Volug

[Seph]

To avoid murdering the tier list thread..

Hard mode, maximum bexp assumed.

Volug is a character in FE10 like very much of you know.

He starts off at Level 15 with the following stats:

HP: 49

Str: 11

Skl: 12

Spd: 13

Luk: 13

Def: 9

Res: 5

Earth affinity, which is cool.

Disadvantages

- No forge, beorc weapons, etc.

- Transformation issues at Part 3 and above.

- Levels up as slow as hell, so he fails later on.

- Weak to fire.

- Lack of 2 range.

- Taking EXP from a team lacking with EXP.

- Garbage growths.

Let's see his usefulness in each chapter:

Part 1

1-5: Yes, he is quite useful here, just watch out for the mages.

1-6-1: Again, useful here.

1-6-2: Yeah.

1-7: He starts meeting enemies he can't double here, and he's not hurting the Armors much. His usefulness has degraded now. You only have 10 turns to finish this chapter, and Volug is no long anywhere near as efficient as he was before, he stops doubling some of the enemies here. At least Zihark and Nolan have ways to deal with the armors, Volug does not. Other units are more efficient than him. He's no where near as good as before, but he's okay. Him not one rounding hurts sometimes, but sometimes it's good, because it gets kills for Micaiah.

1-8: You only have 6 turns to finish this chapter.. He cannot one round any of the melee units here with Wildheart, so he is less efficient in this chapter. By this point, none of your units need babying. You want to complete the chapter as fast as possible, so not being able to one round is a disadvantage. It's too risky to one round the mage units, he starts taking larger damage from melee units here, so he's no longer Mr. Uber Useful. This chapter is rout enemy, so not being able to one round isn't cool, when people like Zihark and Nailah are, and maybe even Jill and Nolan. Note that he will barely be gaining any levels so his usefulness is less. So he's not as efficient here. Him not one rounding here is a terrible thing, because Volug will be at the west while Micaiah goes at like the east.

1-F: He has even more trouble here. He is not one rounding anything except mages, which are very risky. At least this chapter is Seize, though. Volug is quite vulnerable to damage, as well. His defence is rather low. He has troubles with Jarod's authority since he is very far from invincible. Enemies have a good chance at killing him. You only have 12 turns to beat this chapter.

Summary: He is only very useful in the first chapters, after that, for the reasons I explained, inefficient.

Part 3

Note: The first two turns of each chapter are wasted because he has to use Olivi Grass, and some of the following turns are also wasted.

He has transformation issues and has no ranged game at all - the best weapon against the Laguz in Part 3.

3-6: Assuming you gave Crossbow Beastfoe for the most efficiency. Alright, you can take off Wildheart here and make him rely on Olivi Grass. He is nothing with Wildheart here. Pray tell, why does everyone love Olivi Grass here? He has to use it twice in the first two turns, and only THEN can he Transform and be useful. Since the enemy laguz will harass him all the time, his transformation gauge will go down, and now he has to use another Olivi Grass. This just goes on, and on, and on. How does this make a unit more efficient? You can't rely on him for several turns JUST BECAUSE he has to keep his form constant, but you can use a beorc unit just as strong (Nolan, Zihark, Sothe with a Beast Killer) in order to kill things. He is just not as useful as everyone says. His usefulness diminishes greatly at this point, because he's as strong as your other units, worse even, THEN he has to use the Olivi Grass to remain useful. And his huge move isn't useful here, because of the water. Volug, once transformed, can one round cats, but Nolan and Zihark are murdering tigers, much more useful.

3-12: Not useful for 2 turns at the beginning. Alright, so while your units are protecting the southern part, Volug is taking his time in order to become useful. How does this make a unit efficient, precisely? He has to eat Olivi Grass once in every 3 turns. The other units are better than Volug here anyway.

3-13: In here, it totally depends on your strategy. By blocking the two squares with Nolan and Zihark for the most ease, and blocking every single ledge with unneeded units, you just have to watch out for the hawks, which your partner units can do. Volug can't wall very well here, because he has to wait 2 turns for the Olivi Grass. At turn 3, he comes, transforms, and has to use more Olivi Grass. There's something called "wasting exp". He's so useless after Part 3, that it's just a waste for him to wall things during this chapter.

In short, in Part 3 he's as strong as your other units BUT he needs a lot of time to prepare and use Olivi Grass and stuff. That again, does not warrant high tier.

Part 4

Terrible, outclassed, many words for this. He fails here. Being terrible in a whole part again, doesn't warrant high tier. Desert chapter? He levels up too slowly and he is therefore too weak for it.

Support

Support candidates:

Micaiah: A support with Sothe, so no.

Sothe: A support with Micaiah, so no.

Leonardo: Archer, doesn't need it.

Nolan: Generally supported with Eddie or Zihark, not with Volug.

Edward: Nolan.

Ilyana: Fails.

Aran: He's fine, but he's not dodging very much anyway, so it feels wasted.

Meg: Failure.

Tauroneo: No support generally.

Jill: Jill constantly flying around will make this support harder to get.

Zihark: Nolan.

Fiona: No.

Tormod: No.

Muarim: No.

Vika: No.

Nailah: No.

Rafiel: Heron, no need for support.

Go ahead and support him with Aran. The avoid feels wasted and the def bonus isn't much at all. And also, the move difference is hugeeee while Volug always wants to move far.

The most likely one is probably Jill, but it's hard to get since Jill flies. The whole point of a wyvern is to make surprise attacks, get an odd kill here and there. Jill will be hitting and running, basically, while Volug assists your other units.

Let's see how you get this support in Part 1:

1-6-1: Jill is flying around killing pegasus with ease. No time here.

1-6-2: The map is very large and there's a lot of place to fly for Jill. The most plausible one but Jill has less move than Volug. You only have 15 turns to finish both chapters, that's limited. You don't have time to keep Jill and Volug together while you're rushing.

1-7:: Plausible, but Jill's move little here and you want to rush if you want to beat the chapter in 10 turns, so Volug will always be ahead of Jill, making the support tough to get again.

1-8:: Jill isn't even in this chapter.

1-F:: Jill's move here is decreased, while Volug has huge move still and you only have 12 turns to beat this chapter... It's still tough to support here, but possible nonetheless.

Summary: The move difference indoors is too much to support, and outdoor the difference is small yet it can prevent them from being next to each other. You want to finish chapters fast so Volug will be going far and away from Jill.

Why this support isn't very useful: You aren't getting much out of this support in Part 1. The avoid is too little for it to make an actual difference, especially in 1-F. In Part 3, Jill is going to be hit and running, get an odd kill here and there, she usually can't get near Volug enough because of her flying skills. Especially in 3-13, she has fun killing hawks. Even if in Part 3 you were able to use this support well, in Part 4 it's essentially garbage, so..

--------------------------

My point? Volug is overrated. Why? Because he's only very useful for the first 3 maps. After that, he is no longer very useful and later on, outclassed beyond belief.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[_____]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but...

- Garbage growths.

Most Laguz are best trained using only BExp. It makes Volug reach Nailah-like stats, iirc.

[Seph]

Most Laguz are best trained using only BExp. It makes Volug reach Nailah-like stats, iirc.

And so your bexp is gone, while instead you could be using it for Nolan and Zihark and Jill and others.

Volug is not going to level up nearly as much as others so he's going to be needing a lot more bexp. In HM, it's just not enough. You want the bexp to cap a lot of stats for your units once they've capped a few.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

Why this support isn't very useful: You aren't getting much out of this support in Part 1. The avoid is too little for it to make an actual difference, especially in 1-F. In Part 3, Jill is going to be hit and running, get an odd kill here and there, she usually can't get near Volug enough because of her flying skills. Especially in 3-13, she has fun killing hawks. Even if in Part 3 you were able to use this support well, in Part 4 it's essentially garbage, so..

30 avoid is too little to be useful, while 45 avoid makes a unit god? What?

Aside from some garbage defensive growths, Volug has massive HP and Luk (which aren't doubled) and decent Str, Skl and Spd (which are doubled). His join level is actually pretty low.

[Seph]

30 avoid is too little to be useful, while 45 avoid makes a unit god? What?

30 avoid is good, that's not why I called "not very useful". Entirely different reasons. Read my post please.

In Part 1 you will only be getting like C support. Not A. Note this is "maximum bexp assumed".

His growths still are garbage, though.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Penitent]

Stop exaggerating please.

To avoid murdering the tier list thread..

Hard mode, maximum bexp assumed.

Volug is a character in FE10 like very much of you know.

He starts off at Level 15 with the following stats:

HP: 49

Str: 11

Skl: 12

Spd: 13

Luk: 13

Def: 9

Res: 5

Earth affinity, which is cool.

Disadvantages

- No forge, beorc weapons, etc.

Sorry, one moment.

Okay, ready.

- Transformation issues at Part 3 and above. What issues? Please be more specific.

- Levels up as slow as hell, so he fails later on. Bonus experience is your friend - it's apparently easier to train laguz that way. You can still afford to fairly distribute it to laguz along with everyone else you may take in your party.

- Weak to fire. OH NO IT'S DIVERSITY RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

- Lack of 2 range. Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with what you mean here. 2 range?

- Huge move but no Canto. What?

- Taking EXP from a team lacking with EXP. You don't have to level up the whole Dawn Brigade, however, and they get a heap of experience as it is.

- Garbage growths. Mostly true, but he's a laguz unit. Every single point outside of HP and Luck that he gets is actually two. If he's flawed, then it's the fault of laguz in general, not his specifically.

Let's see his usefulness in each chapter:

Part 1

1-5: Yes, he is quite useful here, just watch out for the mages. He's an experience-drain unless you send him after the boss, which is risky but also possibly the only way to defeat him in time. I personally don't recommend using him too much or at all until 1-6-2.

1-6-1: Again, useful here. He's still an experience drain, technically. Along with the two other possible (but not forced) drains, Tauroneo and Zihark.

1-6-2: Yeah. Yeah. Plus, Laverton's creeped out by him. :D

1-7: He starts meeting enemies he can't double here, and he's not hurting the Armors much. His usefulness has degraded now. You only have 10 turns to finish this chapter, and Volug is no long anywhere near as efficient as he was before, he stops doubling some of the enemies here. At least Zihark and Nolan have ways to deal with the armors, Volug does not. Other units are more efficient than him. He's no where near as good as before, but he's okay. Him not one rounding hurts sometimes, but sometimes it's good, because it gets kills for Micaiah.

It's a good thing he meets enemies he can't twoshot or double - you're forgetting that allows him to level up his Strike skill, which is how Volug is trained in Part I, and leave them weakened enough for other units to finish off without injury, as you yourself agree on. Hence why I like sending him against the Armoured soldiers.

1-8: You only have 6 turns to finish this chapter.. He cannot one round any of the melee units here with Wildheart, so he is less efficient in this chapter. By this point, none of your units need babying. You want to complete the chapter as fast as possible, so not being able to one round is a disadvantage. It's too risky to one round the mage units, he starts taking larger damage from melee units here, so he's no longer Mr. Uber Useful. This chapter is rout enemy, so not being able to one round isn't cool, when people like Zihark and Nailah are, and maybe even Jill and Nolan. Note that he will barely be gaining any levels so his usefulness is less. So he's not as efficient here. Him not one rounding here is a terrible thing, because Volug will be at the west while Micaiah goes at like the east. Why do we only have six? And yes, Volug may struggle if he's sent in alone against a wad on this mission. Hence, use him sensibly like you would any other character or feel free to let Nailah and some other characters back him up - his drainage days are at an end.

1-F: He has even more trouble here. He is not one rounding anything except mages, which are very risky. At least this chapter is Seize, though. Volug is quite vulnerable to damage, as well. His defence is rather low. He has troubles with Jarod's authority since he is very far from invincible. Enemies have a good chance at killing him. You only have 12 turns to beat this chapter. Agreed that using Volug recklessly is very risky in this chapter.

Summary: He is only very useful in the first chapters, after that, for the reasons I explained, inefficient. You seem to be overlooking the point behind using Volug in Part I. It's not for experience, it's not necessarily as a bailout unit, it's so that you can level up his Strike level, which many laguz units struggle to do. Hence his advantage. Some of the reasons are still lacking in detail. He's also the best candidate in the Dawn Brigade for Renewal due to his high health.

Part 3

Note: The first two turns of each chapter are wasted because he has to use Olivi Grass, and some of the following turns are also wasted. Not wasted. Volug gains MUCH more experience if he engages combat whilst untransformed, and his high health and already considerable speed allow him to keep up with the laguz very well in Chapter 6.

He has transformation issues and has no ranged game at all - the best weapon against the Laguz in Part 3.

3-6: Assuming you gave Crossbow Beastfoe for the most efficiency. Alright, you can take off Wildheart here and make him rely on Olivi Grass. He is nothing with Wildheart here. Pray tell, why does everyone love Olivi Grass here? He has to use it twice in the first two turns, and only THEN can he Transform and be useful. Since the enemy laguz will harass him all the time, his transformation gauge will go down, and now he has to use another Olivi Grass. This just goes on, and on, and on. How does this make a unit more efficient? You can't rely on him for several turns JUST BECAUSE he has to keep his form constant, but you can use a beorc unit just as strong (Nolan, Zihark, Sothe with a Beast Killer) in order to kill things. He is just not as useful as everyone says. His usefulness diminishes greatly at this point, because he's as strong as your other units, worse even, THEN he has to use the Olivi Grass to remain useful. And his huge move isn't useful here, because of the water. Volug, once transformed, can one round cats, but Nolan and Zihark are murdering tigers, much more useful. Allow me to inform you of an uncanny Volug tactic for this mission; equip him with both Beastfoe and Resolve (which you get from Tauroneo), and send him out untransformed (along with your other units if you want to play it safe). The results can be staggering.

3-12: Not useful for 2 turns at the beginning. Alright, so while your units are protecting the southern part, Volug is taking his time in order to become useful. How does this make a unit efficient, precisely? He has to eat Olivi Grass once in every 3 turns. The other units are better than Volug here anyway. I'm not sure what you mean, since the first two turns are technically spent advancing on the enemy, given the space distance between them and you Hide Volug behind Nolan, Edward and Aran for turn 1, or let him guard one spot that's set up so he can only be attacked once. He can survive at least two hits reliably for some good experience (and if he has a good support then he may even dodge), and then Laura or Micaiah can patch him up. If he has been trained, then he is more than able to keep up with the rest of the Dawn Brigade.

3-13: In here, it totally depends on your strategy. By blocking the two squares with Nolan and Zihark for the most ease, and blocking every single ledge with unneeded units, you just have to watch out for the hawks, which your partner units can do. Volug can't wall very well here, because he has to wait 2 turns for the Olivi Grass. At turn 3, he comes, transforms, and has to use more Olivi Grass. There's something called "wasting exp". He's so useless after Part 3, that it's just a waste for him to wall things during this chapter. Again, if he's been trained then he's very capable in this chapter.

In short, in Part 3 he's as strong as your other units BUT he needs a lot of time to prepare and use Olivi Grass and stuff. That again, does not warrant high tier. Two turns isn't a lot of time. Those two are spent moving out.

Part 4

Terrible, outclassed, many words for this. He fails here. Being terrible in a whole part again, doesn't warrant high tier. Desert chapter? He levels up too slowly and he is therefore too weak for it. He's not horrible at all if you've trained him; in fact, he's quite reliable. I make him part of my Endgame team. :D

Support

Support candidates:

Micaiah: A support with Sothe, so no.

Sothe: A support with Micaiah, so no.

Leonardo: Archer, doesn't need it.

Nolan: Generally supported with Eddie or Zihark, not with Volug.

Edward: Nolan.

Ilyana: Fails.

Aran: He's fine, but he's not dodging very much anyway, so it feels wasted.

Meg: Failure.

Tauroneo: No support generally.

Jill: Jill constantly flying around will make this support harder to get.

Zihark: Nolan.

Fiona: No.

Tormod: No.

Muarim: No.

Vika: No.

Nailah: No.

Rafiel: Heron, no need for support.

Go ahead and support him with Aran. The avoid feels wasted and the def bonus isn't much at all. And also, the move difference is hugeeee while Volug always wants to move far.

The most likely one is probably Jill, but it's hard to get since Jill flies. The whole point of a wyvern is to make surprise attacks, get an odd kill here and there. Jill will be hitting and running, basically, while Volug assists your other units. You forgot Laura, who I pair him up with. :( Their support gives a +8 hit and +30 dodge, which is very handy.

Let's see how you get this support in Part 1:

1-6-1: Jill is flying around killing pegasus with ease. No time here.

1-6-2: The map is very large and there's a lot of place to fly for Jill. The most plausible one but Jill has less move than Volug. You only have 15 turns to finish both chapters, that's limited. You don't have time to keep Jill and Volug together while you're rushing.

1-7:: Plausible, but Jill's move little here and you want to rush if you want to beat the chapter in 10 turns, so Volug will always be ahead of Jill, making the support tough to get again.

1-8:: Jill isn't even in this chapter.

1-F:: Jill's move here is decreased, while Volug has huge move still and you only have 12 turns to beat this chapter... It's still tough to support here, but possible nonetheless.

Summary: The move difference indoors is too much to support, and outdoor the difference is small yet it can prevent them from being next to each other. You want to finish chapters fast so Volug will be going far and away from Jill.

Why this support isn't very useful: You aren't getting much out of this support in Part 1. The avoid is too little for it to make an actual difference, especially in 1-F. In Part 3, Jill is going to be hit and running, get an odd kill here and there, she usually can't get near Volug enough because of her flying skills. Especially in 3-13, she has fun killing hawks. Even if in Part 3 you were able to use this support well, in Part 4 it's essentially garbage, so..

--------------------------

My point? Volug is overrated. Why? Because he's only very useful for the first 3 maps. After that, he is no longer very useful and later on, outclassed beyond belief. Are you sure? :V

Edited January 2, 2009 by Penitent

[Seph]

I'll be answering the ones which make sense to answer in.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/im...32/Facepalm.jpg

And WHY is this so wrong? He doesn't have 2 range, he doesn't have Forge, nothing wrong with this.

What issues? Please be more specific.

I.. explained this all in Part 3 section.

Bonus experience is your friend - it's apparently easier to train laguz that way.

And so your bexp is gone, while instead you could be using it for Nolan and Zihark and Jill and others.

Volug is not going to level up nearly as much as others so he's going to be needing a lot more bexp. In HM, it's just not enough. You want the bexp to cap a lot of stats for your units once they've capped a few.

You don't have to level up the whole Dawn Brigade, however, and they get a heap of experience as it is.

They will be getting little in Part 1. And in Part 3 it's not enough for them to become as leveled as Ike and others.

It's a good thing he meets enemies he can't double - you're forgetting that allows him to level up his Strike skill, which is how Volug is trained in Part I, and leave them weakened enough for other units to finish off without injury, as you yourself agree on. Hence why I like sending him against the Armoured soldiers.

I said that he's good in 1-7, but him not one rounding definitely hurts in some cases because you have a few turns and you have to rush a lot in this chapter.

Why do we only have six?

http://serenesforest.net/fe10/bonus.html

You seem to be overlooking the point behind using Volug in Part I. It's not for experience, it's not necessarily as a bailout unit, it's so that you can level up his Strike level, which many laguz units struggle to do. Hence his advantage. Some of the reasons are still lacking in detail.

I explained why leveling his Strike fails later on.

Not wasted. Volug gains MUCH more experience if he engages combat whilst untransformed, and his high health and already considerable speed allow him to keep up with the laguz very well in Chapter 6.

IN HARD MODE? Can you do that? I stated this at the beginning of the thread.

Allow me to inform you of an uncanny Volug tactic for this mission; equip him with both Beastfoe and Resolve (which you get from Tauroneo), and send him out untransformed (along with your other units if you want to play it safe). The results can be staggering.

We're talking about hard mode here.

Olivi Grass. He can survive one hit for some good experience (and if he has a good support then he may even dodge), and then Laura or Micaiah can patch him up. If he has been trained, then he is more than able to keep up with the rest of the Dawn Brigade.

This is hard mode, so untransformed training is out of the question. If it were, it would have been mentioned in the previous debate.

Again, if he's been trained then he's very capable in this chapter.

But he's not.

Two turns isn't a lot of time. Those two are spent moving out.

With my strategy you can start walling on the first turn.

He's not horrible at all if you've trained him; in fact, he's quite reliable.

Normal and easy mode? Alright. Not hard.

You forgot Laura, who I pair him up with. sad.gif Their support gives a +8 hit and +30 dodge, which is very handy.

This.. is stupid. Laura has crap move, Volug has great move, and you have limited turns to finish the chapters.

Are you sure? :V

I think the problem here is that you didn't see that this is about hard mode.

[dondon151]

30 avoid is good, that's not why I called "not very useful". Entirely different reasons. Read my post please.

I disagree that Volug won't be near Jill enough to support. Units don't need to have the same move to be next to each other after a turn. If you're charging, which you always assume, Volug and Jill and second to Nailah because of their move advantage, and they'll likely be ahead of the pack. This is a point for Volug. In fact, I think it improves efficiency in the long run to have Volug build a Jill support and slightly hinder efficiency in the short run. Furthermore, you make it seem necessary that Volug be used in order to maximize BEXP, but you contend that he steals EXP from your units (btw, this argument has been shown to not hold water numerous times in every other FE game). So which one is it? If you don't use him, you're damned, and if you use him, you're damned (but you actually aren't).

If you can snag maximum BEXP by not using Volug, that is, by not using units that have 8 or 9 move or whatever he has, then there is no reason for Volug (and Jill) to be flying in front of the pack. This means that they can build supports. But since you're having them in front of everyone else... Volug serves much of the same purpose as Sothe, except better. Sothe lags later on, yet that doesn't stop him from being high tier.

His growths still are garbage, though.

His bases are pretty damn good, and since laguz stats are doubled when relevant (i.e. all the time), he effectively has doubled growths in every stat but HP and Luk.

Disadvantages

- No forge, beorc weapons, etc.

- Transformation issues at Part 3 and above.

- Levels up as slow as hell, so he fails later on.

- Weak to fire.

- Lack of 2 range.

- Huge move but no Canto.

- Taking EXP from a team lacking with EXP.

- Garbage growths.

Most of these are valid points, especially no specialized weapons, transformation issues, fire weakness, and lack of 2 range. Though these are specific to pretty much all laguz, they should still be considered. I've stated in the tier list topic, however, that fire weakness is negligible (there being no fire mages in part 3), transformation issues are minimized thanks to 32 uses of Olivi Grass that Volug has all to himself, and lack of weakness hitting weapons is negligible as well (there being no armors or mounts in part 3). The big disadvantages are lack of 2 range and lack of weapon variety.

Volug's EXP gain rate picks up in part 3, where he still murders all of your other DB units in stats. At base level. I've shown this in the tier list topic - if Volug fails, then every single other member of the DB fails.

Having huge move is a boon in itself, and not having re-move is hardly a point against him - your only units who can re-move in the DB are Jill and Fiona. It makes no sense that he should be penalized for that.

Taking EXP, as I've said, is not a valid argument, and it can be applied to any character. Read Mekkah's debate topic or something.

Garbage growths I've already countered as well. Volug gets 3.25 stat points per level up on average, which is only slightly below average compared to beorc characters. When you consider that some of those stats are doubled... growths are hardly garbage. Also, Volug gets 3.25 stat points per level up on average, which means that you would rather not raise him on BEXP.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Seph]

If you're charging, which you always assume,

You are. 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, in all of these you have to charge, for maximum bexp.

Volug and Jill and second to Nailah because of their move advantage, and they'll likely be ahead of the pack.

I explained all of this too. 1-6-1, impossible, Jill is taking down the pegasi. 1-6-2, this is indeed the most likely chapter but it stops now. 1-7, the move difference is 2 and you only have 10 turns. So you have to charge, not enough time to support. 1-8, not there. 1-9, neither. 1-E, move difference again and the turns are very limited. You will be getting a C in an efficient playthrough.

Furthermore, you make it seem necessary that Volug be used in order to maximize BEXP, but you contend that he steals EXP from your units (btw, this argument has been shown to not hold water numerous times in every other FE game). So which one is it? If you don't use him, you're damned, and if you use him, you're damned (but you actually aren't).

Now you're exaggerating. If you use him, you're blessed. If you use him too much, you're damned.

His bases are pretty damn good, and since laguz stats are doubled when relevant (i.e. all the time), he effectively has doubled growths in every stat but HP and Luk.

...Doesn't change the fact that he has crap growths. I'm not talking about bases, I'm talking about growths. Worse growths, you'll be stuck with your bases for longer. He's not improving very much.

Volug's EXP gain rate picks up in part 3, where he still murders all of your other DB units in stats. At base level. I've shown this in the tier list topic - if Volug fails, then every single other member of the DB fails.

Yeah, he does. But I explained why he's not as efficient as your other members - Olivi Grass. I don't want to repeat myself so many times, so please read back.

Having huge move is a boon in itself, and not having re-move is hardly a point against him - your only units who can re-move in the DB are Jill and Fiona. It makes no sense that he should be penalized for that.

It's very useful to have Canto with high move, though. And it's a disadvantage not to have Canto for everyone who has Canto, but yes I wasn't too sure when I put it myself so it may be removed.

Taking EXP, as I've said, is not a valid argument, and it can be applied to any character. Read Mekkah's debate topic or something.

Can you at least explain, or copy paste why?

It can't. I've explained this. Because Volug is going to be ditched at Part 4. Your other units are not.

Garbage growths I've already countered as well. Volug gets 3.25 stat points per level up on average, which is only slightly below average compared to beorc characters. When you consider that some of those stats are doubled... growths are hardly garbage. Also, Volug gets 3.25 stat points per level up on average, which means that you would rather not raise him on BEXP.

That's not what matters.

http://serenesforest.net/fe10/average/volug.html

Averages are what matters.

You have to level 4 times for str, 3 times for skill, 3 times for speed, 7 times for def, many times for Res.

That's not good, being stuck with your bases for a while.

[Lord Raven]

But on average you're gaining 3 stats per level.

He has like a 40% chance of not gaining Str by Level 18 and 40% chance of not gaining Spd by Level 17 so... he's fine in the stat department.

Not like it matters, his bases destroy your other unts' stats. And every single strength up he gets counts for two.

Resolve on his untransformed state helps too in 3-6; he'll gain levels fast and prevent from getting doubled and have the ability to survive better, especially transformed. Besides, who doesn't want Earth support? lol

Lack of Canto shouldn't even be a point with him. Canto is a point for the mounted units which have it, not a point against if you lack it because then it's a point against 70% of the cast. Not like it matters, because if it's a point against your units and a neutral (not praise, not hurt) point for mounts then it's about equal either way.

It can't. I've explained this. Because Volug is going to be ditched at Part 4. Your other units are not.

This depends heavily on the player especially considering the amount of variety you have to choose from in Part IV. Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

But on average you're gaining 3 stats per level.

This logic is uncool, because Volug has 95% growth in HP and 90% growth in luck. So what are you trying to prove? Those are the less important stats for Volug.

This depends heavily on the player especially considering the amount of variety you have to choose from in Part IV.

The whole point of this thread is to discourage the use of Volug.

And also don't forget that Volug will be leveling up very little compared to the others. He'll be too weak to the other enemy units. He'll be VERY outclassed. BExp? He takes as much bexp as like a third tier.

Resolve on his untransformed state helps too in 3-6; he'll gain levels fast and prevent from getting doubled and have the ability to survive better, especially transformed. Besides, who doesn't want Earth support? lol

Hard mode!! Cats are doubling him, maybe even tiger. 1 cat + 1 tiger = death.

Lack of Canto shouldn't even be a point with him. Canto is a point for the mounted units which have it, not a point against if you lack it because then it's a point against 70% of the cast. Not like it matters, because if it's a point against your units and a neutral (not praise, not hurt) point for mounts then it's about equal either way.

It's a point against 70% of the cast, still a disadvantage.

Removed anyway, but it is far from the point of the topic.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

This logic is uncool, because Volug has 95% growth in HP and 90% growth in luck. So what are you trying to prove? Those are the less important stats for Volug.

So huge HP growth is trivial now?

He gets HP and Luck every turn hypothetically, so another stat is also likely to increase. Strength, Skill, Speed, Defense, Resistance are the candidates. And whichever of these does increase ends up increasing by two in real battle terms.

[dondon151]

You are. 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, in all of these you have to charge, for maximum bexp.

And Volug is fucking terrific. Your best unit, Jill support or not.

I explained all of this too. 1-6-1, impossible, Jill is taking down the pegasi. 1-6-2, this is indeed the most likely chapter but it stops now. 1-7, the move difference is 2 and you only have 10 turns. So you have to charge, not enough time to support. 1-8, not there. 1-9, neither. 1-E, move difference again and the turns are very limited. You will be getting a C in an efficient playthrough.

Volug is great if you like charging, and builds a Jill support if you're not. Either way, it helps him. This is precisely the reason why he's high tier.

Now you're exaggerating. If you use him, you're blessed. If you use him too much, you're damned.

Maybe I was exaggerating, but I think I conveyed my point.

...Doesn't change the fact that he has crap growths. I'm not talking about bases, I'm talking about growths. Worse growths, you'll be stuck with your bases for longer. He's not improving very much.

He doesn't need to improve much to be useful in the most crucial part of the game.

Yeah, he does. But I explained why he's not as efficient as your other members - Olivi Grass. I don't want to repeat myself so many times, so please read back.

I think you're overexaggerating the hindrance of being laguz.

Can you at least explain, or copy paste why?

I believe I tried to argue your position in the Sothe vs. Volke topic in the debate forum. You should check there. I don't quite know where Mekkah's debate topic is, but he quotes himself sometimes.

It can't. I've explained this. Because Volug is going to be ditched at Part 4. Your other units are not.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of your DB units can be ditched going into part 4. Also, I'd contend that Volug at base level can still make part 4 (I'm not very familiar with enemy stats, so this might not be true, but it still conveys my point nonetheless), while none of your other beorc units can. He really doesn't even need EXP, and this is a huge point going for him.

That's not what matters.

http://serenesforest.net/fe10/average/volug.html

Averages are what matters.

You have to level 4 times for str, 3 times for skill, 3 times for speed, 7 times for def, many times for Res.

Perhaps you need to interpret statistics a little better. Volug will not need 4 level ups for Str, or 3 level ups for Spd, etc. He has a 25% chance to have 12 Str at level 16. He has a 44% chance to have at least 12 Str at level 17, a 58% chance to have at least 12 Str at level 18, and a 68% chance to have at least 12 Str at level 19 (note that I say at least because he can have more). By level 17, he has slightly lower than a 1-in-2 chance of having at least 12 Str, which is about where I'll deem average.

Edited January 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Hard mode!! Cats are doubling him, maybe even tiger. 1 cat + 1 tiger = death.

In normal mode they don't double him when he has Resolve. In Hard mode I assume they'd barely double him.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of your DB units can be ditched going into part 4. Also, I'd contend that Volug at base level can still make part 4 (I'm not very familiar with enemy stats, so this might not be true), while none of your other beorc units can. He really doesn't even need EXP, and this is a huge point going for him.

He can't above Easy mode. He still gets good EXP from the laguz in 3-6/13, transformed or not. Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

k, that's what I thought. My point that he doesn't need a lot of EXP when compared to the rest of the DB, however, still stands.

[Seph]

So huge HP growth is trivial now?

He gets HP and Luck every turn hypothetically, so another stat is also likely to increase. Strength, Skill, Speed, Defense, Resistance are the candidates. And whichever of these does increase ends up increasing by two in real battle terms.

Every turn?

And what the fuck is this. We're talking about averages here. I don't get anything in this post.

And Volug is fucking terrific. Your best unit, Jill support or not.

What?

1-5 and 1-6-1, okay.

1-6-2, Taury.

1-7, Muarim outclasses him.

1-8, Nailah.

1-F, Nailah and Burger King.

He doesn't need to improve much to be useful in the most crucial part of the game.

Part 4 is still significant. And I explained why he's not so useful in Part 3: Olivi Grass.

I think you're overexaggerating the hindrance of being laguz.

First two turns preparing, then spending once in 2 or 3 turns using an Olivi Grass? Not cool.

Also, no forged weapons etc. No two range. Fail.

Fair enough. It's somewhat valid, I suppose, but kind of fishy >.>

Removed anyway.

I believe I tried to argue your position in the Sothe vs. Volke topic in the debate forum. You should check there. I don't quite know where Mekkah's debate topic is, but he quotes himself sometimes.

I'll check it out.

I saw Mekkah reading this thread but he didn't say anything.

Sothe will be wasting exp in the first few chapters of Part 1, but unlike Volug, he is forced to come to Part 4, so it's not totally wasted.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of your DB units can be ditched going into part 4. Also, I'd contend that Volug at base level can still make part 4 (I'm not very familiar with enemy stats, so this might not be true), while none of your other beorc units can. He really doesn't even need EXP, and this is a huge point going for him.

Generals in part 4 have like 25 AS. So many cavaliers with insane AS. Volug is not doubling or doing major damage to anything. And don't forget Olivi Grass.

Nolan and Zihark perfectly handle these losers. You have Naesala, Skrimir, Sothe and Micaiah too.

Perhaps you need to interpret statistics a little better. Volug will not need 4 level ups for Str, or 3 level ups for Spd, etc. He has a 25% chance to have 12 Str at level 16. He has a 44% chance to have at least 12 Str at level 17, a 58% chance to have at least 12 Str at level 18, and a 68% chance to have at least 12 Str at level 19 (note that I say at least because he can have more). By level 17, he has slightly lower than a 1-in-2 chance of having at least 12 Str, which is about where I'll deem average.

I'm just looking at averages, like anyone debating does. Is there seriously anything wrong with that?

[Lord Raven]

Statistics are more accurate than averages.

I look at the average and if it's 12.5 or above I check to see the % chance of having a stat or the stat above. He has a 42.something% chance of having base strength by level 18 and 58.some percent of getting a strength up.

Every turn?

And what the fuck is this. We're talking about averages here. I don't get anything in this post.

Yes, and on average he gets 3.25 stats per level. (I meant level instead of turn). Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Seph]

Statistics are more accurate than averages.

Then why does every debater in every thread use averages?

[Lord Raven]

Because it's easier Iunno.

[Seph]

Yeah, because it's easier.

And with statistics you don't know the exact stats.

[dondon151]

1-5 and 1-6-1, okay.

1-6-2, Taury.

1-7, Muarim outclasses him.

1-8, Nailah.

1-F, Nailah and Burger King.

You know what I meant. Those guys are "stealing your EXP" as well. Muarim also isn't available for like, the first half of 1-7.

Part 4 is still significant. And I explained why he's not so useful in Part 3: Olivi Grass.

First two turns preparing, then spending once in 2 or 3 turns using an Olivi Grass? Not cool.

The first turn hardly matters; the second turn might be more important. Olivi Grass only requires you to sacrifice a player phase occasionally, which is not when most of the action occurs for a combat unit.

Also, no forged weapons etc. No two range. Fail.

Pretty much true, I suppose. I don't think forged weapons are that important; you can just buy blades/greatlances/poleaxes if you want more MT.

Sothe will be wasting exp in the first few chapters of Part 1, but unlike Volug, he is forced to come to Part 4, so it's not totally wasted.

Whether or not Sothe is required doesn't change the fact that he's not very good in part 4.

Generals in part 4 have like 25 AS. So many cavaliers with insane AS. Volug is not doubling or doing major damage to anything. And don't forget Olivi Grass.

Bring any of your DB units at base level to part 4 and they'll be slaughtered. Volug doesn't need as much EXP.

I'm just looking at averages, like anyone debating does. Is there seriously anything wrong with that?

I don't trust the averages that just add a percentage each level up, because they don't depict average stats accurately, especially near base level. If you go by average stats for every character in the history of FE like that (except for like FE6 Karel), all of them will have base stats one, two, or even three levels past base level. Apologies if I sounded too condescending, though.

Should I continue replying like this, or using a bunch of separate quotes? I just realized that this makes it difficult for others to quote my post.

[Lord Raven]

You never know exact stats with FE anyway. You still have to take its random nature into account even with fixed averages.

[Seph]

You know what I meant. Those guys are "stealing your EXP" as well. Muarim also isn't available for like, the first half of 1-7.

At least they help more.

First half?! You can recruit him on the second/third turn..

How is he the best unit in Part 1. He's good in 1-5, 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, but that's all really.

The first turn hardly matters; the second turn might be more important. Olivi Grass only requires you to sacrifice a player phase occasionally, which is not when most of the action occurs for a combat unit.

The enemies are very close to you in all chapters, except 3-13 (partner units blocking).

3-6 they will be attacking you on the first turn. Same with 3-12.

Volug has to sacrifice many player phases. That's his problem. Without that problem, this thread wouldn't be here.

Pretty much true, I suppose. I don't think forged weapons are that important; you can just buy blades/greatlances/poleaxes if you want more MT.

Jarod leadership, cats, swordmasters etc. too inaccurate.

Whether or not Sothe is required doesn't change the fact that he's not very good in part 4.

But you pretty much have to use him if you don't want to waste a slot, which is inefficient. Nothing you can do about it.

Bring any of your DB units at base level to part 4 and they'll be slaughtered. Volug doesn't need as much EXP.

Your DB units are gaining MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more exp than Volug. So they'll outclass him starting 3-12, 3-6 if you want.

I don't trust the averages that just add a percentage each level up, because they don't depict average stats accurately, especially near base level. If you go by average stats for every character in the history of FE like that (except for like FE6 Karel), all of them will have base stats one, two, or even three levels past base level. Apologies if I sounded too condescending, though.

This is a matter of personal opinion really, don't feel like arguing about this.

But just so you know the stats your normal players will be having the most are the averages or very close to it.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Julius

[dondon151]

At least they help more.

First half?! You can recruit him on the second/third turn..

How is he the best unit in Part 1. He's good in 1-5, 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, but that's all really.

He's better than all except your two broken dudes, Tauroneo, and Muarim. He's also still good in 3-6, and I would even say 3-12.

Muarim appears in an area with low enemy density. He really isn't contributing until turn 4 or 5, which is halfway through the chapter.

The enemies are very close to you in all chapters, except 3-13 (partner units blocking).

3-6 they will be attacking you on the first turn. Same with 3-12.

Volug has to sacrifice many player phases. That's his problem. Without that problem, this thread wouldn't be here.

So "being laguz" automatically relegates him from high tier? "Being laguz" doesn't hurt Ulki/Janaff very much, for example. They're pretty damn high for being less extraordinary than Volug.

Your DB units are gaining MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more exp than Volug. So they'll outclass him starting 3-12, 3-6 if you want.

Take all that EXP, reduce it by some factor, and give it to Volug. Look, now he's outclassing all of your DB beorcs!

This is a matter of personal opinion really, don't feel like arguing about this.

But just so you know the stats your normal players will be having the most are the averages or very close to it.

I'm fine with average stats after like 10 levels, it's just after 1 or 2 levels that I have problems with them.

[Seph]

He's better than all except your two broken dudes, Tauroneo, and Muarim. He's also still good in 3-6, and I would even say 3-12.

Muarim appears in an area with low enemy density. He really isn't contributing until turn 4 or 5, which is halfway through the chapter.

Don't forget Nailah and Burger King. The whole point of this thread has been to degrade his importance in 3-6 and 3-12.

Muarim has huge move so he can start attacking immediately. He contributes by making the chapter go faster.

So "being laguz" automatically relegates him from high tier? "Being laguz" doesn't hurt Ulki/Janaff very much, for example. They're pretty damn high for being less extraordinary than Volug.

There are different reasons for that though. They can fly, they HAVE LAGUZ STONES, they have Canto, they gain good exp in all their chapters COMPARED to Volug. Volug has none of those, the latter in Part 3 is good, but not as good as others.

Take all that EXP, reduce it by some factor, and give it to Volug. Look, now he's outclassing all of your DB beorcs!

He fails in part 4 though, because of shit growths and stuff. The whole first post explains this.