FE3, Book 2 tier list

[PuffPuff]

The Ice Dragons aren't that hard either on the outdoor chapter. Only the initial swarm is of any threat, and we know they're gimped easily. Thieves are a bigger threat than the dragons on the Ice Dragon indoor chapter due to the dragons in that chapter being easy to manipulate.

Not that you cannot really get out of more than one dragons range at the start of the castle either.

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The tier list is looking pretty good.

[Dat Nick]

Hm, since there's an Orion Arrow in C5, only two chapters after Sheeda joins, and Gordin can actually not suck in the first five chapters he's present, I could actually see Gordin>Sheeda too...

[Lord Raven]

First off, fucking school. I'm not reading through all this shit.

Second off, I can't believe people are replying to Ayanami.

Third, why the hell are people suddenly jumping the gun that I want her above low tier or something? All I care about is her > Ryan or something, not her > half the cast.

And has anyone even calculated the numbers for the amount of money you get? Including stat boosters sold apparently, seeing as selling one nets you like five silver weapons or a shitload of irons and steels.

Chiki being a general killer? Your mages can do the job better because they can actually kill said generals. Factor in armorslayers and the legend weapons. Generals are not that hard to kill when she joins.

And which mage am I arguing her above? I don't think I am arguing her above or anywhere near a Mage.

Which chars with armorslayers am I arguing her above? Samuto it seems, as well as Samson/Astoria.

Chiki joins automatically? Don't we have to visit her room in the ice castle? Either way, I guess it's an irrelevant point.

If you don't visit her room, no 18K for you.

At least Gordon can get away with cheap iron bows.

If people only need cheap iron bows, then why shit on the lack of Funds when you're not buying funds costly weapons in the first place?

Is a weakener for the first chapter to minimize damage for your cavs and marth, weakens the god powerful dragon knights in the next two chapters (especially chapter 2 boss. Ya know, the one with speed and a knight killer meaning either he's killing your cavs or your cavs are dinking him with swords?).

Warren does the second one too, and he doesn't have one move per turn in the forest.

He also has the same base strength and speed

Luke with Iron Lance and Cecil with Slim Lance, or any cavs dismounted, can double them. He can weaken them, but he can't kill them for shit. Besides, Alan also weakens them, and does a hell of a better job at it considering he takes 3-4 damage from them, each.

Continues until people start being able to double attack and kill in one round (which is pretty early)

Which he has no ability to do. Dismounted people can double attack early, can't kill in one round.

Of course, they also have the ability to attack at enemy phase and maintain the durability to keep doing so. Gordon can't do the former, and his HP is a tad too low for the latter.

In fact, Linde in C3 does a better job at killing things than Gordon does, and weakening stuff on top of that (unless she uses Aura, where she does downright kill them).

at which point he basically becomes a mage killer when there's barely any until Partia/promotion.

Mages can weaken Mages better. Your regular chars can one round mages. Gordon can't even do that until L13 when he has 4 AS from an Iron Bow. An Iron Bow.

This is all better than tanking at a part when tanking isn't really necessary because you have plenty of people who can take shots.

Gordon isn't necessary. Chiki isn't necessary. Which is why both are in Low tier. Don't exaggerate my point beyond what it is.

Basically, only way I could be convinced is if you prove that Chiki is either either more effective later than Gordon is earlier, or that she is leagues less expensive with that fire stone we get early and would love to sell to actually have money. If you can do this simple thing, I will be convinced, because you're actually putting up a good argument.

Afterwards, they both have equal ability to two round. One, however, has 1-2 range and much more durability; the other does not.

18K is still too much for one unit, especially one whose uses are situational.

I'm going to go out on a whim and say that most of the unpromoted people will end up using 18K total anyway considering promotion items + weapons along the way.

Gordon will be costing around 18K as well. Especially because he can't double for another 8 levels considering his AS base is 2 and his growth is 30%.

And even then, there's the factoid that he costs EXP to get up to basically tying Chiki in offense numbers. Chiki can do 1-2 range, one-hit half the enemies and two round the other enemies, etc better than Gordon for around the same cost as Gordon himself, with a fire stone.

Selling all of your stat boosting items, that can fix dents in your whole army's weaknesses just to let a single character use her weapon is blatant favortism.

... if you sell all your stat boosting items, then surely you'd have enough to use a dragonstone for one character that I'm not even arguing above low tier?

[Dat Nick]

Gordon will be costing around 18K as well.

not even

Promotion is 5k, so now you have to try and argue him using 13k of weapons. The Silver Card is obtained in C10, and Gordin won't need Silver before then. Gordin probably won't even come close to 220 silver bow uses unless you're really wasteful or something.

And even then, there's the factoid that he costs EXP

uh, yeah. Stop right there. EXP is almost a non-factor in this game considering how damn much of it there is to go around.

[Lord Raven]

Promotion is 5k, so now you have to try and argue him using 13k of weapons. The Silver Card is obtained in C10, and Gordin won't need Silver before then. Gordin probably won't even come close to 220 silver bow uses unless you're really wasteful or something.

If Silver Card automatically negates the lack of Funds then why does it even matter how much Chiki's taking away?

uh, yeah. Stop right there. EXP is almost a non-factor in this game considering how damn much of it there is to go around.

1.5 levels every chapter. Meaning he can't hit 4 AS until C6 (L12). By then he has 8.1 speed and 9.1 Str (15 Atk). With an Iron Bow he doesn't even kill the Pallies.

There are a bunch of knights in C6, they outnumber the mages by a lot. So he's doing... 3-4 damage x2. Most of your chars are sword users, therefore they don't.

C7 has Thieves with 5 AS.

C8 is hectic, I'm not even going there.

And this is when he can start doubling. You've got Warren to help with C2 Wyverns, and Linde to rape C3 Wyverns. So he's not the only one here doing so.

And even then, you could use the levels on a unit that's more useful. It doesn't matter if it's practically a "non-factor" because he could easily give it to others to give them a boost and they'll also have 1, potential 1-2 range, while he's stuck with low AS with a 2 range weapon. <_<

[Rodykitty]

Gordon is probably going to stay where he is for awhile. Being Low tier already says a lot about him.

[Dat Nick]

If Silver Card automatically negates the lack of Funds

when the fuck did I say it did?

I said it makes Gordin eat up less funds than Chiki.

Oh yeah, and if you count the fire dragonstones, that's up to 27k, depending on how much Banutu used.

1.5 levels every chapter. Meaning he can't hit 4 AS until C6 (L12). By then he has 8.1 speed and 9.1 Str (15 Atk). With an Iron Bow he doesn't even kill the Pallies.

you conveniently forgot the bit where he's promoting next chapter

You know why else this point sucks? Because it applies to any unit taking Gordin's place. Eating up EXP applies to Kashim, George, Warren, Merric, Elren, and even Chiki.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

Add in actually being there to help in the early chapters to minimize damage taken (sine no one is double killing/don't wish to take counters when they do start double killing), help with this pesky dragon knights (who can help, but warren does do better...for one whole chapter where we want more than one archer on the boss who flies at your mostly cav army with a knight killer. Even with Warren, it takes two turns to kill him without another archer. Besides, not like Gordon can just to right to take care of another draco kngiht. Right path is relatively open.) and dragonvalley archer exp and he's doing much better than one thinks. At least better than Chiki (who I now agree should at least be above Samuto. Fuck that guy.)

Having only 2 range can only be considered a weakness at times when the game throws a crapload of enemies at you. Minimizing damage taken in this game is much more helpful than lol, can't touch this FE6-9. Even then, we're walling so to minimize damage of each person taken from the huge amount of enemies, which was another reason archers got bashed so much. Teamwork's actually required here. Chiki doesn't have the durability to tank either, thanks to 0 attack speed forever. At least Gordon can avoid being doubled.

I feel Chiki can move up, but no way in hell she's getting above Gordon. He gets no love, he NEEDS this. Don't take it from him.

We reply to Ayanami because either A. It's funny to, B. We can at least reply in funny ways, or 3. We're incredibly irritable.

[Dat Nick]

We're incredibly irritable.

that would be me

[PuffPuff]

Hm, since there's an Orion Arrow in C5, only two chapters after Sheeda joins, and Gordin can actually not suck in the first five chapters he's present, I could actually see Gordin>Sheeda too...

Actually, you get the first Orion Arrow in Chapter 7.

Second off, I can't believe people are replying to Ayanami.

Right, even though my points are actually relevant.

Luke with Iron Lance and Cecil with Slim Lance, or any cavs dismounted, can double them. He can weaken them, but he can't kill them for shit. Besides, Alan also weakens them, and does a hell of a better job at it considering he takes 3-4 damage from them, each.

Not to mention that you need Alan anyway to be able to get the Lady Sword.

... if you sell all your stat boosting items, then surely you'd have enough to use a dragonstone for one character that I'm not even arguing above low tier?

Yeah, you can sell the Divine Stone, buy the Time one, and sell the Firestones to make the profit quite nice. 27K. And that the Time Dragonstone is alot better than the Divine/Fire ones anyways. Upon her starting Level she will get 18 Def and 19 Mag Def, I suppose. but around that.

Stop right there. EXP is almost a non-factor in this game considering how damn much of it there is to go around.

Not to mention the EXP doesn't go down as you level up like it does in most of every other FE game.

Oh yeah, and if you count the fire dragonstones, that's up to 27k, depending on how much Banutu used.

you conveniently forgot the bit where he's promoting next chapter

Not that you really have to use him either. The mamkutes are pretty much optional characters to use.

You know why else this point sucks? Because it applies to any unit taking Gordin's place. Eating up EXP applies to Kashim, George, Warren, Merric, Elren, and even Chiki.

Eating up EXP, not for Maric. You actually will have to use him.

For the Final Chapter, and for the good ending.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Laylea

[NoNameAtAll]

that would be me

He forgot D. All of the above.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, you get the first Orion Arrow in Chapter 7.

...that's what i meant to say. "two chapters after Shiida joins" should have given it away.

Right, even though my points are actually relevant.

Yeah, and PRIVATE RYAN should have his own tier above Sirius.

Eating up EXP, not for Maric. You actually will have to use him.For the Final Chapter, and for the good ending.

Good ending equals irrelevant. Beating the game is beating the game.

[Rodykitty]

Merric doesn't need to level up to be used in the final chapter. Just keep him out of the way of everything.

[grandjackal]

You ALL do realize Laela IS Ayanami, right?

Anyways, may we return to teh topic at hand, or is the tier complete?

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Machis > Samto. Joins a few chapters sooner, is more durable, has more Strength, and has the option to mount. Samto is faster, but Machis already manages 3 AS with Steel Sword upon joining time, and he does similar damage with an Iron Sword that Samto does with a Steel anyways. And having 1 more Move unmounted isn't enough to make up for Machis having 2 more Move (3 post-promotion) on outdoor chapters.

Machis is also probably beating out Doga because of the classes involved.

[Rodykitty]

You ALL do realize Laela IS Ayanami, right?

Yes.

And I'll move Machis up later if nobody objects.

Anyways, may we return to teh topic at hand, or is the tier complete?

Tier lists are never complete until people get tired of working on them. Edited February 12, 2009 by Chainey

[PuffPuff]

Yeah, and PRIVATE RYAN should have his own tier above Sirius.

Ryan shouldn't have to go above Sirius. Though he has a better chance to rise to greatness, Sirius statrs off powerful upon joining time and will stay that way all throughout. Though I think that Paola should go above him, because she has a chance at developing better than him, and can level up another 20 times upon classchange.

Tier lists are never complete until people get tired of working on them.

Right. That is why that this topic is at 16 pages already.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Laylea

[grandjackal]

Machis > Samto. Joins a few chapters sooner, is more durable, has more Strength, and has the option to mount. Samto is faster, but Machis already manages 3 AS with Steel Sword upon joining time, and he does similar damage with an Iron Sword that Samto does with a Steel anyways. And having 1 more Move unmounted isn't enough to make up for Machis having 2 more Move (3 post-promotion) on outdoor chapters.

Machis is also probably beating out Doga because of the classes involved.

Not to mention still being more durable and only getting tougher while Samuto is...Samuto.

Definitely better than Samuto. Better than Doga? I dunno...try to show me uses of Machis that is better than the 3 chapters Doga was in where he was mighty helpful. Yeah, I said three even though Machis is in the third chapter, but it isn't like Machis has any use in the chapter by the time you get him. Machis is a secondary tank earlygame sure, but Doga had some uses beforehand and is still a pretty good tank for a bit longer.

[Dat Nick]

Ryan shouldn't have to go above Sirius.

...Wow.

...Right...over...your...head.

[Rodykitty]

Machis is likely going to go above Samuto, but I'm curious as to what Samuto is good for anyway.

[grandjackal]

Machis is likely going to go above Samuto, but I'm curious as to what Samuto is good for anyway.

The kill sword he comes with?

[Rodykitty]

Right...

I'll look at his stats and stuff later.

[Lord Raven]

Can someone seriously point me in the direction of all the Funds you get in the game? I know a bunch of thieves drop random things of Gold and you can probably sell superfluous promotion items/stat boosters. I'm also pretty sure you start with 10K right off the bat.

And to get within a reasonable turn limit for a chapter (ie, when only a couple people are needed to go off to kill some enemies/get Marth to the throne) there's always the Arena.

I said it makes Gordin eat up less funds than Chiki.

But I'm saying that it means you can give at least one Fire stone to Chiki because you've got the Silver Card to not fuck over your Funds, seeing as it effectively doubles your Gold output.

Oh yeah, and if you count the fire dragonstones, that's up to 27k, depending on how much Banutu used.

54K (double its value), then you've got another Fire stone just for Chiki that Bantu didn't finish off.

you conveniently forgot the bit where he's promoting next chapter

Yeah, and that takes away from Kashim.

You know why else this point sucks? Because it applies to any unit taking Gordin's place. Eating up EXP applies to Kashim, George, Warren, Merric, Elren, and even Chiki.

Yeah, that's not my point. It's a factor that Chiki comes in with Fire Stones not needing any EXP, whereas Gordon does. I'm not listing it as a major point, either. Edited February 12, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

But I'm saying that it means you can give at least one Fire stone to Chiki

What, you want to make Chiki's offense suck worse than it already does?

54K (double its value)

um, why?

They're found, not bought, and there's no funds ranking in this game.

Yeah, and that takes away from Kashim.

except kashim doesn't want to promote early since his stat growth actually exists and he can benefit from his remaining levels. Gordin can promote at 10-12 and not care because his growths suck and he really wants that AS/move boost instantly rather than a few more levels that give him almost nonexistant boosts.

It's a factor that Chiki comes in with Fire Stones not needing any EXP

what?

hate to tell you this, but Chiki eats up EXP like any other unit. Especially with Fire Stones since she needs to kill a ton of enemies just so her offense can suck less.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Rodykitty]

I think it's well established that Gordon > Chiki and Kashim > Gordon. They'll be moving around based on adjacent characters at this point.

I can see Kashim going above Elren, unless Elren's usefulness outweighs Kashim's.