Dat Nick Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well, that's just Marty for ya, prolly. Anyway...where we we? Dart vs Hawkeye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Well, that's just Marty for ya, prolly.Anyway...where we we? Dart vs Hawkeye? It still mystifies me, the enemy had 1 skill, Marty had like 6 or 7 luck. Even if the enemy bandt somehow had a critical coefficient of 5, he couldn't crit (he doubled Marty, but Marty grows pretty tanky so I THOUGHT it wouldn't be a problem...) Anyways, lemme see if I can't work some magic on it... Hawkeye starts out pretty strong and has a good weapon to go with him. Dart on the other hand starts out rather eh and has shitty equipment to go with his stats (lol, low skill with a hand axe and steel axe). These weapons weigh him down no less. He can't wield steel without running the risk of actually being doubled (thanks to heavy steel axes and meh base speed with low con for an axe user). However, it's not like we can't keep an iron axe for him from earlier to give to him later. So he's rather average to start with the option for range. We can do the same with Hawkeye with a hand axe however. Hawkeye has the advantage of some insane bases, even though his speed is rather poor. No training required and he has a good start. However, it isn't like Dart is being a disadvantage unless you don't give him the hilariously cheap iron axe. He's average at start. He grows pretty well too. Definitely better than Hawkeye does. Thanks to the fact that Dart has one weapon choice only, Hawkeye's weapon rank lead is rather null, as Dart has no problem getting it high in the first place. If we're going by efficient play rather than ranks, Dart's promotion item is no biggy as you get it for free. With all the gems and useless stat-up items like Secret Books and Goddess Icons, money is not a problem. Throw in the silver card and then the argument of the ocean seal being expensive is complete bollocks. What's even better is that he has no competition for it so he can promote whenever the hell he wants. Let's also think of supports, where Dart just flat out teabags Hawkeye. You see, Dart actually has options that aren't limited and don't blow. Dart has Geitz (Dorcas gives the same bonuses but is slower), who's only other realistic option is Isadora (who makes a great support, darkness and lightning rocks. ), and is generally pretty good in his own right. Then Dart has Farina, who's anima rocks with fire as they BOTH appreciate the bonuses (making Dart get the full 3 defense he can possibly get, good crit and offesne boosts along with full evade, factoring in Geitz with it). Farina is a bit late though. Dart's also got Rebecca and Wil, who give him bonuses he'd like though the archers kinda suck in this game. Either way, Dart has the lovable Fire affinity, so people would definitely like to support him anyways. What does Hawkeye have? 3 supports, and all 3 are complete balls. Ninian gives him the worst bonuses possible with supports in game, and she vanishes at some point! Even worse, THAT'S HIS ONLY POSSIBLE A SUPPORT! Then there's Pent, who not only has better options, but this would give the same bonuses Ninian did except it's only B this time! Pent doesn't want. Louise has better options too, but at least she gives decent bonuses to him. 2 attack, 10 crit, 10 hit with some useless crit avoid. Could be better, but what other option does Hawkeye have? Loiuse sadly has better options too, like Rebecca, Heath or Sain (full of people who generally have no better options available anyways). Lets not forget Louise generally sucks. Best bonuses he can get that actually last throughout the game are 3 attack, 20 hit, 15 or something crit, about 6 evasion and 2 defense with supports that don't want him anyways. As far as I'm concerned, Hawkeye's never getting supports ever. Dart's supports are a bit shaky, but they're actually viable options. Then factor in that Dart has been helping a bit for longer time without being a disadvantage to the team and absolutely gangsta stomps Hawkeye later, Hawkeye loses miserably. What does Hawkeye have over him, not needing an item to promote? The ocean seal is expensive in a game where money isn't a problem unless we rank run? Well thank god we get it for FREE, or else this would actually be a problem! Edited February 18, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well thank god we get it for FREE, or else this would actually be a problem! Using it is at the expense of 50,000 funds, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Using it is at the expense of 50,000 funds, though. Someone's missed the conversation that's been going on lately. That whole thing was for...well, Sweet Tooth can explain it better, just wait for him or Chainey. Basically it's the idea that ranks are handicapping more than anything. It's measurable, but very inefficient. With all the sellable stuff in this game with gems, goddess icons and secret books, funds isn't an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Seriously? I could have sworn I had Marty (who had high luck at the time) get critical hit by a 1 skill bandit... One cruel thing about FE5's RNG is that the enemy is guaranteed to have 1 hit on you even if you have more avo than they have hit (you also only have up to 99 hit IIRC). Maybe this applies to critical rates as well, at which point all you can hope for is that scrolls start showing up soon. Basically it's the idea that ranks are handicapping more than anything. It's measurable, but very inefficient. With all the sellable stuff in this game with gems, goddess icons and secret books, funds isn't an issue. Well yeah, basically. Without a funds rank, you are free to spend about 3x as much money as with it, so the impact of costing 50gs for a promotion has decreased by precisely such a factor, perhaps even moreso if you have more money than you can fathom spending at certain points. Edited February 18, 2009 by Vykan12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tino Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 No, I actually read all that, I just thought you were posting with ranks in mind... Don't ask me why I thought that, though >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Also worth considering that Dart's outspeeding Hawkeye by now, for all the good that does him since HHM enemies are gigantic globs of fail anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Also know that Dart keeps on doubling, while Hawkeye slows down considerably. Hawkeye just isn't the shining example of speediness. Dart however, is a meteor coming to crash down and smite any enemy dumb enough to attack him. Hawkeye will be needing to rely on criticals after a while. Speaking of money things, how does Farina fair? She can pretty much solo the mage area of the chapter she joins in thanks to javelins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Interesting fact: Marcus and Hawkeye have the same base Spd and growth. Marcus just has a lower base level and more time to grow his. Anyway, taking a look at Four Fanged Offense, the first chapter where Hawkeye is no longer forced (meaning he has to take up a unit slot that could have gone to someone else): - He can never double Mercs, while Dart can do so after promoting. With Killer or Iron, whichever he prefers. - Hawkeye does double Steel Lance Wyverns (9-10 Spd, and they lose 3 AS). Thankfully for him, that's all of them initially on the field, but a bit later Javelin ones will reinforce, and he won't double those. - Steel Axe Pirates he can do (4 AS lol). Then some with Hand Axes which he may or may not double (9-10-11 Spd for those, and they lose 2 AS, while Hawkeye has 11 AS and may have grown a point of Spd). - Heroes double him, but I guess at least Dart doesn't double them at least. Funnily enough, Linus is like 3-4 points slower...if Dart is 20/2 he is highly likely to double Linus. For Ch25, all Pirates except a few are weighed down by so much that Hawkeye doubles them. Can't touch the Warrior boss (12 Spd) or Pascal (11 Spd). Steel Lance Cavaliers are fodder. Same for Steel Archers and Pegs, and obviously Monks. Skipping to, say, Sands of Time, Hawkeye doubles all but the Snipers and the small swordsman group. That includes the massive amount of Archers/Knights/Generals/Shamans/Druids. Denning will double him. Dart won't double the swordsmen either, but he will double the Snipers. For supports, I'm inclined to say Dart's supports may not be the massive suck of Hawkeye's, but he still has trouble finding a partner. Geitz is 41/81, so that's nothing/C for the majority of the time they're played. Farina x Dart support is one great way to bankrupt yourself, and it's as slow as the Geitz support. This leaves lol Karel (again, equally as slow, but even later) and the two Snipers. Waste of a Fire affinity, I say. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Interesting fact: Marcus and Hawkeye have the same base Spd and growth. Marcus just has a lower base level and more time to grow his.Anyway, taking a look at Four Fanged Offense, the first chapter where Hawkeye is no longer forced (meaning he has to take up a unit slot that could have gone to someone else): - He can never double Mercs, while Dart can do so after promoting. With Killer or Iron, whichever he prefers. - Hawkeye does double Steel Lance Wyverns (9-10 Spd, and they lose 3 AS). Thankfully for him, that's all of them initially on the field, but a bit later Javelin ones will reinforce, and he won't double those. - Steel Axe Pirates he can do (4 AS lol). Then some with Hand Axes which he may or may not double (9-10-11 Spd for those, and they lose 2 AS, while Hawkeye has 11 AS and may have grown a point of Spd). - Heroes double him, but I guess at least Dart doesn't double them at least. Funnily enough, Linus is like 3-4 points slower...if Dart is 20/2 he is highly likely to double Linus. For Ch25, all Pirates except a few are weighed down by so much that Hawkeye doubles them. Can't touch the Warrior boss (12 Spd) or Pascal (11 Spd). Steel Lance Cavaliers are fodder. Same for Steel Archers and Pegs, and obviously Monks. Skipping to, say, Sands of Time, Hawkeye doubles all but the Snipers and the small swordsman group. That includes the massive amount of Archers/Knights/Generals/Shamans/Druids. Denning will double him. Dart won't double the swordsmen either, but he will double the Snipers. For supports, I'm inclined to say Dart's supports may not be the massive suck of Hawkeye's, but he still has trouble finding a partner. Geitz is 41/81, so that's nothing/C for the majority of the time they're played. Farina x Dart support is one great way to bankrupt yourself, and it's as slow as the Geitz support. This leaves lol Karel (again, equally as slow, but even later) and the two Snipers. Waste of a Fire affinity, I say. - Man, the enemy growths make this game bizarre. That's what I meant by shaky with Dart's supports. But still, at least he has viable options. Hawkeye has one support that just vanishes, Pent sure as hell doesn't want him, and Louise sucks and has better options as well. Even then, Dart's C supports are better than anything Hawkeye can pull off in a support. Dart might not have the best chances, but Hawkeye's are complete balls. Besides, he always has Rebecca.....*sees everyone looking down on me, I look away nervously* << >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hawkeye's supports may give worse bonuses, but I'd say they're more likely to happen. Ninian is pretty much guaranteed to be on the field due to being a dancer, and Pent is a low maintenance, high service dude. Of course, besides the extra accuracy on semifast things he won't get much out of it, and for such late supports they're damn annoyingly slow (21 or 27 turns for a C next to both is quite a lot, especially since building a support with a dancer has its own issues). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Pent would MUCH rather B support Erk, though. Far superior bonuses, plus it's faster. Barely any faster, but still faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Oh right, Pent would love the worst bonus possible he could possibly get. Louise is likelynot to be fielded. Ninian? Garunteed, but what does Hawkeye get at an A? 1 attack, 15 hit, like 6 or something avoid and crit, and useless crit avoid. Oh yeah, that support will eventually vanish too. I'm sorry, were you trying to say Hawkeye's supports didn't blow? How could they possibly be more likely to happen? Even the one possible one he has, it barely helps him at all. I also like how you tried to pull off Pent being low maintenance meaning he would want to support with his worst option. Come on, you can do better than that. Wow me here! I suck at this, you should be crushing me here! XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Oh right, Pent would love the worst bonus possible he could possibly get. Louise is likelynot to be fielded. Ninian? Garunteed, but what does Hawkeye get at an A? 1 attack, 15 hit, like 6 or something avoid and crit, and useless crit avoid. Oh yeah, that support will eventually vanish too.I'm sorry, were you trying to say Hawkeye's supports didn't blow? How could they possibly be more likely to happen? Even the one possible one he has, it barely helps him at all. I also like how you tried to pull off Pent being low maintenance meaning he would want to support with his worst option. Come on, you can do better than that. Wow me here! I suck at this, you should be crushing me here! XD Louise's chances of being fielded are increased with her A support conferring 1 atk and 3 def to both herself and Pent, as well as being low maintenance (i.e. prepromote) with offense that's not total crap. HawkeyexNinian, even if the bonuses suck, will still happen, unlike most of Dart's supports (41 turns just takes too long, period, and the archers have very poor chances of being fielded). A support that confers crappy bonuses is more advantageous than the absence of a support. Also, the bonuses received while Ninian is still in the party (all but 5 endgame chapters, 1 of which doesn't want a dancer fielded and 1 which is way too short) still exist whether you want to discredit them by saying that Eliwood kills off Ninian... Pent, Louise, and Hawkeye make a fast support triangle, for whatever that's worth. Erk makes the same triangle, but uh... Hawkeye's support with Louise is faster? >.> Edited February 19, 2009 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 And Erk's support with Pent is a trillion times better? Leave Louise out of it anyway, she's not going to be used all that often so there's no way she screws Pent out of his best support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Let's not forget that the Ninian support won't magically put him ahead of Dart. The bonuses he gets are terrible. Then that shitty support VANISHES! Explain to me how a single A with terrible bonuses is helping Hawkeye beat out Dart who grows into awesomeness with a C from any of his possible supports? All Hawkeye gets is woop-dee-doo hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Let's not forget that the Ninian support won't magically put him ahead of Dart. The bonuses he gets are terrible. Then that shitty support VANISHES! Explain to me how a single A with terrible bonuses is helping Hawkeye beat out Dart who grows into awesomeness with a C from any of his possible supports? All Hawkeye gets is woop-dee-doo hit. Explain to me where you got the notion that Hawkeye's supports automatically make him better than Dart? And again, it doesn't matter if the support disappears 5 chapter from the end because he's still getting that support when it's available. there's no way she screws Pent out of his best support. She does not, I never said she did. Don't put words in my mouth. Edited February 19, 2009 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Explain to me where you got the notion that Hawkeye's supports automatically make him better than Dart? And again, it doesn't matter if the support disappears 5 chapter from the end because he's still getting that support when it's available. ...Then why the hell are we arguing? He gets it yeah, but you said it doesn't help him get better than Dart, the current subject of the topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Dart joins in 19, Hawkeye joins in 23. So Dart has 4 levels to level up before Hawkeye joins, 5-6 when considering gaidens. Considering he joins at level 8 but with 12 str, 8 spd and axes, he will both level fast and shouldn’t have too much trouble killing enemies. Another thing is if Rebecca is in play, their C support only takes 16 turns, so Dart could have that when Hawkeye joins. Assuming maybe 1.4 levels per chapter, that would put Dart at lv 16/0, give or take a few. Dart lv 16/0 (C Rebecca): 40 hp, 18 str, 10 crit, 13 spd, 8 def, 2 res, 37 avo, 6 cev, 10 con Hawkeye lv --/4: 50 hp, 18 str, 22 crit 11 spd, 14 def, 10 res, 35 avo, 13 cev, 16 con All I’ve got to say is Dart is losing decisively here. On offence, they tie in attack, so it’s basically 12 crit vs 2 AS, but hawkeye also has a huge 6 con lead, meaning if both are using steel axes, then Hawkeye is actually faster, for what that’s worth. I can see Dart’s spd advantage as being significant, but I wouldn’t be able to know for sure without some enemy samples. Then again, before I forget to mention it, Hawkeye wins hit by more than 10 points if C Rebecca doesn’t happen, so Hawkeye is in all likelihood winning offence by a bit. But the dagger comes in the durability comparison. Hawkeye has a whopping 10 hp, 6 def, 8 res and 7 crit evade lead on Dart. All Dart has to match that is… 2 avo. I could easily see Hawkeye being able to take twice as many hits as Dart based on these leads, especially if the enemies have a hard time breaking 20 att. Skipping along to Dart’s promotion: Dart lv 20/1 (B Rebecca): 46 hp, 22 str, 30 crit, 16 spd, 10 def, 5 res, 49 avo, 7 cev, 13 con Hawkeye lv --/7: 52 hp, 19 str, 22 crit, 12 spd, 15 def, 11 res, 38 avo, 14 cev, 16 con Now Dart is clearly winning offence. How much such a lead will matter I’ll leave Mekkah to determine. On the durability end, Hawk’s leads have decreased to 6 hp, 5 def, 6 res and 7 crit eva. Well tbh, Dart is still getting h3xed by Hawkeye in this department, and the only thing he has going for him is that 11 avo lead (which falls to 1 if Rebecca’s not used), and what’s worse is I’m pretty sure 49 avo is not generally too reliable. So, imo Hawkeye is still winning. Just to prove a point, let’s jump way into the future. Dart lv 20/10 (A Rebecca): 53 hp, 29 str, 37 crit, 22 spd, 12 def, 6 res, 69 avo, 10 cev, 13 con Hawkeye lv 20/12: 54 hp, 21 str, 23 crit, 13 spd, 16 def, 13 res, 42 avo, 16 cev, 16 con At this point, Dart’s offensive leads are wtfhuge. 8 att, 9 spd and 14 crit leads are nothing to ignore, but these are slightly mitigated if Hawkeye is fully supported now. Moreover, Hawkeye has 73% crit per hit with a killer axe, so it’s not as though he cannot kill anything. Tbh I think most of Dart’s leads are overkill, which just means his killing reliability is asymptotically close to 100% whereas Hawkeye isn’t quite so reliable, particularly if he’s not doubling anything (which I doubt, considering Marcus is somehow doubling things, and has less con). And, no matter how hard he tries, Dart never seems to win durability. He’s still losing everywhere he was before (1 hp, 4 def, 7 res and 6 crit evade), which at least at this point is debatable against 27 avoid. As far as I can tell, Hawkeye is definitely better. First of all, if neither is supported (which is quite likely), then Hawkeye wins indisputably. The closest Dart ever gets to beating Hawkeye’s durability was outlined in the above comparison, but without Rebecca he loses 15 avo, so now it’s 1 hp, 4 def, 7 res and 6 crit evade vs 12 avo, at which point the choice seems obvious to me. So I think it’s well established Hawkeye wins durability forever, and Dart is only really winning offence reliably about half the time. Considering the proof of how badly HHM enemies fail, it seems really, really obvious to me who is superior. Edit: Oh, and Hawkeye wins hit rate forever if Becky doesn't support Dart, and by margins of ~7-15 the entire time they're mutually available. If Dart has any trouble hitting things, then that just makes offence more arguable than it currently is. Also, Dart is 50g more expensive than Hawkeye in funds, which just adds to the list of things going in favor of the shirtless 'zerker. Edited February 19, 2009 by Vykan12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Now this is thorough... But all this considered, are his durability leads really that important? Is Dart really in danger of dying so often? Dart's not exactly made out of paper. Dart's also been a rather null aid person up until promotion, and he's been around longer being of some aid. If anything, Hawkeye's durability leads are the things that are overkill. But, they are in my opinion rather equal...They do the same job, just differently. Hawkeye tanks, but might not kill sometimes. Dart's not quite as durable, but it isn't like he's getting killed by everything. He manages to kill things, and can actually put up a fight against some bosses. Why do with killer what you can do with Iron? I easily see Hawkeye better at jointime with those stats. But what of enemy stats? I'd be more convinced with enemy stats of later times. Obviously, I'm not great at debating, so think this more questions that you could answer better than I so when people read it over, they have a more in-depth idea of what makes the other better and why, mkay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Dart joins in 19, Hawkeye joins in 23. So Dart has 4 levels to level up before Hawkeye joins, 5-6 when considering gaidens. Considering he joins at level 8 but with 12 str, 8 spd and axes, he will both level fast and shouldn’t have too much trouble killing enemies. Another thing is if Rebecca is in play, their C support only takes 16 turns, so Dart could have that when Hawkeye joins. Dart's doubling like PKs and Steel Axe pirates on his joining chapter and pretty much nothing else. On ch19x, he doesn't 1-round knights because either he doesn't do enough damage with Iron Axe or he doesn't have enough AS to double with Steel or Hammer. He also won't double the mages, who have 6-7 AS, and the PKs with Axereavers are just bad for him. On ch20, he won't have enough AS to double the cavs and he can't 1-shot them. His offense isn't that good; his base AS is merely passable (though not a whole lot are 1-rounding at this point) and I think 1.4 levels per map is too liberal an estimate. Maybe like 14/-- or 15/-- by Hawkeye's join time. Which means that he's pretty much losing to Hawkeye in almost every respect. Skipping along to Dart’s promotion:Dart lv 20/1 (B Rebecca): 46 hp, 22 str, 30 crit, 16 spd, 10 def, 5 res, 49 avo, 7 cev, 13 con Hawkeye lv --/7: 52 hp, 19 str, 22 crit, 12 spd, 15 def, 11 res, 38 avo, 14 cev, 16 con Now Dart is clearly winning offence. How much such a lead will matter I’ll leave Mekkah to determine. On the durability end, Hawk’s leads have decreased to 6 hp, 5 def, 6 res and 7 crit eva. Well tbh, Dart is still getting h3xed by Hawkeye in this department, and the only thing he has going for him is that 11 avo lead (which falls to 1 if Rebecca’s not used), and what’s worse is I’m pretty sure 49 avo is not too generally too reliable. So, imo Hawkeye is still winning. If this is happening at around ch26, Dart's AS lead actually matters because not all WKs in this map are weighed down by Steel Lances and doubled by Hawkeye (10 AS Iron Lance, 7 AS Steel Lance). So, Dart's doing a lot more damage. If either decides to go south, Hawkeye also doesn't double the Steel Bow nomads (9-10 AS). Taking the durability comparison in perspective, Iron Lance WKs have 21 atk on average and will be 5RKO'ing Dart. The scenario where Dart actually dies is already somewhat of a stretch, which is compounded by the fact that displayed hit rates against Dart are ~35 for Iron Lance WKs and ~25 for Steel Lance WKs. When Dart faces WTA, Hawkeye's durability lead means little. Of course, this is only 1 chapter. But really, in ch27 the swordies do 9 damage per swipe against Dart (18 atk + WTA), the WKs do 13 damage with ~25 displayed hit... Then in ch28, where there might be mobs of promoted and magic enemies, Hawkeye's durability is a great asset, but for the most part Dart's huge HP and modest defense means he's not being threatened much by melee enemies. Magic users are more significant, but they're only common on ch29. And here, though Dart takes more damage per hit, Hawkeye's being doubled by those valks. As for offense, Vykan mentioned that Hawkeye can tote around a Killer Axe for handy 1HKOs 73% of the time. This is assuming Hawkeye does not double; if Hawkeye doubles, either frailer enemies are 1RKO'd anyway or durable enemies are 1RKO'd 93% of the time with Killer Axe or 68% of the time with Iron Axe. If funds is not considered, weapon choice is a non-issue. Anyway I'm not going to bother breaking down the rest of Vykan's post (it would take too long and it would add little), but Hawkeye vs. Dart is essentially defense vs. offense, where Dart's durability disadvantage is marginal most of the time and Hawkeye's offensive disadvantage can be made up with better weapon selection. Looking at very late chapters like ch31 and ch32, Hawkeye has no trouble doubling almost everything on the map in ch31 save for a couple of Silver Bow snipers and maybe some WL reinforcements but he struggles in ch32, where Dart's outstanding AS lets him double everything. So, I suppose Hawkeye handily beats Dart until Dart promotes, and then it's offense vs. defense until very late in the game where Dart ekes out a win. Also, Hawkeye gets his own custom berserker sprite. But, they are in my opinion rather equal...They do the same job, just differently. Hawkeye tanks, but might not kill sometimes. Dart's not quite as durable, but it isn't like he's getting killed by everything. He manages to kill things, and can actually put up a fight against some bosses. Why do with killer what you can do with Iron? Their jobs are to kill and not die. Edited February 19, 2009 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikken Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Well tbh, Dart is still getting h3xed by Hawkeye in this department, and the only thing he has going for him is that 11 avo lead (which falls to 1 if Rebecca’s not used), and what’s worse is I’m pretty sure 49 avo is not too generally too reliable. So, imo Hawkeye is still winning. Actually... 49 avo faces 12% real against those 88 hit steel lances that are so common. Steel axes and the like aren't much better. Hawkeye does win defense, though, of course, because some things have like 18 atk or something fail like that. Hawkeye is pretty much invincible, while Dart just has decently good durability. Dart doubles things that Hawkeye doesn't, like mercs and nomads and wyvern lords and paladins and sages, and Hawkeye gets doubled by NTs. And, no matter how hard tries, Dart never seems to win durability. He’s still losing everywhere he was before (1 hp, 4 def, 7 res and 6 crit evade), which at least at this point is debatable against 27 avoid. No way. 69 avoid is actually good. Looking at Sands of Time, assuming generals have 85/95 hit with an axe/lance (it's generally lower; this is on the high end, sadly), they have 5/3% real hit on him (37/29% on Hawkeye). 92-hit Nosferatu Druids/Longbow Snipers have 11% real (50% on H). Even the silver bow snipers have 23% real on him (70% on H). 27 avoid is huge. That pwns those fail concrete leads. Earlygame aside, avoid is worth much more than you seem to think it is. FE7's enemies suck at hitting. Moreover, Hawkeye has 73% crit per hit with a killer axe, so it’s not as though he cannot kill anything. ...73 crit? Where did the extra 15 come from? You mean 58 crit. (which I doubt, considering Marcus is somehow doubling things, and has less con). Marcus doesn't double with AS loss. Also, Marcus has more spd. Yeah, Hawkeye does double things, but he fails to double a lot, and he's certainly not doubling those silver weapon enemies that actually have some semblance of offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitloop Multipuck Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Using Marcus later on intrigues me, I hadn't thought he was viable so late in the game. Anyone have HHM enemy stats for Battle Before Dawn, Night of Farewells, or Cog of Destiny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) I tried my hand at an HHM unranked list, whipped up pretty quickly. -Top- Marcus Ninian/Nils Raven Guy Hector -High- Erk Serra Priscilla Matthew Sain Lowen Kent Oswin Eliwood Pent Harken -Mid- Geitz Legault Lucius Florina Lyn Dorcas Canas Dart Isadora Fiora Hawkeye -Low- Karel Jaffar Bartre Rebecca Rath Heath Louise Farina Vaida Wil -Bottom- Karla Renault Wallace Nino Edited February 22, 2009 by Mekkah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 For enemy samples, I'm too lazy to clear the fog in Battle Before Dawn, and Vincent compiled Cog of Destiny before, so here's some Night of Farewells for you. All unpromoted enemies are L14, with the exception of a few L6 Mages. Promoted enemies are L8 unless otherwise noted. All enemies have 0 luk. Class - x con Weapon: hp/str/skl/spd/def/res Archer - 7 con Steel Bow: 31/11/10/8/5/3 30/10/10/9/5/3 32/10/11/10/4/3 31/10/10/9/6/3 Longbow: 32/11/9/8/6/3 29/11/10/8/6/3 Sniper - 8 con Steel Bow: 39/16/14/11/9/8 Silver Bow: 40/15/15/11/8/8 Mercenary - 9 con Poison Sword: 33/11/15/14/8/4 32/12/14/14/8/4 33/11/16/13/7/3 Hero - 10 con Light Brand (+ Blue Gem): 44/15/18/16/14/8 Mage (L6) - 6 con Bolting/Elfire 22/7/6/5/4/5 21/6/6/6/3/7 22/7/6/7/4/6 Sage (L14) - 7 con Elfire/Silence 36/21/15/13/8/20 Pegasus Knight - 5 con Javelin: 25/10/13/12/6/9 26/10/12/13/5/8 25/10/13/13/6/8 26/11/11/12/6/8 Falcoknight - 6 con Steel Lance: 40/15/18/16/9/13 Cavalier - 9 con Poison Lance/Antitoxin: 33/11/9/10/8/3 Paladin - 11 con Silver Lance: 43/15/14/12/11/9 Wyvern Rider - 10 con Steel Lance: 35/15/10/11/12/3 35/15/8/10/12/3 34/15/8/10/13/3 33/15/9/10/13/3 35/16/9/10/12/2 35/15/9/11/12/3 34/16/9/11/13/3 33/15/9/11/13/3 34/15/9/10/12/2 35/15/9/10/13/3 Wyvern Lord - 11 con Silver Lance: 49/22/13/13/16/6 47/21/14/14/16/5 Pirate - 10 con Swordreaver: 33/14/7/10/5/3 Swordslayer: 35/13/9/10/4/2 Hand Axe: 34/13/7/10/6/3 Bishop - 7 con Divine/Sleep: 35/15/11/10/6/20 Divine/Berserk/Angelic Robe: 34/15/11/11/6/20 I couldn't really be arsed to pull reinforcements right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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