Efficiency Tier List?

[Quasar]

50 kills/100 hits/any combination in 7 chapters when he doesn't double and is 2RKO'd for a few after the first chapter?

Technically he said in six chapters, which is even more silly.

Why does A spears matter anyway?

I'll post enemy comparisons for Alan and Rutger after sleeping, if I have the time.

[grandjackal]

2-3RKOd, and someone forgot about the Javelin Lance starts with, and has no business using when he's got swords against axers, where in the next chapter we can buy him a new one anyways. Attacks don't have to hit, I've whiffed and still built rank. I've went through it 3 times, every time I nail A rank by chapter 7.

As for why it's important, you get a Silver Lance in chapter 6. Since Marcus already has one, and Zealot doesn't show up till chapter 7 anyways...Putting hte Silver Lance to immediate use there is great. On average, Boris can 3RKO the wyvern, which is crazy considering only other people doing that are like archers, Marcus, or Ward. He'll have quite a durability lead by now too.

This isn't ranked, you can still be durable without having to dodge all the time. Especially in the beginning. Really, I find Boris to be severely underrated.

[_____]

2-3RKOd, and someone forgot about the Javelin Lance starts with, and has no business using when he's got swords against axers, where in the next chapter we can buy him a new one anyways. Attacks don't have to hit, I've whiffed and still built rank. I've went through it 3 times, every time I nail A rank by chapter 7.

There are 110 enemies in chapters 1-6, not counting reinforcements. We would be giving Bors half of our kills if we got him to A lances. Excluding bosses (Bors is mediocre against them), the group of enemies that Bors can't reach in the latter half of Chapter 2, the enemies to the top of Chapter 3, the enemies in the forests in the top half of Chapter 5 because it slows him down even more, and the two rooms in the top corners of Chapter 6, we have 70 enemies that Bors can reach in a reasonable time frame. You want him to kill 2/3 of those units? I don't think so. Even if he just throws a javelin haphazardly and misses, he'd never be able to keep up with your other units as they went on with the chapter.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

2-3RKOd, and someone forgot about the Javelin Lance starts with, and has no business using when he's got swords against axers, where in the next chapter we can buy him a new one anyways. Attacks don't have to hit, I've whiffed and still built rank. I've went through it 3 times, every time I nail A rank by chapter 7.

There are 110 enemies in chapters 1-6, not counting reinforcements. We would be giving Bors half of our kills if we got him to A lances. Excluding bosses (Bors is mediocre against them), the group of enemies that Bors can't reach in the latter half of Chapter 2, the enemies to the top of Chapter 3, the enemies in the forests in the top half of Chapter 5 because it slows him down even more, and the two rooms in the top corners of Chapter 6, we have 70 enemies that Bors can reach in a reasonable time frame. You want him to kill 2/3 of those units? I don't think so. Even if he just throws a javelin haphazardly and misses, he'd never be able to keep up with your other units as they went on with the chapter.

Here's the thing though, I'm not. In fact right now, he's currently a level lower than the rest of my team, save the healers and thief.

As for keeping up with the rest of your units, that is a bullshit statement. Chapter 1, everyone's moving slow and everyone on hte team is basically not Marcus. Chapter 2, Boris is spearheading the action, and in the stretch between Roy and Deick's group, transporting Boris is not a problem. You have 3 cavs, and only 2 others to care about transporting (Roy, Ellen). Getting him to Deick's group is not an issue. Chapter 3, he's got a few options as this is more of a "gateramming" chapter, where you just bust through wave after wave that charges at you until you're at the throne. Considering those cavs will come to you faster than most of your team, him seeing action whether he goes to save Lou or goes to bust down the front door, he will see action just fine. Chapter 4, again the enemy pretty much comes to you wave after wave, then they come knocking on the back door. Again, Boris not seeing action is rediculous. Chapter 5...Different story, and may be his worst chapter. He's basically in the back. We could opt to go left, but the mage there has an easy time slaying him. To go the normal route, he needs transportation. Only good thing is that you got others to help get Boris off the horse like Ward, and most of your important guys are already in the front. This chapter regardless is just bad to him though. Chapter 6...It's a dinky map, and again the game throws reinforcements at you from front or back.

As for haphazardly flinging javelins, brings me to another point about the bosses. As you try to kill them, there's no reason not to have him fling javelins. Either the bosses don't have a ranged weapon, or they have a hard time killing him anyways (save Dorias, that badass dude in chapter 5).

I hardly see a situation where he actually doesn't see action. Hell, he basically starts more durable than everyone on your team save Marcus (Roy, Allen, Lance and Wolt al get easily 2RKOd by the axers, at least Boris on occasion can take 3 rounds).

I just don't see Boris as low. It helps that he's a weapon rank above the cavs to get to Silver faster.

[Fei Mao]

Isn't one of the problem with Bors in hard mode is him getting doubled? unless he gains speed in his level ups? Yeah his 40% chance to gain speed and 35% to get defense is good but still a chance to get them stat ups.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Jason W.

[grandjackal]

Isn't one of the problem with Bors in hard mode is him getting doubled? unless he gains speed in his level ups?

It happens a bit...in chapter 1 and 5. Otherwise, he couldn't give a shit about being doubled, and grows out of it quick enough. This isn't ranked, son.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I just don't see Boris as low. It helps that he's a weapon rank above the cavs to get to Silver faster.

Hmm...

Note 1: All weapons give 1 Weapon EXP per hit.

Note 2: Fatal hits give 2 Weapon EXP instead of 1.

Bors cannot double so he's stuck to 1 WEXP, 2 when you feed a kill to him.

Alan and Lance can double so they'll get 2 WEXP often enough. 3 when they get a kill and this is much easier for them to accomplish.

"It helps that his weapon rank is above the Cavs so he doesn't fall behind so quickly in that department" would be the better way to put it.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

I just don't see Boris as low. It helps that he's a weapon rank above the cavs to get to Silver faster.

Hmm...

Note 1: All weapons give 1 Weapon EXP per hit.

Note 2: Fatal hits give 2 Weapon EXP instead of 1.

Bors cannot double so he's stuck to 1 WEXP, 2 when you feed a kill to him.

Alan and Lance can double so they'll get 2 WEXP often enough. 3 when they get a kill and this is much easier for them to accomplish.

"It helps that his weapon rank is above the Cavs so he doesn't fall behind so quickly in that department" would be the better way to put it.

Lances aren't their only weapon, they aren't always using lances every attack.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Lances aren't their only weapon, they aren't always using lances every attack.

Yet it doesn't change the fact that they'll get there first however and certainly don't require much effort to have them attack an enemy while 4 MOV says "I NEED HELP!!!"

150 WEXP is easier to obtain when you double and have a much easier time killing as opposed to 100 WEXP when you can't double and require transportation just to be able to attack an enemy.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Sirius

[_____]

Here's the thing though, I'm not. In fact right now, he's currently a level lower than the rest of my team, save the healers and thief.

Alright...? That's still 100 hits/misses or 50 kills.

As for keeping up with the rest of your units, that is a bullshit statement. Chapter 1, everyone's moving slow and everyone on hte team is basically not Marcus.

Chapter 1 also has, like, 10 enemies, and 6 people to attack them with. His durability is actually worse than the rest of your units because quite a few enemies double him and they have 80-90~ hit rates on him due to WTD.

Chapter 2, Boris is spearheading the action, and in the stretch between Roy and Deick's group, transporting Boris is not a problem. You have 3 cavs, and only 2 others to care about transporting (Roy, Ellen). Getting him to Deick's group is not an issue.

I am getting sick of this transporting shit. We're lowering Lance and Alan's offense just so Bors can do a damn thing in the chapter. For them to even transport him without it being a hindrance, they need to kill all of the enemies near them, and by that point, Dieck's group has already shown up and has likely taken out one or two enemies. Then, we have to haul his fat ass over to them, which will take a turn or two anyway. Most of the enemies over there will be gone by that point. Leaving him behind would probably be more efficient.

As if that wasn't enough, there are still 7 speed fighters that double him.

Chapter 3, he's got a few options as this is more of a "gateramming" chapter, where you just bust through wave after wave that charges at you until you're at the throne. Considering those cavs will come to you faster than most of your team, him seeing action whether he goes to save Lou or goes to bust down the front door, he will see action just fine.

Either way, he won't see action from half of the units in the chapter. If he recruits Lugh, he's out of commission for half of the chapter. If he goes for the boss, he needs to be lugged around again by Lance, Alan, or Marcus, lowering their offense and has to avoid the boss because he has more 7 Speed Fighters around him, while Bors might even be base level due to lack of action.

Chapter 4, again the enemy pretty much comes to you wave after wave, then they come knocking on the back door. Again, Boris not seeing action is rediculous.

I know, which is why I didn't say he had any trouble getting action in this chapter.

Chapter 5...Different story, and may be his worst chapter. He's basically in the back. We could opt to go left, but the mage there has an easy time slaying him. To go the normal route, he needs transportation. Only good thing is that you got others to help get Boris off the horse like Ward, and most of your important guys are already in the front. This chapter regardless is just bad to him though.

Glad we agree.

Chapter 6...It's a dinky map, and again the game throws reinforcements at you from front or back.

Bors can't go for the middle group because of the mages. He'll just slow you down if he goes the left or right because he can't even double the soldiers that attack and there are even more mages near the throne room and bordering rooms. I guess he can take on a few reinforcements, but you'll probably finish the chapter soon after or even before that if you don't care about Cath or the treasure.

As for haphazardly flinging javelins, brings me to another point about the bosses. As you try to kill them, there's no reason not to have him fling javelins. Either the bosses don't have a ranged weapon, or they have a hard time killing him anyways (save Dorias, that badass dude in chapter 5).

Because it wastes a ton of uses that could be used for something useful? That helps nobody but Bors and is actually a detriment to Lance, who would much prefer using the Javelin for something productive.

I hardly see a situation where he actually doesn't see action. Hell, he basically starts more durable than everyone on your team save Marcus (Roy, Allen, Lance and Wolt al get easily 2RKOd by the axers, at least Boris on occasion can take 3 rounds).

Barely more durable, with horrible move that stops him from getting into the thick of things as I've shown, and pretty meh offense.

High tier!

[Colonel M]

You're not really neutering Alan, Lance, and Marcus's offense. In reality you're using both Alan and Lance (or Marcus) to do this:

1) Cav picks up Bors and moves.

2) Other Cav comes by and drops Bors off.

At worst the Cavs lose a Player Phase which isn't a major deal in some point because sometimes enemies may not be around them or it's simply better to take the counterattack on the Enemy Phase then clean up on the next Player Phase. I'm only stating this because Ninji mentioned that we're lowering the Cavs offense when in reality it isn't totally true.

[_____]

You're not really neutering Alan, Lance, and Marcus's offense. In reality you're using both Alan and Lance (or Marcus) to do this:

1) Cav picks up Bors and moves.

2) Other Cav comes by and drops Bors off.

At worst the Cavs lose a Player Phase which isn't a major deal in some point because sometimes enemies may not be around them or it's simply better to take the counterattack on the Enemy Phase then clean up on the next Player Phase. I'm only stating this because Ninji mentioned that we're lowering the Cavs offense when in reality it isn't totally true.

You can't pretend that losing a player phase for both characters just so Bors can be mediocre on frontlines isn't a problem. It should also be noted that on larger maps, Bors may require transportation more than once because he fell behind the pack. Granted, this doesn't affect him in Chapters 1-6 since they aren't too big, but later on, it may happen.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Ninji

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Then there's also the fact that others could use some transportation as well... in C8 for example. Arguing transportation for Bors seems like a bit of favoritism to me. I mean, why focus this transportation point on Bors when others such as Roy could use it too? Roy does better against the soldiers and it helps make it easier to build support with the Cavaliers.

[Colonel M]

I was just correcting the statement. It's true that anyone can be transported by the Cavs. Bors certainly isn't an exception to the rule. (Roy is usually the best choice anyway due to supports).

[grandjackal]

Because Boris doesn't need supports to be durable. You don't need to bring Boris's friends with him. You only need bring him. On top of that, Roy can be brought for his support, but the problem is that then the cavs HAVE to brin him, they can't just drop and forget while Boris helps smack up some bitches. Roy has to be brought with them, and constantly weighing down one of our cavs, saying someone is ruining cav offense...

I say this because unlike Boris, Roy is defenseless without his supports.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because Boris doesn't need supports to be durable.

I didn't know Roy was going down in 1 hit, terrain didn't exist and the avoid formula's the same as FESD's.

On top of that, Roy can be brought for his support, but the problem is that then the cavs HAVE to brin him, they can't just drop and forget while Boris helps smack up some bitches.

This is stupid. For the most part, Bors HAS to use transportation to even "smack up some bitches" while Roy's basically doing the same as well as providing supports to those that brought him (Alan and Lance). And let's not forget the fact that Bors has some hit issues early on in the game so say you transport him in range of an enemy and he doesn't hit... well that's no good, both Cavs may have to fight that enemy on the next turn.

Roy has to be brought with them, and constantly weighing down one of our cavs, saying someone is ruining cav offense...

I say this because unlike Boris, Roy is defenseless without his supports.

Again, Roy is not getting killed in 1 hit and avoid exists. This is pretty much a double standard, you're bashing Roy for "needing" to be transported by the Cavaliers and yet suggesting the same for Bors when HE NEEDS IT EVEN MORE.

The only thing you're accomplishing with giving Bors priority on transportation is just favoritism.

At least Roy is helping himself and the cavs with the supports. Who the fuck is Bors really helping with that favoritism? Just himself with some Lance WEXP and 1-10 EXP from hitting an enemy. What a waste.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Because Boris doesn't need supports to be durable.

I didn't know Roy was going down in 1 hit, terrain didn't exist and the avoid formula's the same as FESD's.

Right, because Roy is a stand-alone tank who's got enemies pulling 30 displayed hit all by himself, isn't he? He's not getting ORKOd, but he's not much better.

On top of that, Roy can be brought for his support, but the problem is that then the cavs HAVE to brin him, they can't just drop and forget while Boris helps smack up some bitches.

This is stupid. For the most part, Bors HAS to use transportation to even "smack up some bitches" while Roy's basically doing the same as well as providing supports to those that brought him (Alan and Lance). And let's not forget the fact that Bors has some hit issues early on in the game so say you transport him in range of an enemy and he doesn't hit... well that's no good, both Cavs may have to fight that enemy on the next turn.

Some maps have immediate action, so that's a wrong. What's perfectly fine about it is that Boris might not have the best hit, but he's not dying anytime soon. He's durable, and he can prove a distraction. The less Alan and Lance have to hang around, the sooner they can power ahead. Boris can do this, supports or no.

Roy has to be brought with them, and constantly weighing down one of our cavs, saying someone is ruining cav offense...

I say this because unlike Boris, Roy is defenseless without his supports.

Again, Roy is not getting killed in 1 hit and avoid exists. This is pretty much a double standard, you're bashing Roy for "needing" to be transported by the Cavaliers and yet suggesting the same for Bors when HE NEEDS IT EVEN MORE.

The only thing you're accomplishing with giving Bors priority on transportation is just favoritism.

At least Roy is helping himself and the cavs with the supports. Who the fuck is Bors really helping with that favoritism? Just himself with some Lance WEXP and 1-10 EXP from hitting an enemy. What a waste.

Needing it more is barely an issue, as he is the best benefit. Who better to throw down in front of you than a standalone wall? I'd rather have that and power my cavs ahead than a support battery I gotta continuously lug around with me. Boris can be set and forget, but Roy's constantly weighing one or the other down. Boris needs transport, Roy needs supports and constant protection. Transportation seems less a big deal. Especially since with Boris they can just power ahead and let him take care of things, while on the other hand with Roy they need to stick around until Roy's done doing whatever, then picking him back up to keep bringing him with them.

But let's say Roy does get to go with them. Still a spare cav. You can also bring Boris. Would be kinda stupid to bring anyone else without their supports.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[_____]

Needing it more is barely an issue, as he is the best benefit. Who better to throw down in front of you than a standalone wall?

Bors is nowhere near being a standalone wall. Not even close.

[grandjackal]

Needing it more is barely an issue, as he is the best benefit. Who better to throw down in front of you than a standalone wall?

Bors is nowhere near being a standalone wall. Not even close.

Your numbers are astounding

[_____]

You've said it yourself on multiple occaisions, so I don't feel the need to prove to you what you already know.

[grandjackal]

If this was at the time I was saying basically "If you don't have supports, you can't tank" deal, that ship has sailed. Boris is still a capable wall on his own, save chapter 1 (where he's still mroe durable than most your guys anyways on a small scale) and 5 (where he does indeed blow monkey chunks).

[_____]

He's 2-3 rounded by most enemies, barring, like, Soldiers, and has no offense, really. It's not as great as you say.

[grandjackal]

He's 2-3 rounded by most enemies, barring, like, Soldiers, and has no offense, really. It's not as great as you say.

Most enemies being the axers in chapter 1 and 5. Everything else he's actually rather tough against.

Offense may not be great, but I want a wall I can count on, rather than risking the offense on a cav drop. The point is he needs no baggage to do what he does.

[Quasar]

So who's gonna carry him around after promotion when he's still slow as fuck? This was already brought up by someone (dondon?) but I'll bring it up again. There's no way a tier gap between him and Ward isn't justified. Being able to be carried is why it's only a one tier gap. Also in any chapter where Bors is "spearheading the offense" I really question the efficiency of the playthrough.

Edit: Someone take over Alan and Rutger, I just don't have the time to look at them. I'm not confident Alan is better, yet I doubt Rutger is a winner either and it should definitely be looked at, especially because Rutger was moved due supports of all things. My doubts with Alan are mostly because I'm afraid he's ranked for helping Roy survive. If Rutger is better it should be because he's a better character, not because his supports are "worse" than Lance's..

Also god damn Wolf, if you have this much time to hit your head against a wall (Bors) you have time to make a numerical statement of how Klein is better than Fir. Or just move Fir above him, they're still "equal".

Edited August 14, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

Boris isn't so called "spearheading", the cavs carrying him do that. The thing is with his durability, he makes the perfect drop. He can basically distract the enemy from going after your cavs, so they can power ahead at full power, and Boris can keep up his defenses till the rest of the footsoldiers get there, where they'll have plenty of weakened enemies to gum down.

As for numerical reasons....Uhh...Just go look at their starting stats. Klein just starts leagues ahead of her, and needs no promotion item. in exchange he slows down while she catches up, but he still has his uses despite how by then, Fir will be a murderface. They really are just complete yet equal opposites.