Efficiency Tier List?

[Quasar]

The thing is with his durability, he makes the perfect drop. He can basically distract the enemy from going after your cavs, so they can power ahead at full power, and Boris can keep up his defenses till the rest of the footsoldiers get there, where they'll have plenty of weakened enemies to gum down.

So Bors is more durable than Lance/Alan etc? You do know that the enemies will then ignore Bors and he'll just stand there doing nothing. Again.

As for numerical reasons....Uhh...Just go look at their starting stats. Klein just starts leagues ahead of her, and needs no promotion item. in exchange he slows down while she catches up, but he still has his uses despite how by then, Fir will be a murderface. They really are just complete yet equal opposites.

I'm not sure what you just said but what I heard was "I noticed I can't win the debate so I decided to try and sidetrack the arguments to their meaningless supports and from there to things not even remotely related to Fir and Klein. Then I opted to do another change to the tier list to make my opponent happy and save my case by suggesting they're equal. I sure hope I won't have to show any proof that Klein is better because it doesn't exist."

Oh wait I just heard it properly. Revolutionized by this astounding logic I'm suggesting Marcus = Lance.

Marcus starts leagues ahead of him, check.

Marcus needs no promotion item, check.

Marcus slows down when Lance catches up, check.

Marcus still has uses when Lance is murderface, check.

Complete, yet equal opposites. No need for additional proof, period.

Of course before we do this we should discuss their supports, the more the better.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Quasar

[dondon151]

Like I said before, once Bors promotes, he has no way of getting to the front line.

Also, I sort of wish I hadn't started a FE hiatus, otherwise I'd have the enemy stats to resolve this Klein/Fir argument.

[Quasar]

If you don't trust the examples at http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmstats.html check out Bal's saves for every chapter

Edited August 16, 2009 by Quasar

[dondon151]

Balcerzak's saves don't work for me and the samples aren't necessarily accurate (by which I mean important stats like AS can be above or below average and lead into wrong assumptions).

[Quasar]

Hm, you do know they're save data (as in .sav and not the quicksave ones), right? The saves are at the beginning of the chapter, at the preparation screen. I think the enemies reset if you restart the chapter too.

Edit: I'm using the latest stable myself and just tested with latest beta and seems to work with both for me.

And if you're doing everything right, like you probably are, I'd suspect a slightly different version of the ROM giving hiccups.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Quasar

[dondon151]

I think I have like a really old version of VBA or something, because I once tried to open my saves using VBA re-recording to make some videos and it didn't work. Since I plan on finishing FE6 HM some time, I'll just go along and see what happens.

[Quasar]

Looks like the discussion at general forums is never going to end up in a solution everyone can agree on and I wouldn't really want the few people we have here splitting to two threads. I for one am not going to touch anyone below high tier until an agreement has been reached on the matter and since there're not that many of us here we might as well make a decision regarding it on our own for this thread.

My suggestion is to at least force play on characters instead of using them for a single chapter. Just look at how smoothly the FEDS list is rolling. Or even better, compare the units to an empty slot. But at least forcing play on every chapter available would be a start.

If everyone can agree on this then let's make it so but if there are opinions for something else let's just drop it and wait for a general solution to be found.

[grandjackal]

Looks like the discussion at general forums is never going to end up in a solution everyone can agree on and I wouldn't really want the few people we have here splitting to two threads. I for one am not going to touch anyone below high tier until an agreement has been reached on the matter and since there're not that many of us here we might as well make a decision regarding it on our own for this thread.

My suggestion is to at least force play on characters instead of using them for a single chapter. Just look at how smoothly the FEDS list is rolling. Or even better, compare the units to an empty slot. But at least forcing play on every chapter available would be a start.

If everyone can agree on this then let's make it so but if there are opinions for something else let's just drop it and wait for a general solution to be found.

I thought that's what we were doing.

[Quasar]

I thought half of the tier list is messed up because of arguments like these

Going further into negative utility if the horrible ones want to minimize the damage they do for the team they'll stay away after joining. As useless as Sophia is for combat she does earn the team a much-needed Guiding Ring, Either way this isn't ranked so funds isn't an issue but a Guiding Ring is a Guiding Ring. One could argue it's better than the damage Dorothy does in Ch6 as Sophia probably will just sit back at the desert.

I'm quoting myself by the way but too lazy to do it properly.

[Mekkah]

At this point I'm a fan of just listing the criteria from +/- utility at the start of the thread. If you don't agree with them, go make your own list.

[grandjackal]

At this point I'm a fan of just listing the criteria from +/- utility at the start of the thread. If you don't agree with them, go make your own list.

Good point. Will do that now.

[Mekkah]

-Supports are tricky. If you don't need them, you are a standalone unit. This means you are allowing others to build supports freely without interrupting the flow.

You pretty much always allow others to build supports unless you are meddling in some kind of chain (like Marcus trying to get into the Cav/Roy triangle)...you forget to mention the fact supports do not only benefit the character in question, but also the partners (Lance doesn't just become godly with A Alan, it makes Alan godly as well).

Otherwise looks fine, though conveniently worded so that it makes Bors look better. Bors really does suck.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Mekkah

[grandjackal]

-Supports are tricky. If you don't need them, you are a standalone unit. This means you are allowing others to build supports freely without interrupting the flow.

You pretty much always allow others to build supports unless you are meddling in some kind of chain (like Marcus trying to get into the Cav/Roy triangle)...you forget to mention the fact supports do not only benefit the character in question, but also the partners (Lance doesn't just become godly with A Alan, it makes Alan godly as well).

Otherwise looks fine, though conveniently worded so that it makes Bors look better. Bors really does suck.

It's more to do with the whole point restrictions thing. It actually can make a big deal, though it's more early on deal than anything/ However, I will add that tidbit.

Thanks though.

As for Boris, I can't help but feel he's a bit underrated. I'll keep him in low until others can agree on this, but I stick with it.

[Quasar]

Nice work

[Colonel M]

I'm starting to believe that the Gonzaleses should be right near each other. Both have advantages:

Gonzales (Echinda)

- Isn't asking for a Hero Crest early thanks to 7 Levels.

Gonzales (Bartre)

- Can use the Hero Crest to gain some nukish Skl bonus.

In other words Echinda > Bartre, but next to each other. Get what I'm saying?

[Quasar]

If they're next to each other there's no need to separate them per route. I have no opinion on the suggested move otherwise.

[grandjackal]

I agree with you both. Getting rid of the Gonzales Routes.

[Quasar]

I'm going on a gravedigging trip. Hugh vs Lilina, because everyone is a closet Lilina fan:

Let's take a 16/0 Lilina with C Roy and B Gonzales for Ch16. It's a bit high but I think still somewhat plausible.

Lilina w. Elfire

26 Atk

9 AS

111 Hit

19 Crit

23 HP

6 Def

14 Res

36 Avoid

15 Hugh with Elf fire

21 Atk

12 AS

102 Hit

5 Crit

26 HP

9 Def

9 Res

32 Avoid

Lilina wins offense even with 3 AS loss as the particular chapter offers no advantage in doubling whatsover. Defensively it's a clear loss though. Lilina gets ORKO'd by some Snipers, Douglas and some of the high STR Fighters with Steel Axes. That's pretty bad. Fortunately the Snipers are locked away, Douglas can and is kind of supposed to be avoided. Fighters are a problem however. Fortunately for her you can't allow Hugh to take a hit and barely survive without immediately healing him as the ton of sniper mages in the chapter will finish him off. Given Lilina's higher damage generally and ORKO potential with crits I'd call it even here.

So it's not a loss. Now let's promote the two failures with Guiding Rings we got from the very same chapter so they'll be less horrible.

17/1 Lilina

30 Atk

13 AS

20 Crit

26 HP

7 Def

17 Res

42 Avoid

Heal for 32 HP

16/1 Hugh

25 Atk

13 AS

6 Crit

31 HP

11 Def

11 Res

32 Avoid

Heal for 27 HP

Cool, tied in AS now making Lilina always better offensively and a winner in utility with higher Mag. Hugh still wins in defense even with the avoid edge, which is pretty damn small considering she has three supports.

By now you are probably wondering why I'm ignoring having to put up with Lilina up to this point and Hugh costing to recruit, so might as well get that out of the way. I'm suggesting they cancel each other out. 10k cash is a lot. Mostly because it's not really 10k but rather 20k since you can't Silver it. That buys quite a bit of equipment and items. If that's not enough Lilina is always helping Gonzales to hit things to lessen her negative effect.

Lilina>Hugh

[grandjackal]

Sounds good to me. Another unspoken advantage is she's benefitting 2 characters with her presence (along with others who have no one to support, what else are the Ostians to do?), and that the huge chip damage alone doesn't render her completely useless prior to Hue showing up.

Anyone object?

[Colonel M]

We have to really see how Lilina is doing beforehand. I can see it, but it depends on how long the negative utility is there.

[Quasar]

Maybe I'm just blind but what was the stance for +/- again?

If Lilina is better than Hugh not existing then Lilina >>>> Hugh.

If she's negative for being below optimal team/mid tier/average unit/whatever it's still > 20k. I can go to more detail later.

[grandjackal]

She's an amazing supporter to her supports, huge damage with high crit chance, these alone make it hard not to justify her. I mean, her damage output and the fact that anima+light affinity makes it hard to miss even with her skill helps her chip at bosses.

She may not be optimal AT FIRST, but...It won't exactly take long to make her useful ;;>>

But just to humor others, feel free to go in depth before I make the change.

[Quasar]

Since my question wasn't really answered I'm going to fill my promise of more details but in revenge I'll be kind of vague and not compare her to anyone in particular.

Lilina has a dozen or so chapters before the scenario I posted earlier. One of them is her join chapter, two of them are chapters where she can recruit someone and one is a desert where she's doing just fine.

The worst case scenario is that she'll be competing for a unit slot against the worst character of the optimal team. Most of the chapters here have a wtfhuge unit amount, like Roy+12 or so. Excluding Roy your 12:th best unit most likely isn't doubling either so Lilina should be at least comparable on offense. Defensively she has no excuse for being ORKO'd for quite a while but at least she helps Roy survive with an immediate C.

[Colonel M]

The problem is what you're asking for is a very large jump tier-wise, hence why I wanted her combating be seen at a closer glance. You don't have to wholeheartedly compare her to a character; just so long as you're showing that she's being a positive somehow (support battery won't suddenly make her jump a tier alone).

[Quasar]

I never said anything about support battery either - I said she's better than Hugh at combat. Of her performance I can say Anima is very accurate, enemy Res is low and she has (1-)2 range while remembering in most cases she does not double.

Since there's no mention of negative utility on the front page I'll still say she's better than Hugh not existing.

That's all you'll get from me until +/- is defined more accurately, and until that this should be more than enough especially considering how Hugh costs 20k to recruit and is a negative in his own regard.