The "new tier method" applied to FE4

[Paperblade]

Can you guys stop fucking up my thread with your off-topic bullshit? It really pisses me off.

Again, look at what I'm making tier lists for. Individual chapters. What is Azel in the first few chapters? A unit that has the durability of Fin minus Prayer, the offense of Sigurd and the mobility of Ardan. What does that make him? Crap everything except offense.

Just because there's no ranks doesn't mean I throw efficiency out of the window. If that were true, FE8 tier lists would be impossible, and that kind of thing. If you want to whine about that, do it in another thread, after reading vykan's post in this thread. Until then, get the fuck out of my thread or contribute something.

He doesn't even have Sigurd level offense because he can't double Bow users. Heck, Fin also has better durability even without Prayer because he has like 6 more Defense.

Anyway, the major difference between this tier list and a ranked tier list is we don't give brownie points to garbage units because "Hey EXP rank".

On an unrelated note, does anyone happen to have my enemy stats for FE4? I'm pretty sure the link on FEFF is dead, and I don't have access to them anymore because of a very unfortunate event a couple months ago.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Paperblade

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

I have the Excel document saved to my computer. Tell me your email address and I'll send it to you.

[Paperblade]

tomatobisque@gmail.com

Thanks.

Also, more on topic. I'm pretty sure that Holyn has one rounding issues even with a Luna proc in Chapter 2, but he has much better durability so I'm not sure if Ayra being able to one round liek 36% of the time vs. any generic whereas Holyn can only do it 36% of the time vs. like 7/10ths of the ones he fights (it's extremely unlikely that unmounted units will fight many, if any of the armors before the first castle, and the only armors after that they'd actually fight are at the next castle) is a huge advantage considering that Holyn doesn't die when looked at funny.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Paperblade

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

I believe Aideen should be the last one in lower mid in Ch.2. Once one is done with Anphony, she should have caught up by then to Warp other units to the home castle or Heirhein.

[Mekkah]

Perhaps it would be prudent to split up each chapter in runs from castle to castle, seeing as the environment differs so much. For example, Alec and Midir are useful as sidekicks on the huge rush to Heirhein in Ch2, but after that they're no longer all you have available on the frontline. Outside of the spirit forest in Ch1, mounts rule, but after that they have one _less_ move than everyone. etc

[Kriemhild]

I agree with splitting the lists. After all, conquering each castle in FE4 takes as much time as a small chapter in any other FE game.

[Vykan12]

This is based on my first impression with the game.

Deirdre should be above Azel in chapter 1. Azel just flat out cannot keep up and even if he could, he has like 5 def and low hp so he won’t be amassing many kills. Deirdre, however, silences the shadow boss, who is basically like a FE8 gorgon (high atk targeting res at 3-10 range). Sure, you don’t need to “use” her to take advantage of silence, but I’d nonetheless consider it > Azel.

I have to say, I heavily disagree with your chapter 2 list (the chapter I’m currently on). First off, Aideen has absolutely no place in lame tier. With the warp staff, she can do stuff like getting Ardan the pursuit ring earlier, getting slower people like Jamka to keep up once a new castle is seized and is definitely very useful when you’ve captured the second castle and Fury & co come out as enemies.

Then for Lachesis, though she has crap move, she also joins at the front of your group basically, so her healing can see some use for a while, especially in enemy rich areas where you need to slow down to employ hit & run tactics against a large group of enemies.

Then Sylvia should be slightly higher. Definitely above Levin, since she’s responsible for half of Levin’s attacks until they rejoin the main group, at which point she might as well be FE10 Reyson. Yes, it would take a ton of time for her and Levin to re-join the main group, but there’s motivation to do so because Sylvia is implicated in a couple of conversations that net items and whatnot.

I also question Lex’s, Fin’s and Beowulf’s position, though I’ll get back to you on that since that’s more of a statistical argument and I’m writing this in between classes.

[Mekkah]

Just for Lachesis then, the reason she's in Lame is because her doing anything remotely on the front lines runs the risk of killing off the green NPC Paladins, and then you get no Knight Ring ever. She also heals a very shitty amount of hp at any rate unless she buys Relive.

Oh, and none of Sylvia's conversations in Ch2 net any items. Just a bit of love for Alec and a bit of randomness for Sigurd.

[grandjackal]

Just for Lachesis then, the reason she's in Lame is because her doing anything remotely on the front lines runs the risk of killing off the green NPC Paladins, and then you get no Knight Ring ever. She also heals a very shitty amount of hp at any rate unless she buys Relive.

Oh, and none of Sylvia's conversations in Ch2 net any items. Just a bit of love for Alec and a bit of randomness for Sigurd.

The better question is "Who gives a fuck about the Knight Ring?". It barely benefits anyone, most footsoldiers aren't moving too much a distance, they wouldn't be re-moving much to make a difference anyways.

Other reasons not using her knights this chapter is dumb dumb dumb.

- They help act as distractions.

- They help weaken some punks for you.

- SHE CAN HEAL THEM TO GAIN EXP FASTER. They ALWAYS regroup around her when there's nothing to do. We want Master Lord Lachesis faster, right? Yes, yes we do. Helps your other staff users too.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[TheEnd]

The better question is "Who gives a fuck about the Knight Ring?". It barely benefits anyone, most footsoldiers aren't moving too much a distance, they wouldn't be re-moving much to make a difference anyways.

Dancers, especially with leg ring.

[Mekkah]

Your thieves benefit immensely from the Knight Ring, so they can steal from enemies without staying in their range. It also allows people such as Lakche who have keeping-up-troubles to begin with to hit something and move on, instead of stopping dead. Seeing as a large part of gen 2 is non-mounted to begin with this is a huge boon. And yes, its effect is compounded with Leg Ring.

Also, the Knights take up EXP that others could have gotten, may kill someone with a dropable item or even kill Beowulf...and it's not like Lachesis can keep up with the group in Ch2 first part anyway.

[grandjackal]

Dancers, especially with leg ring.

Isn't the leg ring going to Sigurd for the whole lord to the castle thing?

Your thieves benefit immensely from the Knight Ring, so they can steal from enemies without staying in their range. It also allows people such as Lakche who have keeping-up-troubles to begin with to hit something and move on, instead of stopping dead. Seeing as a large part of gen 2 is non-mounted to begin with this is a huge boon. And yes, its effect is compounded with Leg Ring.

Also, the Knights take up EXP that others could have gotten, may kill someone with a dropable item or even kill Beowulf...and it's not like Lachesis can keep up with the group in Ch2 first part anyway.

1. Pirate Sword goes to Holyn to get money to give to Bridget to pass down to her kid for easier lolIchival use, 2. Thieves in general should be picking hte pockets of stragglers instead of in the middle of battle, as most Gen 1 battles have mounted dudes that can run around a wall and pigstick him. 3. Yes, and Celice would like to have the leg ring to get to those castles faster.

As for the knights. 1. They can't attack the dark mage boss or Shagall, and they sure as hell aren't killing Volts or the dude with the Knight Killer unless by freak accident. 2. It's more the exp is going to Lachesis when she heals them from their wounds of battle which is MUCH easier on her and makes killing these huge forces easier and more manageable, and 3. We won't miss Beowulf. If we're going by the efficeincy standard, him robbing our main man of 10,000 for a Fin with swords and shitty skill is a crime. They're doing chip damage at best this chapter, they aren't taking a legion amount of exp. I'm not asking to have them just charge a group by themselves either, if we can do both utilizing them AND get the knights ring, all the better. Both are possible however. Just don't put a useful resource out of place when it can be used, mkay?

[Vykan12]

Just for Lachesis then, the reason she's in Lame is because her doing anything remotely on the front lines runs the risk of killing off the green NPC Paladins, and then you get no Knight Ring ever. She also heals a very shitty amount of hp at any rate unless she buys Relive.

I wasn't aware of that. At any rate those NPCs are very tanky and will at best only keep up with your mounts so Ethlin could offer them occasional healing. 58 hp, 14 def, 2 weapon types and 1-2 range are nothing to scoff at, and the AI is programmed to spread out their attacks, so keeping these suckers alive is child's play. In fact, I didn't heal them at all and they only died after the second or third full group of enemies, so my experience seems to confirm this.

Also, the Knights take up EXP that others could have gotten, may kill someone with a dropable item or even kill Beowulf...and it's not like Lachesis can keep up with the group in Ch2 first part anyway.

I think the benefits outweigh the rewards here. They might lower exp but also increase your team's durability by being distractors, and not dying is usually a bigger concern than simply optimizing exp gain. As for losing droppable items, simply prioritize those enemies, not really much of a hassle. As for Beowulf, Sigurd will probably recruit him since he can easily break past the NPCs and has the most money on the team due to being able to complete arenas consistently.

We won't miss Beowulf. If we're going by the efficeincy standard, him robbing our main man of 10,000 for a Fin with swords and shitty skill is a crime.

I think Beowulf is a pretty decent character actually. Obviously anyone with a mount and pursuit is bound to be useful due to massive map size, and Beowulf has some nice durability to boot.

Let's see... 38 hp and 10 def. Fin doesn't hit that until level 11, Alec takes even longer, and even Sigurd needs about 4 levels to have that kinda hp/def. So, on the contrary, Beowulf has the durability that someone like Fin needs 5 levels per chapter to reach, so I'd hardly call him expendable. Oh, and Beowulf is even more win in the damage department. 14 base str... Fin doesn't hit that until lv 18 (granted he gets a brave lance) while godly Sigurd has the same base str. From what I can tell, it would be silly not to use him, at least in this chapter.

Edit: With my second experience with chapter 2, I've got to say I retract my statements about Lachesis, simply because her NPC buddies are idiots who do things like launching themselves into 2 sets of enemy armies at the same time, forcing you to take risks to protect them.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Vykan12

[grandjackal]

I think Beowulf is a pretty decent character actually. Obviously anyone with a mount and pursuit is bound to be useful due to massive map size, and Beowulf has some nice durability to boot.

Let's see... 38 hp and 10 def. Fin doesn't hit that until level 11, Alec takes even longer, and even Sigurd needs about 4 levels to have that kinda hp/def. So, on the contrary, Beowulf has the durability that someone like Fin needs 5 levels per chapter to reach, so I'd hardly call him expendable. Oh, and Beowulf is even more win in the damage department. 14 base str... Fin doesn't hit that until lv 18 (granted he gets a brave lance) while godly Sigurd has the same base str. From what I can tell, it would be silly not to use him, at least in this chapter.

Edit: With my second experience with chapter 2, I've got to say I retract my statements about Lachesis, simply because her NPC buddies are idiots who do things like launching themselves into 2 sets of enemy armies at the same time, forcing you to take risks to protect them.

Well...Looking over I guess that's something I didn't realize. Still, he robs lord blue-broccoli of money. I gues I'm a bit biased due to not using him as a father and leveling him up to get his kids stronger.

As for the knights, that's if we give a damn about the Knight Ring in the first place, while the only time they're in any REAL danger is against the Knight Killer dude's squad. Otherwise it's lol free knights and lol armors. The 3rd boss's squad in this map is a bit annoying, but nothing too troublesome.

[Vykan12]

Up to chp 5 now, but then I noticed this topic doesn't have a list past chapter 2. I'd be particularly interested in how Jamka and Brigid fare, as IMO they are the best (and best balanced) archers in FE's history.

[Mekkah]

Jamka and Brigid ORKO everything they face pretty much, but that still amounts to one kill per turn usually.

[grandjackal]

Jamka and Brigid ORKO everything they face pretty much, but that still amounts to one kill per turn usually.

Still, a garunteed kill is a garunteed kill. Besides, how many people in the crew can enemy phase tank? Most of them get their ass beat or do nothing significant. Ayra can't even do it thanks to her meh defenses, so she's no better than them AND she has to go melee so if shooting star shot doesn't activate, she eats a counter. Only guys who can reliably pull it off are like Sigurd, Cuan, Lex and Holyn to an extent.

Jamka's garunteed a kill due to his accurate crit inducing killer bow and his overkill amount of skills, Bridget because lolIchival. Bridget would be doing better, as she's not as luck reliant, no matter how well secured Jamka is.

[_____]

As for the knights, that's if we give a damn about the Knight Ring in the first place, while the only time they're in any REAL danger is against the Knight Killer dude's squad. Otherwise it's lol free knights and lol armors. The 3rd boss's squad in this map is a bit annoying, but nothing too troublesome.

The third army is "nothing too troublesome?" They run right into it, take a bunch of Ballistae, arrows, swords, and fire magic to the face, and take massive damage/die. It's pretty bad.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Julius

[grandjackal]

The third army is "nothing too troublesome?" They run right into it, take a bunch of Ballistae, arrows, swords, and fire magic to the face, and take massive damage/die. It's pretty bad.

They're also easily taken down, plus the mages are in the back. Maigc won't matter if we're taking them down in one turn. Only real bad part is the ballistae, it's better than when we rush Heirhein or pushing through Zane's group.

[_____]

The Sword fighters have decent dodge, the Archers are pretty strong and accurate, and the Mages do wtfh4x damage to the brothers. There's only a limited amount of space that you can fit units in, too, and the boss with put people to sleep.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Julius

[Mekkah]

Bridget would be doing better, as she's not as luck reliant, no matter how well secured Jamka is.

Brigid does have hit issues vs the faster Ch4 enemies (I think Ch4 has the highest AS average in the game), but more importantly, she is contributing only for 2 and a bit chapters, as opposed to 4 and a bit. Though of course what you said still goes for a Ch4 specific tier list.

[grandjackal]

Brigid does have hit issues vs the faster Ch4 enemies (I think Ch4 has the highest AS average in the game), but more importantly, she is contributing only for 2 and a bit chapters, as opposed to 4 and a bit. Though of course what you said still goes for a Ch4 specific tier list.

That's what I meant.

Besides, Jamka isn't as reliant on the killer bow as Bridget is for the Ichival. In fact, he would do fine giving it to Midayle, as Bridget wants Holyn and Eden wants Midayle. Jamka's being no one's father, he's no problem using something else.

[Paperblade]

The Sword fighters have decent dodge, the Archers are pretty strong and accurate, and the Mages do wtfh4x damage to the brothers. There's only a limited amount of space that you can fit units in, too, and the boss with put people to sleep.

The Swordfighters have a mindboggling 20 Avoid, even base Ardan has 70 Hit on these guys, and that's not even factoring in that most of the terrain here is road or Charisma/Leadership. The only unit that will have hit problems is Lex (~75 hit with Sigurd+Road), but he takes jack for damage and hits like a truck. They won't even double the bros, which is pretty sad since that means they 10RKO.

Those Bowfighters are actually among the weakest enemies in the entire game, sporting a laughable 18 Attack, which is actually LESS than many Prologue enemies (the Axe users have 19-20). Sure, they might double your slower dudes, but at this point their Defense is likely high enough that other non-doubling units do as much damage in 1 attack as these guys do in 2. They 8RKO the bros, which is pretty sad since they're being 3RKO'd back by Javelins (they double because the bros will have Javelins to counter).

The mages are usually in the back due to inferior movement + positioning issues, plus the brothers tank them better than a vast majority of your team (4HKO'd, when even Res tank Diadora is being something like 5HKO'd, and the rest of your team is being 2-3HKO'd, MAYBE 4HKO'd if you're, say, Sigurd with the Res Ring), and their rushing ahead lets them tank Sleeps for you. Plus they counter at 1-2 range, which is more than Sigurd can say.

And yes, the bros use FE4 NPC hax, which lets them counter with Javelins at range while using Swords at melee on the same phase.

Edit: And how are the Paladin bros getting so far ahead? Lachesis only has 6 Move, so it takes her a while to catch up to your mounts, and they only rush ahead if there's an enemy actually in range.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Paperblade