tehnikhil Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) If that is the case, you would have to admit that Jagen>Minerva. If Jagen can have a time of use for nearly as long as Minerva, than he has be considered better, since, I would believe, those starting chapters are generally considered harder. He is probably as useful at 9-10 as Minerva is from the brave wep on to the end of the game. There really doesn't seem to be much opposition to this thought. Hopefully FE3player won't shoot me down XD. And Jagen is Jagen; in H5, he is your godsend of a wall. Amen to that. If necessity isn't considered as much, than how exactly are we supposed to rank guys like Jagen? Okay, let me replace "necessary" with "incredibly useful" Edited October 29, 2009 by tehnikhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 That and with that base 9 DEF for early game, and just later on when reclassing is available and Dracoknight DEF bonus, he's pretty nice. Well, Wendell comes along too but base 5 DEF Vs. base 9 DEF. Although Wendell has a SPD lead just as long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Jeigan is awesome for one chapter, then is mostly an extra for the next several chapters. The moment Hardin joins, he no longer has a monopoly on higher level lances, and won't be out-damaging him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Jagen has base 9 DEF, Hardin has base 8. Not arguing for anyone up/down, just stating the facts. But considering his absolutely shitty growths, Jagen won't catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tehnikhil Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Yes, and that is why Hardin is above him. List who else outdamages him please (someone who can take a hit also, so don't mention Caeda please) Jagen won't catch up. Yep, but I doubt anyone plans to use him for longterm play. He is there for godly short term play Edited October 29, 2009 by tehnikhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Yes, and that is why Hardin is above him. List who else outdamages him please (someone who can take a hit also, so don't mention Caeda please) A large majority of the cast can eventually out damage Jeigan.The reason why I mention Hardin is the reason Jeigan out damages characters at first is because of the Silver Lance and Horse Slayer, both with low supply and high demand. Not having a monopoly on these things hurt. Yep, but I doubt anyone plans to use him for longterm play.Why do you think that is? Edited October 29, 2009 by FE3 Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Yep, but I doubt anyone plans to use him for longterm play. ]Why do you think that is? His growths get him nowhere? He's severely outclassed by many characters? He's got one of the lowest growth totals in the game? He has a terrible SPD, STR, and DEF growth? ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tehnikhil Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) I meant at the early on stage for the outdamaging thing. Sorry for not being clear about that. As you said, a large majority of the cast outdamages Jagen eventually. Jagen doesn't have good growths either, and I am fine with admitting that. He has a time of great use, and then becomes obsolete, but not without majorly helping your army. His growths get him nowhere? He's severely outclassed by many characters? He's got one of the lowest growth totals in the game? He has a terrible SPD, STR, and DEF growth? He probably wants us to say that he is crap, and that is why he asked that question. It is a kinda obvious answer XD. Edited October 29, 2009 by tehnikhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Draug can outtank Jagen. EDIT: In earlygame, I mean. Edited October 29, 2009 by OliverXRenning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Majorly helping your army is why he's where he is now. It's just that people decided Minerva's staying power out weighed that portion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tehnikhil Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Draug can outtank Jagen. EDIT: In earlygame, I mean. In very very early game. Once he starts getting doubled, there goes his durability lead XD. Oh, and unrelated to this argument, there is something that I am kinda curious about on tier lists: Does the topic creator "own" the tier list in a sense? Like, he gets to choose what changes and what doesn't? I dunno, because I am not sure about how I can do anything on the list if that is the case. It was sorta like that with smash on the gamefaqs board, but not too bad. It seems liek it is like debating with the judge during a policy debate: It doesn't work. Oh, and if that is the case about people thinking that Minerva's staying power outweighs Jagen's earlygame use, than how exactly am I supposed to overturn that? Or is it that I can't Edited October 29, 2009 by tehnikhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 I eventually cave in on requests, but I likely won't cave into Jeigan > Minerva unless those that supported it cave in as well. Oh, and if that is the case about people thinking that Minerva's staying power outweighs Jagen's earlygame use, than how exactly am I supposed to overturn that? Or is it that I can'tProbably because being able to double things and hit flyers with arrows is considered utility in itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Draug sucks in Ch. 2. After that, he's good. Really, everyone has their Suck Period. Jagen has one, Draug has one, even Sedgar/Wolf have one. Draug just has less of a suck time than Jagen. MUCH less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Is anyone here actually in favor of moving Jeigan? To be honest, I don't really see him moving any further up in upper mid. If anywhere, he'd go down. I feel like he's in a pretty reasonable location on the tier list, all things considered. I don't recall Marich having a suck period of any kind. Barts and Oguma might have had periods where they were "eh, average" but I don't think they ever had a suck period, either. Looking at the tier list, I guess High is for characters that have no or minimal "suck period". I might actually put Marich in Top, if it were me. He's the only caster you get with durability, his offense is amazing all game long, he's got an awesome semi-prf weapon that instagibs the most dangerous enemy type, and he's got mad staff utility later in the game. I guess the only reason he's not top is because he's not invincible like Zagaro =P. Edited October 29, 2009 by Blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Jagen isn't moving anywhere up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Jeigan will never drop below Upper Mid, no matter how much people argue it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tehnikhil Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Meh... so, did you ever have a Jagen vs Minerva debate before? I dunno about the whole Minerva staying to pick off flyers thing... I mean, can't others take that spot that minerva would take and do it better? Jagen is pretty irreplaceable and I dunno how Jagen's awesome heavy counterattacks that are amazing for H5 can hold that much less ground than Minerva's peggy sniping. Just making sure, it is Minerva's Jagen utility for 10-12 with her axe (that some may want to save) and her ability to stay and snipe peggies and others afterwards vs Jagen's chapters 1-10? I still am not 100% sure about tier list rules. I mean, I would like to say Jeorge's silver bow and his chip damage/sniperness is better than Minerva's sniping and therefore she shouldn't be used, but I can't say that, now can I? Because than, it would become a "best character" list with Sedgar/Wolf, 2 cavs, Caeda, and Cord/Barst as the only real guys. I kinda noticed something though: if, during character debates, I don't have to consider or think much about those who would fill niches better than other units, assuming they are not the ones in question of being debated, than shouldn't Rickard fit this category? I mean-- *is shot* Edited October 29, 2009 by tehnikhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) People stopped putting so much weight on necessity awhile back. In fact, you should be thanking me that Jeigan is still in Upper Mid, and kissing my feet that Oguma is still as high as he is. No. Ogma has the best durability on the team aside from barst and the super hardin bros so I have no idea where your getting the idea ogma sucks from. Ogma is also the only character to never go through a period of 'suck'. Sure his speed could use work but aside from speed the rest of his growths and bases are amazing for his level. Jeigan is pretty much the best unit in chapter's 1 through 3 aside from boss killing and he is still damn useful in 4 and 5 thanks to draco knight/sniper/swordmaster. Sure jeigan sucks afterwards. But he is a ****ing killface at the hardest point of the game. Edit: Btw chapter 2-3's boss both have ogma's name on there heads and solely ogma's name on it. You could say they were made for each other. Soul mates for life. Of course due to clock abuse it magically doesn't count anymore... Edited October 29, 2009 by Lancelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 People stopped putting so much weight on necessity awhile back. In fact, you should be thanking me that Jeigan is still in Upper Mid, and kissing my feet that Oguma is still as high as he is. No. Ogma has the best durability on the team aside from barst and the super hardin bros so I have no idea where your getting the idea ogma sucks from. Ogma is also the only character to never go through a period of 'suck'. Sure his speed could use work but aside from speed the rest of his growths and bases are amazing for his level. Jeigan is pretty much the best unit in chapter's 1 through 3 aside from boss killing and he is still damn useful in 4 and 5 thanks to draco knight/sniper/swordmaster. Sure jeigan sucks afterwards. But he is a ****ing killface at the hardest point of the game. This isn't thanking me for keeping Oguma as high as he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Jagen isn't moving anywhere up. Jeigan will never drop below Upper Mid, no matter how much people argue it. Looking at replies like this, it seems to confirm that Jeigan is in the right place. Can't others take that spot that Minerva would take and do it better? I still am not 100% sure about tier list rules. I mean, I would like to say Jeorge's silver bow and his chip damage/sniperness is better than Minerva's sniping and therefore she shouldn't be used, but I can't say that, now can I? Because than, it would become a "best character" list with Sedgar/Wolf, 2 cavs, Caeda, and Cord/Barst as the only real guys. Yes and no. There are other prepromotes that are roughly comparable short term, but aren't as good long term. An unpromoted character might turn out a little better than Minerva in the end, but they compete for Master Seals and Minerva doesn't. She's at a good middle ground between being a short-term Jeigan and being a dedicated endgame character. Thinking about it, Minerva is one of the better characters for endgame (not named Zagaro and Wolf) that doesn't require a Master Seal. Thoughts? You can argue Jeorge vs. Minerva. Jeorge's Silver Bow does a little more damage at base level. However, Minerva's got better bases overall, and better Str, Def, and Luck growths. She's got decent durability, and I doubt Jeorge does with 10% Def to Minerva's 30% and better Def base. Jeorge isn't in a good position, because Minerva is only going to get better than him as time progresses. Edited October 29, 2009 by Blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 People stopped putting so much weight on necessity awhile back. In fact, you should be thanking me that Jeigan is still in Upper Mid, and kissing my feet that Oguma is still as high as he is. No. Ogma has the best durability on the team aside from barst and the super hardin bros so I have no idea where your getting the idea ogma sucks from. Ogma is also the only character to never go through a period of 'suck'. Sure his speed could use work but aside from speed the rest of his growths and bases are amazing for his level. Jeigan is pretty much the best unit in chapter's 1 through 3 aside from boss killing and he is still damn useful in 4 and 5 thanks to draco knight/sniper/swordmaster. Sure jeigan sucks afterwards. But he is a ****ing killface at the hardest point of the game. This isn't thanking me for keeping Oguma as high as he is. Yea, I misunderstood your meaning. *kisses feet* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) boy i really gotta stop going to work or something I dunno about the whole Minerva staying to pick off flyers thing... I mean, can't others take that spot that minerva would take and do it better? *searches for viable snipers in this game* er, there's Matthis who is her with 10 more HP [which isnt worth a master seal because why are you letting your snipers get attacked?], either Abel/Cain reclassed to sniper, and that's pretty much it. Furthermore, you make it sound like fliers are the only thing she does well against which isn't true at all. She doubles cavs for pretty much the whole game, for example. Just making sure, it is Minerva's Jagen utility for 10-12 with her axe (that some may want to save) and her ability to stay and snipe peggies and others afterwards vs Jagen's chapters 1-10? no. I assumed full sniper every time I argued her up. I still am not 100% sure about tier list rules. I mean, I would like to say Jeorge's silver bow and his chip damage/sniperness is better than Minerva's sniping and therefore she shouldn't be used, but I can't say that, now can I? No you can't, because 14 AS doubles and 12 AS doesn't and Minerva is only 30 attacks away from Silver anyway which isn't that big a deal. Comparisons to Jeorge is what sent her up so high in the first place. Jagen's earlygame is useful, but he only has it for so long. We're talking like 6 chapters he's actually good as opposed to Minerva being good all the way to C24 [C23 is mage hell and longbows are king there] Hell, I'd argue just longbow utility>Jagen. Edited October 29, 2009 by BBblader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Just making sure, it is Minerva's Jagen utility for 10-12 with her axe (that some may want to save) and her ability to stay and snipe peggies and others afterwards vs Jagen's chapters 1-10? No, it's more like Jagen's 1-10 vs. Minerva's 10-Endgame (AKA 15 chapters plus Gaidens) and even then I don't think Jagen's really doing anything special for more than the first half of that time at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Francis York Morgan Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) WTF. Is this some sort of joke chainey? Or did some admin come along and change the entire list for lulz? Edit: This post has been edited by FE3 Player: Today, 11:47 AM Well that answers that question. Either chainey got high and he did it for the lulz, some crazy fanboy hacked his account, or a vast left handed conspiracy is responsible for the current tier list. Edit Again: Forgot to mention something... THIS IS MADNESS! Edited October 29, 2009 by Lancelot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuardianDreamer Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) In this joke tier list, I like how Jagen has two spots, and how Est is above Zagaro and Wolf. I also like how low Cord is.[/sarcasm] Edited October 29, 2009 by GuardianDreamer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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