Efficiency Tier List?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Few supports look viable to me but many comparisons in the past used A supports >_>. It's your call.

[Colonel M]

That'll do. The new comparison anyway.

I think with supports and perhaps early promotion considered, I could see Lilina > Ray, but I'm not going to jump the gun on this yet.

[grandjackal]

Well it really depends. With OJ so close to upper mid, I could say OJ is a viable support for the crit and offense boosts, but only durability she gets out of it is 1 defense. It just makes her hit harder.

A REALLY good option for her is Barth, as OJ and Barth work miracles for her. +3 ATK, 4 Def, 25 hit, 9 avoid, 20 crit. She doesn't get a full avoid boost, but 4 defense is meaty. Only more avoid she could have gotten was 6 more anyways, so no huge loss.

These two B B with OJ, he'd get +3 ATK, 2 def, 6 avoid, 20 hit, 15 crit. Considering he doesn't need much boosts for when he starts getting good, this is pretty tolerable for him.

Barth A Lillina and B OJ could get +2 Atk, 4 Def (hohohoho!), 15 avoid, 15 crit, 25 hit.

She could have all this going by the time Ray shows up, given the speed of them all and the huge amount of time prior. Ray though I'm finding might have a viable team in Lou and Chad, as 20 AS for Chad only stops doubling heroes basically. He's got Con issues I guess though, but a body ring could help. With wyrmkiller and a B at least with Lou, he'd be packing 43 mt against wyverns. To give you an idea of how strong that is, it's ORKOing wyvern riders forever and reducing wyvern lords of chapter 21 down to 10 HP. Basically proper weapons, Chad could actually be a viable combat unit lategame ;;>> Ray can only help buy giving Chad that A. +3 Def, 9 crit, 15 avoid. B Lou, A Ray, he reduces wyvern lords in chapter 21 down to 37 hit. Yes, this is with WTD and no terrain in mind. Regular wyverns with steel or javies only have 23 displayed on him. With a Body Ring he can keep all his speed when equipped with a killing edge. Considering 20+30 crit, he'd have at least some form of offense on everything that doesn't require a slayer weapon. Example. He'd have 20+6+30 crit with a killing edge, 22 mt. Doesn't sound like much indeed, but I don't think any of us were thinking thieves were mighty this late in the game. Your average hodinkery paladin would have 56 HP, 13 Def and 12 Luck. Indeed, he'd only be doing 8 damage, but he would have 44 displayed crit. That's basically like a swordmaster without supports and a normal weapon. He could easily do 32 damage, or just flat out kill. This is the second toughest enemy on the map outside the wyverns and the luckiest. Anything else is in far more danger, especially mages. Thing is, he only needs the body ring if he wants to attack wyvern lords with the killer edge for some reason. Otherwise he's in no danger of being doubled, and can double everything else even without the body ring.

Ray helps this be the case, along with giving Lou finally the final piece of avoid he needs. Then consider that Chad probably had these killer stats at 20, with which his leveling speed and time could have been EONS ago, so he's this killer for this long. Chad could actually very easily be combat viable for most if not all the game. This means Lou support actually might very well be viable, as he might be worthy of seeing combat for a long goddamn while. This means that Ray has another viable support, and can possibly form a triangle that is rediculously effective for all 3 of them. They all get full avoid, Chad and Ray get 4 Defense (Nosferape), it helps Ray get all the hit he can get, and Lou is just all the more godly.

As for early promotion, they both can do it. Thing is, neither are seeing a ring till the desert.

Really it depends on how you measure their teams.

But right then. Rearranging lower mid. Douglas and Barth now rise.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Kuja

[Quasar]

15 turns might not even be a chapter. It's possible they could have a B by the meaty portions of Sacae and Ilia.

I have no idea what you mean by meaty portions so I can't say how much off your B estimate is but even characters with same move can't get one level of support worth 15 turns in a single chapter. With 8 and 5 it's just unheard of.

[grandjackal]

15 turns might not even be a chapter. It's possible they could have a B by the meaty portions of Sacae and Ilia.

I have no idea what you mean by meaty portions so I can't say how much off your B estimate is but even characters with same move can't get one level of support worth 15 turns in a single chapter. With 8 and 5 it's just unheard of.

Basically when the pegasi and nomads show up.

But as for move difference. There is indeed one. Ask yourself however, should Cecilia really be straying that far from the back lines?

[Quasar]

So basically you're suggesting they have B by 18B? 45 turns next to each other during 16x and 17B?

Straying that far? Not necessarily. If you're bringing Cecilia to 16x she will have her hands full healing. And the enemies (sniper magic) probably won't be attacking Douglas.

[grandjackal]

So basically you're suggesting they have B by 18B? 45 turns next to each other during 16x and 17B?

Straying that far? Not necessarily. If you're bringing Cecilia to 16x she will have her hands full healing. And the enemies (sniper magic) probably won't be attacking Douglas.

Whoop, *facepalm* bit of a brain glitch. Was thinking an extra chapter was in there, my bad.

That much is true, I guess. But Cecilia's still not facing the front lines.

[Dat Nick]

Reikken DID say slow supports are a lot more viable in this game due to chapters often taking longer, and that was never countered.

I say stay with the support speed we're currently using until it can accurately debunked.

[grandjackal]

So I was thinking that Chad actually could be combat viable for most of the game, and you can read my post a few posts back about how he can pull it off even later in the game. 20 AS is all you need to double generally anything but heroes, and only people I could ever see doubling all those fools are the swordmasters and Lance.

So I must ask, if Chad is combat viable, this will mean he is a viable supporter for Lou throughout, which means Ray will have another viable support, which boosts Ray's usefulness.

Could you see Chad higher, along with Lou and Ray?

Edited September 24, 2009 by France

[dondon151]

So I was thinking that Chad actually could be combat viable for most of the game, and you can read my post a few posts back about how he can pull it off even later in the game. 20 AS is all you need to double generally anything but heroes, and only people I could ever see doubling all those fools are the swordmasters and Lance.

Just doubling doesn't mean that you're combat viable. There's the issue of actually doing damage (Chad averages 12.5 str at 20/0 and of his two best supports, one gives no atk while the other gives half). 13.5 str + sword MT puts him on Juno level offense (11 str + lance MT), except he'll have fewer trouble doubling things (consider, however, that Silver Sword is -3 AS and Killing Edge is -2 AS). I'll point out that by like chapter 20 or so mercs start to exceed 16 AS and thus can't be doubled by Chad either.

As if having Juno level offense wasn't bad enough, Chad's defensive parameters at 20/0 with A Lugh/B Ray are 32.15 HP/9.75 def. Which really isn't too far off from Juno's 33 HP/8 def. His avo wins by miles, but I really can't see Chad as being good enough of an endgame unit to justify permanent supports with Lugh and Ray.

[grandjackal]

So I was thinking that Chad actually could be combat viable for most of the game, and you can read my post a few posts back about how he can pull it off even later in the game. 20 AS is all you need to double generally anything but heroes, and only people I could ever see doubling all those fools are the swordmasters and Lance.

Just doubling doesn't mean that you're combat viable. There's the issue of actually doing damage (Chad averages 12.5 str at 20/0 and of his two best supports, one gives no atk while the other gives half). 13.5 str + sword MT puts him on Juno level offense (11 str + lance MT), except he'll have fewer trouble doubling things (consider, however, that Silver Sword is -3 AS and Killing Edge is -2 AS). I'll point out that by like chapter 20 or so mercs start to exceed 16 AS and thus can't be doubled by Chad either.

As if having Juno level offense wasn't bad enough, Chad's defensive parameters at 20/0 with A Lugh/B Ray are 32.15 HP/9.75 def. Which really isn't too far off from Juno's 33 HP/8 def. His avo wins by miles, but I really can't see Chad as being good enough of an endgame unit to justify permanent supports with Lugh and Ray.

Doubling boosts the potency of killer edges and slayer weapons. He's not the strongest of units, but he can have offense. He has lancereaver that weighs him down by 4 to avoid doubling things like pallies and wyvern lords, but in exchange he reduces their hit to 0, not doubling making it last longer to keep him safe in various situations. Then keep in mind he can reduce the most accurate enemy on him (wyvern lords with silver) down to the 30s displayed. If you have any real problems, it's fixable with a dracoshield or an energy ring or a robe.

Juno wishes she were Chad level offense.

[Mekkah]

The first problem is that his damage sucks dick with Lancereaver. Why would I want him to fight?

Second one is you only get one Lancereaver with 15 uses.

Killer/Slayer weapons on Chad? Well, enjoy getting him to C swords first. And then enjoy trying to use Armorslayer on Knights. Killing Edge is more available, though note that he might fail to kill things _even with a double crit_.

Hype attempt denied.

[Dat Nick]

Well, I do want to say that getting him to C Swords shouldn't be a problem if we're actually levelling him.

[grandjackal]

The first problem is that his damage sucks dick with Lancereaver. Why would I want him to fight?

Second one is you only get one Lancereaver with 15 uses.

Killer/Slayer weapons on Chad? Well, enjoy getting him to C swords first. And then enjoy trying to use Armorslayer on Knights. Killing Edge is more available, though note that he might fail to kill things _even with a double crit_.

Hype attempt denied.

There is only 1 Lancereaver, only 15 uses? I'd rather use it for defensive purposes than offensive. Offensive, at best that's 8 kills, which is nothing really. On the other hand, it can save Chad's life 15 times+more depending on javie users.

Since when was getting someone who has nearly all game to build his only weapon type up two ranks?

Those double crits you mentioned fail to kill wyverns, of which he has wyrmslayers to do that with.

Srsly, let's not sandbag Chad here either with unfounded rumors.

[Fei Mao]

I don't know but the problem with your statement is that enemies like to target fragile units most likely chad is a likely person to be targeted first or next on enemy priorities, if chad is getting ranged by javelin that's no problem right there, but most likely the enemy is going to melee him wasting his lance reavers.

While I do agree he can use wyrmslayer to kill wyverns it's better so save that off for the mamkutes in the last chapters (wyrmslayer has 15 uses too),

[dondon151]

Those double crits you mentioned fail to kill wyverns, of which he has wyrmslayers to do that with.

A chapter 20I paladin has 56 HP/13 def. Chad has 21.5 atk with A Lugh and Killing Edge (WTD factored). Even if we round his str up, 22 atk does 9 damage per hit, which does not 6HKO the paladin (leaves him with 2 HP). Let's not even mention armors, who have 46 HP/19 def to Chad's 21.5 atk. If we give him an Armorslayer, he now has 34.5 atk, which might not even 3HKO if his str is only slightly screwed (as in, 34.5 rounded down leaves the armor with 1 HP).

If you want Chad to even maintain a semblance of offense, you have to justify giving him every effective weapon or Silver/Killer there is. And when you're almost not 3HKOing with an effective weapon, that's not good. At least it's easier landing 2HKOs on WKs because the Wyrmslayer is damn powerful, but other units don't need Wyrmslayer to deal damage, and the player would rather save them for WLs and mamkutes.

BTW, something else to consider about Chad's defense: the Sage in 20I has 26 mag, which means he OHKOs Chad with either Elfire or Bolting. Also, WLs are starting to max str, which means if they're carrying Silver, 41 atk OHKOs Chad if he's slightly def or HP screwed. Mamkutes have ~40 atk, so those are dangerous as well.

I suppose you can say that because Chad doesn't promote, then he deserves a stat booster. But one stat booster doesn't solve all of his problems. An Angelic Robe certainly prevents him from being OHKO'd, which is nice, but his offense will still suck. An Energy Ring improves his offense, but it still can't be considered good to any extent, and his defensive problems are still present.

All this talk about Chad has led me to think that Roy should move down. Because he is basically Chad until chapter 22 without thief utility and worse AS.

Edited September 24, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

It allows you to expose Chad to Javelins. Great. What use could this possibly have? You don't _want_ to expose the guy, and in addition, there are other swordlocked units that can use the Lancereaver for this purpose. Roy, Rutger, Fir, and Ashtol, if we're going to play that way. And Oujay as long as he's unpromoted.

[Colonel M]

Mekkah hammered this down right. Chad should simply avoid combat as much as he can. IMO if a person wants to support him I wouldn't put much claim against it. Maining him in combat is simply suicidal.

[Mekkah]

All this talk about Chad has led me to think that Roy should move down. Because he is basically Chad until chapter 22 without thief utility and worse AS.

Well, and the advantages of being Roy: Rapier, B with cavs (and a lot of bad units), free unit slot, and more concrete durability in general. I'll be the first one to admit his midgame is subpar and his B with the Cavs perhaps overkill by midgame though.

-Upper Mid Tier-

Gonzales

Roy

Shin

Thany

Lot

Lou

Saul

I can see him below Shin, in theory. Shin destroys him stat-wise, and bow lock vs sword lock is debatable at best (prolly in Shin's favor considering Roy's enemy phase isn't good). Dunno about below Thany. Can definitely see him below Saul, but that perhaps just means Saul should move up.

[dondon151]

20/0 Chad has 32.15 HP/8.75 def with B Lugh and C Ray while 20/0 Roy has 33.2 HP/10.75 with B cavs. The def gap closes to 1 when Chad gets B Ray, so their concrete durabilities are almost the same with supports in effect.

I agree on Roy below Shin, and I also think Saul should move up.

Edited September 25, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Well, Saul basically has no reason not to promote the second light magic shows up. He could promote level 10 and still be pretty decent, thanks to Elite form EXP gain and staffs still. I could easily see Saul moving up. Just how high is my question to you.

As for Roy, I would not put him below Lou, but I'd contend even Lot is debateable. Lot is just far more durable and is generally as strong as Roy is, just with axes. At promotion, gets bows and is then far more versatile than Roy. He's also been severely outperforming for most of lategame.

That, and I believe Roy suffers far worse than Lot if his supports are not in play, as incredibly likely as they are.

That's just me though. Perhaps the performance on the isles could outweigh it.

[Reikken]

Well, Saul basically has no reason not to promote the second light magic shows up.

He does. and that would be the 2-3 others wanting to do the same thing.

Also, light magic doesn't appear until ch 11, by which point he should be 15-20 rather than 10.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Well, Saul basically has no reason not to promote the second light magic shows up.

He does. and that would be the 2-3 others wanting to do the same thing.

Also, light magic doesn't appear until ch 11, by which point he should be 15-20 rather than 10.

He gets greater offense than Clarine does out of it (she's still dodging everything and healing on a horse, she can wait), Lou's probably not having the proper level, and Ellen...Well, Saul gets far better offense thanks t doubling.

I see even less reason to not give it to him.

[Reikken]

I'm not saying that he doesn't get the most out of it (though I don't necessarily agree with that); that's not the issue. The issue is that others do indeed get quite a lot out of it (even Clarine's garbage offense at least gives her weapon levels so she can use aircalibur later), and you lose that if you promote him. So whatever gain you get out of him being able to promote early is quite small.

[grandjackal]

I'm not saying that he doesn't get the most out of it (though I don't necessarily agree with that); that's not the issue. The issue is that others do indeed get quite a lot out of it (even Clarine's garbage offense at least gives her weapon levels so she can use aircalibur later), and you lose that if you promote him. So whatever gain you get out of him being able to promote early is quite small.

Fine, so her and he have a fair claim both for the first. I'd still say Saul should get the first, due to being the only good light mage by light years. We get divine, purge and Aureola, we might as well use them. It's not like we're dependent on Clarine for good Aircalibur use.