Who should get ambush?

[grandjackal]

Solid? Shiva has some of the lowest HP/Def stats out of the melee fighters.

I was talking about Olwen's general efficiency back then. I am not talking about Shiva's general efficiency now. I am talking about Sunlight Hit. Shiva is one of the best characters in the game, and I know that Olwen is fragile.

I should rephrase. Olwen's avoid isn't high enough for her to be taking huge amounts of enemies, but it's still enough to get a A thunder by chapter 13. Shiva's avoid is good, but it's not good enough (no one's is) to take on armies with Sunlight Hit.

Sigh.

Shiva can also frontline, despite having this some of the lowest HP/Def out of the melee fighters. Sunlight hit compounds with that and Eyrios's activation rate isn't that far off from Shiva's. Neither is their durability when Eyrios joins, and that's at equal levels AND if Shiva promoted at level 20. THIS is how Eryios has offense, he's attacking more than one enemy a full turn. Ambush allows him some more.

Correction, Olwen's avoid is garbage, the end. We're either gimping her "offense", or we're weighing her down with a heavy as fuck weapon to have any resembling offense which puts her at so much risk she has to not be near enemies or else they tear her apart. Ambush on her means she can do just what Eyrios does, except if she misses she's just as screwed. Eyrios doesn't have to rely on luck to not suck, all Solar Shot does is backs him up. He's hardly relying on it, at least when he shows up. It just gives him something to fall back on. Olwen on the other hand is relying handily on Dime Thunder to do anything. At her join time she gets weighed down to 5 or 4 speed with fire and thunder respectively. Only thing she's doubling are anything with 1 or 0 speed. Give her wind and she's not killing. Give her Dime Thunder and she's easily killed while still not hitting with every shot. There's one wind tome we nab from the bishop in Thracia and it won't last forever. Show me the money on where we buy more.

If you're going by the get earlier use argument out of it, we sure as hell aren't giving it to Olwen then. Olwen still can't risk being on the front lines, all ambush does is make the risk a slight bit smaller. Fin would prefer it more, or Nanna with her earth sword, Mareeta with her Mareeta Blade and various sword skills. Shiva too.

Eyrios is lower than these guys on the list for ambush, but he's above Olwen because he's actually usable and still more usable than Olwen with ambush. The idea is to give resources to good people to make them better, not to bad people so they'll suck less.

I don't think there is a single point I haven't covered with Eyrios stomping Olwen at this point...if you still argue, I'll be convinced you're just messing with me just for the sake of arguing.

EDIT: Also, what Navarre said.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Seph]

Hey, guess what! If you advocate giving scrolls to Olwen when she's about to level up, why can't we give scrolls to Shiva when he's about to level up to fix his "duribility problems?"

That wasn't what I was talking about, but okay.

I don't think there is a single point I haven't covered with Eyrios stomping Olwen at this point...if you still argue, I'll be convinced you're just messing with me just for the sake of arguing.

To be fair, I'd avoid arguing with you simply because of your gigantic walls of text (you just made one yet again). We both basically repeat whatever we say, so it's just pointless. You fail to understand that Olwen makes far more use of Ambush than Eyrios.. I really have no idea why. Olwen can use it for longer, can kill things better with that 4 PC, I seriously, seriously don't get why.

I guess it's because you like Eyrios's face?

[Lord Raven]

...you're REALLY overplaying the "unreliable" argument, just so you know.

26% max is unreliable, especially when you could be putting something like Wrath on there.

You can't discredit something "unreliable" for being good just because it's "unreliable".

It can't be good if it doesn't activate reliably, right?

Ike has ridiculous avo, HP, and Def. It's hard just to damage him. Also, Aether is skill%. Ike also has good skill. This equates to epic win durability.

So... it's useless?

[grandjackal]

To be fair, I'd avoid arguing with you simply because of your gigantic walls of text (you just made one yet again). We both basically repeat whatever we say, so it's just pointless. You fail to understand that Olwen makes far more use of Ambush than Eyrios.. I really have no idea why. Olwen can use it for longer, can kill things better with that 4 PC, I seriously, seriously don't get why.

I guess it's because you like Eyrios's face?

As charming as his face is, I have not been repeating the same thing over and over. In fact, most of the time you just ignored most of my posts. Weapon rank, existing enemy phase offense, not getting killed by a sneeze, not relying on an overrated weapon AND Ambush. I've brought up a lot of stuff to prove him better and you just blow it off saying we should spoil Olwen just to make her usable with things like dragging people around for leadership and charisma (who others want as well, and we're not just going to turtle for Olwen's sake) and scrolls (which with trading around is easy, it has the same problems as FE9 and 10's Shove. It helps one unit, but it detracts from the use of another for a turn, one most likely better than Olwen). Not only does Eyrios do more things than her, he did it without sucking or needing babying to do it.

I'd rather not argue with you either, it's a headache really.

[Seph]

most of the time you just ignored most of my posts.

To be fair, if they were shorter..

Weapon rank, existing enemy phase offense, not getting killed by a sneeze, not relying on an overrated weapon AND Ambush.

Weapon rank, I posted, you ignored it. Unless I'm blind. She has to attack 20 times with Thunder. She has 3 chapters to do so. 11x, 12, 12x. I see no problems here.

Enemy phase offense and "killed by a sneeze", scrolls and Ambush. I explained that it is VERY easy to give her scrolls. It's effortless, really.

Olwen has 4 PC, therefore does not need to rely on DaimThunder. Since she targets magic, a simple Wind or Thunder can kill a lot of things on the enemy phase.

Ambush. Why she should have it over Eyrios:

- contributes to efficiency for several more chapters

- 2 DaimThunders + Holy Sword makes a great combo. Low hit is fixed by Charisma, support, leadership stars.

- improves Olwen's durability FAR more than Eyrios

- Olwen's 4 PC helps her kill things, doesn't need a second hit, converses weapon uses

There you go.

[Dat Nick]

26% max is unreliable, especially when you could be putting something like Wrath on there.

Except it's higher than 26% max since Ike doubles. Even if he didn't double it still adds up fast.

So... it's useless?

Oh, and giving the occult to Volke is any better?

Shiva has some of the lowest HP/Def stats out of the melee fighters.

...

WHAT?

it's like a 10 HP difference from Othin. Othin has godly HP anyway.

[Seph]

...

WHAT?

it's like a 10 HP difference from Othin. Othin has godly HP anyway.

Erm, that's a pretty big difference.

[Dat Nick]

You said Shiva has poor HP compared to other frontliners. That's false. If his durability is poor, Fin's must be awful.

Furthermore, you really need to stop relying on the "oh Sol doesn't activate all the time so it's unreliable and it sucks". argument. You make it seem like I'm going to have a 1 HP Shiva attack something and hope Sol activates.

[Seph]

You said Shiva has poor HP compared to other frontliners. That's false. If his durability is poor, Fin's must be awful.

Fin has two more def than Shiva at level 1 promoted.

Furthermore, you really need to stop relying on the "oh Sol doesn't activate all the time so it's unreliable and it sucks". argument. You make it seem like I'm going to have a 1 HP Shiva attack something and hope Sol activates.

You just countered yourself.

[grandjackal]

To be fair, if they were shorter..

Weapon rank, I posted, you ignored it. Unless I'm blind. She has to attack 20 times with Thunder. She has 3 chapters to do so. 11x, 12, 12x. I see no problems here.

Enemy phase offense and "killed by a sneeze", scrolls and Ambush. I explained that it is VERY easy to give her scrolls. It's effortless, really.

Olwen has 4 PC, therefore does not need to rely on DaimThunder. Since she targets magic, a simple Wind or Thunder can kill a lot of things on the enemy phase.

Ambush. Why she should have it over Eyrios:

- contributes to efficiency for several more chapters

- 2 DaimThunders + Holy Sword makes a great combo. Low hit is fixed by Charisma, support, leadership stars.

- improves Olwen's durability FAR more than Eyrios

- Olwen's 4 PC helps her kill things, doesn't need a second hit, converses weapon uses

There you go.

I meant Eyrios's weapon rank. Has strength that exists and can use plenty of swords to good use. Also with thunder, she's only double attacking things with 0 speed. Enemies don't fail that bad when she shows up aside from a couple armors. So much for the 4 PCR. By the way, PCR activates on the second attack. There's really only gonna be few few she'll double with fire and thunder, is still gonna get attacked before the PCR hit with wind, and if she's landing two shots of Dime Thunder, critical won't matter meaning she has to hit the second shot anyways AND weighs her down so bad she can't be near the front lines with it. Since she'll get hit with ambush anyways unless she uses Dime Thunder anyways, it appears she gets nothing out of it anyways aside from a tactic that requires luck to be on your side so yes, she DOES rely on Dime Thunder. Not as dependable as just plain being durable. That's saying without solar shot too. All you did was prove how much an arch knight she is.

-Dime Thunder is overrated and Holy Sword just makes magic enemies ignore her and endanger troops that DON'T have all for...the ability to use her lousy strength to attack mages with and give her vulnerability to any physical ranged enemies she can no longer counter with this not ranged sword that also weighs her down and comes so late it doesn't even matter. Congratulations. You just made her worse by equipping this weapon. By the time this damn thing shows up, it doesn't help her at all since she won't be killing heroes and berserkers with it and snipers can now take pot shots at her without worry.

- You're mistaking improving her durability with relying on accuracy rather than dodge. Better to rely on, but still doesn't compare to just being durable.

- I just proved how her PCR is useless.

- Requires squires to follow her around to switch around her equipment and hand her scrolls for when she levels up, not only so she can even compare to Eyrios (not being better mind you, just being EQUAL to him), but detracting use from characters who could be doing something better like FIGHTING so NO, she ISN'T contributing to the efficiency of chapters before. Well, at least not in a POSITIVE way...

- She isn't going to be around leaders and charisma people all the time, enemies having leadership too AND terrain existing, she will not have perfect accuracy unless these people follow her around like her personal minstrels or she turtles around them, killing the point of her mobility.

- Her concerning thunderbolt...She's not doing jack in the chapter she joins in, Pahn's chapter we're just warping Laura so no one's doing anything that chapter, we're rushing the hell out of chapter 13 so she's doing little at best here. 14, she'll be doing plenty. Earliest she's getting thunderbolt rank is late in chapter 14, which is too little too late, or chapter 15. If you're using something like thunderbolt in chapter 15, I'm just gonna laugh at you.

Eyrios on the other hand needs no squires or minstrels, has weapon rank and stats to make good use out of them, can actually realistically frontline and doesn't rely on fancy weapons or needing to be taught skills, as he has 2 perfectly good skills he doesn't really have to rely on (until later). He can still be taught that skill though, and put it to good enough use, as opposed to Olwen needing to rely on it and STILL doesn't make her foolproof.

Don't argue Ambush for Olwen. Argue Continue, THAT'S a skill she makes better use out of.

I wouldn't type so long a post if there weren't so many reasons Olwen fails even WITH Ambush...

Edited February 28, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Lord Raven]

Except it's higher than 26% max since Ike doubles. Even if he didn't double it still adds up fast.

It's 26% exactly, probably just dictates that it's going to be around 40%. And this is just endgame, he has like 18 or so Skill once he can get Aether IIRC.

Oh, and giving the occult to Volke is any better?

Who says I'm giving it to Volke? I'm saying Ike makes better use of more reliable skills than Aether. You don't even have to use all of the Occult skills.

[Dat Nick]

Fin has two more def than Shiva at level 1 promoted.

oh wow

that's total WIN compared to Shiva

You just countered yourself.

...what?

It's 26% exactly, probably just dictates that it's going to be around 40%.

You're REALLY trying to argue that 40% per round for an effect so win is "unreliable"?

I'm saying Ike makes better use of more reliable skills than Aether.

Name some.

"resolve, wrath, vant-"

That other people don't want.

You don't even have to use all of the Occult skills.

why wouldn't you?

Edited February 28, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Former Guest]

that's total WIN compared to Shiva

Finn has Prayer and better supports, moron. Shanan's debating is nearsighted but at least he's on the right track here........

[Lord Raven]

You're REALLY trying to argue that 40% per round for an effect so win is "unreliable"?

It's certainly not reliable. It's not always going to be 40% per attack though, especially at the beginning of promotion where it's probably something like 30% per attack.

Name some.

"resolve, wrath, vant-"

That other people don't want.

Well, lets see. If we're comparing absolute best characters (Ike on team + most efficient team), Ike's going to be among the weakest of them -- or is likely to be so -- and thus will have little competition in boosting his own performance. Bearing in mind, Ike's performance is not bad, but in an efficient playthrough, Ike is very likely to get it, and it's generally more reliable than Aether.

why wouldn't you?

If you have a spare one and a char doesn't have skills, an Occult scroll doesn't hurt. But having to use them as soon as you have chars that can make minor use of it and start out with an unreliable hit rate with it -- you definitely don't need it then.

[dondon151]

I meant Eyrios's weapon rank. Has strength that exists and can use plenty of swords to good use.

No one gives a damn about strength when magic is available and kills everything better.

Also with thunder, she's only double attacking things with 0 speed. Enemies don't fail that bad when she shows up aside from a couple armors. So much for the 4 PCR. By the way, PCR activates on the second attack. There's really only gonna be few few she'll double with fire and thunder, is still gonna get attacked before the PCR hit with wind, and if she's landing two shots of Dime Thunder, critical won't matter meaning she has to hit the second shot anyways AND weighs her down so bad she can't be near the front lines with it.

By the way, PCC works with swords and doubles base might, so Olwen can equip a sword, double with it, and kill with PCC. PCC also works with tomes (like Wind) and she won't get hit on player phase. On enemy phase, it means that, if not being attacked by more than 3 enemies at once, she won't have to use Daim Thunder to kill and live. PCC does matter, no matter how screwed up your logic is.

Not as dependable as just plain being durable. That's saying without solar shot too.

This is only when Eyrios has a sword, by the way, so either he's eating some attacks without countering on enemy phase and hopefully landing Sol or he's countering attacks but with no chance of HP recovery.

All you did was prove how much an arch knight she is.

Please. Stop. With. The. Arch. Knight. Analogies. Olwen has 1-2 range and an arch knight does not (an arch knight also has worse offense).

-Dime Thunder is overrated and Holy Sword just makes magic enemies ignore her and endanger troops that DON'T have all

How is this possibly bad for Olwen? lol! Holy Sword makes Olwen so broken that she won't be scratched by magic enemies!

for...the ability to use her lousy strength to attack mages with and give her vulnerability to any physical ranged enemies she can no longer counter with this not ranged sword that also weighs her down and comes so late it doesn't even matter. Congratulations. You just made her worse by equipping this weapon. By the time this damn thing shows up, it doesn't help her at all since she won't be killing heroes and berserkers with it and snipers can now take pot shots at her without worry.

I don't think you even know what Holy Sword does. Holy Sword gives Olwen effective damage against horses. Holy Sword doubles her normal damage output with a sword. Holy Sword gives Olwen 20 crit on the first two strikes and 80 crit on the second two. Holy Sword gives Olwen significant higher concrete durability against magic units and higher general durability thanks to Prayer. "You just made her worse by equipping this weapon" is a laughable claim. Oh, she can also use it in every chapter that it's available. You can deploy her in endgame without her horse and she still has those two weapons, but Eyrios is just an amputated mage with 0 PCC and no staves.

Of course, Holy Sword doesn't make Olwen the goddess of the battlefield, but it definitely improves her... lol...

- I just proved how her PCR is useless.

I just "proved" how PCC can't possibly be useless (btw this made me laugh because PCR = polymerase chain reaction >.>)

- Requires squires to follow her around to switch around her equipment and hand her scrolls for when she levels up, not only so she can even compare to Eyrios (not being better mind you, just being EQUAL to him), but detracting use from characters who could be doing something better like FIGHTING so NO, she ISN'T contributing to the efficiency of chapters before. Well, at least not in a POSITIVE way...

Keep in mind that you can trade with multiple characters per turn, that everyone else will be staying relatively close, and that any character upon level up will usually end up having 1-3 scrolls depending on how many are available at that point. Also, Olwen is definitely not hurting efficiency. Aside from the fact that no character can hurt efficiency (one can only be less efficient than a replacement), Olwen brings to the table a lot of move with some pretty damn potent offense and passable durability. She's one of your better characters when she joins.

- She isn't going to be around leaders and charisma people all the time, enemies having leadership too AND terrain existing, she will not have perfect accuracy unless these people follow her around like her personal minstrels or she turtles around them, killing the point of her mobility.

So? She still has access to those bonuses. Her 10 avo/hit/crt/cev support from Leaf, which Eyrios doesn't get, comes to mind.

- Her concerning thunderbolt...She's not doing jack in the chapter she joins in, Pahn's chapter we're just warping Laura so no one's doing anything that chapter, we're rushing the hell out of chapter 13 so she's doing little at best here. 14, she'll be doing plenty. Earliest she's getting thunderbolt rank is late in chapter 14, which is too little too late, or chapter 15. If you're using something like thunderbolt in chapter 15, I'm just gonna laugh at you.

Warping Lara means you're not getting Trewd and you're not getting some of the goodies in 12x. "Rushing the hell" in 13 still means that Olwen does stuff (IIRC Glade can kill the enemy general kind of fast and then there's the crapload of reinforcements from the north that you have to face), and I'd imagine Bolting would come in handy in 14x.

Eyrios on the other hand needs no squires or minstrels, has weapon rank and stats to make good use out of them, can actually realistically frontline and doesn't rely on fancy weapons or needing to be taught skills, as he has 2 perfectly good skills he doesn't really have to rely on (until later). He can still be taught that skill though, and put it to good enough use, as opposed to Olwen needing to rely on it and STILL doesn't make her foolproof.

First, not having to rely on fancy weapons would be a point for Eyrios if anyone else can use Daim Thunder, but as it stands, Olwen using DT/HS doesn't count against her. She doesn't need Ambush either, but it improves her more than every other character. Eyrios with Ambush means he must use a sword on enemy phase to make use of it, leaving him open to attacks from 2 range, and I don't think he even KOs with 2 shots from a Master/Hero Sword, so he's not even getting anything from attacking first. No one said that Ambush makes Olwen foolproof, but it does let her murder stuff on enemy phase with relatively little risk.

Don't argue Ambush for Olwen. Argue Continue, THAT'S a skill she makes better use out of.

Let's conveniently forget that Continue activates less often than Daim Thunder missing. A lot less. And that Continue is completely redundant with DT/HS. And that it doesn't help her durability on enemy phase at all.

Let me reiterate a couple of things:

- Olwen gets access to Bolting earlier than anyone else, for whatever that's worth. I don't think anyone arguing pro-Olwen has even made it out to be a big deal, but those arguing anti-Olwen sure have...

- Sol is cool, but Eyrios either gets that or 1-2 range. Does he want to be a bad lance-less paladin or does he want to counter more stuff without healing?

- Olwen's PCC is there and helps her a lot, because she's not using Daim Thunder or Holy Sword all the time. It's definitely considerable on player phase. I'd even say that the virtues of PCC alone make her sword offense greater than Eyrios's, despite the loss in strength.

- Eyrios's higher strength matters little when he's still doing more damage with Wind than a Longsword or something.

- Olwen's durability is passable. She also gets a horsie and joins earlier than Eyrios. Having a horsie is pretty important. It makes her good at that point in the game.

- Eyrios isn't even guaranteed to exist, although I think this shouldn't matter when debating him...

- Olwen is entitled to cool stuff to rape things with whereas Eyrios has to compete with others.

Edited March 1, 2009 by dondon151

[General Spoon]

dondon, I'm not quoting your post because of the retarded way you countered the points and the retarded quote stripping. I'll just tell you right now that Solar Shot can activate with any weapon, not just swords. Also, nobody gives a shit about Trewd.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Navarre

[dondon151]

dondon, I'm not quoting your post because of the retarded way you countered the points and the retarded quote stripping. I'll just tell you right now that Solar Shot can activate with any weapon, not just swords. Also, nobody gives a shit about Trewd.

I don't see how my counters are more retarded than anyone else's (especially after the 2 pages of this Sol and Aether nonsense), I prefer responding in the quotes because it saves work for me (it's also easier to read), and unless the name "Sun Sword" is intentionally misleading, then Sol works just like it did in FE4. Though if Sol does work with tomes, then I'll rescind every comment related to them. Everything else still stands regardless.

Not recruiting Trewd lowers your rank by one grade and you miss a Silver Sword. IIRC he's also a fairly decent unit. By the way, this counter is totally retarded.

Edited March 1, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

dondon, I'm not quoting your post because of the retarded way you countered the points and the retarded quote stripping.

Is it really that hard to copy+paste? It's not like he tl;drs every point.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, that's my job.

1. Ranks? We're playing efficiently here, playing each chapter for what's best for the team. Ranks is just the game measuring how good a speed run/ RNG abuse-fest is. Trewd is not worth the thief staff getting busted and having many a treasure chest looted and ran off with, and neither is his silver sword. It's not like there's a lot of exp here either. Seriously, no one gives a damn about Trewd.

2. Thanks to Eyrios's stats, he can use things like status and magic swords. Something like the sleep sword for a nifty things, magic swords for physical close combat and magic ranged. Lets him counter both, has durability so he won't get slaughtered just from being outside...

3. I know how criticals work and that PCR takes effect on the SECOND attack, not the first. She's still gonna get hit, which is her MAJOR problem. PCR lets her crit the enemy that just smacked her, more enemies come in...How is her good PCR good now?

4. Wanna know WHY he can go out and actually take a couple counters? He has this thing called durability, I'm sure you've heard of it...

5. I stop with the arch knight anaologies when her durability stops sucking so bad she has to ACT like one.

6. The holy sword may make her a magic tank, but the enemies aren't stupid in this game. They'll see she has resistance and not attack her and attack more vulnerable units, rendering her magitanking ability useless. Also removes her response for PHYSICAL ranged units. You know, the snipers with silvers and the heroes with master weapons...

7. Ok great, the damn sword is great against the non-existing horses after the chapter you get it from Reinhart, the chapter with the enemy having holy hell leadership. We could have just kept Eyrios alive and skipped this hellhole of a chapter, but apparently we want to get Olwen a shitty useless weapon...Did I mention this has no effect on how bad snipers and heroes with master weapons would rape her?

8. 0 PCR can be a blessing in disguise as a note. It means he has less a chance to pull off an accidental crit and attract MORE attention to himself, while countering enemies on the enemy phase so your team can just easily rip through them. It's called tanking. He doesn't need solar shot to do it, but it helps. PCR is great if you have durability to put it to good use. Olwen just doesn't have it. Not by a long shot.

9. Those people trading her scrolls could have gone out and fought 1-3 people, but apparently we want them to go and give their shit to Olwen for one risky chance of killing one person with dime thunder, not doing a lot of damage with wind or not doubling with fire or thunder, the enemy phase comes and they bitchslap her into oblivion. Congratulations, you just gimped us to babysit one unit who doesn't get any better any time soon. How is that not hurting efficiency? It's like FE9's shove in a way, except it can lag behind more than one unit.

10. Boo-hoo, Eyrios doesn't have access to one bonus, shoot me in the face the world is over. Did I mention Eyrios puts the boosts to better use because he can actually stay around to put them to good use instead of hiding behind the front lines.

11. Solar Shot works with magic in this game too. He has nice speed when he joins too, so basic things won't weigh him down. Olwen needs training before she can pull that off and she's STILL worse by the time he shows up.

12. Hey, did you know Dime Thunder doesn't have perfect accuracy? Dime Thunder is luck reliant, durability is concrete. Which would I rather rely on? hmmm...

All Ambush does is makes her a risky option to tank, which if she screws up she will get killed in a blink. It helps her, but not by enough. Eyrios on the other hand has a master sword at least. With Ambush and solar shot, he has 2 shots to have it activate and save him from something fatal. Chances of that are slim, but the best part is he's not relying on it to have some form of enemy phase offense and just makes it better.

Why the hell not Continue? If her offense is her best part, let's make it her shining aspect! It basically increases her chances of landing her inaccurate hits better, given it activates. It gives her the option to risk attacking something she normally couldn't kill, and if it screws up she can still fall back. If she's gonna do hit and run strategies, lets make it so she damn well kills whatever she targets. She misses? She gets the chance to strike again. Third strike with wind will garuntee a kill, allows her more strikes with the stronger fire and thunder spells, four shots of Dime Thunder on the opening shot...It's her way of answering to Eyrios's Solar Shot, except it gives her an option he coulnd't dream of: Boss Killing. 2 shots of Dime Thunder is risky, but I'd say 4 on the same opening strike really ups her chances, yeah?

Only thing in her way are people who want Continue too, like Halvan and Othin and Fin...it's unfair considering Fin though, he wants everything. Greedy bastard...but still, look at her competition.

Sorry for the long post. You'll notice me doing this a lot if we continue this. I'm obsessive to detail, I always feel like I need to look over every single aspect. It's like OCD I swear.

[dondon151]

Sorry, I don't have time right now to address everything.

1. Ranks? We're playing efficiently here, playing each chapter for what's best for the team. Ranks is just the game measuring how good a speed run/ RNG abuse-fest is. Trewd is not worth the thief staff getting busted and having many a treasure chest looted and ran off with, and neither is his silver sword. It's not like there's a lot of exp here either. Seriously, no one gives a damn about Trewd.

Yeah, we don't need to recruit Dalshien either, or Olwen, or Salem, or Eyrios. In fact, we don't need any of the recruitable characters to finish the game. If you want to play efficiently, give all of your EXP to Othin and Halvan or something and watch them rape. I'm pretty sure that we're assuming everyone is recruited in these discussions, but whatever...

2. Thanks to Eyrios's stats, he can use things like status and magic swords. Something like the sleep sword for a nifty things, magic swords for physical close combat and magic ranged. Lets him counter both, has durability so he won't get slaughtered just from being outside...

Olwen can use magic swords too? And I don't understand how Sleep Sword is useful if it rapes your AS and you would rather kill a dude than put him to sleep. These swords aren't locked to Eyrios, by the way.

3. I know how criticals work and that PCR takes effect on the SECOND attack, not the first. She's still gonna get hit, which is her MAJOR problem. PCR lets her crit the enemy that just smacked her, more enemies come in...How is her good PCR good now?

8. 0 PCR can be a blessing in disguise as a note. It means he has less a chance to pull off an accidental crit and attract MORE attention to himself, while countering enemies on the enemy phase so your team can just easily rip through them. It's called tanking. He doesn't need solar shot to do it, but it helps. PCR is great if you have durability to put it to good use. Olwen just doesn't have it. Not by a long shot.

Thank you for ignoring what I said about PCC being useful on player phase. I like how theoryFE sometimes assumes that when an enemy is killed, another immediately takes his place. PCC lets Olwen kill more stuff on enemy phase than Eyrios, and this is an undeniable offensive lead. Having PCC is better than not having PCC in almost all cases.

I cannot imagine a worse argument for incompetent offense than what you just said. First, it is extremely situational that her better offense would put her at risk of dying. Second, stretching this argument to every other character on the tier list with incompetent offense completely undermines placement with respect to efficiency. Third, I don't think anyone tries to argue down Othin because he has Wrath, or Felgus/Carrion/Mareeta/Shiva for having 4-5 PCC, and frankly none of them are even durable when placed in the same theoretical situation as Olwen (chapter 14 comes to mind). "Ah damn Othin annihilated that whole row of AKs but died! Wrath sux!"

5. I stop with the arch knight anaologies when her durability stops sucking so bad she has to ACT like one.

Did you ignore Shanan's posts showing that Olwen's durability actually isn't that bad?

6. The holy sword may make her a magic tank, but the enemies aren't stupid in this game. They'll see she has resistance and not attack her and attack more vulnerable units, rendering her magitanking ability useless. Also removes her response for PHYSICAL ranged units. You know, the snipers with silvers and the heroes with master weapons...

First you claim that having good offense is a bad thing, then you claim that having good defense is a bad thing. Good defense doesn't matter because enemies would attack units with bad defense instead! Right...

You know, Olwen doesn't have to be swinging around her Holy Sword all the time. If she needs to counter 2 range then equip her 2 range weapon... lol... It's not like +10 magic helps her against melee units.

9. Those people trading her scrolls could have gone out and fought 1-3 people, but apparently we want them to go and give their shit to Olwen for one risky chance of killing one person with dime thunder, not doing a lot of damage with wind or not doubling with fire or thunder, the enemy phase comes and they bitchslap her into oblivion. Congratulations, you just gimped us to babysit one unit who doesn't get any better any time soon. How is that not hurting efficiency? It's like FE9's shove in a way, except it can lag behind more than one unit.

Are you ignoring that a unit can, get this, trade AND attack in the same turn? Enemies appear more in groups than anything, so opportunities to trade and attack happen all the time. Who the hell wastes turns just trading scrolls? I should also add that Olwen's doing good damage with Wind with or without crits just by virtue of using her magic stat for offense.

11. Solar Shot works with magic in this game too. He has nice speed when he joins too, so basic things won't weigh him down. Olwen needs training before she can pull that off and she's STILL worse by the time he shows up.

I didn't know that previously.

All Ambush does is makes her a risky option to tank, which if she screws up she will get killed in a blink. It helps her, but not by enough. Eyrios on the other hand has a master sword at least. With Ambush and solar shot, he has 2 shots to have it activate and save him from something fatal. Chances of that are slim, but the best part is he's not relying on it to have some form of enemy phase offense and just makes it better.

Without Ambush, Olwen can't even try annihilating stuff with DT on enemy phase, so it makes her a lot better in that respect. And again, why does Eyrios get the Master Sword while no one else does? And how many Master Swords are available at that point in the game? Master Sword doesn't hold a candle to DT, I'm sorry, both in that its durability is worse and its raw stats are worse. Master Sword has 10 less hit than DT and kicks a whopping 9 AS off Eyrios. I hope I don't have to repeat myself again, but Olwen's enemy phase offense is doing fine because her durability isn't that bad.

Why the hell not Continue? If her offense is her best part, let's make it her shining aspect! It basically increases her chances of landing her inaccurate hits better, given it activates. It gives her the option to risk attacking something she normally couldn't kill, and if it screws up she can still fall back. If she's gonna do hit and run strategies, lets make it so she damn well kills whatever she targets. She misses? She gets the chance to strike again. Third strike with wind will garuntee a kill, allows her more strikes with the stronger fire and thunder spells, four shots of Dime Thunder on the opening shot...It's her way of answering to Eyrios's Solar Shot, except it gives her an option he coulnd't dream of: Boss Killing. 2 shots of Dime Thunder is risky, but I'd say 4 on the same opening strike really ups her chances, yeah?

Continue is completely redundant in some cases, doesn't improve durability like Ambush does, activates unreliably, and Olwen has PCC for offense anyway. I believe I've covered this already.

Only thing in her way are people who want Continue too, like Halvan and Othin and Fin...it's unfair considering Fin though, he wants everything. Greedy bastard...but still, look at her competition.

Uh, everyone with offense worse than her would like Continue. Fred wants Continue. Glade wants Continue. Trewd wants Continue. Hicks wants Continue. And so on. Just as how Olwen gets the most marginal benefit from Ambush, she gets pretty low marginal benefit from Continue whereas a lot of other units would like that chance at an extra attack a lot more than she would.

[grandjackal]

Sweet mother of god, I stopped reading the moment you said she had awesome enemy phase offense. At least I should have, because I didn't think you'd bring up fail like Fred and Glade and dreaming we give them continue.

How many situations are there where we're trading back and forth in the middle of battle unless we're turtling and generally getting through the chapter slowly? Either you're having her finish someone off (way to make no use of her mobility by keeping her turtled. Well at least if she wasn't so fail, maybe we COULD do something more than turtling and spoon-feeding her kills like this...), or the situation is that she TRIED to attack, but MISSED! Which she will do quite often.

NO she CAN'T use magic swords! Why? SWORD RANK! She has a C and 5 strength. Lololololol. Reason I brought up magic swords by the way, is because they do PHYSICAL damage up close and MAGIC at range. He's 2 points off with magic being the weaker of the two. So he can not only do actual damage physically, it gives him an excellent weapon to attack more efficiently on enemy phase. Weighs him down by a pathetically small amount, has great speed to go with it...he helps your team easily rip through groups, as opposed to Olwen attacking one punk a turn and might not even kill them. Sleep swords make it easier to capture. So he having them means to make capturing easy and getting free shit, magic swords for all around great enemy phase offense thanks to durability, access to Armorslayers, Rapiers, Silver Swords, status swords...All of these, Olwen cannot use. They are not locked to him, but that doesn't mean he can't use them. Olwen doesn't have teh rank. She can't use them.

Funny thing about FE theory is that every now and then, we seem to run into goons that think there's only one enemy at a time. That, I should inform you, is bullshit in this game. Her durability isn't bad? He gave her two levels where even 1 would be pushing it, AND against the worst enemy in the first chapter she doesn't get utterly buttfucked in. ESPECIALLY the chapter where he got the enemy data, chapter 13. Tons of enemies there. She can't use thunderstorm right away, so those ballistae and starting arch knights will just have their way with her if she uses anything but wind. Wind by the way at a reasonable level, she can't kill the javelin armor knights without a crit! Where's that god offense now!? How do you screw up killing armor knights with magic? They'll counter her too anyways, so even with PCR, she's still eating a javelin. She can crit easy though, but on the second attack...meaning it only has any meaning after being attacked, or being a coward and running away after attacking. Ya know, like AN ARCH KNIGHT! Even with wind equipped, they'll have around 50-60 acc on her. There's plenty of them too. That's just against the worst unit on that map! 50-60 accuracy as a note, is pretty good. It's why that whole "going B route for the Pugi is incredibly stupid" argument a couple pages back (and it is a stupid reason to go B route). Try Dime Thunder, and I'll bring up she has a terrible 83 hit with that thing. The armors aren't 0 speed here (they still don't have much, but to the point), they have around what...6 avoid? Not only does that mean she's not doubling outside of wind (which she won't kill with without a crit), it also means she's reduced to around 77 acc. With how bad her durability is, she will still miss. Especially with the sheer number of units on that map. If she misses, she has 5 avoid to work with and 0 speed. Armors aren't the only units there either. Forest terrain in the chapter she joins in gimps her accuracy even more, 12x we're just warping Laura to Pahn chapter 13 she's doing little and not doing anything well either, 14...she's doing fine as it's a defense chapter where it's ok to turtle there, and 14x....no way in hell. Pegasi have speed and double her poor durability to death. She'd have 2 levels at best by chapter 15. Level 5, and Eyrios statistically beats the hell out of her when she's 2 levels ABOVE HIM just by showing up! Why not recruit Eyrios and get his tasty equipment when we can just keep Olwen in her cell and only miss out on a weapon only she can use along with not having to worry about her suiciding?

I don't remember saying wrath sucks. In fact, you got it backwards. Wrath rocks!...on OTHIN! I haven't seen people try to argue up MIRANDA because of wrath! Wanna know why? If she kills with the wrath, she's attracting more attention to her WHEN SHE CAN'T TAKE THE SHOTS! Wrath isn't good just because it's called wrath. Same with Ambush. Just because it's ambush doesn't mean it'll just become a miracle cure for Olwen. Durability goes a long way to make skills great. Othin is great because he has it and the durability to not rely on dodge, teh same with Halvan and Ambush. Ambush is great if you're durable...Durable being the key word.

You apparently cannot grasp what enemy phase offense is. The holy sword would be great if enemies were stupid and didn't have shit like rewarp by the time you get the damn thing. She COULD magic tank, if anything was stupid enough to tink her with magic. Unfortunately, the AI in this game is quite excellent. They'll just ignore her. so her offense is now WORSE due to LESS enemies she can counter. Can't counter magic because they're busy not being stupid in targeting someone with a buttload of magic, and now physical range units are attacking her without worry because she can't throw the sword at them to counter. The point of defense is to take many attacks to defend your team and then deal damage back. The holy sword is the worst defensive weapon in the game. Instead of making her a magic tank, it just makes the enemy flat out ignore her and eliminates any enemy phase offense she had (which is close to none) AND makes her MORE vulnerable now that ranged physical fighters can attack her without worry. Yes, this "defensive" weapon made her more vulnerable and more useless. Here's an example..FE DS General Sedgar is considered godly because he comes with defense made from heaven. That defense would be useless if the enemy could just walk right through him and targeting your more weaker units. This is what happens when the enemy has rewarp and she has the holy sword equipped. Same way Sety can't be considered a dodge tank, because if the enemy can't hit him, they'll just walk past him to hit someone they can hit. Snipers would eat her alive if she had this weapon equipped.

Her durability is not that bad? In the time between her join time and Eyrios, she'll be lucky to have gained two levels. Those two levels got her...a point in health...Leveling this slow due to bad durability to begin with, she's not growing any better...Eyrios on the other hand, has actually reasonable durability when he joins.He has 3 less health and 1 less defense than Othin, and that's at level 20/1. I think most cases here due to stat caps, most promote at 15 due to how slow exp gains become later. If that's the case, he's actually more durable. But still, he's comparing to some awesome people at level 20/1 just by showing up with his durability. Olwen on the other hand is doing worse than Mareeta. Mareeta joins the same time, and is BARELY less durable, but has better HP and defense growth. With her low level, she'll level quickly (and the game in a way graciously spoonfeeds her pirates with plenty of forest around for her to hide in), and outdo her quickly. It only takes near 5 levels she can easily get quickly to match. She'll continue to outgrow her too. Sad thing is, Mareeta isn't durable by any means. Hell, freaking ASVEL will eventually pass by her in durability.

Now that I think about it, how DOES Continue activate? *checks* Attack speed is the percentage? HA! Ok the, she isn't even putting THAT to good use either! There doesn't seem to be any other way for her to fail outside of Dime Thunder's pure risk offense...Why risk it when Eyrios is a pretty cool guy that can tank a bit without needing the skill in the first place?...

...Now thinking about it, he wouldn't really NEED ambush...Eh. Whatever. I'll give it to Mareeta then. *waits to hear the outrage* Fine fine, I'll give it to Fin.

Ugh...Even I find it painful to see such a huge wall of text, and I typed the damn thing...I have a problem.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dat Nick]

Finn has Prayer and better supports, moron. Shanan's debating is nearsighted but at least he's on the right track here........

He said "Shiva's HP is crap compared to other melees", moron. Didn't mention shit about skills.

It's certainly not reliable.

It's certainly more than a fair payoff considering the odds.

Furthermore, I'm not going to attack something when Ike has 1 HP and hope Aether activates. We just hope it does so I don't have to heal him. Aether's a last resort.

Ike's going to be among the weakest of them -- or is likely to be so

...earlygame isn't the entire game. Ike phails much less.

furthermore, Ike can only hold so many skills. Giving him like Wrath and Vantage and letting Resolve, Adept, etc go to waste is just plain stupid.

start out with an unreliable hit rate with it

Except you're harping far too much on "unreliable" because even at 20/1 he's got a nice activation rate for it that stacks up pretty quickly. Being more reliable doesn't necessarily mean better.

ex:

Othin has 10% more crit than Halvan. Halvan has 3 more might than Halvan. Both one round everything on the map without a crit. Who wins?

Edited March 1, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Seph]

Sweet mother of god, I stopped reading the moment you said she had awesome enemy phase offense. At least I should have, because I didn't think you'd bring up fail like Fred and Glade and dreaming we give them continue.

Assuming Ambush.

- Charisma works from 3 spaces

- Leaf's support works from 3 spaces

- Leaf's leadership stars

- Fin's leadership stars

- Enemy's usually crappy avoid

Base level Olwen has 91 hit with DaimThunder. Leaf's support makes it 101. Charisma makes it 111. The leadership stars (3 if I recall correctly?) makes it 120 hit. Pretty darn good.

He said "Shiva's HP is crap compared to other melees", moron. Didn't mention shit about skills.

Speechless again.

I was talking about skills from the beginning. Sunhit is UNRELIABLE.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Shanan

[grandjackal]

- Charisma works from 3 spaces

- Leaf's support works from 3 spaces

- Leaf's leadership stars

- Fin's leadership stars

- Enemy's usually crappy avoid

What part of turtling is slow, bothersome and bogging down your team from doing many things at once don't you understand?

Base level Olwen has 91 hit with DaimThunder. Leaf's support makes it 101. Charisma makes it 111. The leadership stars (3 if I recall correctly?) makes it 120 hit. Pretty darn good.

Leaf won't always be around, neither will charisma or Fin, and not all enemies are armor knights, that and terrain exists. Authority doesn't keep her from being doubled with it equipped either. Say they'll all be around, and I'm gonna be done with this.

Speechless again.

You did say HP and defense specifically. Who the hell scoffs at someone missing something that has nothing to do with prayer? Last I checked, Fin's HP bar doesn't take the form of the word Prayer.

I really do think this was all started just because you want to argue for the sake of arguing.

[Seph]

What part of turtling is slow, bothersome and bogging down your team from doing many things at once don't you understand?

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Olwen, with Ambush, cannot effect your team's efficiency is a negative way because she has a hard time missing. She will be murdering things before they hit her.

Leaf won't always be around, neither will charisma or Fin, and not all enemies are armor knights, that and terrain exists. Authority doesn't keep her from being doubled with it equipped either. Say they'll all be around, and I'm gonna be done with this.

Leaf and Fin's leadership stars are always active, wherever they may be.

Nanna and Olwen have like, very similar move, so they have to be very close.

Leaf and Olwen may not have the same move, but at least the support thing occurs in 3 range.

She won't get doubled if she kills everything. And armors have poor AS, like 3-0, so no problems there. Armors are very common. And now,

As for her tactic being "risky", as long as she's killing whatever comes at her with two Dime Thunder shots, she is fine. She has 91% base hit, and enemy AS is retarded on anything but like thieves (and those don't attack). And then she has 180% hit growth, and nobody cares about the Odo scroll (60% more hit growth).

For Nanna "rather being at Othin's", look again. The two don't exclude each other. She has a range of 3 tiles around her for giving Charisma. And if for some reason you want to make sure both Othin and Olwen hit on seperate places, you can place Nanna near Olwen and then let Othin use Pugi. For Leaf, for the majority of the game he isn't even fighting, so he has plenty of room to go near Olwen. Let's not forget Olwen can also cart herself into Leaf's range thanks to 1-2 range and move again.

I don't see how Olwen's 4 PCC can ever hinder her Ambush/Dime Thunder combo. Maybe if she wanted to limit her exposal, but it's more like the opposite.

You did say HP and defense specifically. Who the hell scoffs at someone missing something that has nothing to do with prayer? Last I checked, Fin's HP bar doesn't take the form of the word Prayer.

I was talking about Sunhit from the beginning.

I really do think this was all started just because you want to argue for the sake of arguing.

I'll counter anything about Eyrios which is illogical to me.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Shanan