Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

-1 Str can be the difference between borderline and cleanly not killing.

When you're packing 15 STR, doubling and packing any bow you damn well wish? I highly doubt it.

So you're going to make me give numbers when you won't yourself? Do you think +3 Def and +25 avoid is negligible also?

You brought it up, and Tate has other problems than that. Offense namely. Con is another.

Notice I said "until she promotes." Depending on how long that takes, she could easily have a B with Dieck already.

So both would warrent basically the same thing, now tell me. Which one is less intensive with having to have units cling to eachother? With Deick, this is 59+60 turns of him being right next to Clarine. This is him not being out and about. Klein however only takes 4+20. Much less intensive, and thus leaves me more free to move my units the way I wish.

I beg to differ. Roy has problems keeping up with the Cavalier pair in ways DieckxClarinexRutger has none. Also, Roy as a character isn't that great in combat, and also caps out and doesn't even get to fight for a while. LancexAlan A is definitely good, but I can't see a triangle with Roy being their best option given the issues with it. Clarine and Lot can both do a better job filling his B support, and Alan can also take Tate, thought his position is worse than Lance's unless Ward is in play.

People always assume RoyxAlanxLance, but I question it's viability, especially since move differences are always being argued for everyone else.

It's been brought up before. Rutger should be > the cavs.

If Roy's a problem *cough*MARCUS*cough*. Seriously, his only problem is lategame his offense is meh.

The fact that they're also pretty flexible with their supports helps their case as well. Rutger has a bigger problem with supports than they do, he doesn't have their mobility, their triangle control, their range options, and is perhaps a bit more needing of his supports than they are. Without support crit boosts, he'd be pretty dependent on killer weapons. His luck also doesn't do him many favors.

I'd put my faith in the cavs more than Rutger, as much as a tendency he has to murder whatever he touches later on.

But when is it building?

When they're next to eachother, dur.

He needs to if he wants to fight.

Just how far back are you keeping your dancers?

K

...Not even gonna roll with it?

[Florete]

-1 Str can be the difference between borderline and cleanly not killing.

When you're packing 15 STR, doubling and packing any bow you damn well wish? I highly doubt it.

And what about when he stops doubling everything?

So you're going to make me give numbers when you won't yourself? Do you think +3 Def and +25 avoid is negligible also?

You brought it up, and Tate has other problems than that. Offense namely. Con is another.

She'll generally have enough Spd to mostly override her low Con. Sure, the support doesn't help offensively except for Hit, but full Defensive boosts are still quite awesome, and they help Klein a lot as well, more than Clarine helps him. I think the only reason you don't want this pairing is because you like brotherxsister relationships.

Notice I said "until she promotes." Depending on how long that takes, she could easily have a B with Dieck already.

So both would warrent basically the same thing, now tell me. Which one is less intensive with having to have units cling to eachother? With Deick, this is 59+60 turns of him being right next to Clarine. This is him not being out and about. Klein however only takes 4+20. Much less intensive, and thus leaves me more free to move my units the way I wish.

No, this is Dieck killing something, then Clarine running up and healing him, or healing someone diagonal to him. I predict you comparing this to the Bard issue, but it is not the same.

If Roy's a problem *cough*MARCUS*cough*. Seriously, his only problem is lategame his offense is meh.

His early game isn't so great either. I don't have exact numbers now, but I recall him having some issues doubling and also being not so amazing durably.

The fact that they're also pretty flexible with their supports helps their case as well. Rutger has a bigger problem with supports than they do, he doesn't have their mobility, their triangle control, their range options, and is perhaps a bit more needing of his supports than they are. Without support crit boosts, he'd be pretty dependent on killer weapons. His luck also doesn't do him many favors.

What's wrong with depending on something in high supply? 50+ crit rates even without supports and having pretty much the best offense as long as you exist > WTC. He's also helping two other top tier characters, or Fir if one of them isn't open.

But when is it building?

When they're next to eachother, dur.

Yeah, and when is that?

He needs to if he wants to fight.

Just how far back are you keeping your dancers?

So that they aren't attacked. They dance so others can extend their player and enemy phases. They shouldn't be next to people very often.

K

...Not even gonna roll with it?

?

"K" means "I agree."

[grandjackal]

And what about when he stops doubling everything?

1 Damage? Someone call the waaaambulance.

She'll generally have enough Spd to mostly override her low Con. Sure, the support doesn't help offensively except for Hit, but full Defensive boosts are still quite awesome, and they help Klein a lot as well, more than Clarine helps him. I think the only reason you don't want this pairing is because you like brotherxsister relationships.

Let's be adults now. Besides, Clairine is quite underage, that would be creepy.

On a practical level I could see this as plausable or even great, Problem is, is Tate worth it? Is her offense at least passable?

No, this is Dieck killing something, then Clarine running up and healing him, or healing someone diagonal to him. I predict you comparing this to the Bard issue, but it is not the same.

But I totally could, because it is. Both healer and dancer run up to people and benefit them.

What's wrong with depending on something in high supply? 50+ crit rates even without supports and having pretty much the best offense as long as you exist > WTC. He's also helping two other top tier characters, or Fir if one of them isn't open.

Because killer weapons are a tad fragile, and don't really give you a lot of versatility. They're also 1,300 a pop. I know funds don't enter into this, but we do have a budget to mind. If we're buying him nothing but killer edges, he's gonna put a dent into our gold.

Yeah, and when is that?

When Elphin is giving a lapdance to someone else, obviously. Last I heard, Cecilia likes her some twinks.

So that they aren't attacked. They dance so others can extend their player and enemy phases. They shouldn't be next to people very often.

I could see it a problem if they were being one rounded, but supports help them avoid that problem. Less I have to worry about safety, the closer my dancer can approach and dance a frontliner. They can't exactly dance someone offensive when they're way in the back.

?

"K" means "I agree."

...Sorry, perhaps it's habit ;;>> When I learn something new, I look into it as microscopically as possible, thus why my arguments at times devolve into walls of text, and...You know how I am ;;>>

[Florete]

And what about when he stops doubling everything?

1 Damage? Someone call the waaaambulance.

I will when it prevents Klein from 1/2 rounding.

And it's not even just Str. If we were to round, level 5 Lalum Klein would have 15 Spd while level 5 Elphin Klein would have 14, and Spd is often a bigger issue than Str.

On a practical level I could see this as plausable or even great, Problem is, is Tate worth it? Is her offense at least passable?

I'm pretty sure it is, and it only helps your case. You do realize that by opposing this you're actually hurting your case, and by going for it I'm helping your case?

No, this is Dieck killing something, then Clarine running up and healing him, or healing someone diagonal to him. I predict you comparing this to the Bard issue, but it is not the same.

But I totally could, because it is. Both healer and dancer run up to people and benefit them.

Only, the person the Dancer runs up to runs away right after.

What's wrong with depending on something in high supply? 50+ crit rates even without supports and having pretty much the best offense as long as you exist > WTC. He's also helping two other top tier characters, or Fir if one of them isn't open.

Because killer weapons are a tad fragile, and don't really give you a lot of versatility. They're also 1,300 a pop. I know funds don't enter into this, but we do have a budget to mind. If we're buying him nothing but killer edges, he's gonna put a dent into our gold.

Then you also consider that at promotion with full supports, he'll have 96 innate crit. After taking Luck into account, that means he'll be killing ~90% of the enemies in a single hit, so a single Killing Edge can kill approximately 19 enemies with it's 20 uses. Let's say you compare that to someone using Steel who always doubles but doesn't crit, and they're only killing 15 enemies with it, considering they can even kill in two hits (a crit is effectively 3 hits). It's even worse for Silver, but that's also more likely to double/2HKO. And then Iron can get 22-23 enemies doubling, but with much lower chances of actually 2HKOing.

So, the money. If Rutger kills 19 enemies with a Killing Edge, each enemy cost ~68.4 gold. If Alan or Lance use a full Silver Lance to kill 10 enemies, that's 120 per enemy. Steel has a tough time doubling for characters not named Gonzales and Iron has a tough time killing in one round. Then consider that every time Rutger crits, he doesn't take a counter, and you realize Killing Edges on him are actually pretty efficient.

This applies to Fir as well, only she has a bit less crit.

Yeah, and when is that?

When Elphin is giving a lapdance to someone else, obviously. Last I heard, Cecilia likes her some twinks.

...When did Cecilia come into this? Also, this point was about Lalum and Echidna, not Elphin.

So that they aren't attacked. They dance so others can extend their player and enemy phases. They shouldn't be next to people very often.

I could see it a problem if they were being one rounded, but supports help them avoid that problem. Less I have to worry about safety, the closer my dancer can approach and dance a frontliner. They can't exactly dance someone offensive when they're way in the back.

You can generally have them close enough to the team to Dance, but far enough away to not be attacked. It's just that when they're right next to someone, what's stopping a ranged enemy from showing up and attacking your helpless Dancer?

[grandjackal]

I will when it prevents Klein from 1/2 rounding.

And it's not even just Str. If we were to round, level 5 Lalum Klein would have 15 Spd while level 5 Elphin Klein would have 14, and Spd is often a bigger issue than Str.

14 AS has quite a bit of longevity where 15 AS wouldn't exactly matter, I'd actually fear 1 Str more, and 1 STR is pitiful. We both know Klein slows down eventually, but he's still got his uses, such as Sacae or Bern's anti-air.

I'm pretty sure it is, and it only helps your case. You do realize that by opposing this you're actually hurting your case, and by going for it I'm helping your case?

Isn't it weird we're both so sick of this, we're both trying to help eachother out?

Only, the person the Dancer runs up to runs away right after.

And units can attack over Deick's shoulder, putting Clarine in danger, your point?

Then you also consider that at promotion with full supports, he'll have 96 innate crit. After taking Luck into account, that means he'll be killing ~90% of the enemies in a single hit, so a single Killing Edge can kill approximately 19 enemies with it's 20 uses. Let's say you compare that to someone using Steel who always doubles but doesn't crit, and they're only killing 15 enemies with it, considering they can even kill in two hits (a crit is effectively 3 hits). It's even worse for Silver, but that's also more likely to double/2HKO. And then Iron can get 22-23 enemies doubling, but with much lower chances of actually 2HKOing.

So, the money. If Rutger kills 19 enemies with a Killing Edge, each enemy cost ~68.4 gold. If Alan or Lance use a full Silver Lance to kill 10 enemies, that's 120 per enemy. Steel has a tough time doubling for characters not named Gonzales and Iron has a tough time killing in one round. Then consider that every time Rutger crits, he doesn't take a counter, and you realize Killing Edges on him are actually pretty efficient.

This applies to Fir as well, only she has a bit less crit.

Yet without those supports, he lost a pretty damn important 25 crit, avoid and 2 def, along with crit evade. Rutger's quite vulnerable without his supports later on, especially to lances.

Fir is the same, except more luck and less durability. And Strength. Basically, a completely inferior version of Rutger.

...When did Cecilia come into this? Also, this point was about Lalum and Echidna, not Elphin.

Just randomly felt like sniping at Cecilia.

Anyways, I don't see the problem it would have with Lalum and Echidna either.

You can generally have them close enough to the team to Dance, but far enough away to not be attacked. It's just that when they're right next to someone, what's stopping a ranged enemy from showing up and attacking your helpless Dancer?

If you dance someone, generally it's to mop up or forge ahead. We defend her by killing everything around, which she helps us do. With supports, we are given even more leeway. Defending a dancer/bard is not hard.

[Florete]

Isn't it weird we're both so sick of this, we're both trying to help eachother out?

Except I've been going on about that for forever.

Only, the person the Dancer runs up to runs away right after.

And units can attack over Deick's shoulder, putting Clarine in danger, your point?

But Dieck just killed a guy. It's ultimately less likely for a unit to be around in the healer's position, and Clarine has leeway in her high move also, and a lot of time, especially during the early game with fewer ranged enemies.

Yet without those supports, he lost a pretty damn important 25 crit, avoid and 2 def, along with crit evade. Rutger's quite vulnerable without his supports later on, especially to lances.

And without supports Lance and Alan lose a pretty important +25 avoid and +5 atk, among other things like +1 def (which Lance can get more of from Clarine/Lot) and some Hit. Actually, if only because of Lot and Clarine, I think I could see Lance>Rutger>Alan.

Fir is the same, except more luck and less durability. And Strength. Basically, a completely inferior version of Rutger.

And thus we get Rutger > Fir.

...When did Cecilia come into this? Also, this point was about Lalum and Echidna, not Elphin.

Just randomly felt like sniping at Cecilia.

Anyways, I don't see the problem it would have with Lalum and Echidna either.

It's even worse for Echidna since she's more likely to fight at range than Dieck, at least until Dieck promotes, but then Clarine isn't far behind anyway.

You can generally have them close enough to the team to Dance, but far enough away to not be attacked. It's just that when they're right next to someone, what's stopping a ranged enemy from showing up and attacking your helpless Dancer?

If you dance someone, generally it's to mop up or forge ahead. We defend her by killing everything around, which she helps us do. With supports, we are given even more leeway. Defending a dancer/bard is not hard.

I never it was hard, just that it's unlikely to be right next to someone when their job causes others to move away.

[grandjackal]

Alright, this is just getting out of hand. Let's make a compromise.

I will say that Rutger can go over Alan. However, how about we place Fir and Klein together? They're like complete yet equal opposites.

[Florete]

Alright, this is just getting out of hand. Let's make a compromise.

I will say that Rutger can go over Alan. However, how about we place Fir and Klein together? They're like complete yet equal opposites.

I actually thought about suggesting that but figured it would be inappropriate. Anyone who hasn't seen all this will come in and be like "Wth? How are they the same?" I won't oppose it, but I'm warning you it will be brought up again.

I still think Rutger could be > Lance, but meh, I brought up advantages for Lance anyway, so I'll roll.

[grandjackal]

Alright, this is just getting out of hand. Let's make a compromise.

I will say that Rutger can go over Alan. However, how about we place Fir and Klein together? They're like complete yet equal opposites.

I actually thought about suggesting that but figured it would be inappropriate. Anyone who hasn't seen all this will come in and be like "Wth? How are they the same?" I won't oppose it, but I'm warning you it will be brought up again.

I still think Rutger could be > Lance, but meh, I brought up advantages for Lance anyway, so I'll roll.

Finally....sorta.

So, what other shitstorms could we both start on this list? Any other ideas?

[Dat Nick]

Yeah, that is definitly not the way to go about things as Klein/Fir are clearly not equals.

[Colonel M]

I'm thinking Rutgar > Cavs is a slight issue, and I point to slight because despite not being awesome boss killers they have many other benefits to the team in general. I'm not seeing it myself tbh.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, that is definitly not the way to go about things as Klein/Fir are clearly not equals.

Please suggest something else for now, I beg of you...

[Fei Mao]

Zealot and OJ? Dosen't Zealot have more uses than OJ and OJ needs babying to catch up to your team Zealot can weaken enemies and rescue people. (unless if someone already made a Zealot above OJ argument)

[Florete]

I could see Thany > Zeiss. Statistically, she's nothing special, but neither is Zeiss when he shows up, and she'll at least be better than him by then. Plus, she helps out a lot in the early game as the only flier. She can provide good support for Dieck, Ward, Tate, and/or Lot, because Wind affinity is actually helpful for all of them except Tate (whom she'd only want a B with anyway). In fact, if Roy isn't traingling with Lance and Alan, she can support him as well, and since she's not exactly entirely durable, the move difference isn't as much of a deal, though she'll go with the others before him.

Zeiss comes to late to really support anyone except maybe his sister, but she doesn't really need him anyway. So supports easily go to Thany.

Statistically, we all know Thany isn't very good. However, she has her uses. She'll double quite a lot despite low Con. She can also promote early (I'd say around level 16) since 3 Elysian Whips means absolutely no competition, no matter what your team is. She can partially offset her low Str through Killer Lances, and at 16/1 she'll have 38 innate crit, and with supports she can boost it as high as 63. And then she has 180% avoid growth as well.

In the end, her concrete durability and basic offense suck, but she can be made useful, while Zeiss actually has problems getting doubled. So yeah, Thany > Zeiss.

[grandjackal]

Both sound good to me. Any objections?

[Quasar]

Fir and Klein definitely shouldn't be on par (it might seem that they are if you only focus on arguing their supports for three pages and I don't doubt that this is a nice, friendly result for both of you but they're really not equal) and I don't see Rutger being better than Alan either. At very least I'd like to see some (numerical) reasoning.

Edit: I also have an objection to Thany being better than Zeiss due her massive negative utility. Cab service is cool and all but doubling for one damage isn't impressive. Zeiss is amazing at join compared to what Thany was, only embarrassing himself with weapon skill and speed. You could also argue since there's no serious competion for Zeiss' promotion item he can promote at 10 and fix some of his issues.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Quasar

[Florete]

As for Fir and Klein, it spiraled into supports (That's one of the things I hate about this game, everyone has 5+ partners), but I had that first post that showed how Fir is generally statistically better against enemies, and you can just replace Noah with Bartre if Noah isn't in play.

As for Rutger vs the Cavs, it's mainly offense vs utility and stuff. I showed earlier how a promoted Rutger has 96 crit w/ a Killing Edge, which will let him kill anything in a single hit, which pretty much gives him the best offense possible.

As for a start, let's say the cavs are level 4 by Chapter 4 and have gotten a C support with each other. Rutger's 15 AS doubles literally everything while even Lance's 9-10 AS might only double Hand Axe Pirates. Even with their support, Rutger has about the same atk as them with identical weapons, so he clearly has an offensive advantage. All of them are generally being about 3 rounded by Iron Lance enemies, less by Sword enemies, and lol at Axe enemies. Rutger's supports will increase both his durability and offensive lead on them. Something like A Clarine/B Dieck gives +25 avoid, +25 crit, and +2 Def. He'll usually have better HP due to a better base, slightly less Def, better Res, and better avoid, coupled with doubling everything and, upon promotion, criticaling the shit out of everyone.

Of course, Alan and Lance have other partners as well. Roy is usually the given one, but I question it's viability because of Roy having 5 move for 90% of the game and capping out for half of it. However, Lance still has good secondary options in both Lot and Clarine, granting him more Def and avoid from both, which is part of why I suggested Lance>Rutger>Alan, because that could be a tie breaker.

[grandjackal]

Klein's support list is just as flexible, and they are both seriously equal opposites. It's hard to describe how weirdly they cancel eachother out.

As for Lance, Ruger and Alan...Alan's less flexible power would be enough to make him go below the bloody swordsman. Alan can be utility, but you gotta be a bit more specific with him. Basically what Red Fox said.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

14 AS has quite a bit of longevity

14 AS doesn't double a whole slew of enemies. While it's an accurate benchmark for slower enemies, Fir doubles everything whereas Klein doubles the enemies that half the cast can double.

As for Lance, Ruger and Alan...Alan's less flexible power would be enough to make him go below the bloody swordsman. Alan can be utility, but you gotta be a bit more specific with him. Basically what Red Fox said.

The only reason why I would be inclined to go with early cavs > Rutger is because Rutger doesn't have 2 range (and obviously 2 less move). Chapters 4-8 are a clear win for him because Allen and Lance still have doubling trouble. By chapter 8x enemies start either being weighed down or just slow to begin with, and then their offensive abilities converge to around the same level. After axe users stop dominating, Allen and Lance get axes, 2 range, and 2 move in comparison to Rutger's 30 crit, and I'd say the former are more useful advantages.

[Quasar]

As for Fir and Klein, it spiraled into supports (That's one of the things I hate about this game, everyone has 5+ partners), but I had that first post that showed how Fir is generally statistically better against enemies, and you can just replace Noah with Bartre if Noah isn't in play.

So statistically it seems Fir should be above Klein. At least nothing of contrary has been shown yet.

As for Rutger vs the Cavs, it's mainly offense vs utility and stuff. I showed earlier how a promoted Rutger has 96 crit w/ a Killing Edge, which will let him kill anything in a single hit, which pretty much gives him the best offense possible.

As for a start, let's say the cavs are level 4 by Chapter 4 and have gotten a C support with each other. Rutger's 15 AS doubles literally everything while even Lance's 9-10 AS might only double Hand Axe Pirates. Even with their support, Rutger has about the same atk as them with identical weapons, so he clearly has an offensive advantage. All of them are generally being about 3 rounded by Iron Lance enemies, less by Sword enemies, and lol at Axe enemies. Rutger's supports will increase both his durability and offensive lead on them. Something like A Clarine/B Dieck gives +25 avoid, +25 crit, and +2 Def. He'll usually have better HP due to a better base, slightly less Def, better Res, and better avoid, coupled with doubling everything and, upon promotion, criticaling the shit out of everyone.

You're right, it goes to offense vs utility etc. Chapter 4 for Rutger is kind of a moot point because he doesn't really have time to do a lot. At Ch 5 Rutger, while still stronger, already has a tough time against Lance due his crazy movement range. Lance also gains durability edge in the form of sword-using enemies and can use Javelin for 1-2 range. Promotion further increases the differences they have.

Of course, Alan and Lance have other partners as well. Roy is usually the given one, but I question it's viability because of Roy having 5 move for 90% of the game and capping out for half of it. However, Lance still has good secondary options in both Lot and Clarine, granting him more Def and avoid from both, which is part of why I suggested Lance>Rutger>Alan, because that could be a tie breaker.

I have yet to see a case in FE6 where supports are a huge deal. 1+1 supports can be safely ignored, X+1 can be a C by midgame and neglible afterwards (resulting in neglible stat gain). Really fasts supports with matching movement matter quite a bit, others, not so much. I also question Roy supporting the duo, unless he gets carried a lot.

[Florete]

You're right, it goes to offense vs utility etc. Chapter 4 for Rutger is kind of a moot point because he doesn't really have time to do a lot. At Ch 5 Rutger, while still stronger, already has a tough time against Lance due his crazy movement range. Lance also gains durability edge in the form of sword-using enemies and can use Javelin for 1-2 range. Promotion further increases the differences they have.

Like I said, I can deal with Lance > Rutger. Also, Chapter 4 shouldn't be completely disregarded for Rutger because he comes in time for some Cavalier reinforcements and Pirates.

I have yet to see a case in FE6 where supports are a huge deal. 1+1 supports can be safely ignored, X+1 can be a C by midgame and neglible afterwards (resulting in neglible stat gain). Really fasts supports with matching movement matter quite a bit, others, not so much. I also question Roy supporting the duo, unless he gets carried a lot.

I find 1+1 to be acceptable if it starts early enough, especially since I find the chapters in this game to take longer than other FE's on average. Big maps and all bosses having +3 Def/+30 avoid helps. Also, if the characters only need to get to B, 1+1 gets a lot faster in terms of where it needs to go.

Still, I find Rutger's ability to kill everything he faces post promotion, and mostly everything pre-promotion, with next to guaranteed supports > at least Alan. Lance doubles more though, so that's a different story. It comes to the point where even WTC isn't actually an advantage, because no one cares about WT if Rutger doesn't take counters (There's enemy phase of course, but he also has pretty awesome avoid, so he'll be fine).

Oh, and back to Thany vs Zeiss.

I'm going to retract my idea of Thany > Zeiss. I had recalled Zeiss being a lot worse at base, but after looking at 16x stats, I found out he was a lot better durably than I thought (being 4-6HKOd and actually not being doubled) and he still hits pretty damn hard with 19 base atk, so since Thany doesn't ORKO doubling isn't much of an advantage unless she takes a Killer weapon, but then she still loses durability and isn't very good before he shows while he's kinda good right away. It's close, but I'd actually give the win to Zeiss.

[grandjackal]

Fair enough, especially since the idea of Roy being open is pretty nice these days. On top of that, she at least has ways to boost her offense thanks to her Wind affinity. She's got Lot, Ward and Roy. Both give her avoid (tieing in well with her natural speed and luck, despite how minor the bonuses are) and strength (which her speedy-ass would love), most give crit (more delicious offense boost) and in Lot's case even a bit of defense. How much this would help I dunno, but her earlygame utility is enough to convince me. She's not shiny, but Zeiss shows up quite unpolished while Thany could have pulled...uhh...something off.

Anyone object though?

In fact, let's look into her supports...

...Ooh...Not good. I mean, she can work a square with Deick's troupe in some form at the same speed (10+2, fair enough with the time they got), problem is...Not much out of it. She's got Tate, but the problem is while it's fast...IcexWind sort of sucks. Then there's Roy. Awesome bonuses, but...1+1 speed. Then there's Zealot. WindxDark would be pretty awesome for both of them, but the big problem is it's Zealot.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Quasar]

I need to go to work like right now but I'll post what I managed to get done and continue later.

There's some competition for the promotion items but let's say both get theirs when they reach 20, which would be around 14x/15 or something.

20/1 Allan (B Lance), Killer Lance

-Supports: +2 Atk, +1 Def, +10 Avoid, +5 Crit

30 Atk

17 AS (12 w/ Steel Axe)

42 Crit

40 HP

14 Def

55 Avoid (WTT)

20/1 Rutger (C Clarine, C Dieck [tbh I don't think it's C yet but w/e]), Killing Edge

-Supports: +10 Avoid, +10 Crit

25 Atk

21 AS

81 Crit

43 HP

12 Def

60 Avoid

Alan is (very slightly) better with concrete durability and avoid once WTA is factored in. Rutger wins offense (slightly) but since Alan also doubles almost everything there are very few things he doesn't ORKO.

Edit: Quick addition. Rutger needs at least one crit to ORKO. Assuming he doubles everything his chance for ORKO with 70 crit chance on your average enemy would be 100-(3/10)*(3/10)=91% which is very reliable. His avoid is unreliable though, but more on that later.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

In other news, I still do not see Boris as Low material. He can be helpful earlygame, and I have played through it many times, not once have I not gotten an A rank in spears with him by chapter 7 without favoritism. He's got bump points, but I don't see a tier difference between him and Ward.

[_____]

In other news, I still do not see Boris as Low material. He can be helpful earlygame, and I have played through it many times, not once have I not gotten an A rank in spears with him by chapter 7 without favoritism. He's got bump points, but I don't see a tier difference between him and Ward.

50 kills/100 hits/any combination in 7 chapters when he doesn't double and is 2RKO'd for a few after the first chapter?

That's bullshit, buddy.