Was Brawl just a fad?

[Starwolf_UK]

And they can control street fighter? lol

Brawl is a fighing game that can be enjoyed by the noob communtiy it's really simple if your a noob dash attacks decent with a down air double jump to an aerial are all simple noob tactics that advanced players usually rarely do

At noob level the game is simple and fun

At competitive level your either good and like it or okay and hate it, if your okay and you don't mind losing then hey go for it

I didn't make it clear. Basically the fighting game n00bs didn't want to know the game because to them it appears to be an utterly chaotic mess and the people who can actually play fighting games would rather play Street Fighter as you know, they find it funner :P (and it looked that way, matches were controled by the players rather than the stages and matches also started and ended quickly).

That what I mean with it failing both ends of audience. Thing is I don't know how well the controls were explained to first time around though or even if the how to play video was used I hope it was but I have a feeling it wasn't :( so can't really say if its the games problem the fighting game n00bs have trouble.

What I can say though is as much as Smash likes to say "I'm a fighting game anyone can play after watching how to plays" its a complete lie. I remember Smash 64 tooks me at least a few days to properly get the controls down (mainly, timing between jumps and recovery though also smash attacks but those weren't so important because throws were so effective) and that was when items and stages were simple but effective. It took me a few months to be able to unlock Ness as well. Go on, say that I suck but you'ld be missing the point :P

[Rodykitty]

I just think that a competitive game should require more tech skill and less spamming. Dedede, MetaKnight, Game & Watch.... pretty much all of the high-tier characters take almost no skill to play as.

I think I said this in another thread, but poor balance hurts Brawl more than lack of ATs. Metaknight's Mach Tornado is just plain bad design, for example. Chain Grabbing being as ridiculous as it is in Brawl is bad design, especially because it contradicts the mentality of nerfing hit stun that they were going for in the first place.

In G&W's defense, while people see him as a character that takes no skill to play as, when SOMEONE does put skill into G&W, G&W's potential ceiling is raised quite a bit. G&W is cheap for all of the right reasons.

[grandjackal]

I think I said this in another thread, but poor balance hurts Brawl more than lack of ATs. Metaknight's Mach Tornado is just plain bad design, for example. Chain Grabbing being as ridiculous as it is in Brawl is bad design, especially because it contradicts the mentality of nerfing hit stun that they were going for in the first place.

In G&W's defense, while people see him as a character that takes no skill to play as, when SOMEONE does put skill into G&W, G&W's potential ceiling is raised quite a bit. G&W is cheap for all of the right reasons.

Yeah, some characters are just legitimately great. G&W is indeed pretty cheap, but you actually have to try with him.

But not all balance is in hitbox or move power fault. Sometimes it comes down to speed of the game or the physics. Both of these basically made brawl go from unbalanced to cookie cutter (basically a counter of something will always work). Example: Try fighting Donkey Kong with Ganondorf. It's impossible. Ganondorf has a nigh impossible chance of winning. they way he jumps and the way donkey kong jumps always leaves enough space for a meteor to the point where ganondorf is recovering, all a donkey kong player has to do is jump right once and push c down and instant gimp. It's too easy for the kong to meteor ganon. It's to the point that it seems too perfect. I'm a donkey kong guy and I noticed this and immediately thought it was BS. My friend was trying to recover. I was barely trying to win. For how it works, DK jumps out to meteor. For the distance it takes place at, Ganon can either A. eat the meteor and die, or B. air dodge...and fall and then die. Heard it's the same way for Marth against Kirby.

Even a party game isn't fun if the game itself is working against all your efforts.

[Reikken]

I think Brawl is better (aside from loltripping. worst idea ever). Melee is too fast and technical. So much so that it's more about technical skill and less about thinking through your moves, using the best ones for the situation. I much prefer emphasis on the latter.

[Rodykitty]

Sometimes it comes down to speed of the game or the physics.

No it isn't. It comes down to how the game is balanced around the speed of the game or the physics. Brawl actually did fine in this area. What it didn't do fine is ensuring that Samus cannot kill, Metaknight has the ultimate priority on his moves, Ness/Lucas/Mario/Luigi getting infinited with ease, other such crap like that.

Example: Try fighting Donkey Kong with Ganondorf. It's impossible. Ganondorf has a nigh impossible chance of winning. they way he jumps and the way donkey kong jumps always leaves enough space for a meteor to the point where ganondorf is recovering, all a donkey kong player has to do is jump right once and push c down and instant gimp. It's too easy for the kong to meteor ganon. It's to the point that it seems too perfect. I'm a donkey kong guy and I noticed this and immediately thought it was BS. My friend was trying to recover. I was barely trying to win. For how it works, DK jumps out to meteor. For the distance it takes place at, Ganon can either A. eat the meteor and die, or B. air dodge...and fall and then die. Heard it's the same way for Marth against Kirby.

This has more to do with a specific matchup than it does Brawl's choice in speed and physics. Edited January 27, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

No it isn't. It comes down to how the game is balanced around the speed of the game or the physics. Brawl actually did fine in this area. What it didn't do fine is ensuring that Samus cannot kill, Metaknight has the ultimate priority on his moves, Ness/Lucas/Mario/Luigi getting infinited with ease, other such crap like that.

This has more to do with a specific matchup than it does Brawl's choice in speed and physics.

...Ok, good point. I guess speed would have nothing to do with it now that I think about it. Would just mean the same thing happens, just fast-forward. But the physics do have something to do with it. Brawl is not only floaty, but bouncy. Gravity seems so low. It's like Ganondorf just floats into the meteor...But if gravity was involved, he'd be dead anyways, so...I guess it's a moot point.

Samus is indeed sad, but you seen Captain Falcon? I mained him in melee and played him casually at brawl first and even CASUALLY he feels useless. it's so sad to see what they did to him...It's like watching a friend get raped and watching it, powerless to stop it...

[Rodykitty]

But the physics do have something to do with it. Brawl is not only floaty, but bouncy. Gravity seems so low. It's like Ganondorf just floats into the meteor...But if gravity was involved, he'd be dead anyways, so...I guess it's a moot point.

Once again, something that can be balanced around. If you really want to avoid a Meteor, try air dodging.

EDIT: Better yet, try spacing. Don't jump straight towards the stage. Make it harder to get yourself spiked and go around your opponent. DI is important for a reason, so make sure when you get knocked off the stage you're DIing in such a way that you're going into the sky and not below the stage.

Samus is indeed sad, but you seen Captain Falcon? I mained him in melee and played him casually at brawl first and even CASUALLY he feels useless. it's so sad to see what they did to him...It's like watching a friend get raped and watching it, powerless to stop it...

Brawl has worse balance issues than Captain Falcon being crappy. Edited January 27, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Once again, something that can be balanced around. If you really want to avoid a Meteor, try air dodging.

EDIT: Better yet, try spacing. Don't jump straight towards the stage. Make it harder to get yourself spiked and go around your opponent. DI is important for a reason, so make sure when you get knocked off the stage you're DIing in such a way that you're going into the sky and not below the stage.

Brawl has worse balance issues than Captain Falcon being crappy.

It's more my friend, he's the ganon man, I'M the DK dude. But still, I saw how easy the meteor was. His only option WAS towards the stage, he wasn't high in the air. He was far enough that he could grab the ledge IF he third jumped. He was in the middle of a second jump. He had just started it when I jumped after him. IF he had third jumped, he'd of just got meteor'd or hit me but had done it too early. If he'd of air dodged...he'd have fallen and died. It practically was a situation ganon can't escape. Just knock ganon horizontally and DK wins. He could destroy me with ganon in melee, he knew how to play ganon. He was trying, I wasn't. Note I had also never played DK before. DK just mops the floor with ganon, it's what I meant by cookie cutter counters. Not meaning to sound rude if I came off that way, just wanted to explain it play by play for better understanding of the situation.

I'm aware the captain is the least of brawl's worries, but still...poor captain...*cries into his pillow*

[Rodykitty]

His only option WAS towards the stage, he wasn't high in the air. He was far enough that he could grab the ledge IF he third jumped.

DI is important for a reason, so make sure when you get knocked off the stage you're DIing in such a way that you're going into the sky and not below the stage.

[grandjackal]

...K, obviously I'm missing something because the only way he could DI going upwards was into DK's feet as they meteor'd him...You can DI upward?

[Rodykitty]

...K, obviously I'm missing something because the only way he could DI going upwards was into DK's feet as they meteor'd him...

No, you DI towards the corner of the screens if you're getting knocked off the stage. Input the DI right as you get hit, and use the C-STick to aid you. This puts you in a much better position to recover since you gain height, or even Ganoncide.

You'd be shocked at the kind of percentages someone that is good with DI can survive at.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

No, you DI towards the corner of the screens if you're getting knocked off the stage. Input the DI right as you get hit, and use the C-STick to aid you. This puts you in a much better position to recover since you gain height, or even Ganoncide.

You'd be shocked at the kind of percentages someone that is good with DI can survive at.

Ohhhhh! Ok...THAT definitely helps...

...But then this just makes the killing take even LONGER, which takes forever as it is. Odd. Either get bored waiting or get bored finding it no challenge...Brawl is so weirdly designed.

[Camus The Dark Knight]

To be honest I find melee and the N64 one more fun. Not to say brawl sucks, I enjoy the music and the create a stage can be pretty amusing, but all in all I had much more fun with melee. Maybe it's because I have gotten older, who knows, but I still enjoy melee more.

[Krevin]

I think I said this in another thread, but poor balance hurts Brawl more than lack of ATs. Metaknight's Mach Tornado is just plain bad design, for example. Chain Grabbing being as ridiculous as it is in Brawl is bad design, especially because it contradicts the mentality of nerfing hit stun that they were going for in the first place.

In G&W's defense, while people see him as a character that takes no skill to play as, when SOMEONE does put skill into G&W, G&W's potential ceiling is raised quite a bit. G&W is cheap for all of the right reasons.

Yeah, some characters are just legitimately great. G&W is indeed pretty cheap, but you actually have to try with him.

Shorthopping a turtle doesn't take much skill. Bucket-breaking (or whatever the hell they call it now) takes minimal skill. dtilt takes no skill at all. I personally do worse while I'm laughing, so uair spam to keep my enemy from hitting the ground is a bit tough. Honestly, what else is there? I know there's more to G&W then just those attacks, my IRL teams partner mains him, but I'm just proving my point. He's friggin' easy, and you don't have to worry about your opponents breaking through your attacks.

I think Brawl is better (aside from loltripping. worst idea ever). Melee is too fast and technical. So much so that it's more about technical skill and less about thinking through your moves, using the best ones for the situation. I much prefer emphasis on the latter.

Mindgames were a huge portion of Melee. And because Melee is so fast, it forces you to decide what moves are best quickly. That being said, I think I'd prefer Brawl for its slower pace if I hadn't spend so many hours practicing Melee to keep up with it. My fingers are just soooo slooowwww

[Destiny Hero]

No, it isn't. One, they aren't glitches. Two, since they're gone, they can't be used.

O YEAH I FORGOT THAR NOT GLITCHES THAR JUS THINGS THE PROGRAMMERS DUN INTEND FUH

SO SRY THAR NO SUCH THING AS GLITCH EVRYTHINGS AWSUM

[dondon151]

I think Brawl is better (aside from loltripping. worst idea ever). Melee is too fast and technical. So much so that it's more about technical skill and less about thinking through your moves, using the best ones for the situation. I much prefer emphasis on the latter.

I'll have to respectfully disagree... Playing on autopilot is the easiest way to lose a match and it's the difference between mid-tier and high-tier players. It's why I'm no good at this game =X

[Father Wood]

Hell no! It's not even close to dying! I have tons of friends at school who prefer it over Melee.

[Rodykitty]

O YEAH I FORGOT THAR NOT GLITCHES THAR JUS THINGS THE PROGRAMMERS DUN INTEND FUH

SO SRY THAR NO SUCH THING AS GLITCH EVRYTHINGS AWSUM

Players are still going to use them in tournaments regardless.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

fad? no. Best Fighting Game on the Wii so far? YES

[Rodykitty]

fad? no. Best Fighting Game on the Wii so far? YES

Even though I haven't played it, you have just indirectly made this topic about Tatsunoko vs. Capcom.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

Even though I haven't played it, you have just indirectly made this topic about Tatsunoko vs. Capcom.

i have no clue what the fuck you just said. i was talking about brawl.

[Paper Jam]

i have no clue what the fuck you just said. i was talking about brawl.

You called it the best fighting game on the Wii so far, which implies that it is better than Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, another fighting game on the Wii.

I haven't played Tatsunoko vs. Capcom either and don't know if Brawl really is better, but unless Brawl really is better...

Actually, it reminds me of a quote by the Angry Video Game Nerd in his Ghostbusters review: "This is the worst game I've ever played in my life. It's worse than Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Well... maybe not THAT bad..."

So I guess my point is that superlatives are overused.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Paper Jam

[Atriel]

Amazing. So much crap in a 4 pages thread.

Whining ahoy!

Edited January 29, 2009 by Atriel

[dondon151]

Kind of ironic that you're whining about whining, eh?

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is more of a traditional fighter, i.e. better competitive mechanics...

[Hibari]

I get that feeling too sometimes.