Tier list!!!

[Dat Nick]

Bottom still seems a bit harsh for Farina in nonranked. Then again, I'm not actually sure how much funds you have on hand in FE7 so I don't really know how much of a deal 20k is.

I also kind of question Hawkeye>Dart since Dart's easily passed him up in AS by now, but whatever.

I also don't really see what makes Marcus so win in nonranked considering that somebody's going to surpass or tie him a lot quicker than the "good" Jeigans, at the very least it can't be a tier gap. Matthew's also lost a lot of his worth so I don't know what he's still doing above Hector. Should at the very least be below Ninian.

And Geitz>Harken? Really now...Yes I know Geitz can double semi-reliably, but is three chapters use really enough to offset Harken winning in everything else not named HP?

Edited February 17, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Vykan12]

I also don't really see what makes Marcus so win in nonranked considering that somebody's going to surpass or tie him a lot quicker than the "good" Jeigans, at the very least it can't be a tier gap.

I discussed this with Mekkah at length. According to him, Marcus is the best unit in the hardest part of the game, earlygame, and he never really falters as the game goes on due to enemy stat progression being so slow. Then, once killer weapons become buyable, he's either on par with your other units offensively or only slightly behind them.

[Reikken]

depends on what the goal is for nonranked. If getting through the game in a low number of turns is one of the primary objectives, then Marcus is probably the best in the game.

I thought Reikken changed his mind on Dart being that low...Renault above him is one weird decision.

Indeed. List posted is outdated. In more ways than just Dart.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Reikken

[Dat Nick]

and he never really falters as the game goes on due to enemy stat progression being so slow. Then, once killer weapons become buyable, he's either on par with your other units offensively or only slightly behind them.

Very earlygame sure, the game's pretty hard, but for like what, 3 chapters? It gets significantly easier when Raven joins, and before that, Guy's already made things way less of a hassle. Speaking of Raven, his bases aren't that far behind Marcus, and Raven's going to gain a lot of levels pretty quick due to his low starting level and the next chapter being loaded with axemen to raep.

Yeah HHM enemies fail, but can they possibly fail THAT hard? They need to fail hard enough to not have 7 spd, and with Marcus's 25% spd growth and slow EXP gain, he's not exactly going to gain AS very fast.

If the reason for his offense becoming on par with other units is because of crits...then no. Killers are buyable at like C20, at which he's going to double a lot less than he used to. Not only does that mean he kills less, he crits less. We're looking at about 30% or so chance to kill, factoring in enemy luck when the rest of the army has 100% or slightly less chance to kill? How is that even close to on par with your other units in offense?

Unless, of course, he actually is still doubling by then....if he is wow HHM enemies fail.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

The game congratulates you, want a cookie?

The point is that the player aims for the goal that the game sets, not for one that the players set.

Also, 20k for Farina is easily obtained by selling gems and the 10k from the chest in Kinship's Bond.

Edited February 17, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

Of course, that money could just be used for other things, and that 10k from the chest is actually 20k worth of items spent on anything but recruiting Farina. If you want an accurate rating for Farina, I'd suggest starting with her performance while ignoring her recruitment problems for a moment.

For Marcus, he's not just high up there because "the game is hard when he is good". More accurately, he's up there because he one-rounds and takes on like 7 enemies at once while having 8 move and 1-2 range during a time where you have one unit with 7 move (who can take about 2-3 enemies at once, 3-rounds most of the time and his 1-2 range only makes that significantly worse), and then you have some other people who can take that much who have 5 move, and one dude who can probably take the same amount but with 4 move, and those peoples 2-round at best. And then there's some pussies that die quicker and/or do less damage (Rebecca, Eliwood, Erk).

For Marcus starting to phail, think again. Let's take the Dragon's Gate, last chapter before killers become available. I'll stick to his offense for now.

Base Marcus has 11 AS, 10 with Hand Axe, and 15 Str.

Iron Axe or Steel Sword: 23 atk

Iron Lance or Hand Axe: 22 atk

Javelin: 21 atk

I'll take the strongest enemies I can find unless otherwise noted.

Knight: 29 hp/13 def/2 AS: Iron/Hand Axe Axe 2RKOs, but the Hammer ORKOs.

Mage: 21 hp/3 def/7 AS: ORKO with anything that doesn't weigh him down, including Javelin

Cavalier: 29 hp/8 def/8 AS: Marcus fails to double, so he'll need a Spd level-up. 58% chance of having enough Speed at L4, 68% at L5, 76% at L6. If Marcus doubles, he ORKOs with Iron Axe with his base Str.

Nomad: 24 hp/6 def/10 AS: Marcus obviously cannot double these. Well, there's one with Steel Bow who has 9 AS, so he might have a shot at those.

Shaman: 26 hp/5 def/0 AS: Like a worse Mage. This is the only L15 Shaman, the others are L7 and carry Flux, but this one uses Nosferatu. Which, by the way, does 14 damage, so if it hits he may fail the ORKO.

Myrmidon: 25 hp/3 def/14 AS: Marcus 2RKOs, unless he busts out his Silver Lance to OHKO.

Archer: 26 hp/5 def/7 AS: Easy ORKO.

Then there's Cameron, who has too much Spd for him to double, but he can 2RKO him with Silver Lance or Horseslayer if needed, everything else seems to be a 3RKO. And Darin, who he can use Hammer against (37 atk, sadly weighs too much to double), and he 2RKOs him if Darin attacks first (otherwise he throne heals).

Then killers become available. Those are basically 50/50 chances to kill on their own, and then you can add optional S-rank 5% bonus and Marcus' Skl (which is actually decent: 15 base, 50% growth), and maybe a Lowen support.

Looking further into the game, enemies have started weighing themselves down, and not growing enough to make up for it. For example, Pale Flower of Darkness [Jerme] has L12 Cavs and other unpromoted enemies of around that level, which have roughly 9 AS. The only enemies he might not double on that map are Myrmidons (which he can likely OHKO with Silver if he still has it), Nomad Troopers, and perhaps Wyvern Lords (initial one has 11 AS, so Marcus would have to be L17 to double him).

[dondon151]

Of course, that money could just be used for other things, and that 10k from the chest is actually 20k worth of items spent on anything but recruiting Farina. If you want an accurate rating for Farina, I'd suggest starting with her performance while ignoring her recruitment problems for a moment.

If you're going to sell your gems and not care about funds rank, 20k for Farina hardly matters as there will be plenty left over for good stuff until 31x where the game piles on you more money than you need.

Your Marcus analysis is pretty much spot-on. Starting from Kinship's Bond where every enemy has a reaver weapon to almost every chapter onwards except for Unfulfilled Heart, enemies like wielding steel weapons that reduce AS anywhere from 1 (mercs) to 3 (WKs), even more for fighters and myrms. Hector, who is stuck with 12 AS at 20/-- for a portion of the game, doesn't have doubling trouble until after Unfulfilled Heart, so Marcus likely won't either.

[Dat Nick]

Goodness. I knew HHM enemies failed but....damn. Just god DAMN.

[Reikken]

srsly

That's one of the reasons I don't like this game as much as others. Instead of having decent enemies, they just throw tons of them at you. They're more annoying than dangerous.

[dondon151]

Well, enemies don't have to be decent to kill your units.

[Reikken]

They do. Hordes of n00bs with 20-24 atk and 88 hit (aka steel lance cavs or WRs) are never going to kill that 20/2 Raven (A Lucius) or whatever. Even ditch the Lucius completely, and it's the same. Throw a few silver sword heroes and/or elfire valks at him instead, however...

Also, I need to actually finish a ranking run some time. (or any run at all. haven't been to the final chapter in years) I always get bored of it partway through... >_> Or something else comes up, and then I forget about it, etc.

Maybe now is a good time.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Reikken

[dondon151]

They do. Hordes of n00bs with 20-24 atk and 88 hit (aka steel lance cavs or WRs) are never going to kill that 20/2 Raven (A Lucius) or whatever.

True, but what about the not-top-tier members of the cast? If anyone else dies, it's still a star off the survival rank.

FE5's enemies aren't particularly tough parameter-wise, but they're still capable of killing off one of your units.

[Reikken]

I'm not going to be throwing Lucius out where he can be attacked by several enemies. Almost everyone else is fine. Raven, Lowen, Eliwood, Kent, Sain, Marcus, Hector, etc. etc. Even Dorcas (with one A support or some equivalent) with his 10 spd faces 14% real hit rates for like 9 damage to his near 50 hp.

never played FE5. No comment there

[grandjackal]

never played FE5. No comment there

Reason they can kill easy despite suck stats is because as stated, there are a lot of them. HOWEVER, they are also well equipped. You have to deal with armies that have actual authority behind them so they can actually hit you. Ballistaes are annoying as fuck. Then there's the 1 RN system making dodge near unreliable (at least not as reliable as dodge from the GBA games).

[Reikken]

I guess supports have something to do with it as well?

[Dat Nick]

unless, of course, you're Shiva and have a damn good chance of Soling back your health

[grandjackal]

I guess supports have something to do with it as well?

Supports are like bond supports (as you probably know, there's nothing like animaXanima or EarthxEarth), they're more for crit rather than the avoid (as at best it's just a measly 10 more). They're already there and they can't build.

Oh! Unless your character is holding a scroll, your character always has a chance to be critical hit by the enemy. There's that annoying little thing too.

The fiery clown has a point though, it's hard if you're trying to rank it. A bit annoying otherwise. There's PLENTY of powerhouse characters. Shiva is nuts.

There's Shiva, Othin, Halvan, Fin, Brighton, Saphy, and I think I'm forgetting others. Dean?

Edited February 18, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dat Nick]

Saphy is only considered as h4x as she is because of easy Warp Staff use. It's not much of a deal otherwise since you could easily abuse any staff user to A staves by arenaing Shiva.

...Yeah it eats up your turncount and allows arena abuse, but we're talking just an easy completion of FE5 rather than a quick one. Plus it earns tons of money and money is hard to come by in FE5 so it does quite a lot.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

Saphy is only considered as h4x as she is because of easy Warp Staff use. It's not much of a deal otherwise since you could easily abuse any staff user to A staves by arenaing Shiva.

...Yeah it eats up your turncount and allows arena abuse, but we're talking just an easy completion of FE5 rather than a quick one. Plus it earns tons of money and money is hard to come by in FE5 so it does quite a lot.

Did the repair staff suddenly vanish from the game?

[Dat Nick]

No, but you can just have her sit in the convoy the entire game and she's still able to use it.

I do it with Lena all the time.

[Lord Raven]

your character always has a chance to be critical hit by the enemy. There's that annoying little thing too.

If your luck is low. You always have a chance to be hit, and you always have a chance to miss if that's what you're trying to say.

[Vykan12]

Even if a certain character's luck is low, chances are they have a supporter who gives crit evade. Plus, some of the tankier characters in the game can absorb a critical, especially if it's eg/ a slim lance peg.

[grandjackal]

Seriously? I could have sworn I had Marty (who had high luck at the time) get critical hit by a 1 skill bandit...

[Dat Nick]

And he didnt have a killer?

[grandjackal]

And he didnt have a killer?

It was chapter 3, enemies were lucky to have anything better than iron.