yes...

Oh, that archetype? I was thinking Jeigan. In that case, okay.

The disadvantages of them are the same. If you use them too much earlygame, then your efficiency will be decreased later on.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

By the way, I am not saying Volug should not be used. HE SHOULD be used. But later on, if you use him too much, it becomes a negative for your team since he's too useless later on.

I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. His position on the tier list reflects your sentiments. He plays much of the same role as Sothe, and he's lower than him on the tier list.

[Seph]

I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. His position on the tier list reflects your sentiments. He plays much of the same role as Sothe, and he's lower than him on the tier list.

Sothe is a thief.

[Lord Raven]

Thief and protector guy. He's your best unit until Volug joins.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

Stop being so goddamn nitpicky. You know what I mean. Sothe spends more of his time being an earlygame prepromote than a thief.

[Seph]

Stop being so goddamn nitpicky. You know what I mean. Sothe spends more of his time being an earlygame prepromote than a thief.

Sothe is very useful for the chests, though, and he can Steal.

And he has an auto A support with Micaiah, which she loves.

[Mekkah]

long topic is tl;dr

Mekkah made this point to me in the tier list thread.

And he didn't reply back.

Well, post whatever rebuttal you had in this topic then, since I'm not going to derail any other thread.

Also Fox, Volug NEEDS exp but he is getting VERY LITTLE of it.

EXP has no value of itself. How the hell do you conclude that he "needs EXP"? Sure, he could use more, but that goes for everyone. What Volug really needs is just upping his Strike level.

- Levels up as slow as hell, so he fails later on.

lolfalse. Leveling up slow is not a cause of failing later on. If he does, it's because of his average stats.

- Taking EXP from a team lacking with EXP.

So is _everyone else_ in the Dawn Brigade except moreso. Anyway, read my rant about "EXP hogging" and such above and form some kind or reply that isn't resorting to pointing to other stuff.

- Garbage growths.

And he has better bases than everyone, and his growths for most of his stats are effectively double, so lol. Anyway, FE6 Karel has the best growths while FE7 Pent has the worst, but it doesn't matter crap. What matters are averages.

1-7: He starts meeting enemies he can't double here

And who is doubling those again? Zihark and Sothe?

The rest of this paragraph is you repeating not one but five times that "Volug is not good".

1-8 is basically you saying "Volug is not good anymore and you have little time" 1289 times.

1-F isn't saying anything about Volug in particular either.

After that, he has Olivi Grass. While he has to use it on player phase, you forget that he still gets to rape stuff on enemy phase, and your team has quite a lot of trouble taking hits from Laguz in 3-6 anyway.

Ugh, I can't even stand quoting the rest. It's you repeating the same shit over and over again.

For supports:

Nolan: Generally supported with Eddie or Zihark, not with Volug.

Eddie sucks, so he's likely not getting used. 2-rounded by everything ever ftw.

Either way, I see no reason why Nolan would take Zihark over Volug, as Volug joins slightly earlier, and there's no such thing as support speed, and the affinities are the same. As long as you are perm-using an even number of Pawn Brigade units, Volug is getting a support, and even you're not, he has priority since he gives sexy Earth bonuses.

[Lord Raven]

Sothe is very useful for the chests, though, and he can Steal.

And he can kill and take hits a lot better than your early units.