Volug

[CGV]

Blinded by bias? That goes for you. Many people tried to debate with me, and they didn't say any of this. You're the only one with this thought here.

You're ignorant. I never said Volug sucks. I said he's overrated. Can you read?

"Volug, And why he is overrated"

You're contributing only your ignorance to this thread, which no one else has. And you're not even backing yourself up.

And people here are debating

Ah yes, my mistake. I had in my head the whole "sothe and volke" thing and there was a lot of "suck"ing so that's where my brain went (no pun intended). Btw, yes I can read :D

Besides, you got like 5 or 6 people against you. No need for me to whip out any other stuff or "back myself up" because everyone else is doing that for me

[Seph]

Well, post whatever rebuttal you had in this topic then, since I'm not going to derail any other thread.

My rebuttals are here.

EXP has no value of itself. How the hell do you conclude that he "needs EXP"? Sure, he could use more, but that goes for everyone. What Volug really needs is just upping his Strike level.

Part 4. He can't even double the generals.

lolfalse. Leveling up slow is not a cause of failing later on. If he does, it's because of his average stats.

Yes it is (later on). He's gaining less exp, so he's gaining less stats, so he's killing and hurting less, so he's less efficient. What is there to disagree here?

So is _everyone else_ in the Dawn Brigade except moreso. Anyway, read my rant about "EXP hogging" and such above and form some kind or reply that isn't resorting to pointing to other stuff.

By the way, I am not saying Volug should not be used. HE SHOULD be used. But later on, if you use him too much, it becomes a negative for your team since he's too useless later on. This is why he's overrated.

And he has better bases than everyone, and his growths for most of his stats are effectively double, so lol. Anyway, FE6 Karel has the best growths while FE7 Pent has the worst, but it doesn't matter crap. What matters are averages.

Yeah, let's look at the averages. You yourself claimed that he had average stats.

http://serenesforest.net/fe10/average/volug.html

They are really poor. He needs like 5 level ups to even start doubling Generals. And his defence growth.. epic fail.

And laguz can't take advantage of strength the way beorc can, because they're stuck with strike weapons.

And who is doubling those again? Zihark and Sothe?

The rest of this paragraph is you repeating not one but five times that "Volug is not good".

1-8 is basically you saying "Volug is not good anymore and you have little time" 1289 times.

1-F isn't saying anything about Volug in particular either.

After that, he has Olivi Grass. While he has to use it on player phase, you forget that he still gets to rape stuff on enemy phase, and your team has quite a lot of trouble taking hits from Laguz in 3-6 anyway.

Ugh, I can't even stand quoting the rest. It's you repeating the same shit over and over again.

First of all, you didn't even PLAY the game. You can't actually comment on this. Mere theories are not enough.

Heck, you didn't even deny this. You merely ranted about what I wrote.

Olivi Grass is awful. The first two turns are wasted, and only then can he transform. He's not raping stuff exactly. He's still taking significant damage from cats and tigers, because of shit def. Actually he's as good as your other units.

Zihark and Nolan have little problems with laguz on chapter 3-6. It's Micaiah, Sothe and Jill which do, and Volug is only useful at turn 3. Then the Burger King comes.

Eddie sucks, so he's likely not getting used. 2-rounded by everything ever ftw.

Either way, I see no reason why Nolan would take Zihark over Volug, as Volug joins slightly earlier, and there's no such thing as support speed, and the affinities are the same. As long as you are perm-using an even number of Pawn Brigade units, Volug is getting a support, and even you're not, he has priority since he gives sexy Earth bonuses.

I made an explanation for every character, so it's only fair.

Hahahaha.. okay, first off, no one disagreed with me here, in the previous thread. Nolan and Zihark are always supported together. They are useful for the whole game, unlike Volug. Ask anyone you want about this.

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

Part 4. He can't even double the generals.

Not on base level.

Yes it is (later on). He's gaining less exp, so he's gaining less stats, so he's killing and hurting less, so he's less efficient. What is there to disagree here?

But his stats are already high.

Yeah, let's look at the averages. You yourself claimed that he had average stats.

Lets look at the real averages instead of the simple averages.

http://www.feplanet.net/games-10-characters-averages/10

I must brag though, I taught BaS how to do this... and my excel sheets almost became HTMLized to become these. :3

Anyways, note how when you click a stat, you see a % chance of getting each stat. :3

And laguz can't take advantage of strength the way beorc can, because they're stuck with strike weapons.

Which get stronger. SS Strike is as strong as a Silver Heavy (Poleaxe/Blade/Greatlance) weapon whereas S strike is as strong as a Steel heavy weapon. Your units are incredibly likely to use Steel Heavy weapons (a lot lower price for still a lot of power, more hit [which God knows the some members of the Brigade need], especially considering you do have an army to support) so he's still around their power.

This merely makes him less flexible since everyone else can use ranged stuff. Of course he has stuff like Howl and Quickclaw, but I do admit that it's incredibly situational.

First of all, you didn't even PLAY the game. You can't actually comment on this. Other people had no problems with what you said here, so it really shows.

He has every right to comment. There are many playthrough videos on youtube so he knows the general idea of what's going on, as well as the statistics behind the game. And even regardless, he's really damn smart; you have to be if you're an admin at smogon.

Olivi Grass is awful. The first two turns are wasted, and only then can he transform.

Then from the next couple turns he's beating the rest of your units on the enemy phase and occasionally on the player phase. Your units can handle at best two attacks on the enemy phase (being lenient here, by the way!) whereas Volug can handle many, many more.

Zihark and Nolan have little problems with laguz on chapter 3-6. It's Micaiah, Sothe and Jill which do, and Volug is only useful at turn 3. Then the Burger King comes.

They do have problems. Zihark gets easily 2 or 3HKO'd by Tigers and Nolan can't take that many hits from Tigers without healing. The Tigers are cunts, and Volug can handle them better than Nolan can.

Hahahaha.. okay, first off, no one disagreed with me here, in the previous thread. Nolan and Zihark are always supported together. They are useful for the whole game, unlike Volug. Ask anyone you want about this.

Not when they're really underleveled in Part IV, like Volug is likely to be anyway. Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

Not on base level.

Like I said, he needs 5 levels to even double them.

But his stats are already high.

I said later on. He's not.

Lets look at the real averages instead of the simple averages.

There is almost no difference. You accomplished nothing.

Which get stronger. SS Strike is as strong as a Silver Heavy (Poleaxe/Blade/Greatlance) weapon whereas S strike is as strong as a Steel heavy weapon. Your units are incredibly likely to use Steel Heavy weapons (a lot lower price for more durability and still a lot of power) so he's still around their power.

This merely makes him less flexible since everyone else can use ranged stuff. Of course he has stuff like Howl and Quickclaw, but I do admit that it's incredibly situational.

Your units are incredibly likely to use forged weapons. Volug's stats are too average, though. Look at Nolan and Zihark, third tier. Volug will only be getting SS at Part 4, when Nolan and Zihark are third tier.

Yeah.

He has every right to comment. There are many playthrough videos on youtube so he knows the general idea of what's going on, as well as the statistics behind the game. And even regardless, he's really damn smart; you have to be if you're an admin at smogon.

First off, I've been on Smogon for a few years. I know everything that goes on there. Way too many people have auth there as it is.

You still need gaming experience.

And no you don't. Having authority requires some amount of intelligence, but not really damn smart. It requires competence, respect from users, amount of service done and contributions, etc. I am not insulting his intelligence. Mekkah has been one of the really old members of Smogon, and he definitely deserved it more than the others. Heck, his auth was maybe even too late.

Then from the next couple turns he's beating the rest of your units on the enemy phase and occasionally on the player phase. Your units can handle at best two attacks on the enemy phase (being lenient here, by the way!) whereas Volug can handle many, many more.

Nope. Nolan and Zihark are taking an incredible amount of attacks and they can both one round with a Crossbow/Beastfoe and Adept (risky but the chance is significant).

Volug has crap def. That's 2 hits from tigers and a hit from a cat.

They do have problems. Zihark gets easily 2 or 3HKO'd by Tigers and Nolan can't take that many hits from Tigers without healing. The Tigers are cunts, and Volug can handle them better than Nolan can.

A-B support.

Not when they're really underleveled in Part IV, like Volug is likely to be anyway.

Nolan and Zihark's supports make up for the underleveled-ness. And almost your whole team is underleveled.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

Like I said, he needs 5 levels to even double them.

He's perfectly able to get that whether or not that is the case. Laguz give a lot of EXP.

I said later on. He's not.

He's not what? I don't get it.

There is almost no difference. You accomplished nothing.

Probabilities :3

Your units are incredibly likely to use forged weapons. Volug's stats are too average, though. Look at Nolan and Zihark, third tier. Volug will only be getting SS at Part 4, when Nolan and Zihark are third tier.

Nolan and Zihark are third tier by the very end of Part IV. Volug will be getting SS way before they get third tier.

You still need gaming experience.

I guess knowing what FE is like and seeing the game in action (maps and such) is a way to get gaming experience in Fire Emblem. Especially since you have the stats in a click.

And whether or not he's played the game is wrong; refute his points if they're wrong regardless of who the person is. It's a bit contradictory to be saying this but Mekkah is pretty unlikely to bullshit around regardless.

Volug has crap def. That's 2 hits from tigers and a hit from a cat.

HP is underrated, IMO.

Nolan and Zihark's supports make up for the underleveled-ness. And almost your whole team is underleveled.

Why are Nolan and Zihark entitled to one another's supports over Volug again? Maybe then Volug can survive given the same circumstances as Nolan and Zihark. And a lot better because he's prepared for hits when he needs to take them and can survive untransformed (and get a lot of EXP even without kills). I find that Resolve can be better on him because it lets him get more EXP from striking enemies when they attack him... and he makes better use of it because of superior transformed stats.

Volug's enemy phase >>> Zihark and Nolan's at any rate. Even if his player phase is inferior.

[dondon151]

They are really poor. He needs like 5 level ups to even start doubling Generals. And his defence growth.. epic fail.

And laguz can't take advantage of strength the way beorc can, because they're stuck with strike weapons.

5 level ups isn't very tough. Volug has a pretty low join level, compared to other laguz. He'll get EXP in part 3.

Olivi Grass is awful. The first two turns are wasted, and only then can he transform. He's not raping stuff exactly. He's still taking significant damage from cats and tigers, because of shit def. Actually he's as good as your other units.

He's better than your other units. Look below.

Hahahaha.. okay, first off, no one disagreed with me here, in the previous thread. Nolan and Zihark are always supported together. They are useful for the whole game, unlike Volug. Ask anyone you want about this.

I believe I disagreed.

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

Using a character's position on the tier list to argue his position on the tier list makes no sense. "Nolan and Zihark are more useful because they're higher on the tier list." What? Nolan is only 2 positions above Volug, and Zihark isn't even that much higher up.

I posted this in the tier list topic:

From part 3 on, assuming that Volug is still at base level with A strike and no supports, he has:

49 HP, 31 MT, 26 AS, 151 Hit, 65 Avo, 18 Def and 10 Res.

Nolan doesn't match Volug's concrete physical durability until 20/13, and he still falls short on HP by 4.2 points. Magical durability doesn't matter because part 3 has no magic users. He also doesn't match Volug's AS until 20/17 and MT (with a Steel Axe) until 20/6.

Zihark's Avo doesn't match Volug's Avo until about --/7 or --/8. Both have earth affinity as well. Why does Zihark get A Nolan over Volug? And even though Zihark ties Volug in AS at around --/7, he still needs 11 more levels to reach 31 MT with a Steel Sword. Zihark's concrete physical durability doesn't even catch up until third tier.

Sothe... is about the same as Zihark, minus earth affinity and plus auto A with Micaiah.

Jill's AS is hindered by her second tier stat caps, and she's not matching Volug's MT until 20/11 (assuming Steel Axe again). She beats Volug in Def starting at around 20/4, but still loses massively in HP, so her physical durability needs a few more levels to catch up.

I could go on, but these are arguably the best units in the DB (minus Tauroneo, who can't be used in 3-6). Volug slaughters all of them at base level in raw stats, his only shortcomings being dependent on Olivi Grass during player phases (you get 3-4 of them with 8 uses each), weak to fire (not important for part 3), and not being able to use killer or effective weapons (the latter isn't important).

Simply put, Nolan/Zihark/Jill/Sothe need a lot more than 5 levels to do comparable damage to part 4 enemies. In 3-6, where most of your units are just going into second tier, Volug beats all of them. In 3-12, let's assume around 20/5 for units like Nolan and --/8 for prepromotes like Zihark. Volug still beats all of them at base level. And he may not even be at base level.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Oh yeah, he has 26 base speed (19 or 20 with Wildheart in Part I, in which case only Zihark and Sothe are beating him here)) and your dawn brigade units don't even hit that attack speed until Part IV anyway. Unless it's Zihark.

[Seph]

He's perfectly able to get that whether or not that is the case. Laguz give a lot of EXP.

5 level ups isn't very tough. Volug has a pretty low join level, compared to other laguz. He'll get EXP in part 3.

He's using a lot of exp for little gain, his stats are only average. That's inefficiency. Look at gods like Nolan and Zihark. Surely you want to train them instead.

Doubling the generals isn't even enough.

He's not what? I don't get it.

Part 4 and the final two chapters of Part 3 for Micaiah, his stats are just average.

Nolan and Zihark are third tier by the very end of Part IV. Volug will be getting SS way before they get third tier.

Very end? If you trained no one but Nolan, Zihark, Micaiah and Sothe, it is very likely that Nolan and Zihark will be third tier during the first chapter. With Jill, that should be at the final chapter.

And this is wrong. And SS is useful and all, but his other stats are just way too poor.

I guess knowing what FE is like and seeing the game in action (maps and such) is a way to get gaming experience in Fire Emblem. Especially since you have the stats in a click.

You have to play the game yourself, see the AI yourself, that's what counts.

And whether or not he's played the game is wrong; refute his points if they're wrong regardless of who the person is. It's a bit contradictory to be saying this but Mekkah is pretty unlikely to bullshit around regardless.

I'm doing that.

HP is underrated, IMO.

Tigers do massive damage. What is your point?

Why are Nolan and Zihark entitled to one another's supports over Volug again? Maybe then Volug can survive given the same circumstances as Nolan and Zihark. And a lot better because he's prepared for hits when he needs to take them and can survive untransformed (and get a lot of EXP even without kills). I find that Resolve can be better on him because it lets him get more EXP from striking enemies when they attack him... and he makes better use of it because of superior transformed stats.

Volug's enemy phase >>> Zihark and Nolan's at any rate. Even if his player phase is inferior.

This is massive bullshit.

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

And also Zihark and Nolan's A-B support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Volug's enemy phase.

Using a character's position on the tier list to argue his position on the tier list makes no sense. "Nolan and Zihark are more useful because they're higher on the tier list." What? Nolan is only 2 positions above Volug, and Zihark isn't even that much higher up.

I addressed the reasons why Nolan and Zihark were so high up.

Why the heck not? Volug is generally ditched after Part 3 because he's only as good as your other units and that's when he only has to use Olivi Grass. So Zihark and Nolan are preferred.

Simply put, Nolan/Zihark/Jill/Sothe need a lot more than 5 levels to do comparable damage to part 4 enemies. In 3-6, where most of your units are just going into second tier, Volug beats all of them. In 3-12, let's assume around 20/5 for units like Nolan and --/8 for prepromotes like Zihark. Volug still beats all of them at base level. And he may not even be at base level.

They will have a much easier time gaining levels, and they should be gaining levels. Volug is just way too inefficient for Part 4.

And by the way at 3-12 Nolan and Zihark will have an A support.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

His stats are only average.

You said this three times in your post, and I've shown why his stats are not average.

Very end? If you trained no one but Nolan, Zihark, Micaiah and Sothe, it is very likely that Nolan and Zihark will be third tier during the first chapter. With Jill, that should be at the final chapter.

Training 4 people is sort of favoritism and promotes inefficiency in earlier chapters.

And also Zihark and Nolan's A-B support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Volug's enemy phase.

Volug gets an A/B with Zihark. Now he's better than Nolan.

Volug gets an A/B with Nolan. Now he's better than Zihark.

Why the heck not? Volug is generally ditched after Part 3 because he's only as good as your other units and that's when he only has to use Olivi Grass. So Zihark and Nolan are preferred.

They will have a much easier time gaining levels, and they should be gaining levels. Volug is just way too inefficient for Part 4.

No. This is not a fair assumption. You're saying that Volug is not good because you're assuming that he's not being used in part 4. NolanxZihark A is also not a fair assumption because Volug performs better than both of them when supports are building, and thus is also entitled to an A with another earth affinity unit.

By the way, thanks for ignoring the side-by-side comparisons that outright show how Volug is outperforming the DB beorcs.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

He's using a lot of exp for little gain, his stats are only average. That's inefficiency. Look at gods like Nolan and Zihark. Surely you want to train them instead.

That doesn't matter. For about 60 or 70 percent of Nolan/Zihark's availability, he's doing better than them without training or EXP. Using him is more efficient than using units that require help to use.

Part 4 and the final two chapters of Part 3 for Micaiah, his stats are just average.

Average implies that he's just as good as everyone else. This is false.

Very end? If you trained no one but Nolan, Zihark, Micaiah and Sothe, it is very likely that Nolan and Zihark will be third tier during the first chapter. With Jill, that should be at the final chapter.

What? Have you forgotten how much EXP there is in HM? You gain like half as much as you do in NM with the more enemies not even making up for it fully. 20/10 is seems right for the first chapter, and at best 20/20/1 seems right after the fifth chapter of Part IV. If not a LITTLE higher, but Volug's bound to still be on par with the units at this point.

And this is wrong. And SS is useful and all, but his other stats are just way too poor.

No, they're still doing fine. Not as good as Laguz Royals, but more or less on par with the other dawn brigade units and a bit below the Crimean Army/Greil Mercs.

You have to play the game yourself, see the AI yourself, that's what counts.

Seeing the AI yourself only applies to FE5 where the AI actually has some degree of common sense and unpredictability. Playthrough videos serve the AI bit just fine.

Tigers do massive damage. What is your point?

Volug can take a lot more hits than Zihark and Nolan?

This is massive bullshit.

I have yet to see why.

And also Zihark and Nolan's A-B support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Volug's enemy phase.

Volug with Nolan (or Zihark) support's enemy phase >>>>>>>> Nolan and Zihark's A support overall.

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

Okay, since Volug has more move he clears chapters faster. More efficiency. Hardly a bad thing.

Volug has more move overall. He doesn't have to use all of it but is there when you need it; Nolan and Zihark don't have access to this. Of course, he can stay behind and support Nolan and Zihark. Support range is 1-3 anyway, so his high move shouldn't be too much of an issue; he still can't be by himself the entire game.

If we're judging tiers, it's irrelevant who is in a higher tier position because we're determining just that; who is in a higher tier list and who is not. And it's always subject to change, so judging a character on a tier list based upon who is high really ruins the point, especially since said unit even has a chance to go higher than the units that are supposedly higher.

Why the heck not? Volug is generally ditched after Part 3 because he's only as good as your other units and that's when he only has to use Olivi Grass. So Zihark and Nolan are preferred.

With saying this, I can easily counter with "Nolan and Zihark are ditched after Part III because they're underleveled in relativity to your other units." Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

You said this three times in your post, and I've shown why his stats are not average.

Later on, it is. Sure, at Part 3 it's fine.

Training 4 people is sort of favoritism and promotes inefficiency in earlier chapters.

WHAT? Micaiah and Sothe have to be trained. So they're in.

If you actually want to beat the chapters, you have to train 2 more units at least. The best are Nolan and Zihark.

Jill and Aran are your only candidates, are they are both in Upper mid tier. Also, while Nolan and Zihark takes north like I said before, you can defend in the east with even Volug if you prefer until the Burger King comes.

Volug gets an A/B with Zihark. Now he's better than Nolan.

Volug gets an A/B with Nolan. Now he's better than Zihark,

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

That doesn't matter. For about 60 or 70 percent of Nolan/Zihark's availability, he's doing better than them without training or EXP. Using him is more efficient than using units that require help to use.

I already said this in the first post?

I said that later on, he will need help to use, if not, he's shit.

Average implies that he's just as good as everyone else. This is false.

No, average implies that he doesn't have any godly stats or poor stats. Merely average.

What? Have you forgotten how much EXP there is in HM? You gain like half as much as you do in NM with the more enemies not even making up for it fully. 20/10 is seems right for the first chapter, and at best 20/20/1 seems right after the fifth chapter of Part IV. If not a LITTLE higher, but Volug's bound to still be on par with the units at this point.

You have 3 Paragons in Part IV. You can put them in the Convoy and use them each chapter. Micaiah's team will need it the most.

And also, is that seriously half as much? I barely saw any difference.

No, they're still doing fine. Not as good as Laguz Royals, but more or less on par with the other dawn brigade units and a bit below the Crimean Army/Greil Mercs.

Nolan + Zihark are much better than him. Naesala and Skrimir are stronger too.

Seeing the AI yourself only applies to FE5 where the AI actually has some degree of common sense and unpredictability. Playthrough videos serve the AI bit just fine.

You're assuming that every playthrough vid has been watched. You still need the gaming experience, you simply can't deny this. Mere videos aren't satisfactory.

Volug can take a lot more hits than Zihark and Nolan?

Only 1 more, and this is untrue, because Zihark and Nolan will be dodging them.

I have yet to see why.

Volug with Nolan (or Zihark) support's enemy phase >>>>>>>> Nolan and Zihark's A support overall.

I quoted my own post. Please read it.

Okay, since Volug has more move he clears chapters faster. More efficiency. Hardly a bad thing.

Volug has more move overall. He doesn't have to use all of it but is there when you need it; Nolan and Zihark don't have access to this. Of course, he can stay behind and support Nolan and Zihark. Support range is 1-3 anyway, so his high move shouldn't be too much of an issue; he still can't be by himself the entire game.

If we're judging tiers, it's irrelevant who is in a higher tier position because we're determining just that; who is in a higher tier list and who is not. And it's always subject to change, so judging a character on a tier list based upon who is high really ruins the point, especially since said unit even has a chance to go higher than the units that are supposedly higher.

He DOES have to use the move. He can't stay behind. You have to rush in these chapters. How are you supposed to get those supports?

Zihark would be awful without Nolan/Volug support. He really needs that avoid badly. It's likely why he's so high up.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

Later on, it is. Sure, at Part 3 it's fine.

He does not gain EXP as slowly as you think. Slow EXP gain happens when you're like, level 30 laguz come part 4. Volug is only level 15.

WHAT? Micaiah and Sothe have to be trained. So they're in.

If you actually want to beat the chapters, you have to train 2 more units at least. The best are Nolan and Zihark.

Arbitrary. I usually max out unit slots or come close to it in earlier chapters (keep in mind this is to promote efficiency, which you're so hyped about), and I end up sharing EXP among a few more units.

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

Right, you're telling me to look at the tier list to justify why Nolan and Zihark are together more. Volug is around longer than Zihark, first of all. Second, if Volug is doing better in the portion of the game where supports are being built, he is entitled to the A support as much as Nolan or Zihark.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

Two reasons: Nolan and Zihark are together, more useful for the entire game. Look at the tier list. Higher position. And also because of Volug's huge move difference. Nolan and Zihark can stay next to each other a lot.

Your position in a tier list doesn't affect how likely you are to get a support. If you're in play already, all that matters is how much the support helps. Volug support helps as much as Zihark/Nolan support does, so he's as likely as them to get one. The only way it would be false is if Volug's durability was so terrible that he could be in support range less, but this isn't true.

[Seph]

Your position in a tier list doesn't affect how likely you are to get a support. If you're in play already, all that matters is how much the support helps. Volug support helps as much as Zihark/Nolan support does, so he's as likely as them to get one. The only way it would be false is if Volug's durability was so terrible that he could be in support range less, but this isn't true.

In a way, it does. Look at it this way: Zihark would never be up so high in that tier list without Earth support. He REALLY, REALLY needs that avoid. So he should be supporting either Volug or Nolan.

Because Nolan is more useful in Part 4 and because it's much harder to support with Volug, Nolan will support with Zihark.

He does not gain EXP as slowly as you think. Slow EXP gain happens when you're like, level 30 laguz come part 4. Volug is only level 15.

He gains almost no exp for Part 1. When Part 4 comes, your other units are just.. better than him. Using Volug will be a hinderance because the enemies are rather powerful.

Arbitrary. I usually max out unit slots or come close to it in earlier chapters (keep in mind this is to promote efficiency, which you're so hyped about), and I end up sharing EXP among a few more units.

Having a smaller team generally makes chapters easier and more efficient, especially later in the game.

Right, you're telling me to look at the tier list to justify why Nolan and Zihark are together more. Volug is around longer than Zihark, first of all. Second, if Volug is doing better in the portion of the game where supports are being built, he is entitled to the A support as much as Nolan or Zihark.

In a way, it does. Look at it this way: Zihark would never be up so high in that tier list without Earth support. He REALLY, REALLY needs that avoid. So he should be supporting either Volug or Nolan.

I've been trying to say that it's harder for him to get an A support when you have to rush.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

No, average implies that he doesn't have any godly stats or poor stats. Merely average.

Average implies average. Meaning as good as everyone else. Because everyone else is average.

Only 1 more, and this is untrue, because Zihark and Nolan will be dodging them.

Volug will be dodging them with an earth support. Heck, since you're assuming NolanxZihark A in every one of your arguments, I'm going to assume Volug gets Resolve. Now he's invincible. Being able to take one more hit is huge - laguz have only 1 range, so only 4 can attack at a time.

He DOES have to use the move. He can't stay behind. You have to rush in these chapters. How are you supposed to get those supports?

So Volug runs ahead and kills all of the enemies? If this is the case, then I'm going to assume that Nolan is 16/0 by 3-6, and Zihark is still base level. What failures.

Zihark would be awful without Nolan/Volug support. He really needs that avoid badly. It's likely why he's so high up.

Volug wants the avoid as well, as does everyone else.

[dondon151]

In a way, it does. Look at it this way: Zihark would never be up so high in that tier list without Earth support. He REALLY, REALLY needs that avoid. So he should be supporting either Volug or Nolan.

Great! Volug gets an earth support with Zihark! Poor Nolan.

He gains almost no exp for Part 1. When Part 4 comes, your other units are just.. better than him. Using Volug will be a hinderance because the enemies are rather powerful.

Have we pretended that part 3 doesn't exist? I've shown that Volug is better than the DB beorcs at base level in 3-6 and 3-12. And he's bound to have gained levels as well, which easily means that when part 4 comes, Volug is doing just as well as your other units. He's also great in the desert chapter.

Having a smaller team generally makes chapters easier and more efficient, especially later in the game.

But it doesn't early in the game. See the dilemma here?

Excuse me for the double post, but stuff in this thread moves so fast that I'm afraid to edit my posts >.<

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Seph]

Average implies average. Meaning as good as everyone else. Because everyone else is average.

You're denying that there are better and worse units, which is nonsense.

Volug will be dodging them with an earth support. Heck, since you're assuming NolanxZihark A in every one of your arguments, I'm going to assume Volug gets Resolve. Now he's invincible. Being able to take one more hit is huge - laguz have only 1 range, so only 4 can attack at a time.

Um, what? I'm assuming Zihark/Nolan B in 3-6 and A in 3-12. 30 avoid is excellent still, and the laguz aren't exactly very accurate.

Resolve is favoritism. At least supports aren't.

So Volug runs ahead and kills all of the enemies? If this is the case, then I'm going to assume that Nolan is 16/0 by 3-6, and Zihark is still base level. What failures.

HAHA. You actually assumed that? Brilliant. Everyone has to rush in these chapters. And no, Volug can't kill everything, because he fails in 1-8 and 1-E. The moment he's ganged up on, he's dead.

He still has to rush. 1-5 Volug has to abuse his huge move here. 1-6-1, Volug has no problems rushing here and your team is going to be split up, but it is very likely that they have a chance to get together here. 1-6-2 is huge, a lot of place to go. In 1-7 you only have 10 turns, so you should probably send Zihark and Nolan up to get plenty of exp for them while Volug and others go to the other side. In 1-8, he will be far away from Nolan and Zihark. In 1-E, you have to go and kill the stupid thieves and you only have 15 turns. Your entire team will be rushing and they will be split up.

Basically Nolan and Zihark have more of a chance for sticking together and at least they are both incredibly useful in Part 4.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

Later on, it is. Sure, at Part 3 it's fine.

I should say this applies to the rest of the Dawn Brigade except they're doing shakily in Part III. Volug's not. Volug is secure.

If you actually want to beat the chapters, you have to train 2 more units at least. The best are Nolan and Zihark.

Four other units are far more efficient than two other units.

Jill and Aran are your only candidates, are they are both in Upper mid tier. Also, while Nolan and Zihark takes north like I said before, you can defend in the east with even Volug if you prefer until the Burger King comes.

Volug can defend better than all those other units can, though. After transforming, with resolve (well, everyone is entitled to Resolve, but Volug can use it to make up for his main shortcoming).

I already said this in the first post?

I said that later on, he will need help to use, if not, he's shit.

Same with the rest of the Dawn Brigade! Volug just needs less help!

No, average implies that he doesn't have any godly stats or poor stats. Merely average.

Average implies that you are on par with the mean stat total of the rest of your used units. Volug is beyond that.

You have 3 Paragons in Part IV. You can put them in the Convoy and use them each chapter. Micaiah's team will need it the most.

You're not putting anyone (aside from Volug) in Micaiah's team because of the desert chapter. Nolan, Zihark, and etc will all do poor because of terrible move; in fact, Volug even shines here because his move transformed is so much better than their move in general.

And also, is that seriously half as much? I barely saw any difference.

It's probably the BEXP I'm referring to. I do recall Micaiah getting like 15 EXP in the prologue chapter from a kill as opposed to about 25 or 30.

Nolan + Zihark are much better than him.

Proof?

Naesala and Skrimir are stronger too.

I'd have to be an idiot to deny that.

You're assuming that every playthrough vid has been watched. You still need the gaming experience, you simply can't deny this. Mere videos aren't satisfactory.

This is true in Castlevania. An action game that requires reflexes and such to play. Not true in turn based luck/tactic games like FE. (It's like half luck, half tactics, who knew?)

Only 1 more, and this is untrue, because Zihark and Nolan will be dodging them.

Or Volug/Nolan or Zihark will be dodging them, and the other will be taking hits like a punching bag. "Only one more" still makes a difference considering that not many enemies have to gang up on you to kill them.

He DOES have to use the move. He can't stay behind. You have to rush in these chapters. How are you supposed to get those supports?

You don't "have" to rush. I never rushed with Volug and I always got max BEXP. And even then, Volug can afford to stay behind with your average foot units (he can't afford to rush in mindlessly by himself) anyway.

By not personal experience, the turn limit is relatively high for many of the chapters anyway. You don't have to rush to fulfill them.

Zihark would be awful without Nolan/Volug support. He really needs that avoid badly. It's likely why he's so high up.

Volug barely needs the support to be good. Zihark does, Nolan doesn't really either. Volug should be above Zihark if he's awful without a support that all three of them are entitled to.

In a way, it does. Look at it this way: Zihark would never be up so high in that tier list without Earth support. He REALLY, REALLY needs that avoid. So he should be supporting either Volug or Nolan.

This is because Zihark has access to it. It does not mean he is automatically entitled to it over others.

Because Nolan is more useful in Part 4 and because it's much harder to support with Volug, Nolan will support with Zihark.

Nolan is _not_ more useful in Part IV because Volug's stats are still better and he's underleveled/powered.

He gains almost no exp for Part 1. When Part 4 comes, your other units are just.. better than him. Using Volug will be a hinderance because the enemies are rather powerful.

He gains plenty in Part III. He gains plenty in Part IV. He gets +2 per stat up in non-HP/Luck stats. Using anyone in the Dawn Brigade is a hindrance in all reality, but using Volug is less of one because he comes stronger. You have plenty Laguz Stones to spare too; Skrimir only needs one because his bar decreases somewhat slowly, from there he only needs Olivi Grass.

Having a smaller team generally makes chapters easier and more efficient, especially later in the game.

Earlier in the game, this is not the case. You can always decrease the number of people in your team though.

I've been trying to say that it's harder for him to get an A support when you have to rush.

You don't have to rush.

You're denying that there are better and worse units, which is nonsense.

Nothing better in the Dawn Brigade.

Um, what? I'm assuming Zihark/Nolan B in 3-6 and A in 3-12. 30 avoid is excellent still, and the laguz aren't exactly very accurate.

Laguz are pretty accurate. Where have you been?

On top of that, Nolan/Volug is likely to have an A by 3-6 anyway...

Resolve is favoritism. At least supports aren't.

In this game, they're even more about favoritism because anyone can support anyone.

HAHA. You actually assumed that? Brilliant. Everyone has to rush in these chapters. And no, Volug can't kill everything, because he fails in 1-8 and 1-E. The moment he's ganged up on, he's dead.

Same applies to EVERY NON NAILAH AND BURGER KING AND MUARIM UNIT IN THE DAWN BRIGADE EXCEPT HE TAKES IT A LITTLE BETTER. Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

You're denying that there are better and worse units, which is nonsense.

Uh, no? "Everyone else" implies middle of the pack. Which is average.

Um, what? I'm assuming Zihark/Nolan B in 3-6 and A in 3-12. 30 avoid is excellent still, and the laguz aren't exactly very accurate.

Resolve is favoritism. At least supports aren't.

Nice double standard you're setting up there.

HAHA. You actually assumed that? Brilliant. Everyone has to rush in these chapters. And no, Volug can't kill everything, because he fails in 1-8 and 1-E. The moment he's ganged up on, he's dead.

He still has to rush. 1-5 Volug has to abuse his huge move here. 1-6-1, Volug has no problems rushing here and your team is going to be split up, but it is very likely that they have a chance to get together here. 1-6-2 is huge, a lot of place to go. In 1-8, he will be far away from Nolan and Zihark. In 1-E, you have to go and kill the stupid thieves and you only have 15 turns. Your entire team will be rushing and they will be split up.

Learn to detect sarcasm. I was pointing out an inherent flaw in your argument that "Volug must rush, and therefore can't get an earth support, so Nolan and Zihark must be better." You're saying that if Volug goes off by himself, then he'll get ganged up on and killed. Yet you're also saying that he can't stay near the pack because he's rushing. 1-8 is the only chapter where he's guaranteed to not be near your other units.

Basically Nolan and Zihark have more of a chance for sticking together and at least they are both incredibly useful in Part 4.

Not going to argue with your latter point. It is why they're higher on the tier list, after all. It doesn't make Volug any lower, either.

[CGV]

Um, what? I'm assuming Zihark/Nolan B in 3-6 and A in 3-12. 30 avoid is excellent still, and the laguz aren't exactly very accurate

Resolve is favoritism. At least supports aren't.

Aren't very accurate? Are you fucking kidding me? You're saying that transformed cats aren't accurate? Even with a good earth support they still have a chance to hit you

Supports can be deemed favoritism when you're constantly pairing Nolan and Zihark. I can always assume Volug and Nolan would be supporting (which makes more sense because you get Volug a chapter before Zihark), so does that make it favoritism. Sure seems like it to me

[dondon151]

Wait, what the hell are you (Julius) arguing anyway?

Volug is lower than Zihark, Nolan, and Sothe on the tier list. He's higher than Laura, Jill, Aran, etc. How is that overrated? No one has argued that, for example, Laura or Jill is better than Volug. You haven't argued that. All you've done is reinforce his position on the tier list. That all that we've done as well.

I'm actually a little confused here o.O

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[CGV]

Naesala and Skrimir are stronger too

NO FUCKING WAY!!!! I TOTALLY DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!!!! Wow Julius, I gotta hand to you. You sure do know how to point out the good points. Who would've guessed that a LAGUZ KING and a LAGUZ PRINCE would be stronger than an ordinary Laguz?

Julius, this post is so fail it hurt when I laughed at it

[Seph]

It is a huge pain in the ass to reply to all these posts, I think I might just stop..

I should say this applies to the rest of the Dawn Brigade except they're doing shakily in Part III. Volug's not. Volug is secure.

We're talking about Part 4.

Four other units are far more efficient than two other units.

You have Micaiah, Sothe and Volug, and then the Burger King in 3-6, which is fine.

After 3-6, you can complete chapters using only Nolan and Zihark if you want with some nice strategies.

Volug can defend better than all those other units can, though. After transforming, with resolve (well, everyone is entitled to Resolve, but Volug can use it to make up for his main shortcoming).

Nolan + Zihark is defending worse than Volug? Alright.

Same with the rest of the Dawn Brigade! Volug just needs less help!

We were talking about Nolan and Zihark, not the rest of the Dawn Brigade. They have much more potential than Volug.

In Part 3 Volug is going to be needing to use a lot of Olivi Grass to train, which is a pain in the ass.

Average implies that you are on par with the mean stat total of the rest of your used units. Volug is beyond that.

This is stupid. So Volug is beyond the mean stat total of Nolan, Zihark, Sothe and Micaiah at Part 4? This is just nonsense.

You're not putting anyone (aside from Volug) in Micaiah's team because of the desert chapter. Nolan, Zihark, and etc will all do poor because of terrible move; in fact, Volug even shines here because his move transformed is so much better than their move in general.

Nolan and Zihark can work fine if they go south, because the enemies are very close.

And this chapter is rout which sucks with no player phase action, and Volug can't attack back at 2 range, which many of the enemies have here.

Proof?

A support.

This is true in Castlevania. An action game that requires reflexes and such to play. Not true in turn based luck/tactic games like FE. (It's like half luck, half tactics, who knew?)

This is personal opinion and not statistics, so I am skipping this.

Or Volug/Nolan or Zihark will be dodging them, and the other will be taking hits like a punching bag. "Only one more" still makes a difference considering that not many enemies have to gang up on you to kill them.

Like I said, Nolan and Zihark should be supported, and also Volug is the best at taking hits like a punching bag.

You don't "have" to rush. I never rushed with Volug and I always got max BEXP. And even then, Volug can afford to stay behind with your average foot units (he can't afford to rush in mindlessly by himself) anyway.

By not personal experience, the turn limit is relatively high for many of the chapters anyway. You don't have to rush to fulfill them.

Personal experience isn't worth anything. And the move isn't even the only reason why Volug shouldn't be supported with Nolan or Zihark..

So 1-7 has a high turn limit? 1-6 has a high turn limit? 1-8 has a high turn limit?

Volug barely needs the support to be good. Zihark does, Nolan doesn't really either. Volug should be above Zihark if he's awful without a support that all three of them are entitled to.

Volug is entitled to it less. Read my first post.

Nolan also needs an avoid support to be really good.

This is because Zihark has access to it. It does not mean he is automatically entitled to it over others.

He's automatically entitled to Nolan/Volug over others because of this reason alone.

Nolan is _not_ more useful in Part IV because Volug's stats are still better and he's underleveled/powered.

... You have a Paragon, which should probably go to Nolan or Jill since they're underleveled compared to your prepromotes.

Volug has transformation issues like any other laguz, and all the disadvantages in my first post. Nolan does not.

And if he has an A support with Zihark, he is more useful.

He gains plenty in Part III. He gains plenty in Part IV. He gets +2 per stat up in non-HP/Luck stats. Using anyone in the Dawn Brigade is a hindrance in all reality, but using Volug is less of one because he comes stronger. You have plenty Laguz Stones to spare too; Skrimir only needs one because his bar decreases somewhat slowly, from there he only needs Olivi Grass.

Except Volug isn't a heron and you have limited time in Part 4 chapters, your player phases are wasted because of transformation items. Not only that, but also because he doesn't have two range, weak to fire, crappy durability, etc.

I noticed that this all comes down to whether Nolan wants Volug or Zihark support though, which we should be debating about.

[CGV]

Wait, what the hell are you (Julius) arguing anyway?

Volug is lower than Zihark, Nolan, and Sothe on the tier list. He's higher than Laura, Jill, Aran, etc. How is that overrated? No one has argued that, for example, Laura or Jill is better than Volug. You haven't argued that. All you've done is reinforce his position on the tier list. That all that we've done as well.

I'm actually a little confused here o.O

This post descriebes every one of Julius' posts

It is a huge pain in the ass to reply to all these posts, I think I might just stop..

Nolan + Zihark is defending worse than Volug? Alright

We were talking about Nolan and Zihark, not the rest of the Dawn Brigade. They have much more potential than Volug

A support

Like I said, Nolan and Zihark should be supported, and also Volug is the best at taking hits like a punching bag

Nolan also needs an avoid support to be really good

... You have a Paragon, which should probably go to Nolan or Jill since they're underleveled compared to your prepromotes

I noticed that this all comes down to whether Nolan wants Volug or Zihark support though, which we should be debating about

I think you should stop because you're getting owned big time

TECHNICALLY that's true because they're not defending, they're AVOIDING

They sure do because they're higher on the tier list. So how about proving someone who's LOWER than Volug on the list to be better than him?

A support? What kind of counter point is that? I can do better than that!

Just because you think they should doesn't mean that have to. Who says Volug can't support Nolan or Zihark. And if he doesn't support either one, who says he still can't get some avoid by supporting someone else?

Again, that should thing pisses me off. They don't have to have the paragon. Jill comes at level 14 so how is she so farther behind? She can even fly so how many units has she killed if she's so far behind he needs paragon? And Nolan comes at level 9 on 1-1. He shouldn't be far behind either. So Paragon goes to Volug

I agree

[Seph]

The usefulness of Volug comes down to Nolan and Zihark, so we should start debating about that now.

The common argument of Volug outclassing your other units. This is true in Part 1 for sure. In Part 3, Nolan has the Beastfoe/Crossbow combo which is the most efficient way to deal with 3-6 since you will be one rounding tigers, the most dangerous things. Zihark has Adept and he'll be doubling everything. He can even kill tigers once Adept activates or he gets a critical, and he has a rather good chance to do so. Volug needs beastfoe to one round everything, but he shouldn't be. Jill is indeed rather poor in this chapter and she has to use a Brave Axe. Don't forget Volug's transformation issues.

In 3-12, you have to wait 2 turns while this chapter is going to be taking a short time. Anyways, Volug statistically may be better than others, but he doesn't have 2 range, which the enemy units have a lot here, and is a big disadvantage for him.

In 3-13, this entirely depends on what strategy you use, so I'm not giving any a point here.

If you're using Paragon well in Chapters 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13, Nolan and Zihark should be quite high enough for Part 4, and they are better than Volug. At the end of chapter 4-P, Nolan should be about 20/20/3, and better than Volug. The same goes for Zihark. Even if you're training Jill, you get incredible exp in 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 and 4-P, so it should be just enough to promote them at the end of 4-P.

Volug is definitely useful in Part 1, but the other units start becoming more useful in 3 and 4.

TECHNICALLY that's true because they're not defending, they're AVOIDING

This is beyond stupid. Avoiding > defending, so it's a good thing.

They sure do because they're higher on the tier list. So how about proving someone who's LOWER than Volug on the list to be better than him?

Jill is going to be better than him, but Volug has earlygame advantage.

A support? What kind of counter point is that? I can do better than that!

Well since you're shit at counter points and you can barely type with intelligence, I doubt that. Anyways,

They will have A support. That's 45 avoid.

Just because you think they should doesn't mean that have to. Who says Volug can't support Nolan or Zihark. And if he doesn't support either one, who says he still can't get some avoid by supporting someone else?

That's what we're debating about right now, and also his A support with Nolan / Zihark is much more useful.

Again, that should thing pisses me off. They don't have to have the paragon. Jill comes at level 14 so how is she so farther behind? She can even fly so how many units has she killed if she's so far behind he needs paragon? And Nolan comes at level 9 on 1-1. He shouldn't be far behind either. So Paragon goes to Volug

PARAGON GOES TO VOLUG?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

You just proved that your opinion is worthless. No need to even reply to you anymore.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Julius