Efficiency Tier List?

[dondon151]

Fighters reach like a maximum of 11 speed before being weighed down by usually Hand Axes or Steel Axes, as well. Mages in chapter 16 have I think around 10-11 AS (making 15 necessary to double most of them).

Basically you just said "I think performance is more important than availability because otherwise it becomes skewed towards availability" or something among those lines, which I don't find convincing at all.

Yeah, and I gave an example. I can go for more if you don't think Harken vs. Eliwood is suitable.

Pent is late joining, but he's fairly close to Erk, who has about twice the availability. Is Pent twice as good as Erk when both are around?

Oscar is fairly close to Jill and Kieran, who have about 2/3 his availability. Does this mean that Jill and Kieran are 1.5 times better than Oscar when all are around?

Marty is fairly close to Ralph, who has about 1/2 the availability, so Ralph must be twice as good as Marty when both are around.

The problem with "unit A is x% more available, therefore unit B needs to be x% better" is that it's difficult to quantify as what is x% better. Assuming that x is 100 (therefore meaning that B needs to be twice as good as A), how good is twice as good? Does it mean that B needs to do twice as much damage as A? Does it mean that B needs to ORKO twice as many enemies as A? Evidently, even with a figure of 100%, it is tough for B to even come close to A if he needs to be outperforming by a factor of 2.

Then, when we come to super late joining units, everything falls apart. The current FE5 tier list has Galzus and Mareeta adjacent, yet clearly Galzus is not 6 times better than Mareeta. The current FE7 tier list (which is far from complete) has Vaida close to Bartre and Rebecca, but Vaida is not 5 times better than either of them. And so on.

This system of comparison can best be described as pseudo-maths, as numerically it makes sense, but intuitively it doesn't.

Edited July 26, 2009 by dondon151

[Renall]

This system of comparison can best be described as pseudo-maths, as numerically it makes sense, but intuitively it doesn't.

What would you propose then? Is the list wrong or is it just this line of thinking (which I've never really seen anyone advance)?

[Vykan12]

Oscar is fairly close to Jill and Kieran, who have about 2/3 his availability. Does this mean that Jill and Kieran are 1.5 times better than Oscar when all are around?

You're assuming every chapter is equal in this case, even though earlygame chapters are very short. So they might only need to be 1.2 times better, and Jill's flight could very well make that kind of difference.

Marty is fairly close to Ralph, who has about 1/2 the availability, so Ralph must be twice as good as Marty when both are around.

That could easily be true given how bad Marty's combat is.

Then, when we come to super late joining units, everything falls apart. The current FE5 tier list has Galzus and Mareeta adjacent, yet clearly Galzus is not 6 times better than Mareeta. The current FE7 tier list (which is far from complete) has Vaida close to Bartre and Rebecca, but Vaida is not 5 times better than either of them. And so on.

In Vaida's case, you're ignoring the negative utility that Bartre and Rebecca accumulate, so their net positive would amount to far fewer chapters than their total availability. Galzus and Sety are overrated in the FE5 tier list IMO.

[-Cynthia-]

You're assuming every chapter is equal in this case, even though earlygame chapters are very short. So they might only need to be 1.2 times better, and Jill's flight could very well make that kind of difference.

Yes, I think the general consensus is doing better against more enemies> doing better against fewer enemies, which makes lategame and midgame chapters weigh more than earlygame. Plus, Oscar is already ahead of Jill and Kieran with almost nowhere else to go, he's closer to them in performance than Titania IMO.

In Vaida's case, you're ignoring the negative utility that Bartre and Rebecca accumulate, so their net positive would amount to far fewer chapters than their total availability. Galzus and Sety are overrated in the FE5 tier list IMO.

I agree, availability isn't a bonus if you aren't a positive during that period of time, and if you're bad enough you're a negative, which is why I'm still puzzled about Rolf moving up, though that's a discussion for another thread.

[Quasar]

Yes, I think the general consensus is doing better against more enemies> doing better against fewer enemies, which makes lategame and midgame chapters weigh more than earlygame.

That's not the whole truth. FE6 HM becomes a joke once everyone on your team can solo maps and good performance at the only actually tough spot of the game is much more meaningful than being another brick in the wall of bricks made of unbreakable adamantium spikes of doom. Why can't they just have equal weight? I sure as hell don't want to start calculating chapter specific weights when we couldn't even decide how to rank the characters with mostly negative contributions.

[dondon151]

You're assuming every chapter is equal in this case, even though earlygame chapters are very short. So they might only need to be 1.2 times better, and Jill's flight could very well make that kind of difference.

You're assuming that short chapters are less important chapters, which couldn't be more false given that earlygame chapters are the most important and most restricted in the game.

That could easily be true given how bad Marty's combat is.

Except he's way more durable than Ralph and his combat after promotion isn't that bad, in addition to his earlygame utility.

In Vaida's case, you're ignoring the negative utility that Bartre and Rebecca accumulate, so their net positive would amount to far fewer chapters than their total availability. Galzus and Sety are overrated in the FE5 tier list IMO.

Rebecca I can understand, but Bartre's negative utility is only the period when he's getting doubled, and that's not very long. I could also go further about how it's pretty difficult to have just negative utility unless the player is assumed not to know how to use a character, but w/e.

I agree, availability isn't a bonus if you aren't a positive during that period of time, and if you're bad enough you're a negative, which is why I'm still puzzled about Rolf moving up, though that's a discussion for another thread.

Oscar, Marty, and Bartre are easily positives when they're around. I'd contend that Lot is as positive earlygame as like a base level Dorcas in FE7, which isn't very good at all.

[A2ZOMG]

Lot is comparatively more useful than Dorcas. His support with Deak gives him full defense, and never getting killed in two rounds by common enemies is quite a valuable asset earlygame when enemies are strongest relative to your team. Getting WTA on those soldiers that have overkill str and knights that have overkill def is also worth noting, not to mention doubling knights with the Hammer. Lot basically is the only user of the Killer Axe earlygame, and has advantages like being really good against Chapter 7 Wyverns.

Promoted Lot with supports is also practically invincible in Sacae, which is no small feat.

[dondon151]

Lot is comparatively more useful than Dorcas.

Stop here. My comparison was earlygame. Lot, in comparison to Dorcas, hits less and does less damage per hit, along with having similar durability parameters.

His support with Deak gives him full defense, and never getting killed in two rounds by common enemies is quite a valuable asset earlygame when enemies are strongest relative to your team. Getting WTA on those soldiers that have overkill str and knights that have overkill def is also worth noting, not to mention doubling knights with the Hammer. Lot basically is the only user of the Killer Axe earlygame, and has advantages like being really good against Chapter 7 Wyverns.

LotxDieck takes 25 turns to C, which is the only feasible level of support earlygame. Armors are as easily defeated using the Armorslayer that Rutger and Dieck have access to, and Lot is not "really good" against WKs.

Promoted Lot with supports is also practically invincible in Sacae, which is no small feat.

Uh, OK, promoted Gonzales is pretty much invincible and kills everything.

[Quasar]

Given how I sometimes have the patience of a three-year-old I'll just skip the foreplay and go straight to why I brought up 14 AS. Armors, Steel Fighters, Bolting Mage, Purge Bishop and a possibility for 1 Steel Sniper, 2 Mamkutes and 3 Bishops is what you can double - 17 out of 31 enemies, not counting reinforcements. Now let's assume this is Bors we're talking about and not general nonsense. You can double Douglas but it's more of a hindurance because you're risking killing him now. You can double the Bolting Mage but you'd have to be warped where he is to be able to hit him so he doesn't count either. You can double Mamkutes but it's not like you want to touch them with Bors so Javelin for two damage I guess. The Sniper is locked away and one of the Fighters can use Hand Axe to prevent getting doubled but I guess they still count. So what we have left is 13/31. I'd hardly call this a good amount of enemies you can double. With 17 AS you could double everything that's not Narshen or a Merc, making it a respectable 22/31. Assuming only two Mages land on 13 AS since it's kind of rare 16 AS could double 20/31.

I'd say for this chapter the AS you need to be able to shout "Guys, I can double here!" is 16. Discarding Bors and resuming theory mode it would be 24/31 with your fast grasp only being escaped by damn lucky Mages, Mercs and the chapter boss. And none of them can even double you.

Edit: Added the Purge Bishop

Edited July 29, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

Topic bump, this was dying for no reason, mainly that the argument currently was put on hold.

And as for the 14 AS deal, I brought it up because it was enough to start, not a "doubling everything" deal.

[Florete]

Fir > Klein.

Fir comes partway through chapter 9 at level 1. It's FoW, so it's tough to get stats, but I do recall Balcerzak showing that she can chow down on reinforcement pirates quite easily. I hope you (Wolf) remember that.

Now, I only have save states for Lalum (Echidna) route, so I'll be using that comparison. I'll assume Fir reaches level 8 (High experience gain, remember) by the time Klein shows up. So here's how they look:

Fir. Level 8, Iron Sword/Steel Sword/Wo Dao

HP: 29.85

Atk: 15.55/18.55/15.55

Hit: 105/90/95

Crit: 8/8/48

AS: 17/12/17

Avoid: 43/33/43

Def: 5.25

Res: 3.76

Klein. Level 1, Silver Bow

HP: 32.85

Atk: 28.7

Hit: 108

Crit: 8

AS: 12.8

Avoid: 38.3

Def: 9.35

Res: 7.35

So it would appear that Klein is winning. He clearly wins concrete durability. He also has a clean atk lead, similar avoid, and 12 AS doubles everyone but the boss. But the obvious problem, of course, is his lack of 1 range. Before reinforcements, every enemy on the map is either the boss (1), an Archer (6), a Shaman (3), or a Fighter (12), so Fighters make up ~54.5% of the enemies. Also, since 2 of the Archers have Longbows, even Klein can't counter them. But let's go with the important guys, the Fighters. Iron and Hand Axe guys 3 hit her, though there's only 1 Iron Axe guy, and he also has the highest Hit on her at 14.85% or 27.75% true hit, depending on her weapon. The next most accurate Fighter actually has a Halberd and 5.95% or 14.85%. All the other guys are lower, some going as low as 1.71% true. Lol.

She 3 hits every single one of them without exception with an Iron Sword or Wo Dao, meaning a 2 round, or 1 if she crits (Wo Dao/Killing Edge, yeah), and she can 1 round all but the 5 Def guys with a Steel sword, so she's doing well offensively. It's the same with the Archers, aka a 3 hit with Iron Sword/Wo Dao, and mostly ORKO with the Steel Sword. Even an Iron Sword might ORKO Shamans.

Klein ORKOs everything, that's true enough, but only on his own phase, or if you set up kills for him/it's an Archer. However, there are 6 guys locked to 1 range plus reinforcement Brigands from the mountains as soon as turn 7 vs. only 4 enemies locked to 2 range (Klein's guys don't count since they turn green), so Fir is generally having a much better time in combat than Klein. He doesn't even really have an advantage against Archers (especially Longbow guys) since Fir can attack them uncountered. So Fir is pretty much already winning.

As for supports, I think it's safe to say Fir can get A/B Shin/Noah, while Klein can get A/B Tate/Percival. "But move difference." Yeah, they both have it, big deal. Both will get +25 avoid when they cap, making Fir virtually unhittable combined with her higher experience gain and 160% avoid growth. Let's skip to a later comparison, after Fir's promotion, so 16x.

Fir, level 20/1, B Noah, B Shin, Killing Edge/Steel Sword

HP: 42.85

Atk: 28.55/27.55

Hit: 146/136

Crit: 81/51

AS: 21/18

Avoid: 77/71

Def: 12.05

Res: 10.16

Klein, level --/10, A Tate, C Percival, Silver Bow/Killer Bow (though Silver Bows are in short supply)

HP: 38.25

Atk: 31.85/27.85

Hit: 136/146

Crit: 11/41

AS: 16.85

Avoid: 69

Def: 13.7

Res: 12.6

All the gaps have closed. Defensively, 26 physical atk, an average for 16x, might 3 hit Klein but 4 hits Fir. It takes 33 atk to 2 hit Klein and 34 to 2 hit Fir, so that's a slight win. 27 3 hits both. Lower than that and they're usually even, or the #RKO is too high to matter. So Fir is slightly more durable due to HP and higher avoid.

But offensively is where it's at. Both double everything with similar atk, but Fir has that huge crit that gives her 75-80% chances to OHKO enemies in most scenarios, and since 28 atk at worst 3 hits everything, that covers all enemies. Also, there are only 2 enemies locked to 2 range on this map while 10 are locked to 1, and everyone else is 1-2, so Klein really doesn't have an enemy phase advantage either. Couple in the fact that Fir will continue to grow faster with mostly better growths and it keeps going from there.

On one final note, Klein doesn't always double either. A Paladin in Ch. 13 has 11 AS, and Klein needs to be lv 6 for that, which would be 2 levels per map as a promoted unit (and a Sniper), which isn't happening. Come to think of it, that level I gave him might have been inflated, since it's 9 levels in 9 chapters as a Sniper, which is definitely too much. Oh well, Fir beats an overleveled Klein, so...

You didn't think I'd give up, did you?

[grandjackal]

*rubs temples* Why? Why again?

Fir > Klein.

Fir comes partway through chapter 9 at level 1. It's FoW, so it's tough to get stats, but I do recall Balcerzak showing that she can chow down on reinforcement pirates quite easily. I hope you (Wolf) remember that.

I know I'm the guy running the list, but I can't help but think you were calling me out specifically.

Anyways, it is true with the norther fort, as the southern island forts spawn two pirates, one having hand axes. Swords she may have, but that's overwhelming in general aside from your toughest. However, the northern fort is so easy a set-up. I can agree with this....To an extent.

You see, it's easily set up, and anyone can take their share there. She's not garunteed ALL the kills on that fort. There are also others that would delight in their share, namely OJ or Roy. Hell, Lillina could get easy kills form it, and she has range magic. So I can say Fir is garunteed kills, but not all of them.

Now, I only have save states for Lalum (Echidna) route, so I'll be using that comparison. I'll assume Fir reaches level 8 (High experience gain, remember) by the time Klein shows up. So here's how they look:

Fir. Level 8, Iron Sword/Steel Sword/Wo Dao

HP: 29.85

Atk: 15.55/18.55/15.55

Hit: 105/90/95

Crit: 8/8/48

AS: 17/12/17

Avoid: 43/33/43

Def: 5.25

Res: 3.76

Klein. Level 1, Silver Bow

HP: 32.85

Atk: 28.7

Hit: 108

Crit: 8

AS: 12.8

Avoid: 38.3

Def: 9.35

Res: 7.35

So it would appear that Klein is winning. He clearly wins concrete durability. He also has a clean atk lead, similar avoid, and 12 AS doubles everyone but the boss. But the obvious problem, of course, is his lack of 1 range. Before reinforcements, every enemy on the map is either the boss (1), an Archer (6), a Shaman (3), or a Fighter (12), so Fighters make up ~54.5% of the enemies. Also, since 2 of the Archers have Longbows, even Klein can't counter them. But let's go with the important guys, the Fighters. Iron and Hand Axe guys 3 hit her, though there's only 1 Iron Axe guy, and he also has the highest Hit on her at 14.85% or 27.75% true hit, depending on her weapon. The next most accurate Fighter actually has a Halberd and 5.95% or 14.85%. All the other guys are lower, some going as low as 1.71% true. Lol.

Generally other route is basically the same statistically, but here's the thing. Bartre's route, Klein comes a chapter earlier.

12 AS isn't doubling them unless they wield Steel. Another problem is on Bartre's route in the comparison, I'd say she'd be level 5.

22 HP, 7 Str, 11 Skill, 12 Speed, 5 Luck, 3 Def, 1 Res.

By the way, where the hell did you get your stats? http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/average/fir.html Your stats are grossly inflated.

Her level 8 stats are

24 HP, 7 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 6 Luck, 4 Def, 2 Res.

Iron/Steel/Wo Dao=12/15/15

Hit=115/100/105

Crit=6/6/46

AS=13/8/13

Avoid=32/22/32

Def=4, Res=2.

First off, Steel Sword isn't doubling dick. In fact...

Get's her doubled by this guy. These guys usually pack steel, but even with iron it's a ORKO. In return to these people..

This merc she 8RKOs with iron, 5RKOs with the other weapons (steel getting her killed). Even witha crit, she needs to land two more blows. 2RKO when she's nto weighed down.

The axer...Wow, she can't double those wielding iron axes even when not weighed down. Those iron men she 5RKOs with iron, 4RKOd otherwise. Hand axers pose the problem of range, where she can't counter. These guys all 2RKO her regardless, so even with the hit in the 20's (30's with steel), it's still pretty damn risky. Speaking of which, a chapter before in Echidna's route, this guy shows up, ya know...before she's level 8.

If she's not level 8 to the dot, this guy can OHKO her with the steel he's packing. Boast avoid all you want, this guy can actually clock risky hit rates on her.

More importantly though, this shows the kind of favoritism she'd need, considering she's taking forever to kill them, even with crits. Showing the stats at level 5 for the chapter before Klein's in Echidna's route, her 12 AS won't even double hand axers. How is she getting these kills, even when leveling fast? I vouch level 8 by Klein's chapter as rediculous.

She 3 hits every single one of them without exception with an Iron Sword or Wo Dao, meaning a 2 round, or 1 if she crits (Wo Dao/Killing Edge, yeah), and she can 1 round all but the 5 Def guys with a Steel sword, so she's doing well offensively. It's the same with the Archers, aka a 3 hit with Iron Sword/Wo Dao, and mostly ORKO with the Steel Sword. Even an Iron Sword might ORKO Shamans.

Killing Edge weighs her down by 2, so no. Don't see how she's ORKOng archers when she's not even doubling them. Either way, this was based on gross swollen stats she couldn't possibly have at level 8. She's doing much worse than this.

Klein ORKOs everything, that's true enough, but only on his own phase, or if you set up kills for him/it's an Archer. However, there are 6 guys locked to 1 range plus reinforcement Brigands from the mountains as soon as turn 7 vs. only 4 enemies locked to 2 range (Klein's guys don't count since they turn green), so Fir is generally having a much better time in combat than Klein. He doesn't even really have an advantage against Archers (especially Longbow guys) since Fir can attack them uncountered. So Fir is pretty much already winning.

So ORKOing player phase with counter avoid compared to a unit who's 4-5RKOing while being constantly 2RKOd in return by generally anything on the map with no counter for range? Sure, Klein does nothing on enemy phase (or it's rare to say the least), but he's killing something each turn, where she can't even make a collective equivelant of herself 5RKOing when she can only counter 4 people at max. Letting her take a counter is just as much a waste as letting him.

As for supports, I think it's safe to say Fir can get A/B Shin/Noah, while Klein can get A/B Tate/Percival. "But move difference." Yeah, they both have it, big deal. Both will get +25 avoid when they cap, making Fir virtually unhittable combined with her higher experience gain and 160% avoid growth. Let's skip to a later comparison, after Fir's promotion, so 16x.

Fir, level 20/1, B Noah, B Shin, Killing Edge/Steel Sword

HP: 42.85

Atk: 28.55/27.55

Hit: 146/136

Crit: 81/51

AS: 21/18

Avoid: 77/71

Def: 12.05

Res: 10.16

Klein, level --/10, A Tate, C Percival, Silver Bow/Killer Bow (though Silver Bows are in short supply)

HP: 38.25

Atk: 31.85/27.85

Hit: 136/146

Crit: 11/41

AS: 16.85

Avoid: 69

Def: 13.7

Res: 12.6

All the gaps have closed. Defensively, 26 physical atk, an average for 16x, might 3 hit Klein but 4 hits Fir. It takes 33 atk to 2 hit Klein and 34 to 2 hit Fir, so that's a slight win. 27 3 hits both. Lower than that and they're usually even, or the #RKO is too high to matter. So Fir is slightly more durable due to HP and higher avoid.

Yet again, your numbers are grossly inflated. She doesn't have anything close to those stats at 20/1.

37 HP, 13+3 Str, 20 Skill, 22 Speed, 12 Luck, 8+2 Def, 6.8 Res.

Killer/Steel

Mt: 25/24+3

Hit: 134/129+16

AS: Doesn't really matter at this point, though she still loses 6 from steel and 1 from killer edge. So with steel, they'd have the same speed. Klein has better luck so in a situaiton where both are supportless, he would have an avoid lead. Even with supports, she'd only have a 3 point lead, and she has the problem of having to deal with the weapon triangle.

Crit: 70/40+12

Def: 8+2

Res: 6+2

However, with Klein? Do notice something, that these supports, while boosting his defense, do not boost his offense. Even supportless, his offense remains constant. Hers however would take quite a harsh dip without them. Klein may have Cecilia, may have Percy, may have Tate, may have Clarine, may have Elphin, but in the end he could very well go supportless.

When is this happening anyways? 16x?

Actually, it would be a 2RKO. 3RKO in return, which is a positive, but do keep something in mind...This is with supports. If she doesn't have them? She can get 2RKOd by these guys with steel, but even considering there are these dudes running amok

2RKOs, but if ANYTHING hits Fir, this guy can easily finish her off. In return, he is 2RKOd by killer edge, but his AS is 14. With steel, her AS would be 16. She actually won't be doubling with it, which would make it a 4RKO, supports considered. If we were to take her supports away? With the killer edge, she'd need to land 4 blows to kill him, and with Steel? If she's even off by 1 Str, it's a 5RKO. It's hopeless. At least Klein can pull out a bit of silver to end the cavs while doing a thick 20 damage to paladins, or attempt a 3RKO crit from safety.

Then note that some of these guys are packing javies. On top of that, let's say one of them gets Berserked by the boss. Guess who's easier to contain?

For lols, let's say she has no supports. 3RKO with killer (meaning to ORKO, she needs to land 2 crits. Granted it's high chance, but not garunteed). With steel? Still 3RKO, but now the crit chance is far smaller. The fact that Klein can pull an offensive lead here is hilarious, especially since offensively this guy is just as dangerous as those cavs shown earlier.

But offensively is where it's at. Both double everything with similar atk, but Fir has that huge crit that gives her 75-80% chances to OHKO enemies in most scenarios, and since 28 atk at worst 3 hits everything, that covers all enemies. Also, there are only 2 enemies locked to 2 range on this map while 10 are locked to 1, and everyone else is 1-2, so Klein really doesn't have an enemy phase advantage either. Couple in the fact that Fir will continue to grow faster with mostly better growths and it keeps going from there.

What matters is those ranged guys make it all that much more unsafe for her to just be out and about, acting like she's a tank. She's a magnet to them. Considering how flimsy paper she is, I wouldn't put the risk on her to go and countertank like you seem to think she will. On top of that, this is with supports. Without them, a lot of her power went out the window.

On one final note, Klein doesn't always double either. A Paladin in Ch. 13 has 11 AS, and Klein needs to be lv 6 for that, which would be 2 levels per map as a promoted unit (and a Sniper), which isn't happening. Come to think of it, that level I gave him might have been inflated, since it's 9 levels in 9 chapters as a Sniper, which is definitely too much. Oh well, Fir beats an overleveled Klein, so...

A promoted Sniper who doesn't need friends to have the offense he has. As for that paladin, do explain how Fir would be doubling by then with anything heavier than iron while still maintaining relevent offense, of which the paladin can retort with a silver lance to the face? At that time, the paladin could probably OHKO her. They are decently strong for the time, she's still got a ways to go to have "durability", and it is WTA. If Klein's levels are inflated, so are hers.

You didn't think I'd give up, did you?

You're still wrong.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

By the way, where the hell did you get your stats? http://www.serenesfo...verage/fir.html Your stats are grossly inflated.

See where it says Hard Mode? Click it. This isn't Normal Mode.

[grandjackal]

Gah! Uhh....Forgot about that, didn't notice...

Uhh....Her offense is still a bit dependent on supports ;;>>

Thought of something interesting about archers though...You could promote them early and still not lose much. Like Wolt at level 16 would only lose unimportant defense stats and 1 Str in the long term, but in the short term he gets immediate boosts far sooner.

With that in mind, level 16 promoted, Wolt would be Klein without the resistance and a little bit of power missing, but Wolt would actually be faster. Sue it's only by a point, but...

I suppose the favoritism argument would be used, but there are chapters that Wolt is forced on. It's not like he's equal to Dorothy when she gets there. He could pull his weight a bit in earlygame. With the time he's got, he could easily get to 16 or better by the time Klein shows up, where he could promote and basically be a faster version of Klein.

I suppose supports are a bit iffier, as Wolt's only got Marcus and Sue to realistically consider...

Edited August 8, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dat Nick]

Perhaps I'm still stuck in the FEDS mindset but I really don't buy "lol Fir>Klein because 1 range" [which is more or less 95% of Fox's argument], especially not since Fir can't one round most of the stuff present and has crap durability against anything not playing with an axe.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Florete]

It's even harder to buy Wolf's argument because the entire thing was based on NM stats. And I showed how 1 range > 2 range because of it providing more countering abilities. If her early durability only allows player phase offense, so what, she's at Klein's level. And she passes him in offense and defense anyway.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

It's even harder to buy Wolf's argument because the entire thing was based on NM stats. And I showed how 1 range > 2 range because of it providing more countering abilities. If her early durability only allows player phase offense, so what, she's at Klein's level. And she passes him in offense and defense anyway.

Her offense and durability may go up in HM, but she didn't suddenly become a sword armor here. She'd still generally be 2-3RKOd, and at her start she's still about 3RKOing the enemy. Considering she would be equal to Klein in terms of what they're attacking, Klein would then win due to silver bow access, weapons not weighing him down anywhere near as bad, and he is not taking a counter when he attacks.

As for more durable, that's very vague. Let's say she is level 8 when Klein shows up.

29 HP, 5 def and 42 avoid for Fir, 32 HP, 9 defense and 36 avoid. 6 avoid does not make up for a 3 HP and 4 Def gap, especially since soon she will be on the recieving end of the weapon triangle.

Then let's not forget Sacae, home of the ranged combatants, and Bern where deadly lancers fly from everywhere with their wyvern lords packing 40 Mt behind their swing. To not get 2RKOd, she'd need to be level 20/20. At least Klein can avoid the counter and blast them with a bow. If he's not at level 17 by now, he's got Miurge. Really, what better time to use it than now? Considering it's 1 attack a turn, it's not like it'll run out any time soon. These wyvern lords are also packing pretty good hit on her, thanks to lances. She'd need her supports around to have enemy phase, while Klein doesn't care. His offense is his offense.

[Quasar]

I'm not really disagreeing with Fir > Klein but I find 8 Fir by the time Klein joins highly unlikely, if not absurd with Lalum route. There's half of chapter nine, a full chapter ten and a third of chapter 11. Seven levels in less than two full chapters? The ballista in 10 doesn't exactly help either.

[grandjackal]

I'm not really disagreeing with Fir > Klein but I find 8 Fir by the time Klein joins highly unlikely, if not absurd with Lalum route. There's half of chapter nine, a full chapter ten and a third of chapter 11. Seven levels in less than two full chapters? The ballista in 10 doesn't exactly help either.

Not to mention the goddamn Berserker smokes her in one shot if he lands a shot. I mean literally, no crit. Just bam. Dead.

Let's take a more real level, level 4.

26 HP, 4 Def, 34 avoid. 6 HP, 5 Def AND 2 avoid lead for Klein.

Gets even worse Bartre route, he joins a chapter earlier.

[Dat Nick]

And I showed how 1 range > 2 range because of it providing more countering abilities.

What you didn't show was that countering does not necessarily equal good, especially when you have durability issues. Sure, the axemen might get her off scot free on that for now, but the archers won't, and by the time she starts surpassing Klein in stats more, Lances hit, which pretty much turns her durability to paper.

And not only that, when Fir attacks, she HAS to eat counters, which is not cool when enemies pull out lances.

And do note that I don't particularly care for the outcome of Fir v Klein, I just don't like the generalization of "1 range>2 range lol" you're using.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Florete]

I'm not really disagreeing with Fir > Klein but I find 8 Fir by the time Klein joins highly unlikely, if not absurd with Lalum route. There's half of chapter nine, a full chapter ten and a third of chapter 11. Seven levels in less than two full chapters? The ballista in 10 doesn't exactly help either.

What about her low starting level and all the axe wielding enemies? Seriously, she gets like 50 exp a kill.

I'm not really disagreeing with Fir > Klein but I find 8 Fir by the time Klein joins highly unlikely, if not absurd with Lalum route. There's half of chapter nine, a full chapter ten and a third of chapter 11. Seven levels in less than two full chapters? The ballista in 10 doesn't exactly help either.

Not to mention the goddamn Berserker smokes her in one shot if he lands a shot. I mean literally, no crit. Just bam. Dead.

Let's take a more real level, level 4.

26 HP, 4 Def, 34 avoid. 6 HP, 5 Def AND 2 avoid lead for Klein.

Gets even worse Bartre route, he joins a chapter earlier.

Level 4? Nice sandbag. Even if 8 is inflated (which it's not), level 6 would be minimum. And when Klein joins on Bartre route, his stats are also slightly lower, so it really isn't helping his case much.

And I can agree that Klein is better for like, 2 or 3 maps, but then Fir starts winning. Especially if she can nab a Hero Crest early, like 15 or 16, because then she gets promotion bonuses at little cost to other stats and starts smacking Klein even faster.

And that Steel Axe Berserker? He has 27 atk on her, so even base level Fir would survive a hit. I don't know what you're smoking.

And I showed how 1 range > 2 range because of it providing more countering abilities.

What you didn't show was that countering does not necessarily equal good, especially when you have durability issues. Sure, the axemen might get her off scot free on that for now, but the archers won't, and by the time she starts surpassing Klein in stats more, Lances hit, which pretty much turns her durability to paper.

And not only that, when Fir attacks, she HAS to eat counters, which is not cool when enemies pull out lances.

By the time Lance enemies start getting more common, Fir will have built up some support, so it won't be that much of a threat. And since a lot of enemies tend to have 1-2 range, it means Klein isn't always going uncountered anyway. Yeah, it can hurt Fir as well, but again, player phase only simply brings her down to Klein's level, so anything she is able to do on the enemy phase as a result is extra. And also remember that against any enemy Archers it's Fir who doesn't eat a counter.

[Dat Nick]

By the time Lance enemies start getting more common, Fir will have built up some support

Oh, right, supports.

...Oh right, those don't really help.

Bartre=IF we get him, he'll be dropped once he bypasses his utility.

Noah=Iffy support due to him being lower-mid.

Karel=lol

Rutger=He was full long before.

Shin=Also kind of iffy. Slow, move gap, etc.

Even assuming supports it's going to be a problem if she gets 3RKOd at 40~ hit.

And also remember that against any enemy Archers it's Fir who doesn't eat a counter.

Klein has concrete durability: He can afford to get hit a few times.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Quasar]

I'm not saying she doesn't get a lot of exp per kill. There's just really not a whole lot to kill up to when Klein joins especially considering how huge teams you're bringing to each of those maps and how she isn't able to one-round at that point, meaning that not every round of combat ends with kill exp. I suppose you can, of course, choose to baby her for the sake of the argument but I'm not sure it'd help more than hurt the case.

Edit: I suppose I need to say what I think she's at instead of just saying "too high". If you ask me level 5-6 seems reasonable when Klein joins with Echidna route.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

What about her low starting level and all the axe wielding enemies? Seriously, she gets like 50 exp a kill.

What about her offense and defense? To get a kill, you need to actually kill something. Pirates in the northern fort on her joining chapter have iron axes and 11 AS. She can't double them.

Level 4? Nice sandbag. Even if 8 is inflated (which it's not), level 6 would be minimum. And when Klein joins on Bartre route, his stats are also slightly lower, so it really isn't helping his case much.

His stats aren't lower, but rather his starting decimals are lower, so nice try there.

And I can agree that Klein is better for like, 2 or 3 maps, but then Fir starts winning. Especially if she can nab a Hero Crest early, like 15 or 16, because then she gets promotion bonuses at little cost to other stats and starts smacking Klein even faster.

And that Steel Axe Berserker? He has 27 atk on her, so even base level Fir would survive a hit. I don't know what you're smoking.

Nabbing a hero's crest? Better for like 2 or 3 maps? What are you smoking? Deick, Lot and Rutger suddenly don't matter? What about Gonzales in Bartre route? Immediate boosts for him would be awesome. There's more to consider than giving it to someone who's infinitely stuck to 1 range.

Besides, she'd rather not face the berserker anyways.

By the time Lance enemies start getting more common, Fir will have built up some support, so it won't be that much of a threat. And since a lot of enemies tend to have 1-2 range, it means Klein isn't always going uncountered anyway. Yeah, it can hurt Fir as well, but again, player phase only simply brings her down to Klein's level, so anything she is able to do on the enemy phase as a result is extra. And also remember that against any enemy Archers it's Fir who doesn't eat a counter.

The problem is she needs to have built up supports. Did you know Klein doesn't need supports to be good? They'd help others for sure, but he couldn't care himself.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What about her offense and defense? To get a kill, you need to actually kill something. Pirates in the northern fort on her joining chapter have iron axes and 11 AS. She can't double them.

Wait what? Isn't it 9 SPD?