Tier list!!!

[dondon151]

I dunno, Lyn's mode is kinda short? It doesn't really fit.

Like Mekkah said, units rejoin at 9/0 after a round of Lyn Mode. Erk joining at level 9 instead of 1 helps him a great deal. Florina joining at level 9 instead of 3 helps her a great deal (it actually makes her usable). Kent and Sain joining at level 9 instead of 5 and 4 helps them a great deal.

If you're playing HHM, those extra levels spell the difference between being usable upon joining and being unusable.

[Knife]

I don't understand why Matthew is so high.

[Lord Raven]

Same reasons as HHM minus Silver Card and Lockpick. He has pretty grand supports - both in helping others and helping himself. Lockpicks and stealing can be cool too, but there are more keys in this mode to be used so the Lockpick is less valuable.

[Florete]

I don't understand why Matthew is so high.

I asked the same thing and this is what I got:

I would like to paraphrase Reikken that Silver Card is not what makes Matthew auto-win. Also involved are:

- His A Guy support, which the dude needs really badly, and largely compensates for the fact that Matthew fights less than others.

- His doubled EXP gain, meaning he needs less EXP to grow the same amount of levels.

- His massive availability - most of anyone counting only Hector Mode, tied with Hector (Dorcas wins if you count all Lyn Mode chapters).

- His great performance against the common Brigands in Ch12, Ch13 and Ch13x.

- Him being one of your two only units in Ch11.

- The stuff he steals/picks you before Legault arrives, which he gets full credit for. From the top of my head, this includes Silver Axe, Mend, Guiding Ring, Hero Crest, Knight Crest, Unlock Staff, some Pure Waters and a Brave Bow. That's right, thanks to him, half your cast is able to promote in a reasonable timeframe. And even after Legault arrives, he still technically gets about half the credit for it. Perhaps even more than that if you decide to bring Legault to the fray for his EXP gain. Think of Brave Axe, 10000G, Hero Crest (Oleg)...

- Rapes Fog of War in 13x and 19 as well as other later chapters such as 21, 23 and 24 (Lloyd), especially with a Torch use.

[Knife]

Okay, but what about Guy? The only things he has going for him are Swords (which start to deteriorate near endgame), a Killing Edge, and HM bonus.

[Lord Raven]

Massive Avoid, Matthew support for amazing critical, amazing AS, and amazing offense in general. In NM he loses that HM boost anyway...

[Knife]

I wonder why a lot of people think he sucks.

[Lord Raven]

People think Guy sucks?

[Mekkah]

They do because they think he has low Str (omg 30% growth) and "relies on crits".

Then go and post in another topic how much they loooove Lyn since she dodges and criticals everything.

[riariadne]

Guy is probably the most accurate non-Marcus unit you have when he joins, and 30% strength growth is enough to get by. He doesn't 'rely on critical hits,' he just gets them often, which doesn't hurt him in any way. Getting critical hits> not getting critical hits.

@Mekkah: People probably like Lyn more just because she's a girl. No offense anyone.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Captain Gordin

[Rodykitty]

Heck, Guy even has more Def and HP than Lyn if she doesn't get the Angelic Robe.

I was always under the impression that people thought Guy sucked because they keep comparing him to Raven.

[riariadne]

Heck, Guy even has more Def and HP than Lyn if she doesn't get the Angelic Robe.

I was always under the impression that people thought Guy sucked because they keep comparing him to Raven.

You've got a good point there about Raven, though.

[Mekkah]

Heck, Guy even has more Def and HP than Lyn if she doesn't get the Angelic Robe.

HHM Guy has more everysinglething than Lyn when both are at 10/0. All Lyn gets over Guy ever is bows and a couple of points of res, and maybe some other insignificant stat I forgot, like more CEV or something. Guy leads in everything else.

[Rodykitty]

HHM Guy has more everysinglething than Lyn when both are at 10/0. All Lyn gets over Guy ever is bows and a couple of points of res, and maybe some other insignificant stat I forgot, like more CEV or something. Guy leads in everything else.

Hahah, yeah. Lyn only has 3-4 lead in said insignificant stat (Luck). Guy completely outclasses Lyn in every way. Even his Killing Edge is a decent weapon, as it's practically a Steel Sword with less weight.

So much for the "Lords are stronger than normal units!" thing people have in their minds.

[dondon151]

I have a few opinions as I'm almost done with my HHM run, I'll just start with one though:

Rebecca is too high on both Mekkah's and Reikken's tier lists. Maybe this is because I'm not considering her mid-game and end-game very much at all, but she is just absolutely atrocious early-game and that plus her constant inability to perform more than an action per turn is more than enough to put her lower, in my opinion.

I'll compare her to Bartre, who has identical availability but is lower than her on the tier list. I don't have gamesaves from before chapter 18, so I can't pull enemy data, but I don't think that's very necessary anyway for me to show my point...

Rebecca 1/-- (Iron Bow): 17 HP, 10 MT, 99 hit, 6 AS, 3 def, 16 avo

Bartre 2/-- (Iron Axe): 29 HP, 17 MT, 89 hit, 3 AS, 4 def, 10 avo

Bartre 2/-- (Hand Axe): 29 HP, 16 MT, 74 hit, 3 AS, 4 def, 10 avo

Taking them at base, Bartre has the outright defensive lead, guaranteeing to take at least 2 rounds of combat against brigands in the joining chapter (and soldiers/armors/cavs in a lot of subsequent chapters) and probably even up to 3 rounds against stuff like PKs, soldiers and archers whereas Rebecca dies in 2 hits to anything. Rebecca's 6 extra avo, while growing at a faster rate than Bartre's 10 avo, doesn't help her durability by any significant margin.

Bartre also has the outright offensive lead, and he has it for a long while. Sure, Bartre is often ridiculed for his speed base being below that of the fighter base, but Rebecca's 3 extra AS doesn't help her at all as she needs around 8 to double Iron Bow archers and around 10-11 to double brigands and fighters, the latter of which she's not getting until around level 8. Against stuff that she can double like soldiers and knights, Bartre's dealing slightly less damage against the former but can actually do something to the latter, whereas Rebecca basically tinks. Bartre also has the option of 1-2 range with Hand Axe if he desires (it kills his hit, but it still has reasonable chances of hitting with WTN or WTA), and though Dorcas and Hector may want a Hand Axe as well, the option of 1-2 range is superior to no option of 1-2 range.

This brings me to my next point of leveling Rebecca up: not only is she disadvantaged by being locked to 2 range (and thus only getting EXP player phase), but she isn't even getting that much EXP on player phase if we're assuming efficient play. Take the scenario where 2 or 3 units, Rebecca being one of them, are needed to defeat an enemy. The player would rather have Rebecca weaken while a melee unit kills to minimize damage taken, healing being something that wants to be minimized. So, instead of Rebecca gaining 30 EXP on kill, she gets 10 EXP only per turn, and this isn't even assuming bias against Rebecca, since we don't want Eliwood or Dorcas or Lowen to take more damage than they need to. Simply put, she grows at a slower rate than everyone else.

Bartre also has one viable support with Dorcas, while Rebecca has no viable supports early-game.

Bartre continues to be better defensively until Rebecca's avo actually becomes reliable. His only defensive shortcoming is that he's doubled fairly consistently by nomads and myrms/mercs, but what would be 2RKOs on him are already 2RKOs on Rebecca. Everything else will not double him. Offensively, once Rebecca begins to double consistently, she wins damage per round, but Bartre still wins damage per turn with the ability to work on enemy phase. Before that, however, Bartre can damage anything that's not a fast swordie while Rebecca's doing like 3-4 damage to cavaliers for a long time and hardly scratching armors.

Rebecca's advantage against PKs counts for very little, seeing as Iron Bow doesn't even come close to 1-shotting early on and she can't double them yet. There's then the problem of being a sitting duck enemy phase. I might be overstating this, but I think enemy phase is especially important when turn requirements are tight because 1 action on enemy phase saves you 1 action on player phase, and player phase actions need to be as efficient as possible.

So, in summary, Rebecca goes lower. I think Bartre's ok where he is, though.

Edited February 10, 2009 by dondon151

[Reikken]

This brings me to my next point of leveling Rebecca up: not only is she disadvantaged by being locked to 2 range (and thus only getting EXP player phase), but she isn't even getting that much EXP on player phase if we're assuming efficient play. Take the scenario where 2 or 3 units, Rebecca being one of them, are needed to defeat an enemy. The player would rather have Rebecca weaken while a melee unit kills to minimize damage taken, healing being something that wants to be minimized. So, instead of Rebecca gaining 30 EXP on kill, she gets 10 EXP only per turn, and this isn't even assuming bias against Rebecca, since we don't want Eliwood or Dorcas or Lowen to take more damage than they need to. Simply put, she grows at a slower rate than everyone else.

This is a point in her favor, not against her. The fact that she's ranged helps minimize damage taken.

O noz, she gains less exp. And others gain more. It's a benefit to the team either way.

It's like.. give Eliwood 1-2 range, and (disregarding 1-2 range counterattacking..pretend it reverts to 1-range on enemy phase) he suddenly becomes worse? -The player would rather have Eliwood weaken to minimize damage, so he gains less exp. Sucks to be him. Drop him a few spaces on the tier list.-

"Bartre also has one viable support with Dorcas, while Rebecca has no viable supports early-game."

Awesome. Bartre gets his oh-so-useful +2 hit, 5 crit, 5 avo after some chapters.

C Fire-Thunder is pretty meh for earlygame. Atk, def, and maybe hit, are the things that matter most then. The rest doesn't matter much at all.

Also, I find ranged+melee easier to keep together, so while Lowen-Rebecca takes more turns, spending more turns together helps make up for it.

Earlygame chapters get rather congested, and it takes mutliple rounds to kill enemies. Space is a valuable commodity. You need to be able to actually attack that enemy. Rebecca brings in additional offense without getting in the way of others attacking. Bartre can use hand axes, but those are in short supply until after ch 13.

That is much better than being able to counterattack on enemy phase, which you wouldn't even want her to be doing anyway. I usually don't want Bartre counterattacking either if I can help it. Player phase, everyone gets one action. Enemy phase, whoever gets attacked gets a potential action.

Not being able to counterattack really doesn't matter at all except ch 14, where it's finally more open. Until then, enemies can't reach because there are too many player units in the way, since she's attacking from behind them. Not so much for Bartre unless he has and is using a hand axe. Bartre would be better (at least earlygame) if that iron axe of his had 2 range instead of 1 range.

Also for defense. It doesn't matter what defensive stats she has unless she's getting attacked.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Geitz above Hector?

Dorcas in lower mid and not lower?

*rubs eyes* Either someone needs to explain this to me, or I'm hallucinating.

[Clonez]

Dorcas's earlygame owns and he OHKO's stuff.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Clonez

[dondon151]

This is a point in her favor, not against her. The fact that she's ranged helps minimize damage taken.

O noz, she gains less exp. And others gain more. It's a benefit to the team either way.

It's like.. give Eliwood 1-2 range, and (disregarding 1-2 range counterattacking..pretend it reverts to 1-range on enemy phase) he suddenly becomes worse? -The player would rather have Eliwood weaken to minimize damage, so he gains less exp. Sucks to be him. Drop him a few spaces on the tier list.-

First point is true, however, using her that way makes her utility dwindle very quickly, while using her in a way that supports her utility for more chapters hurts the rest of the team, so overall it's bad for Rebecca. Saying that it "benefits the team" when Rebecca isn't gaining as much EXP sounds like a poor excuse to support a low tier character. I can say that not using Bartre "benefits the team" because the EXP he doesn't get goes to units that are better than him. Heck, the tier list would be trash if not using a low tier so that a high tier could be used in his stead is considered a point for the low tier.

The difference between theoretical Eliwood and Rebecca is that Rebecca is locked to 2 range while theoretical Eliwood can still attack from 1 range and utilize WTA in his favor when doing so. Point is, Rebecca pretty much always plays in a way that reduces her EXP gain while everyone else doesn't.

Awesome. Bartre gets his oh-so-useful +2 hit, 5 crit, 5 avo after some chapters.

C Fire-Thunder is pretty meh for earlygame. Atk, def, and maybe hit, are the things that matter most then. The rest doesn't matter much at all.

Also, I find ranged+melee easier to keep together, so while Lowen-Rebecca takes more turns, spending more turns together helps make up for it.

A C support is better than no support, no matter how small it is, so I agree that the support is kind of lame but it's a small point regardless. Dorcas is also OK earlygame without LM.

BartrexDorcas takes 22 turns to get to C; RebeccaxLowen takes 38 turns. Aside from that fact that 38 turns adjacent to each other takes an impossibly long time (for reference, I never got EliwoodxLowen C even though both were used fairly often), Rebecca needs units dedicated to protecting her if she should even be adjacent to Lowen. This isn't good for her. As the chapters progress, Lowen finds that his growing durability allows him to make more use of his 7 move and Rebecca gets even less opportunities to be next to her mop-haired knight in shining armor.

Earlygame chapters get rather congested, and it takes mutliple rounds to kill enemies. Space is a valuable commodity. You need to be able to actually attack that enemy. Rebecca brings in additional offense without getting in the way of others attacking. Bartre can use hand axes, but those are in short supply until after ch 13.

You get like 25 uses of Hand Axe on player phase. 1-2 range frankly isn't THAT important early-game where magic units are absent, so it's not getting used up very quickly. A small point for Rebecca, nonetheless.

That is much better than being able to counterattack on enemy phase, which you wouldn't even want her to be doing anyway. I usually don't want Bartre counterattacking either if I can help it. Player phase, everyone gets one action. Enemy phase, whoever gets attacked gets a potential action.

Why don't you want Bartre counterattacking? He does the most damage per hit of any of your units (OK, not Oswin or Marcus), no one can double yet, and his accuracy isn't shockingly bad unless he faces WTD or terrain disadvantage. Sure, his durability is only average even with that massive HP, but he takes away chunks of HP on counterattack, which is more than what non-Rapier Eliwood or Lowen can do.

Not being able to counterattack really doesn't matter at all except ch 14, where it's finally more open. Until then, enemies can't reach because there are too many player units in the way, since she's attacking from behind them. Not so much for Bartre unless he has and is using a hand axe. Bartre would be better (at least earlygame) if that iron axe of his had 2 range instead of 1 range.

Chapter 12 Eliwood's group sees little action. Chapter 13 enemies CAN reach Rebecca, and I'd also like to point out that there are also a plethora of other characters who don't want to be ganged up on, but who at least can perform during enemy phase. So between partially blocking the frailer melee units and fully blocking Rebecca and Serra, this requires a lot of effort.

Also for defense. It doesn't matter what defensive stats she has unless she's getting attacked.

And if she gets attacked? Oops, dead Rebecca after 2 rounds. Using Rebecca is more of a hazard to your survival rank than Bartre. Wait, Bartre should be getting attacked while Rebecca shouldn't? OK then, let's just shield Bartre and prevent him from doing anything enemy phase, but he still does more damage to anything not a soldier on player phase because he doesn't have 4 base strength with the second weakest class of physical weapon in the game. Oh yeah, he also doesn't die in 2 rounds of combat should he get hit.

So, play Bartre the same way you play Rebecca and he's still better. Play Bartre to his maximum potential and he's way better.

Theory-play aside, Bartre still has large offensive and defensive leads. And since both characters do ultimately serve only to kill stuff while not being killed, Bartre is better.

Edited February 11, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

Geitz above Hector?

Not my idea. I personally put Hector in Top tier. He has one of the only supports that's ever going to happen in a ranked run (Eliwood), he never takes up a unit slot, he has the best availability in the game, and his earlygame durability is a godsent. He does have issues such as shaky earlygame hit, shaky AS and capping out of 20 though, so maybe he could move down some...but I'd say all this > Geitz.

Dorcas in lower mid and not lower?

Dorcas also has a good earlygame, a good promo situation (highest level out of all Hero Crest ppls), and several ways to fix his offense problems. Not to mention that he has use for the EXP rank by weakening enemies so that others can kill them without even taking a counter.

[grandjackal]

Not my idea. I personally put Hector in Top tier. He has one of the only supports that's ever going to happen in a ranked run (Eliwood), he never takes up a unit slot, he has the best availability in the game, and his earlygame durability is a godsent. He does have issues such as shaky earlygame hit, shaky AS and capping out of 20 though, so maybe he could move down some...but I'd say all this > Geitz.

My question is how the hell he got there anyways. I'm aware he's one of the better prepromotes (he's no Marcus or Pent, but still), just...does he have any good stats? He's like the definition of meh. What supports does he have that are any good? Does he even have good enough attack speed to matter? By the time he shows up, so do units like mercs and myrmidons, and promote enemies start appearing too. I suck at GBA rank runs (only time I can argue a character without being full of shit is in FE3), but I don't think Geitz is helping any...

Dorcas also has a good earlygame, a good promo situation (highest level out of all Hero Crest ppls), and several ways to fix his offense problems. Not to mention that he has use for the EXP rank by weakening enemies so that others can kill them without even taking a counter.

*tries him out for earlygame* ...Holy hell, he is pretty awesome here...

[Mekkah]

Geitz is good for similar reasons as Harken and Pent. He joins, he's good to go, and requires no effort. A Warrior with B in both weapon levels allows him to boost his offense and defense in the same way Dorcas can (Halberd, Hammer, Killer Bow/Axe, Longbow, Brave Bow/Axe), except more effectively since he actually doubles (the only enemies he does not double when he joins are Mercs, and with one or two Spd level-ups (40% growth olol) he doubles those too.

[grandjackal]

Geitz is good for similar reasons as Harken and Pent. He joins, he's good to go, and requires no effort. A Warrior with B in both weapon levels allows him to boost his offense and defense in the same way Dorcas can (Halberd, Hammer, Killer Bow/Axe, Longbow, Brave Bow/Axe), except more effectively since he actually doubles (the only enemies he does not double when he joins are Mercs, and with one or two Spd level-ups (40% growth olol) he doubles those too.

Hmmm...perhaps I underestimate the prepromotes in this game...

Wouldn't Isadora have killer crit and evade thanks to the awesome supports she has and speed? Has no offense, but I'd think she has great defense in avoid...Hell, she could use more expensive weapons thanks to not eating a promotion item.

[Mekkah]

She does, that's why she's in something like Upper Mid for me usually. Her problem is relying quite heavily on Killers to reliable one-round even stuff like Fighters and needing supports + WTA to really have reliable durability (I don't have much faith in supports in an FE7 ranked run, even if they're decently fast).

[grandjackal]

She does, that's why she's in something like Upper Mid for me usually. Her problem is relying quite heavily on Killers to reliable one-round even stuff like Fighters and needing supports + WTA to really have reliable durability (I don't have much faith in supports in an FE7 ranked run, even if they're decently fast).

Yeah, that and she has some good immediate supports in Lowen and Marcus, Harken and Geitz in a bit, all giving evade and some crit. Her start isn't THAT bad either. Just no offense (as you have stated, but even then she's only using swords thanks to her crap con). But yeah, helping Harken and Geitz isn't a bad thing either. Lowen and Marcus wouldn't mind either. Though they'll be full by then...