H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

She absolutely cannot get kills without the triangle attack or without other units weighing themselves down to weaken enemies for her.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But unlike Nino, Est could actually kill the enemies the chapter she appears in. Even in H5, she could take out 1/2 or more of the Cavalier and Paladin HP, and the Horsemen would just be easy pickings for her. There are no ranged bosses or hordes of enemies everywhere on the map waiting to murder her.

It's still babying.

[Lord Raven]

But unlike Nino, Est could actually kill the enemies the chapter she appears in. Even in H5, she could take out 1/2 or more of the Cavalier and Paladin HP, and the Horsemen would just be easy pickings for her. There are no ranged bosses or hordes of enemies everywhere on the map waiting to murder her.

However, unlike Nino Est can't be used to bolster EXP rank in a ranked run. <_<

[thanibomb]

It's still babying.

How? Isn't it the same when you use Gordin or Jagen to weaken enemies in chapter 1 for Marth/Sheeda/Abel/Cain to kill them for EXP? You only need to raise Est up a few levels and she'll be as good as her sisters. EVERY unit needs a little help at first...

[dondon151]

Since when does not 1-rounding enemies suddenly qualify everything else as babying?

[Rodykitty]

You know... I can actually see Abel/Kain/Marth dropping a bit because their performances suck unless you spoon feed them EXP, which becomes a matter of choosing one between them. Oguma comes ready made for the early game, and Barts is also a very ready made character.

Of course, I'm not going to make that change for my list just yet, since it's early game specific, and can be discussed in chapter specific lists being made. It probably won't make them drop very far on the main tier list, but is still something to consider.

*checks back* C1 & 2 seem fine. C3, I don't think the Cavs are w1n tier without EXP favortism.

[thanibomb]

But the problem is that very few characters are made ready. Adding to Ogma and Barst, there is Merric and maybe Caeda (but you still have to baby her). And most prepromotes of course.

Every character aside from the ones listed above need a little babying to be good, and Est is one of them.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Every character aside from the ones listed above need a little babying to be good, and Est is one of them.

Except if by you "need babying," you mean "need extra experience" you're NOT good by tier list standards because anyone could get that experience. Favoritism is a big no-no.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[thanibomb]

Except if by you "need babying," you mean "need extra experience" you're NOT good by tier list standards because anyone could get that experience. Favoritism is a big no-no.

What? Doesn't babying mean the same thing as giving experience?

You don't need to favor Est over your other party members just for her to be good. If you HELP her get a few kills in, she'll become great the chapter she comes in since every kill she gets means a level up for her, anyway.

[Rodykitty]

What? Doesn't babying mean the same thing as giving experience?

Babying refers to having to go out of your way to give a single unit EXP. This does not necessarily mean two units killing one unit, because it's just two non-specified units working together for the goal of efficient chapter clearing, but what it means is that if you're feeding most of the chapter's EXP pool into a single unit, then that is babying.

But the problem is that very few characters are made ready. Adding to Ogma and Barst, there is Merric and maybe Caeda (but you still have to baby her). And most prepromotes of course.

1. Merric is indeed not needing of babying.

2. Caeda doesn't need to be leveled up at all, unless you intend to use her as a Mage. Her utility is putting her so high on the list.

You don't need to favor Est over your other party members just for her to be good. If you HELP her get a few kills in, she'll become great the chapter she comes in since every kill she gets means a level up for her, anyway.

She can get the occasional kill that's weakened, but better for the purpose of clearing the way for other units to get by and have more room to kill more units than for the sake of leveling up her.

And even that task could likely be accomplished by many units.

Also, "a few kills" won't make her great, especially on H5 where she'll get massacred easily even with a few level ups. Her becoming a viable unit is going to be a multi-chapter process, and from here on not every enemy can be killed with the Horse Slayer. By the time she becomes viable, it'll only be a few chapters left in the game, a lot of times being warp skipped anyway.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Chainey

[thanibomb]

Babying refers to having to go out of your way to give a single unit EXP. This does not necessarily mean two units killing one unit, because it's just two non-specified units working together for the goal of efficient chapter clearing, but what it means is that if you're feeding most of the chapter's EXP pool into a single unit, then that is babying.

Oh I see. Well then you still aren't babying Est. By the time you get her you probably have 3-4 of your units already promoted - most likely Merric and the healers. The Sable Order units have high speed and movement, meaning they will massacre your party quickly if you don't stop them, and the bridge is horrible for your non-Pirates and fliers. Est comes as a flier with a Knightkiller, and is able to kill the enemies that your other units have weakened. She's "working together for the goal of efficient chapter clearing", like you said.

1. Merric is indeed not needing of babying.

2. Caeda doesn't need to be leveled up at all, unless you intend to use her as a Mage. Her utility is putting her so high on the list.

She can get the occasional kill that's weakened, but better for the purpose of clearing the way for other units to get by and have more room to kill more units than for the sake of leveling up her.

And even that task could likely be accomplished by many units.

Also, "a few kills" won't make her great, especially on H5 where she'll get massacred easily even with a few level ups. Her becoming a viable unit is going to be a multi-chapter process, and from here on not every enemy can be killed with the Horse Slayer. By the time she becomes viable, it'll only be a few chapters left in the game, a lot of times being warp skipped anyway.

The reinforcements coming from the bottom left corner of the map will automatically rush towards your party. Est and the fliers are the only ones who have enough movement to clear past the bridge in time to stop them. And don't forget that every one of her kills means a level up for her. Give her a few kills (5-6) and she'll get 5-6 level ups; give her more and she'll get more (I don't know if you would call this favoritism). Its not like she's a nuisance that you have to protect . She's contributing to the party by finishing off opponents that the majority of your party would get killed by.

And like I said before, the chapter after that would help her level even more. The mercenaries and mages are just standing around waiting to be killed...

Edited March 2, 2009 by Ronan

[Rodykitty]

Est comes as a flier with a Knightkiller, and is able to kill the enemies that your other units have weakened. She's "working together for the goal of efficient chapter clearing", like you said.

Right. Also remember I got her out of her own tier, but she's not likely to rise from here on.

Also, other units can use the Knightkiller she comes with, not just Est herself.

Est and the fliers are the only ones who have enough movement to clear past the bridge in time to stop them.

Fort blocking also gets her out of her own tier. She has just enough utility to not be a complete failure.

And don't forget that every one of her kills means a level up for her. Give her a few kills (5-6) and she'll get 5-6 level ups; give her more and she'll get more (I don't know if you would call this favoritism).

5-6 level ups is not going to do much because it's so late into the game, and will need more to truly catch up. These are also kills that could go to Catria or Palla instead (and certainly want), so Est has no exclusive rights to these kills.

She's contributing to the party by finishing off opponents that the majority of your party would get killed by.

She's getting killed far more easily than anyone in your party, especially now that characters are promoting and becoming better at surviving, and remember she is not the only character capable of contributing. I could easily bring Jeigan to do this task of horse slayer killing.

The mercenaries and mages are just standing around waiting to be killed...

Woot, one level at best (since Mercs are easily cleared out in a single turn, as are the Mages). Then comes Ch. 20, which is full of Ballista and Brave Weapons, then 21 which is a large map full of Dracoknights she can't Horse slay, then more Dracoknights. Finally, a Mage chapter but at this point it's so close ot the end of the game you'll wonder why you even bothered leveling up Est, 24 her flight comes in handy, but other flight characters will work well, even class swapped characters. Final Chapter, she's just another unit with no particular purpose.

Est just comes too late, and will have an extremely hard time getting level ups past a couple of situations. At best she should promote early.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

She's only taking a few more damage at 20/1 than 20/1 Abel/Cain.

Except she has far less HP and is going to get one rounded by braves.

Also, Palla's speed is a big problem for her in H5. She's getting doubled by a few things. Keeping a less than stellar unit alive just so Est can get some easy kills and still suck=fail

[Rodykitty]

Actually, when I said what I said, I was looking at Dracoknight Est, where her Defense exceeds that of the Paladins to soften the damage taken, but still inferior.

But I only defend her growths in that they don't suck THAT bad. We all know the real problem is that she doesn't get to USE her growths.

[Tino]

This thing is fairly similar to the GameFAQs tier list, right? If so, then GameFAQs should seriously stop making tier list. What a load of fail I spot in this list.

Also, I don't use the names you might use, but I doubt that's going to be much of a problem for you.

Some things I spot immediately are Wolf and Zagaro being way too high. Marich is way too high. Abel and Kain are better than Barts. Oguma is pretty much the best unit in the game, and Rena and Sheeda need to be bumped up seriously. Marth also deserves a good drop. So yeah, my main issues are in the higher tiers.

But also, what the fuck at Jeigan's placement. Way, way too high. Also, Est at bottom? Though she does suck pretty hard, I don't think that warrants the title of "worst units". That title would probably go to Thomas instead, closely followed by Gordon and Mishelan.

There are quite a bit more errors, and I'll actually explain why I have all these issues with this list later, when I have more time (I'm at school now).

[Rodykitty]

This thing is fairly similar to the GameFAQs tier list, right? If so, then GameFAQs should seriously stop making tier list. What a load of fail I spot in this list.

This started from GameFAQs, but has evolved since then on this forum.

There are quite a bit more errors, and I'll actually explain why I have all these issues with this list later, when I have more time (I'm at school now).

Yes, please give explanations. Nothing less capable of changing a tier list than "<x> should rise, <y> should drop". Edited March 3, 2009 by Chainey

[Tino]

Believe me, I will. Though for the Marich and Rena stuff, you can refer to my debate against Levin in the Debates sub-forum as soon as it's finished (and please don't counter any of my points until that debate is finished, because it would give Levin a huge advantage if you do).

Edited March 3, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

Before you explain though:

- Zagaro & Wolf can break H5 to the point of making most of its difficulty non-existant.

- We all need to figure out where to place Marth in comparison to other units. Right now I believe his tier placement is justifiable since he's a whole tier difference from the Social Knights, and comparable to stats to them. I do not think he will drop out of high tier.

- Jagen used to be High tier or whatever, and has multiple uses throughout the early half of the game as well as his early game utility. This is a good spot for him. In fact, I can see him rising up within Upper Mid.

- Sheeda needs to be bumped up? She's high tier already. She has enough short comings to not be top, otherwise she would be.

- Saying that you want Lena needs to be bumped up, all the while in a debate involving defending her tells me that you think you're winning the debate. From what I'm seeing, the debate is a repeat of a lot of discussion that already happened involving Merric vs. Rena.

- Thomas has a join time lead, and a lot better chance to grow and be useful. Est comes much later where she has a much more difficult time catching up. She used to have her own tier before it was proven she could do at least a couple of things.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Chainey

[Tino]

- Saying that you want Lena needs to be bumped up, all the while in a debate involving defending her tells me that you think you're winning the debate.

No, I'm just saying you can refer to that debate to know what my arguments will be already. I don't think I'm winning, I just don't think it's necessary to repost all my arguments when you can simply use a debate as a reference.

Edit: You forgot about Abel, Kain, Barts and Oguma, by the way, who I also mentioned.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Tino

[Rodykitty]

No, I'm just saying you can refer to that debate to know what my arguments will be already. I don't think I'm winning, I just don't think it's necessary to repost all my arguments when you can simply use a debate as a reference.

I won't be raising Lena up then.

Edit: You forgot about Abel, Kain, Barts and Oguma, by the way, who I also mentioned.

Ah yes. Barts is already an incredibly solid unit. It takes Abel & Kain a few levels to catch up to him in speed, and then he becomes Mercenary and becomes epic win for awhile until he needs to start using axes again, which then he'll have gained some speed points.

Due to points I made earlier about all of the Social Knights needing heavy babying to become useful, the fact that Barts comes ready made should be enough to keep him above them.

Ogma is pretty much obsoleted by Barts, but I should raise him anyway due to utility and coming already prepared.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Chainey

[Tino]

I have been thinking about this whole reclassing business, by the way. I mean, shouldn't classes, in this game, be treated just like other resources such as stat boosters? There are plenty of units who want to become a mercenary, for example, but there are only limited mercenary slots available (and this applies to any other class, really). I'd say that unless there's a very just reason, that reclassing shouldn't really be considered at all.

Just my opinion, but it's something that might be worth thinking about.

[Tino]

Also, here's my (short) opinion on Wolf and Zagaro.

Wolf and Zagaro really aren't as impressive as everybody thinks they are. I dunno what they're best at, honestly, but I guess it's something like General.

??/3 Wolf

Steel Lance: 17 Atk, 3 AS, 83 Hit ,, 30 HP, 15 Def, 1 Res, 3 Avo

Iron Bow: 13 Atk, 4 AS, 93 Hit ,, 30 HP, 15 Def, 4 Avo

??/1 Zagaro

Steel Lance: 17 Atk, 2 AS, 84 Hit ,, 28 HP, 15 Def, 2 Res, 3 Avo

Iron Bow: 13 Atk, 3 AS, 94 Hit ,, 28 HP, 15 Def, 2 Res, 4 Avo

They're getting doubled by everything but Knights and Mages, the latter of which two-round them anyway. 20 Atk Steel Lance!Cavaliers three-round them, and you can't say they're very uncommon enemies.

??/5 Wolf

Steel Lance: 19 Atk, 5 AS, 85 Hit ,, 33 HP, 17 Def, 1 Res, 5 Avo

Steel Bow: 18 Atk, 5 AS, 85 Hit ,, 33 HP, 17 Def, 1 Res, 5 Avo

??/5 Zagaro

Steel Lance: 20 Atk, 5 AS, 86 Hit ,, 35 HP, 19 Def, 2 Res, 6 Avo

Steel Bow: 19 Atk, 5 AS, 86 Hit ,, 35 HP, 19 Def, 2 Res, 6 Avo

Still nothing impressive. They're getting doubled very often, their offense sucks, and all they really have is good Def.

What else could they be good at? Heroes, I suppose. Well, even as Heroes they aren't all that special. They can now double things, granted, but D swords and E axes limits their offensive capabilities upon joining.

Warrior and Berserker is pretty meh due to the lack of AS, durability and Atk to be better than Hero or General for a good amount of time. Then there are also Horseman and Sorcerer, but neither of those are very good, either.

[grandjackal]

I agree with Shiida moving up. Wing spear is nice and it's forgeable, plus she can buy more. Seriously, the forge is nuts for class effective weapons.

I agree a bit with Tino about Zagaro and Wolf. They're amazing after a bit, but they suck something fierce at the start. They should still be pretty awesome in the tiers, just...they DO have a moment of weakness.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Dat Nick]

Their moments of trivializing the game more than cancels out a brief struggling period.

C6x is an excellent opportunity for them to suck less, due to the failure of Gaiden enemies.

and all they really have is good Def.

"really good def" is very important in H5, since you can't expect Abel/Cain/Frey to tank everything on the map.

also

6 cav

4 horseman

3 armor

4 archer [ 2 lvl 5 2 lvl 3]

Cav:

31 (32) HP

22 atk

97 (9 hit

9 (10) AS

7 ( def

0 (1) res

Archer:

29 HP

19 atk

93 hit

9 AS

6 (7) def

Archer 5:

31 HP

19 atk

93 hit

9 (10) AS

7 def

0 (1) res

Armor:

33 (34) HP

22 atk

93 hit

3 AS

11 (12) def

0 (1) res

Horseman:

34 (35) HP

17 (1 atk

97 hit

15 AS

6 def

3 (4) res

Boss: Canaris

42 HP

28 atk

105 hit

10 AS

15 def

Zagaro is indeed getting doubled by most. But he's not even getting scratched by anything except the cavs and armors. And Zag gets, like, 5RKOd by them, and lol the armors don't even double.

And from there it just gets crazy. In about 2 levels they won't get doubled anymore, meaning they go from just semi-invincible to totally impervious, plus they start 2 rounding once they get access to Silver [Even one round armors later]. And they got this ridiculous in such a short amount of time. Going to need a little more than a meh jointime to kick them out of where they are [Which isn't even that bad, since they can snipe from the sidelines with javelin/bows should they need to]

EDIT 2: ATTACK OF THE CLONES:

Wing spear is nice and it's forgeable, plus she can buy more.

Thing is that it's not so awesome anymore once you can buy them, because she's seriously lacking in vital areas [strength, durability, even as Draco] and you can just toss Horseslayers/armorslayers, also buyable, on other units that can actually use them without getting raped.

Shiida's only even CLOSE to where she is for how damn helpful she is at the start: For similar reasons as Jagen, Gordin, and Ogma. From there it just gets worse, considering that since she's so reliant on the spear it's liable to break [Doesn't have a whole lot of uses, either, and you get them very few and far between] and it still doesn't give her an answer to archers, horsemen mobs [she's also actually not going to double these guys], mages, enemy fliers, mercs, ballistae, and Catria still starts kicking her ass in like, 5 levels, even if Shiida's 20/0.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

If it's better for them to snipe at first, wouldn't it be better to keep them as horsemen till they get a couple levels under their belt? They have mobility and better offense that way (since as heroes, I'd imagine though they don't get doubled, they'd still take some damage. Hell, normal mode Hero!Wolf doesn't take many shots to get him killed compared to everyone else and as Generals...it's generally trudging through. ), as they can just snipe things from a great big distance. Not like their defense growth is absolutely horrid like this with 60% or so. They have more speed growth like this too, so it makes their starts as generals even faster. Besides, I'd wait till the next chapter at Warren to make one a general (because it's a major benefit to have a roadblock there).

Of course, I've yet to play merciless mode yet...Just theory on my part, as I'm still experimenting with characters on normal mode. I'd never dream of keeping Matthis a cavalier in merciless, he makes a better archer anyways...Best archer in the game I'd say. Bad start (who besides Jeorge who sucks later doesn't have a bad start as an archer?), but he pretty much becomes FE10 Shinon later. Also, who the hell else besides Roshea (who is bleh even as one) would want to be an archer in merciless? I doubt he'd climb on the tiers, I'm just saying.

But, I'm just here suggesting, as my theories here are probably baseless. But if I make a good point...Doubt this is one, but it gets thoughts going and makes things easier to explain from debunking this.

Oh, and Zagaro and Wolf weren't there helping you through the hellish starts.

EDIT: I'd think Katua would need a couple levels before she starts really kicking ass, and the wing spear is good against both armors and horses so it's a dual slayer weapon. Takes up less space. Also, she has killer speed, how many people aside from her have a forgeable dual slayer weapon with hellish speed? She's dependent on it yes, but it's so versatile a weapon with her killer speed. This game isn't lacking in horses and armors either. Supports Marth, Ogma, and Navarre. That's a pretty nice line-up there. Katua's got Abel and Marth supports near everyone. Shame she has no canto though...

Edited March 3, 2009 by Destiny Furry