grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Marisa should go up. The Hammerne staff gets you not only additional uses of awesome weapons, but also substantially more experience if used on Partia or Miracle Sword. I'd say that makes her more valuable than Wendel, personally. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffPuff Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Marisa should go up. The Hammerne staff gets you not only additional uses of awesome weapons, but also substantially more experience if used on Partia or Miracle Sword. I'd say that makes her more valuable than Wendel, personally. Also having the chance to growing some Hp and Def too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Here is the latest version. =Top Tier= Sirius Paola Katua Oguma Marth Linda =High Tier= Nabarl Feena Chainy Minerva Wendel Cecil Kain Roddy Luke Marisa Maric Elren =Mid Tier= Yubello Kashim Yumina Julian Sheeda Abel George ==Low Tier== Astoria Samson Doga Samuto Gordon Machis Ryan Medea =Bottom Tier= Alan Ricardo Chiki Warren Sheema Banetou Roshe Astoria =Bishop tier, based on hawtness= Lena Maria Elice Nyna =Fail= Est Samson =Worse than Est= (Insert large gap here) Sheema Marisa moved to high tier. She has Riff's joining time (technically, her join time is actually better because she can be recruited just in time to heal some of the pain) and growths that are actually worth something. Normally I don't consider Hammerne very valuable, but I also forgot that the Miracle Sword gives 2x EXP, so her ability to keep the EXP flow going is a huge plus for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffPuff Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) Marisa moved to high tier. She has Riff's joining time (technically, her join time is actually better because she can be recruited just in time to heal some of the pain) and growths that are actually worth something.Normally I don't consider Hammerne very valuable, but I also forgot that the Miracle Sword gives 2x EXP, so her ability to keep the EXP flow going is a huge plus for her. Though you really cannot have her heal much in the beginning, as there is only one Heal Staff and Relive Staff until Chapter 5. Well, you would have to use forts mostly until then. Edited February 10, 2009 by Laylea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Though you really cannot have her heal much in the beginning, as there is only one Heal Staff and Relive Staff until Chapter 5.Then it is a good thing she has a monopoly on these two items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Here is the latest version.=Top Tier= Sirius Paola Katua Oguma Marth Linda =High Tier= Nabarl Feena Chainy Minerva Wendel Cecil Kain Roddy Luke Marisa Maric Elren =Mid Tier= Yubello Kashim Yumina Julian Sheeda Abel George ==Low Tier== Astoria Samson Doga Samuto Gordon Machis Ryan Medea =Bottom Tier= Alan Ricardo Chiki Warren Sheema Banetou Roshe Astoria =Bishop tier, based on hawtness= Lena Maria Elice Nyna =Fail= Est Samson =Worse than Est= (Insert large gap here) Sheema Marisa moved to high tier. She has Riff's joining time (technically, her join time is actually better because she can be recruited just in time to heal some of the pain) and growths that are actually worth something. Normally I don't consider Hammerne very valuable, but I also forgot that the Miracle Sword gives 2x EXP, so her ability to keep the EXP flow going is a huge plus for her. Is Astoria in low for giving up the miracle blade early? If so...sounds reasonable. Uber weapon 5 chapters earlier, giving pwn experience along with it. Not like he's anything special when kept alive. Currently being argued: Yubello, Elren and Kashim's placement. And I thought we agreed Kain needs to drop. I'd say...just below Yubello. He's got mobility, but you also have 4 great paladins before him. He's a good replacement, but he'd be hard to fit in your army by then. If it were just two guys doing his job, he'd fit in easy, but 4 is just making him a bit unnecessary, especially when most are already better than him as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) Yubello doesn't get a monopoly on boss kills. sryYeah I severely undestimated it, but there are a shitload of reinforcements throughout the chapters and Yubello has the chance to kill them.There are also at least 30 enemies in C4-5 each (WITHOUT reinforcements factored in, and there can be anywhere from 2-4 a turn in C4), a bunch of knights in C6 (+ reinforcements) as well as the boss being a General, at least 15 thieves ripe for the picking (with L1 Knight reinforcements). C8 has a bunch of promoted enemies, C9 has Dragon Knights and plenty of Thieves (Hero/Sniper reinforcements too, but don't fuck with those fuckers man). On second though, I can see him easily rising above Elren. Merric needs some more debate though imo. The only reason I'd argue Cain lower -- and I see him above Merric anyway -- is his relatively late joining time. His bases are pretty much fine. Edited February 10, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Hey, uh, wouldn't Machis qualify for fail tier as well? It's ridicliously hard to recruit him WITHOUT him going suicidial on you, never mind it eats up turns keeping him alive and having julian go allll the way to Machis just to bench Machis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Hey, uh, wouldn't Machis qualify for fail tier as well?It's ridicliously hard to recruit him WITHOUT him going suicidial on you, never mind it eats up turns keeping him alive and having julian go allll the way to Machis just to bench Machis. Hmm...The line is being blurred between "hard to recruit" and "actually hurts efficiency." If too many characters are being put in the tier for this reason, then I'm going to ditch the tier entirely and just adjust their normal tier values based on this flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) I love how bottom tier and less than est tier has Sheema in it. Also, I think the lower tiers need a bit of rearranging. Astram should be in mid somewhere. Above Jeorge imo, because his combat is at least decent when he comes in and he isn't stuck to bows. ==Low Tier== Doga Ricardo Samuto Midia Samson Gordon Ryan Chiki =Bottom Tier= Alan Mattis Banetou Warren Roshe =Fail= Sheema Est Bishop tier discluded Feel free to argue. This is just from a glance though, so it may not entirely reflect my views when I'm not doing physics. Edited February 10, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 No, Samson goes into Fail tier too. He's just a nine on the suck scale instead of a 10, but you still have to not kill the Gra soldiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) What's stopping you from killing them later anyway? It's not like they're a nuisance, nor are they that hard to kill afterwards. Besides, there are like 5 or 6 enemies otherwise. EDIT: My bad, way underestimation. 3 Archers, 6 Dragon Knights, 6 Soldiers, and like 3 archers/1 soldier behind the doors. Yet, the Gra soldiers don't even attack you. <_< They're pretty spread out though. Edited February 10, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Yeah I severely undestimated it, but there are a shitload of reinforcements throughout the chapters and Yubello has the chance to kill them.There are also at least 30 enemies in C4-5 each (WITHOUT reinforcements factored in, and there can be anywhere from 2-4 a turn in C4), a bunch of knights in C6 (+ reinforcements) as well as the boss being a General, at least 15 thieves ripe for the picking (with L1 Knight reinforcements). C8 has a bunch of promoted enemies, C9 has Dragon Knights and plenty of Thieves (Hero/Sniper reinforcements too, but don't fuck with those fuckers man). On second though, I can see him easily rising above Elren. Merric needs some more debate though imo. The only reason I'd argue Cain lower -- and I see him above Merric anyway -- is his relatively late joining time. His bases are pretty much fine. First off, on the map we first get Yubello, there won't be much reinforcements because wer'e rescuing marth to recruit Kashim as fast as we can/Marth can stroll to the castle from there. But with the pirates knocking at the front door, He'll maybe get a level, 2 stretching it. Then there's the chapter before the bridge. At best, he's getting the armor knight reinforcements for when Marth is trudging through the forest, but it won't be much. No way he's killing the dragon without baby tactics because that thing will kill Yubello in one shot. He'll get maybe another level or 2 here. The bridge gives him finally a good shot as we want to kill the bastard Paladins and Generals by any means before Astram's rape squad comes to bone you in the behind. Still not much here, and the sniper is danger danger to him. Due to how few there are and how fast we're trying to blitz this chapter, giving him a level here is generous. At best, he'll be level 6. May I mention at the bridge, the promotes have resistance. Yubello is still a bit weak. He'll not be doing a lot of damage to them. Kahdain FINALLY gives him an opportunity. Shaver for the dragon knights, great against the mages due to actually having power. He's still gotta be a bit careful around the dragon knights, so he's at best picking off distracted ones. Thieves for easy too, especially since the desert doesn't distract him. Easily 2, maybe 4 levels due to experience he could have gained from the bridge. So now he's about level 9-10 when Elren and Maric show up. Would bring up Yubello's averages, but I can't find them...But 10 by the time they show up is actually generous. 18 is just rediculous though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffPuff Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Hey, uh, wouldn't Machis qualify for fail tier as well?It's ridicliously hard to recruit him WITHOUT him going suicidial on you, never mind it eats up turns keeping him alive and having julian go allll the way to Machis just to bench Machis. Thankfully that he has a Javalin, so that he doesn't suiside himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) No way he's killing the dragon without baby tactics because that thing will kill Yubello in one shot.The dragon has 20 attack. I think you're overestimating it, especially since Shaver Yubello basically one rounds this thing due to its AS and lack of Res.Besides, if anything is surviving more than three attacks in a row from a Dragon Knight, you've been abusing the arena or some shit. Edited February 10, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The dragon has 20 attack. I think you're overestimating it, especially since Shaver Yubello basically one rounds this thing due to its AS and lack of Res.Besides, if anything is surviving more than three attacks in a row from a Dragon Knight, you've been abusing the arena or some shit. First off, Machis is a nuisance, but he can make a good secondary tank thanks to starting with 9 defense. He's like a mobile but a bit less durable Doga. Having a mobile wall is nice. Recruiting him is a pain, but it isn't like he'll be killing anyone if he tries. He'll just be attacking the cav without a javelin. Heal staff use if necessary. Besides, Julian's traveling his ass down anyways for the aiote shield. He gets Marrisa a bit of experience at the cost of being annoying to recruit. He isn't slowing you down as much as he's just being an ass. Though it does bring up the idea. Machis is a bit shakey here, but he isn't slowing you down unless her purposefully gets in your way. Don't put him in fail, but penalize him for being able to block your way to Julian. Secondly, I might not be exagerating. I wish I could find the averages, but they're unavailable at feawiki. But he won't have grown much HP in the 1-2 levels he might of gained. Secondly, he's taking the damn thing down by himself if he criticals both times. Again, he probably didn't grow much power...and don't fire dragons have 5 resistance anyways? He's tickling teh fire dragon at best. Besides, we wanna save the Shaver for draco knight and flying dragon rape that's soon to come. Do we even have a shiver tome by now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 and don't fire dragons have 5 resistance anyways? He's tickling teh fire dragon at best.Use Blizza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) Use Blizza. Even then, he'd need a critical, wouldn't he? Also, do we even have Blizza by then? EDIT: Wait, the point is that it isn't as hard to kill the dragon then, isn't it? Dur, my bad. Edited February 10, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Yeah, we do. Shop in that one desert chapter. We have Shaver tomes because of that chapter by dragons as well. No use in having one prior if you're not going to use it on Dragon Knights, at least the later ones. Finally, But he won't have grown much HP in the 1-2 levels he might of gained Yubello has 3 base defense and 18 base HP. He's taking 17 damage from a Steel Lance Dragon Knight unless you wish to prove the laws of arithmetic incorrect. I do believe you could go the west way around to recruit Matthis, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Spoon Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) Oh, I definitely meant higher than Cain/Rody/whoever the hell else, at first I was wondering Cecil's advantages before I looked it up so it was poor planning.Yubello can take two or three attacks before dying. Merric is more or less the same until you build him up. Until then? They're pretty much at the complete mercy of the dragons for the next couple chapters, who block through defense anyway. And Yubello is more likely to have better evade against them too. <_< "Everyone else" doesn't matter, considering how they don't do as efficiently as Yubello there. Neither are realyl skipping through either; I will repeat that I posted stats earlier in this thread, page two or three, and read them if you really want to see the full argument because I am not typing it out again. EDIT: Screw this. EDIT 2: Let's take a call here. Who would you guys trust to manage the tiers best? Let's vote on it, and have someone on the first page edit their post accordingly. I'd rather somebody else does this... I vote FE3 player. Why doesn't FE3 player just make a new thread, and we can all explicitly state here for a page or so at the beginning and end of this thread for it to not be merged with the new one? Or I could ask for it to be locked. Edited February 10, 2009 by Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I'll manage the tier list, since several people suggested I do already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Yeah, we do. Shop in that one desert chapter.We have Shaver tomes because of that chapter by dragons as well. No use in having one prior if you're not going to use it on Dragon Knights, at least the later ones. Finally, Yubello has 3 base defense and 18 base HP. He's taking 17 damage from a Steel Lance Dragon Knight unless you wish to prove the laws of arithmetic incorrect. I do believe you could go the west way around to recruit Matthis, also. With Matthis it's slower, but it's another option. Not penalize him too badly I guess? Like a slot lower? I see we're at a confusion here...I'm talking about the FIRE dragon at the chapter before the bridge (Crimson Fencer, the one with Nabarl and Feena). THAT will kill him in one shot, AND it's before Khadain, where you get shiver tomes. AKA, AFTER the FIRE dragon. Thanks for showing me the dragon knight thing though, proving he STILL has to be careful as there ARE mages about. He hasn't grown major levels, and most likely hasn't grown much HP or defense in said levels. He'll basically be doing the be the point furthest away they can reach me, get healed back to full then do it again with another, which is moving slow. He'll slowly pick up, but it's DURING this chapter in Kahdain, not BEFORE. Though for some reason I feel like I'm forgetting something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) I honestly don't remember any fire dragons in that chapter. The rest of your point is gibberish to me. Edited February 10, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I honestly don't remember any fire dragons in that chapter. Remember the random cave on the left side of the map? Get close enough and one comes out. Free 50 exp ain't bad, just 50 exp Yubello ain't getting without baby tactics. Not to mention there's hidden treasure in front of the cave. Free Libro! Saw it in the new treasure page for FE3 right here at this site. I was surprised myself to be honest, I had no clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Free 50 exp ain't bad, just 50 exp Yubello ain't getting without baby tactics.Alright then. We have just established that Yubello is not high tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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