The "new tier method" applied to FE4

[Rodykitty]

Wait. Tier lists have a point?

Okay. Focus.

[grandjackal]

Yes you're missing the point.

And judging by a lot of points you make, you're missing the point of a tier list in the first place.

Just saying, only reason FE7's list is the way it is is because the optional Lyn's mode is used.

But I suppose I should drop it. It's going nowhere, and the point seems to be going over my head.

Besides, I'm not great with lists, but I'd like to study character balance for various reasons. The messes I made in the FEDS topics was just to learn more about the game, I suck at the Jugdral games in all honesty, only FE I can really argue about is FE3, and even then I'd probably suck at it. I'm surprised I'm even being taken remotely seriously here. XD

[Clonez]

Dew is better. PERFECTLY BALANCED GROWTHS FOR HIS KIDS.

Too bad he's nearly useless before his class change.

??????

[TheEnd]

??????

Older FEs board.

I'm surprised I'm even being taken remotely seriously here. XD

Postcounts. It's all about postcounts.

[Rodykitty]

Just saying, only reason FE7's list is the way it is is because the optional Lyn's mode is used.

And why is that such a bad thing? Why is it even applicable to arbitrary limits? Lyn's mode isn't even limited to ranking, since it can be used to an advantage even if you're not trying to rank the game.

It's like saying that the only way the FEDS tier list is the way it is, is because we level characters up. If we didn't level up characters, it would look way different.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

And why is that such a bad thing? Why is it even applicable to arbitrary limits? Lyn's mode isn't even limited to ranking, since it can be used to an advantage even if you're not trying to rank the game.

It's like saying that the only way the FEDS tier list is the way it is, is because we level characters up. If we didn't level up characters, it would look way different.

Because it only really effects the use of two characters in the reality of it all, those being Erk and Florina. Just not doing Lyn's Mode is faster. Especially with how boring Lyn's mode is...

But you guys return to the subject at hand. This is getting out of hand.

[Rodykitty]

Because it only really effects the use of two characters in the reality of it all, those being Erk and Florina. Just not doing Lyn's Mode is faster. Especially with how boring Lyn's mode is...

Not doing Lyn's mode =/= efficiency.

Lyn's mode does nothing to hinder Eliwood/Hector mode units. It can only help you, especially the Lyn mode units that hang around before Lyn shows up again. Having a decent leveled Matthews is one of the biggest favors you can do yourself for starting a new HHM file.

Besides that, if it isn't considered, all it would do is make a bunch of units lower on the tier list, except for maybe Rath who doesn't really benefit from Lyn's mode at all. It just isn't useful information.

[grandjackal]

Not doing Lyn's mode =/= efficiency.

Lyn's mode does nothing to hinder Eliwood/Hector mode units. It can only help you, especially the Lyn mode units that hang around before Lyn shows up again. Having a decent leveled Matthews is one of the biggest favors you can do yourself for starting a new HHM file.

Besides that, if it isn't considered, all it would do is make a bunch of units lower on the tier list, except for maybe Rath who doesn't really benefit from Lyn's mode at all. It just isn't useful information.

It's still optional. That's all I can say. That was my point to begin with.

So can we just drop it? We obviously won't agree on this.

[Rodykitty]

It's still optional. That's all I can say. That was my point to begin with.

Again with missing the focus of tier lists.

Just because it's optional doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the optimal version of the character, especially if it's not hindering other characters at all, only helping them.

So can we just drop it?

No. Edited February 1, 2009 by Chainey

[dondon151]

Offtopic: base level Matthew is still good in HHM. Extra levels won't help him 1-round nor will it help him survive more than 1 hit from lancers.

[Rodykitty]

I'm proven wrong on the Matthew part.

But my point stands.

[grandjackal]

Again with missing the focus of tier lists.

Just because it's optional doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the optimal version of the character, especially if it's not hindering other characters at all, only helping them.

Same with battle saves. You don't have to, but it's there, why not use it? It's simple, it's easy, and makes things MUCH more efficient. Only difference is instead of being an option for 10 missions, it's an option that's with you the whole time that makes the game so much simpler. Be it making some units stronger or being able to plan out each turn without consequence, it still makes the game easier and more efficient.

No.

Lol.

EDIT: And I TOLD you it doesn't help Matthew XD

Edited February 1, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Same with battle saves. You don't have to, but it's there, why not use it? It's simple, it's easy, and makes things MUCH more efficient. Only difference is instead of being an option for 10 missions, it's an option that's with you the whole time that makes the game so much simpler. Be it making some units stronger or being able to plan out each turn without consequence, it still makes the game easier and more efficient.

Okay. That's making a player's strategy easier. So what? Tier lists are about which characters are the most useful, not what the player is doing to beat the game.

EDIT: And I TOLD you it doesn't help Matthew XD

My point still stands. Edited February 1, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Okay. That's making a player's strategy easier. So what? Tier lists are about which characters are the most useful, not what the player is doing to beat the game.

My point still stands.

Because Lyn's mode CAN be abused, but it is chosen NOT to. The white gem is more important than having a killface early. The game gives you a reason NOT to abuse a mode that can be abused for HHM. Battle Saves however, make the game a cakewalk since you can just trial and error the game. Battle saves don't just make the game efficient, they make the game unable to actually beat you. Ranked game or efficient play, battle saves make the game fail safe. Lyn's Mode is fair, battle saves is kiddy rails. What's the point of efficient play when you'll just use battle saves to win all the time? You can pull off unrealistic feats with battle saves, not just ensure you play efficiently. I had it so Lex!Skasha could defend Lenster from the javelin cav siege with the mage knight, the 3 sisters AND Ishtar by himself with nothing more than a thunder blade and a silver claymore by himself with the help of Lana's Libro every now and then. My whole army could continue to Conote without worry, they quickly took out general Muhammud's army (at least I think that's his name) because I had more units to spare, and they continued to take out the rest of the map. It was a completely unrealistic way to handle the situation, but it's efficient, right? It makes chance a nil factor. Fire Emblem without chance being a factor is just a game of "Watch Me Bulldoze the Enemy with No Effort".

The point is, battle saves make ANYTHING efficient and thus makes the game trial and error rather than actually thinking it through.

FE4, Geneology of the Holy Mulligan

[Rodykitty]

And once again, you are failing to understand what tier lists are about.

They're a list of character rankings of who is most useful. This shouldn't be hard to comprehend. Battle saves are not going to magically change the focus of tier lists just because they make the game easy. It certainly hasn't changed FE4 tier lists.

You also act like other games FE games can't be abused and completely trivialized, yet those games have tier lists.

[grandjackal]

And once again, you are failing to understand what tier lists are about.

They're a list of character rankings of who is most useful. This shouldn't be hard to comprehend. Battle saves are not going to magically change the focus of tier lists just because they make the game easy. It certainly hasn't changed FE4 tier lists.

You also act like other games FE games can't be abused and completely trivialized, yet those games have tier lists.

I'm aware of other abuses, but games like FE7 with their ranks would at least reduce abuse. If you're abusing, then why bother thinking of efficiency? Even Lyn's mode doesn't magically make awesome units unless you sit there for hours to get one of the cavs to level 20 promoted, punching Lundgren in the face over many hours...Staff abuse would waste turns (though the turns you can afford are fair, not like those will magically make staff guys suddenly launch to top level). Boss abuse is one, but again wouldn't count as efficient, which seems to be the whole point of these arguments. They make the game easier, yet battle saves are simply ignored for doing the same thing. Why? It doesn't waste turn counts? Well considering we can't fail with battle saves, we might as well measure it by save counts or with a stopwatch. There's no such thing as efficiency if you can't fail in the first place. Other things are abusable and trivialize the game sure, but they count against efficient play because they waste turns. Savestates don't count against turns, they just waste time to readjust every move until it works. Those other tier lists do exist, but they don't involve abuse, do they? In efficient play, only thing that could actually trivialize the game are characters (Just make FE9 Titania, FE10 Black Knight, Naila, Haar, Titania, the royals or FEDS Zagaro do it.), or gameplay aspects (battle saves).

This time, the point wasn't about the tier list, it was about the game in general. Why even have a list if you're just gonna battle save your way through the game? With battle saves, anything you can do counts as efficiency as long as you manipulate it to work. Only thing in your way is the assload of time it would take to make it work. Last I recall tier lists allowing abuse are only abuses you can get away with. FE4 is one of them that COULD be one that allows near no abuse aside from maybe staff (which how they work, cannot be helped in any FE), but battle save abuse you can just get away with scott free the whole game. The warp staff CAN'T be used everywhere this time, limited character money avoids the problem of just sending a dude with a holy weapon from just going in and soloing maps since once it breaks, they aren't completely invincible. But there are the battle saves...making sure you can't lose with anyone ever.

I'm aware Fire Emblem babies you, but FE4's method of it is so easy to avoid compared to the warp staff in other games and overpowered solo units in some. FE4 units are strong, but they aren't invincible. Besides, I gave reasonable times for saves to work. Not like I'm telling you to flat out not use them. Just enough so the whole entire game isn't badly trivialized.

To think this post was longer than I had intended...

[Rodykitty]

This time, the point wasn't about the tier list, it was about the game in general.

Then why are you in this topic? This is a tier list topic.

I'm not going to respond to your other arguments because of this.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Then why are you in this topic? This is a tier list topic.

I'm not going to respond to your other arguments because of this.

...You serious?

Screw it then. No point in arguing about a game where you just battle save abuse the game and win anyways.

[Dat Nick]

Please play the damn game before saying that kind of thing.

played the damn game

Got him Thunder ASAP, which nobody else wanted

Let him kill stuff, which he did with little trouble since he actually has good offense

Let him borrow the Speed Ring, the only ones with crappy speed at that time don't have pursuit, nobody's gonna mind, and he doesn't even need the ring that often

watched him become epic win after promotion for move+canto

noted how since we're throwing rankings out, Azel's move before promotion becomes less of an issue

ayup

[dondon151]

And yet, we're both in agreement that mounted units are so much better than foot units...

[Dat Nick]

Exactly why Azel is w1n after promotion

[Mekkah]

Can you guys stop fucking up my thread with your off-topic bullshit? It really pisses me off.

Again, look at what I'm making tier lists for. Individual chapters. What is Azel in the first few chapters? A unit that has the durability of Fin minus Prayer, the offense of Sigurd and the mobility of Ardan. What does that make him? Crap everything except offense.

Just because there's no ranks doesn't mean I throw efficiency out of the window. If that were true, FE8 tier lists would be impossible, and that kind of thing. If you want to whine about that, do it in another thread, after reading vykan's post in this thread. Until then, get the fuck out of my thread or contribute something.

[grandjackal]

Can you guys stop fucking up my thread with your off-topic bullshit? It really pisses me off.

Again, look at what I'm making tier lists for. Individual chapters. What is Azel in the first few chapters? A unit that has the durability of Fin minus Prayer, the offense of Sigurd and the mobility of Ardan. What does that make him? Crap everything except offense.

Just because there's no ranks doesn't mean I throw efficiency out of the window. If that were true, FE8 tier lists would be impossible, and that kind of thing. If you want to whine about that, do it in another thread, after reading vykan's post in this thread. Until then, get the fuck out of my thread or contribute something.

I wanted to drop the argument like three times, but Chainey wanted to continue for some reason...but I'd be more than happy to drop it and I apologize.

For chapter 1, I think Dew should go above Azel for nabbing enough gold to make sure Aideen never has to worry about money for a while. He can sit on the lone forest nearby while Aideen escapes, the axe guys surround him, only one guy able to hit him and it's a miserable chance no less. They constantly rearrange themselves so he can just steal a crapload of gold. Getting a lot of gold for Aideen, a healer who cannot enter the arena, would LOVE to have a lot of gold early on. Might get a level too while he's chipping at them, not to mention keeping them out of the forest and leaving you an easy ambush with cover from said forest. Nabs plentiful gold for Aideen, distracts enemy to be an even easier target,and can essentially dodgetank the axers in this chapter in forests as he'll be untouchable then.

Azel? Gets a kill, maybe two if he's lucky at the first squad, spends the rest of the chapter trying to catch up...I'd easily say Dew does you a bigger favor here than Azel. For once, I was brief with a point...Yay me!

[Mekkah]

Dew in the spirit forest is not going to get attacked at all (enemies don't attack you if they have 0 hit, at least not those), so he will essentially just cause useless clogs there. And in that forest, Azel is going to be attacked and likely one-rounding...but overall it seems reasonable to put Dew > Azel for this map.

[grandjackal]

Dew in the spirit forest is not going to get attacked at all (enemies don't attack you if they have 0 hit, at least not those), so he will essentially just cause useless clogs there. And in that forest, Azel is going to be attacked and likely one-rounding...but overall it seems reasonable to put Dew > Azel for this map.

Forgot about that...but he can still nab extra money there at least. Azel also can't take two shots because even in the forest, he isn't dodging well. Two shots, Azel takes a dirt nap. Sure, the enemy density isn't close together, but he still needs to be walled off. Lets not forget the time it would take for Azel to get there in the first place. Speaking of low enemy density, Dew won't be causing huge clogs, considering the enemy isn't exactly tight nit. With how many guys have range now (Fin, Cuan, Midayle, Lex, Azel even), having a couple guys to take out a single axe guy won't be too troublesome. Another point for Dew, he can be a wall for Azel to do his job without worry.

Just to clarify is all.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Grandjackal