Efficiency Tier List?

[Florete]

What about her low starting level and all the axe wielding enemies? Seriously, she gets like 50 exp a kill.

What about her offense and defense? To get a kill, you need to actually kill something. Pirates in the northern fort on her joining chapter have iron axes and 11 AS. She can't double them.

Level 4? Nice sandbag. Even if 8 is inflated (which it's not), level 6 would be minimum. And when Klein joins on Bartre route, his stats are also slightly lower, so it really isn't helping his case much.

His stats aren't lower, but rather his starting decimals are lower, so nice try there.

Dude, it still hurts his averages, and very likely hurts his bases. Like, 15.7 Str is much more likely 16 than 15.4. 32.85 HP is much more likely 33 than 32.2. Since he has the same base level, all he gets is one more map, which means he gets like an extra 40 experience or something. Nothing to write home about.

And I can agree that Klein is better for like, 2 or 3 maps, but then Fir starts winning. Especially if she can nab a Hero Crest early, like 15 or 16, because then she gets promotion bonuses at little cost to other stats and starts smacking Klein even faster.

And that Steel Axe Berserker? He has 27 atk on her, so even base level Fir would survive a hit. I don't know what you're smoking.

Nabbing a hero's crest? Better for like 2 or 3 maps? What are you smoking? Deick, Lot and Rutger suddenly don't matter? What about Gonzales in Bartre route? Immediate boosts for him would be awesome. There's more to consider than giving it to someone who's infinitely stuck to 1 range.

Besides, she'd rather not face the berserker anyways.

That's why I said "if" god dammit. I know there are other contenders, but what makes them better candidates than her anyway? It's not like they're guaranteed the first few Hero Crests.

And that Berserker will have like 17% true hit on her or something. And get this: he 2 hits Klein as well, only at higher hit rates. So the only advantage Klein has is "loluncountered" but Fir can draw him in and do damage, so it cancels out.

By the time Lance enemies start getting more common, Fir will have built up some support, so it won't be that much of a threat. And since a lot of enemies tend to have 1-2 range, it means Klein isn't always going uncountered anyway. Yeah, it can hurt Fir as well, but again, player phase only simply brings her down to Klein's level, so anything she is able to do on the enemy phase as a result is extra. And also remember that against any enemy Archers it's Fir who doesn't eat a counter.

The problem is she needs to have built up supports. Did you know Klein doesn't need supports to be good? They'd help others for sure, but he couldn't care himself.

Klein needs to support if he wants to be more durable, which is part of the whole "he can take a hit" thing. And even if she loses supports, she's still got that massive crit. With a Killing Edge, 16+/1 Fir has 71 crit supportless and is more durable to boot. She might have a bit less Def (like 1) but more HP and avoid.

Also, Fir does have access to 1-2 range in the form of Light Brand. "But anyone can use it." Well, I don't see Klein with 1-2 range, like, ever, so point goes to Fir. And for Wyverns, there's Wyrmslayer, Lancereaver, and Durandal, and while all three are limited, you'd be sandbagging to say she can't even get 1 of them. And don't let me forget the Brave Sword for killing before the enemy hits as well.

I just got a great idea. Since it's obvious neither one of us will budge, let's take it to the debate subforum and let the judges decide. No use cluttering this topic with 20 pages of back and forth Fir vs. Klein.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Dude, it still hurts his averages, and very likely hurts his bases. Like, 15.7 Str is much more likely 16 than 15.4. 32.85 HP is much more likely 33 than 32.2. Since he has the same base level, all he gets is one more map, which means he gets like an extra 40 experience or something. Nothing to write home about.

Oh noes, a level behind, I must commit sepukku over this travesty.

That's why I said "if" god dammit. I know there are other contenders, but what makes them better candidates than her anyway? It's not like they're guaranteed the first few Hero Crests.

And that Berserker will have like 17% true hit on her or something. And get this: he 2 hits Klein as well, only at higher hit rates. So the only advantage Klein has is "loluncountered" but Fir can draw him in and do damage, so it cancels out.

They certainly are, considering it comes 3 chapters prior to her joining. They're likely to get to promotion level far sooner than she'll be anyways, so yes. They are garunteed it unless you're suggesting mass favoritism for the loli swordfighter.

Rather, he's pulling about 30s' in hit. Since you were whining about Lalum before on such hit rates, I assume it holds true here in that it's risky for your argument.

As a note, Klein's not there yet, he doesn't have to deal with the bastard. Another note is that Fir doesn't exactly start with the best luck.

Klein needs to support if he wants to be more durable, which is part of the whole "he can take a hit" thing. And even if she loses supports, she's still got that massive crit. With a Killing Edge, 16+/1 Fir has 71 crit supportless and is more durable to boot. She might have a bit less Def (like 1) but more HP and avoid.

He can as is, considering he starts rather tough compared to Fir. Another thing is unlike her, his supports just help toughen him up further, and he even has an excellent combo. Clarine and Elphin. Both are decently high up, they're all pretty good backliners. Thunder and Light. An A B with them equates to +1 Str, +5 Def, 15 Crit, 19 avoid, moar accuracy and crit evade up the ass. These guys are also comparably better to have around than Noah and Shin. Elphin is also a supporter with the benefit of not giving a shit who he supports. Overall, I say these are excellent boosts that come at fair speeds (Clarine is 40+3, Elphin is 10+2). Klein's also a pretty awesome supporter in return, giving him avoid and defense.

Also, Fir does have access to 1-2 range in the form of Light Brand. "But anyone can use it." Well, I don't see Klein with 1-2 range, like, ever, so point goes to Fir. And for Wyverns, there's Wyrmslayer, Lancereaver, and Durandal, and while all three are limited, you'd be sandbagging to say she can't even get 1 of them. And don't let me forget the Brave Sword for killing before the enemy hits as well.

There's only 1 of each of these things (Wyrmslayers being the exception, but they don't come along for a damn good while). Light Brand is 20 uses with 9 weight which weighs her down by 4. Lancereaver only has 15 uses, and far more powerful hands it could belong in. Wyrmslayer is fair game, but the main question is do we want squishy Fir going up against wyverns in the first place? The damn thing's still a sword, it's not having hybrid lancereaver use.

I just got a great idea. Since it's obvious neither one of us will budge, let's take it to the debate subforum and let the judges decide. No use cluttering this topic with 20 pages of back and forth Fir vs. Klein.

Where bias would take part and become more trying to sell out who's better? Hardly practical to a list.

[Florete]

Dude, it still hurts his averages, and very likely hurts his bases. Like, 15.7 Str is much more likely 16 than 15.4. 32.85 HP is much more likely 33 than 32.2. Since he has the same base level, all he gets is one more map, which means he gets like an extra 40 experience or something. Nothing to write home about.

Oh noes, a level behind, I must commit sepukku over this travesty.

A stat loss is a stat loss. It's something.

That's why I said "if" god dammit. I know there are other contenders, but what makes them better candidates than her anyway? It's not like they're guaranteed the first few Hero Crests.

And that Berserker will have like 17% true hit on her or something. And get this: he 2 hits Klein as well, only at higher hit rates. So the only advantage Klein has is "loluncountered" but Fir can draw him in and do damage, so it cancels out.

They certainly are, considering it comes 3 chapters prior to her joining. They're likely to get to promotion level far sooner than she'll be anyways, so yes. They are garunteed it unless you're suggesting mass favoritism for the loli swordfighter.

And what if we promote Fir early like I suggested? She'll end up hitting promotion time around the same time or possibly earlier as a result.

Rather, he's pulling about 30s' in hit. Since you were whining about Lalum before on such hit rates, I assume it holds true here in that it's risky for your argument.

God dammit, don't you read? I said true hit. Level 4 Fir has 37 avoid and the Berserker has 76 hit, so with WTA that's 29% displayed, 17% true. That's less than 1/5 of the time.

Klein needs to support if he wants to be more durable, which is part of the whole "he can take a hit" thing. And even if she loses supports, she's still got that massive crit. With a Killing Edge, 16+/1 Fir has 71 crit supportless and is more durable to boot. She might have a bit less Def (like 1) but more HP and avoid.

He can as is, considering he starts rather tough compared to Fir. Another thing is unlike her, his supports just help toughen him up further, and he even has an excellent combo. Clarine and Elphin. Both are decently high up, they're all pretty good backliners. Thunder and Light. An A B with them equates to +1 Str, +5 Def, 15 Crit, 19 avoid, moar accuracy and crit evade up the ass. These guys are also comparably better to have around than Noah and Shin. Elphin is also a supporter with the benefit of not giving a shit who he supports. Overall, I say these are excellent boosts that come at fair speeds (Clarine is 40+3, Elphin is 10+2). Klein's also a pretty awesome supporter in return, giving him avoid and defense.

I allowed him great supports already (Seriously, how is anyone better for him than Tate?), so now you're making things complicated just because...you want to? Well, I'll play along.

Clarine: Has Rutger and Dieck, who give arguably better bonuses, triangle, and are earlier. Why would she wait for Klein? Hell, these bonuses are part of what makes Rutger the best character in the freakin' game, though I suppose if Clarine goes with Klein that just opens up Rutger for Fir. It's slow, but he's in play and it'll happen.

Elphin: Lol at supporting a Dancer/Bard. I've said countless times why it's bad to assume supports with this class. They make your team go further and have no combat, so why in hell would a combatant be sitting next to him? And if we go Echidna route (You know, the better route), bye-bye Elphin.

As for Fir's supports, Shin is at the top of Upper Mid, so he's likely to be in play, and he has no one else. For Noah, I still am unsure what he's doing in Lower Mid at all, since I recall him in Upper Mid but then you moved him down because it helped your case. And he's only in Lower Mid because you don't have a Mid tier. If you did, his position would very likely be there.

Also, Fir does have access to 1-2 range in the form of Light Brand. "But anyone can use it." Well, I don't see Klein with 1-2 range, like, ever, so point goes to Fir. And for Wyverns, there's Wyrmslayer, Lancereaver, and Durandal, and while all three are limited, you'd be sandbagging to say she can't even get 1 of them. And don't let me forget the Brave Sword for killing before the enemy hits as well.

There's only 1 of each of these things (Wyrmslayers being the exception, but they don't come along for a damn good while). Light Brand is 20 uses with 9 weight which weighs her down by 4. Lancereaver only has 15 uses, and far more powerful hands it could belong in. Wyrmslayer is fair game, but the main question is do we want squishy Fir going up against wyverns in the first place? The damn thing's still a sword, it's not having hybrid lancereaver use.

Light Brand will only weigh her down 3 on promotion, not a big deal. "Far more powerful hands" is exactly the sandbagging I was expecting. "Other guys are better, so Fir gets nothing as a result." Amazing logic.

I just got a great idea. Since it's obvious neither one of us will budge, let's take it to the debate subforum and let the judges decide. No use cluttering this topic with 20 pages of back and forth Fir vs. Klein.

Where bias would take part and become more trying to sell out who's better? Hardly practical to a list.

No, where judges would actually be able to vote on who wins, because otherwise you and I both know this will never end. I don't get why you're always so unwilling to do a formal debate. In this case, it would end this charade once and for all.

[grandjackal]

A stat loss is a stat loss. It's something.

Something negligeable.

God dammit, don't you read? I said true hit. Level 4 Fir has 37 avoid and the Berserker has 76 hit, so with WTA that's 29% displayed, 17% true. That's less than 1/5 of the time.

...oh...;;>>

I allowed him great supports already (Seriously, how is anyone better for him than Tate?), so now you're making things complicated just because...you want to? Well, I'll play along.

I'm sandbagging now? You're the one giving me a god-awful supporter, last I checked Tate wasn't too high.

Clarine: Has Rutger and Dieck, who give arguably better bonuses, triangle, and are earlier. Why would she wait for Klein? Hell, these bonuses are part of what makes Rutger the best character in the freakin' game, though I suppose if Clarine goes with Klein that just opens up Rutger for Fir. It's slow, but he's in play and it'll happen.

Walk around in circles, walk around in circles, walk around-

I mentioned this delightful bit last we had this delightfully little discussion. It takes Deick forever to build that support, and then consider the whole move difference. Clarine can A with Rutger and Deick can B with Rutger (due to similar move) and then A with Lot (who's a cool guy, comes early enough, gives Deick great bonuses). It takes Deick 59 turns to get a C with her, of which it would take Klein a grand total of 4. In turn, Klein can fill in the B with Clarine at lightning speed.

Elphin: Lol at supporting a Dancer/Bard. I've said countless times why it's bad to assume supports with this class. They make your team go further and have no combat, so why in hell would a combatant be sitting next to him? And if we go Echidna route (You know, the better route), bye-bye Elphin.

Give a better reason than "Bawww, don't wanna go this route!". Then factor in that Echidna's reasoning for being so high is due to Lalum.

As for why a combat unit would be next to a dancer/bard, the obvious reason is they're both backliners.

As for Fir's supports, Shin is at the top of Upper Mid, so he's likely to be in play, and he has no one else. For Noah, I still am unsure what he's doing in Lower Mid at all, since I recall him in Upper Mid but then you moved him down because it helped your case. And he's only in Lower Mid because you don't have a Mid tier. If you did, his position would very likely be there.

Elphin and Clarine are far more likely to be played, and you have yet to give a reason as to why they should be that high. They basically grow into Zealot with luck.

Light Brand will only weigh her down 3 on promotion, not a big deal. "Far more powerful hands" is exactly the sandbagging I was expecting. "Other guys are better, so Fir gets nothing as a result." Amazing logic.

Yes, because giving it to someone who doesn't exist yet is far more reasonable. You get the damn thing in Ostia's chapter 8. By the time you get it, you could have any swordie help blast through the reinforcements that constipate the way to Leygence. Namely someone we'd like to train for later, like Ashtor.

No, where judges would actually be able to vote on who wins, because otherwise you and I both know this will never end. I don't get why you're always so unwilling to do a formal debate. In this case, it would end this charade once and for all.

Aren't you the dramatic one...

Edited August 9, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

A stat loss is a stat loss. It's something.

Something negligeable.

Something existant. Seriously, you're acting like it's nothing, but Fir will catch up before Klein gets his stats back up, so it ends up being neutral overall.

I allowed him great supports already (Seriously, how is anyone better for him than Tate?), so now you're making things complicated just because...you want to? Well, I'll play along.

I'm sandbagging now? You're the one giving me a god-awful supporter, last I checked Tate wasn't too high.

*facepalm*

Have you even looked at KleinxTate? For one thing, Tate isn't that bad (You had her in Upper Mid before the time warp) and they match affinities, and it's his second fastest support, and she has no one else. Are you not going with this because you just want to disagree with me? Seriously, not accepting this partnership makes no fucking sense on your part and it's just starting to piss me off. I don't know why you can't assume Tate is in play, especially since Klein being in play alone makes her much more likely to be in play herself.

Clarine: Has Rutger and Dieck, who give arguably better bonuses, triangle, and are earlier. Why would she wait for Klein? Hell, these bonuses are part of what makes Rutger the best character in the freakin' game, though I suppose if Clarine goes with Klein that just opens up Rutger for Fir. It's slow, but he's in play and it'll happen.

Walk around in circles, walk around in circles, walk around-

I mentioned this delightful bit last we had this delightfully little discussion. It takes Deick forever to build that support, and then consider the whole move difference. Clarine can A with Rutger and Deick can B with Rutger (due to similar move) and then A with Lot (who's a cool guy, comes early enough, gives Deick great bonuses). It takes Deick 59 turns to get a C with her, of which it would take Klein a grand total of 4. In turn, Klein can fill in the B with Clarine at lightning speed.

In other words, let's work our team to be as bad for Fir as possible. BS. DieckxClarine might be slow, but it also starts like 6 or 7 chapters earlier. Depending on how long those take, it could be at C or even B when Klein shows up. And you missed the best part: support triangle. Normally I wouldn't penalize a character for having a chain of supports like you're suggesting, but when the three core ones can triangle with each other, that's a much better option.

And apparently there's a move difference between Dieck and Clarine but not between Klein and Clarine, or even Rutger and Clarine.

So I'll ask you to stop the Fir sandbagging. If Klein really does get Clarine, Fir needs to get Rutger, since it would probably be best at that point for Dieck to not be in play.

Elphin: Lol at supporting a Dancer/Bard. I've said countless times why it's bad to assume supports with this class. They make your team go further and have no combat, so why in hell would a combatant be sitting next to him? And if we go Echidna route (You know, the better route), bye-bye Elphin.

Give a better reason than "Bawww, don't wanna go this route!". Then factor in that Echidna's reasoning for being so high is due to Lalum.

As for why a combat unit would be next to a dancer/bard, the obvious reason is they're both backliners.

Wtf is this? Echidna is good because of Lalum? Are you serious? What am I still doing here?

And you still don't get why supporting a Dancer/Bard is a problem. It severely limits Klein, because it means he's very unlikely to have any enemy phase action since Elphin should never be that close, and might even miss out on player phase depending on who Elphins plays for.

God dammit, I was asking to stop the sandbagging of Fir, but I think you need to stop sandbagging Klein somewhat first.

As for Fir's supports, Shin is at the top of Upper Mid, so he's likely to be in play, and he has no one else. For Noah, I still am unsure what he's doing in Lower Mid at all, since I recall him in Upper Mid but then you moved him down because it helped your case. And he's only in Lower Mid because you don't have a Mid tier. If you did, his position would very likely be there.

Elphin and Clarine are far more likely to be played, and you have yet to give a reason as to why they should be that high. They basically grow into Zealot with luck.

You never gave a reason as to why he should be that low. You just did it because it helped your case. And don't deny that, since it was just like "Oh, well, since Fir wants him, Noah actually isn't that good, I'll lower him to Low Mid without actually telling anyone why." Before I explain why he should be higher, you need to explain yourself for lowering him in the first place.

Light Brand will only weigh her down 3 on promotion, not a big deal. "Far more powerful hands" is exactly the sandbagging I was expecting. "Other guys are better, so Fir gets nothing as a result." Amazing logic.

Yes, because giving it to someone who doesn't exist yet is far more reasonable. You get the damn thing in Ostia's chapter 8. By the time you get it, you could have any swordie help blast through the reinforcements that constipate the way to Leygence. Namely someone we'd like to train for later, like Ashtor.

Actually, I didn't realize it came so early. Never mind, then.

No, where judges would actually be able to vote on who wins, because otherwise you and I both know this will never end. I don't get why you're always so unwilling to do a formal debate. In this case, it would end this charade once and for all.

Aren't you the dramatic one...

Okay, so this is what I'm getting: You don't want to do a formal debate because you're afraid you'll lose and you'd prefer to claw at each other's throats and bang heads for 20 pages instead. How can I come to any other conclusion? A formal debate would end it in 6 posts, so the only reason you wouldn't want to do that is because you want it to last longer than that and/or you fear having to admit to Fir > Klein. Barring the fact that you might actually win. I don't want to do a formal debate because I want to prove you wrong, I want to do it so we can settle this, because I really do have other ways to spend my time than arguing about video game characters on the internet. And if you win, guess what? I'll shut up. Doesn't that sound like a good idea? I know you want this to end, so why the hell do you prolong it? Just get it over with, or at least stop wasting my time.

[Dat Nick]

"Oh, well, since Fir wants him, Noah actually isn't that good, I'll lower him to Low Mid without actually telling anyone why." Before I explain why he should be higher, you need to explain yourself for lowering him in the first place.

Zealot was prove to >Noah. Zealot was debunked to be argued out of lower mid [Jackal can tell you about THAT one], so Noah being there makes perfect sense.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Florete]

"Oh, well, since Fir wants him, Noah actually isn't that good, I'll lower him to Low Mid without actually telling anyone why." Before I explain why he should be higher, you need to explain yourself for lowering him in the first place.

Zealot was prove to >Noah. Zealot was debunked to be argued out of lower mid [Jackal can tell you about THAT one], so Noah being there makes perfect sense.

I must have missed that. Link? If it makes sense, I can agree that FirxNoah isn't definite.

[Dat Nick]

page 6

There was likely more regarding the subject, in fact I vaguely remember clearer arguments made, but it appears the time warp ate it.

[grandjackal]

Something existant. Seriously, you're acting like it's nothing, but Fir will catch up before Klein gets his stats back up, so it ends up being neutral overall.

Then why the hell are we arguing it if it's a null point? Why bring it up? All it means is just one more chapter of absolutely spanking Fir.

*facepalm*

Have you even looked at KleinxTate? For one thing, Tate isn't that bad (You had her in Upper Mid before the time warp) and they match affinities, and it's his second fastest support, and she has no one else. Are you not going with this because you just want to disagree with me? Seriously, not accepting this partnership makes no fucking sense on your part and it's just starting to piss me off. I don't know why you can't assume Tate is in play, especially since Klein being in play alone makes her much more likely to be in play herself.

I did? ....Could you refresh my memory as to why? I might have, I just don't recall why.

Also, calm down. You get so angry about it, yet do you see me acting out of hand? Relax, take a breath.

In other words, let's work our team to be as bad for Fir as possible. BS. DieckxClarine might be slow, but it also starts like 6 or 7 chapters earlier. Depending on how long those take, it could be at C or even B when Klein shows up. And you missed the best part: support triangle. Normally I wouldn't penalize a character for having a chain of supports like you're suggesting, but when the three core ones can triangle with each other, that's a much better option.

You missed the worst part, it's slow as balls. Seriously, Klein will get to B with Clarine fare faster than Deick will, and remember what I said about Klein not giving a damn about who he supports? Ya know, because he doesn't take counters?

And apparently there's a move difference between Dieck and Clarine but not between Klein and Clarine, or even Rutger and Clarine.

So I'll ask you to stop the Fir sandbagging. If Klein really does get Clarine, Fir needs to get Rutger, since it would probably be best at that point for Dieck to not be in play.

Deick has 5 move. Klein has 6. Clarine has 7. Move difference is 1 compared to Deick's 2.

DO explain why Deick is suddenly tossed aside here of all times, where swords and durability AND supports would make him one of the best on the isles? I'm sandbagging Fir, you're the one suggesting we dump fucking Deick of all characters to help your own argument.

Wtf is this? Echidna is good because of Lalum? Are you serious? What am I still doing here?

And you still don't get why supporting a Dancer/Bard is a problem. It severely limits Klein, because it means he's very unlikely to have any enemy phase action since Elphin should never be that close, and might even miss out on player phase depending on who Elphins plays for.

God dammit, I was asking to stop the sandbagging of Fir, but I think you need to stop sandbagging Klein somewhat first.

Aren't I the most adorable debater evar?

Anywhozzle, Echidna is pretty good on her own, but do see how far she gets without supports. Speed easily fluxuates with her weapon thanks to con and weapon type, luck sucks, not exactly the juggernaut without her defensive supports...

That could be said for anyone Elphin doesn't dance for. If he does dance for Klein, chances are it's to shoot at people nearby.

You never gave a reason as to why he should be that low. You just did it because it helped your case. And don't deny that, since it was just like "Oh, well, since Fir wants him, Noah actually isn't that good, I'll lower him to Low Mid without actually telling anyone why." Before I explain why he should be higher, you need to explain yourself for lowering him in the first place.

Basically what Norton said. They're Zealot without the shiny start or the fancy weapon rank, or the pre-promotion deal, though they will have luck on their side eventually.

Okay, so this is what I'm getting: You don't want to do a formal debate because you're afraid you'll lose and you'd prefer to claw at each other's throats and bang heads for 20 pages instead. How can I come to any other conclusion? A formal debate would end it in 6 posts, so the only reason you wouldn't want to do that is because you want it to last longer than that and/or you fear having to admit to Fir > Klein. Barring the fact that you might actually win. I don't want to do a formal debate because I want to prove you wrong, I want to do it so we can settle this, because I really do have other ways to spend my time than arguing about video game characters on the internet. And if you win, guess what? I'll shut up. Doesn't that sound like a good idea? I know you want this to end, so why the hell do you prolong it? Just get it over with, or at least stop wasting my time.

Here's the deal. I believe Klein is better than Fir. However, I suck at getting a point across. I would lose a formal debate due to not being clear with my words, not because the assumption is actually wrong.

Another thing is, no one is forcing you to continue. Hell, so far I haven't seen anyone agree or disagree, it's just us arguing in a void where no one will pipe in. Maybe they don't care, perhaps they think we'll settle this sooner or later. They don't get involved if they don't have to, and that's because no one's forcing them to, just like no one's forcing you. If you got better things to do, I'm not stopping you from doing them. You're the one blowing up about this, not me. I will admit it has me frustrated as well, because it seems like it's just you and me arguing and creating our own personal hell in something that is ultimately frivolous in the universe.

And as much as I enjoy pestering, this isn't the reason I'm prolonging this argument. I'm just incredibly goddamn stubborn at times

..Who the fuck saw that paragraph coming? Man, something about us brings out the worst in eachother, doesn't it?

Edited August 9, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Taking the argument to the debate subforum means that I can't post in it ;_;

I'm inclined to agree with Fir > Klein at a cursory glance because Fir's earlygame is salvaged by WTA while Klein's lategame starts to fall apart no matter how you look at it because his AS has trouble keeping up against faster enemies, and Fir's enemy phase offense skyrockets after promotion but Klein's is, well... archer syndrome.

[Dat Nick]

Fir's latergame gets it just as bad due to lances, so please do explain that one little patch: Or at the very least address it.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What chapters specifically though? Because I recall a few of them having so much terrain to work with that I wouldn't be surprised to Lances having 20-30 hit on her.

[grandjackal]

Chapter 22 and 23 don't have much to work with. With chapter 21, the terrain is there but the problem is it's so out of the way to the throne.

This is ignoring the fact she's balls on the wall useless in Sacae.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Chapter 22 and 23 don't have much to work with. With chapter 21, the terrain is there but the problem is it's so out of the way to the throne.

I count only 4 Lance users in C22 and several of the enemies there have high SPD so it's a good chapter for her. 23's setup makes it rather difficult for one of your units to be attacked by 3 Wyverns or more unless you're a retard that loves randomly choosing a character to solo the chapter with. 21 has plenty terrain if you take the path that leads to more Wyvern reinforcements as opposed to Paladins and this one's also got a few mountains so you can leave a direct combat unit behind around there to fight them.

This is ignoring the fact she's balls on the wall useless in Sacae.

I'm sorry but I must laugh at this. Many... MANY of the units in the game don't do much offensively in Sacae and even those that can use weapons such as Hand Axes and Javelins struggle to hit those bastards. Fir having freakish SPD (enough to double several of them), high critical hit rate and Nomads having low DEF makes her a beast on the player phase against these guys which many of your units wish they could do.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Sirius

[Florete]

Something existant. Seriously, you're acting like it's nothing, but Fir will catch up before Klein gets his stats back up, so it ends up being neutral overall.

Then why the hell are we arguing it if it's a null point? Why bring it up? All it means is just one more chapter of absolutely spanking Fir.

No, it means Fir catches up faster. By "neutral," I meant that Elphin route Klein doesn't have any extra advantages over Fir that Lalum route didn't. One more chapter, yet slightly lower stats.

*facepalm*

Have you even looked at KleinxTate? For one thing, Tate isn't that bad (You had her in Upper Mid before the time warp) and they match affinities, and it's his second fastest support, and she has no one else. Are you not going with this because you just want to disagree with me? Seriously, not accepting this partnership makes no fucking sense on your part and it's just starting to piss me off. I don't know why you can't assume Tate is in play, especially since Klein being in play alone makes her much more likely to be in play herself.

I did? ....Could you refresh my memory as to why? I might have, I just don't recall why.

Well, she's the first decent flier you get, with good bases and fairly good growths. Then there's this Klein support, see...

You know, maybe the reason you can't see it is because you're stuck on Tate not deserving him. If we were arguing Tate's position, there'd be minor competition (despite the fact she's still his best partner...), but since we're arguing Klein's position, there's no need to worry, because Tate doesn't want anyone else unless her little sister is in play, and even that would only need a B.

Also, calm down. You get so angry about it, yet do you see me acting out of hand? Relax, take a breath.

You're right. I apologize.

In other words, let's work our team to be as bad for Fir as possible. BS. DieckxClarine might be slow, but it also starts like 6 or 7 chapters earlier. Depending on how long those take, it could be at C or even B when Klein shows up. And you missed the best part: support triangle. Normally I wouldn't penalize a character for having a chain of supports like you're suggesting, but when the three core ones can triangle with each other, that's a much better option.

You missed the worst part, it's slow as balls. Seriously, Klein will get to B with Clarine fare faster than Deick will, and remember what I said about Klein not giving a damn about who he supports? Ya know, because he doesn't take counters?

I know it's slow, I said that, I didn't miss it. It also starts a lot earlier, so they could be working to a B already when Klein shows up. And then, support triangle, yay. It's better to have ClarinexDieckxRutger than SomeonexKleinxClarinexRutgerxDieckxLot, because then you'd have problems keeping them all near each other. 3 people have a much easier time staying together than 6.

And apparently there's a move difference between Dieck and Clarine but not between Klein and Clarine, or even Rutger and Clarine.

So I'll ask you to stop the Fir sandbagging. If Klein really does get Clarine, Fir needs to get Rutger, since it would probably be best at that point for Dieck to not be in play.

Deick has 5 move. Klein has 6. Clarine has 7. Move difference is 1 compared to Deick's 2.

Rutger also has 5 move, so why is RutgerxClarine viable but not DieckxClarine?

DO explain why Deick is suddenly tossed aside here of all times, where swords and durability AND supports would make him one of the best on the isles? I'm sandbagging Fir, you're the one suggesting we dump fucking Deick of all characters to help your own argument.

Because of the weird way supports are going. My problem is that we're not actually going to just deploy either of these characters without supporting them because both have 3+ good options to choose from. Saying Dieck isn't in play was actually the wrong way to go about it, but my point still stands. If Klein is getting Clarine, she's now missing Dieck or Rutger. It's probably best at that point if we have a KleinxClarinexDieck triangle, in which case Rutger needs a support, and there's Fir. Or if Clarine goes with Rutger, Lot would have to be in play for Dieck to support, and we have a bit of a support mess here. This is why I wanted to go with Tate and Percival because they work for him and it won't spawn two pages of arguments. Dieck, Clarine, and Elphin are just too much of a pain to argue through. Hell, Clarine could even make a good partner for Lance if Alan isn't in play, and Dieck can triangle with Wade/Lot/Thany if two of them are in play. Do you really want to go through all that?

Wtf is this? Echidna is good because of Lalum? Are you serious? What am I still doing here?

And you still don't get why supporting a Dancer/Bard is a problem. It severely limits Klein, because it means he's very unlikely to have any enemy phase action since Elphin should never be that close, and might even miss out on player phase depending on who Elphins plays for.

God dammit, I was asking to stop the sandbagging of Fir, but I think you need to stop sandbagging Klein somewhat first.

Aren't I the most adorable debater evar?

Anywhozzle, Echidna is pretty good on her own, but do see how far she gets without supports. Speed easily fluxuates with her weapon thanks to con and weapon type, luck sucks, not exactly the juggernaut without her defensive supports...

She has Gonzales, Lot, and Geese, who are slower but are generally more practical for her as well.

That could be said for anyone Elphin doesn't dance for. If he does dance for Klein, chances are it's to shoot at people nearby.

How do you figure that? If I have him play for Klein, I'm probably sending Klein forward.

You never gave a reason as to why he should be that low. You just did it because it helped your case. And don't deny that, since it was just like "Oh, well, since Fir wants him, Noah actually isn't that good, I'll lower him to Low Mid without actually telling anyone why." Before I explain why he should be higher, you need to explain yourself for lowering him in the first place.

Basically what Norton said. They're Zealot without the shiny start or the fancy weapon rank, or the pre-promotion deal, though they will have luck on their side eventually.

I can accept it isn't guaranteed, but remember that Fir being in play (Noah's best partner) makes Noah more likely to be in play, because the support itself is good for both. We probably wouldn't use Noah is his partners weren't in play, but he's also not bad enough that we assume he's never in play, especially when his best partner is already in play.

Here's the deal. I believe Klein is better than Fir. However, I suck at getting a point across. I would lose a formal debate due to not being clear with my words, not because the assumption is actually wrong.

Then nothing's going to be solved. And besides, if you would lose there, what makes this topic any different? As you've already said, it's not like anyone else is jumping in.

Another thing is, no one is forcing you to continue. Hell, so far I haven't seen anyone agree or disagree, it's just us arguing in a void where no one will pipe in. Maybe they don't care, perhaps they think we'll settle this sooner or later. They don't get involved if they don't have to, and that's because no one's forcing them to, just like no one's forcing you. If you got better things to do, I'm not stopping you from doing them. You're the one blowing up about this, not me. I will admit it has me frustrated as well, because it seems like it's just you and me arguing and creating our own personal hell in something that is ultimately frivolous in the universe.

I'm continuing because I want this to be settled. If I don't get it clear either way, it'll constantly nag at the back of my head, because I don't like leaving things unfinished.

And as much as I enjoy pestering, this isn't the reason I'm prolonging this argument. I'm just incredibly goddamn stubborn at times

We all are.

..Who the fuck saw that paragraph coming? Man, something about us brings out the worst in eachother, doesn't it?

I guess that's why we love each other so much. In a friendly way, of course.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Here's the deal. I believe Klein is better than Fir. However, I suck at getting a point across. I would lose a formal debate due to not being clear with my words, not because the assumption is actually wrong.

You should probably just put Fir above Klein until you can get your point across then. No sense prolonging something when you apparently don't know how >_>. Make note of recent changes so that if anyone questions it, they can look into it.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

No, it means Fir catches up faster. By "neutral," I meant that Elphin route Klein doesn't have any extra advantages over Fir that Lalum route didn't. One more chapter, yet slightly lower stats.

Negligeably lower stats.

Well, she's the first decent flier you get, with good bases and fairly good growths. Then there's this Klein support, see...

You know, maybe the reason you can't see it is because you're stuck on Tate not deserving him. If we were arguing Tate's position, there'd be minor competition (despite the fact she's still his best partner...), but since we're arguing Klein's position, there's no need to worry, because Tate doesn't want anyone else unless her little sister is in play, and even that would only need a B.

I would be a bit more lineant with Tate as a support partner, but the problem comes with her jointime (ballistae in the near future, many axers and bowmen the next chapter that would ruin her...Basically has a hard time getting off the ground despite decent bases), if it didn't seem like you were trying to push it specifically. It has nothing to do with the argument, other than for some reason you seem to want them to always support. At times, I have to wonder...

You're right. I apologize.

Will do ya a world of good, it was starting to sound like you were about to raegquit.

I know it's slow, I said that, I didn't miss it. It also starts a lot earlier, so they could be working to a B already when Klein shows up. And then, support triangle, yay. It's better to have ClarinexDieckxRutger than SomeonexKleinxClarinexRutgerxDieckxLot, because then you'd have problems keeping them all near each other. 3 people have a much easier time staying together than 6.

Rather, it is most likely getting to a C by then. Again, do recall things like rolls, move difference, sometimes you'll want to split up (chapter 7, someone takes the left side, the others go right). Either way, it only takes 4 turns for a C, then 27 to a B as opposed to Deick's 59 turns for C then 60 to B.

Rutger also has 5 move, so why is RutgerxClarine viable but not DieckxClarine?

10+2 speed. 25 turns for a C, less than half the time it would take for Deick.

Because of the weird way supports are going. My problem is that we're not actually going to just deploy either of these characters without supporting them because both have 3+ good options to choose from. Saying Dieck isn't in play was actually the wrong way to go about it, but my point still stands. If Klein is getting Clarine, she's now missing Dieck or Rutger. It's probably best at that point if we have a KleinxClarinexDieck triangle, in which case Rutger needs a support, and there's Fir. Or if Clarine goes with Rutger, Lot would have to be in play for Dieck to support, and we have a bit of a support mess here. This is why I wanted to go with Tate and Percival because they work for him and it won't spawn two pages of arguments. Dieck, Clarine, and Elphin are just too much of a pain to argue through. Hell, Clarine could even make a good partner for Lance if Alan isn't in play, and Dieck can triangle with Wade/Lot/Thany if two of them are in play. Do you really want to go through all that? [/quote[

If you drag Lance into this, I will blow up the goddamn world.

Thing about Lot is, his offense can't really be fixed (his only offense boosters are...Ward and Thany...Ew). He grows into a hard-ass as is. Dieck helps boost it. Basically, Lot could be a standalone character, but if having him around helps Deick...

She has Gonzales, Lot, and Geese, who are slower but are generally more practical for her as well.

I'd find 20+2 speed more practical than 1+1. 20 to C, 30 to B. Both would take less time than a C with any of her other supports.

How do you figure that? If I have him play for Klein, I'm probably sending Klein forward.

There are others to dance, Klein can take his time.

I can accept it isn't guaranteed, but remember that Fir being in play (Noah's best partner) makes Noah more likely to be in play, because the support itself is good for both. We probably wouldn't use Noah is his partners weren't in play, but he's also not bad enough that we assume he's never in play, especially when his best partner is already in play.

Fir's also Bartre's best partner. Would that make him any more likely to be played?

Then nothing's going to be solved. And besides, if you would lose there, what makes this topic any different? As you've already said, it's not like anyone else is jumping in.

The assumption I believe is not wrong, it's that I'm not sure how to convince you of that, you will not budge!

RED FOX WILL NOT MOVE!

I'm continuing because I want this to be settled. If I don't get it clear either way, it'll constantly nag at the back of my head, because I don't like leaving things unfinished.

Thorough I see.

We all are.

Glad I'm not the only one.

I guess that's why we love each other so much. In a friendly way, of course.

I'd HOPE it wasn't more than friendly, that would be random and weird.

Sirius, your suggestion is considered, and will be implimented if this by any means will show any progress. I doubt it, so...Come on Red Fox, budge damn you!

Edited August 9, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

No, it means Fir catches up faster. By "neutral," I meant that Elphin route Klein doesn't have any extra advantages over Fir that Lalum route didn't. One more chapter, yet slightly lower stats.

Negligeably lower stats.

.....

Well, she's the first decent flier you get, with good bases and fairly good growths. Then there's this Klein support, see...

You know, maybe the reason you can't see it is because you're stuck on Tate not deserving him. If we were arguing Tate's position, there'd be minor competition (despite the fact she's still his best partner...), but since we're arguing Klein's position, there's no need to worry, because Tate doesn't want anyone else unless her little sister is in play, and even that would only need a B.

I would be a bit more lineant with Tate as a support partner, but the problem comes with her jointime (ballistae in the near future, many axers and bowmen the next chapter that would ruin her...Basically has a hard time getting off the ground despite decent bases), if it didn't seem like you were trying to push it specifically. It has nothing to do with the argument, other than for some reason you seem to want them to always support. At times, I have to wonder...

Klein and Tate want each other (not just for bonuses, read their conversations). Tate's got some problems, but so does Miledy, and I don't see her dropping. Point is, Klein helps a lot with those problems.

I know it's slow, I said that, I didn't miss it. It also starts a lot earlier, so they could be working to a B already when Klein shows up. And then, support triangle, yay. It's better to have ClarinexDieckxRutger than SomeonexKleinxClarinexRutgerxDieckxLot, because then you'd have problems keeping them all near each other. 3 people have a much easier time staying together than 6.

Rather, it is most likely getting to a C by then. Again, do recall things like rolls, move difference, sometimes you'll want to split up (chapter 7, someone takes the left side, the others go right). Either way, it only takes 4 turns for a C, then 27 to a B as opposed to Deick's 59 turns for C then 60 to B.

I recall Balcerzak saying that even in his ranked run he had a C a couple maps before Klein showed. 59 turns is a while, but when you consider how long they have to build it, it's not really that bad.

Also, you keep wanting to hype this move difference, but recall that Clarine is a healer. She uses her move to stay with the group, not jump ahead. It's like the opposite of supporting a Dancer; it's so easy.

Rutger also has 5 move, so why is RutgerxClarine viable but not DieckxClarine?

10+2 speed. 25 turns for a C, less than half the time it would take for Deick.

My point is that you said "lolmove difference" for ClarinexDieck but conveniently left it out for ClarinexRutger.

If you drag Lance into this, I will blow up the goddamn world.

*Drags Lance in*

Oops.

Possibilities exist, buddy.

She has Gonzales, Lot, and Geese, who are slower but are generally more practical for her as well.

I'd find 20+2 speed more practical than 1+1. 20 to C, 30 to B. Both would take less time than a C with any of her other supports.

By "practical" I meant that she's more likely to be around/next to them, since I don't think efficiency includes getting Dancers attacked.

How do you figure that? If I have him play for Klein, I'm probably sending Klein forward.

There are others to dance, Klein can take his time.

So Klein sits back and does nothing? Or Klein is not gaining points with Elphin? Not helping his case, buddy.

I can accept it isn't guaranteed, but remember that Fir being in play (Noah's best partner) makes Noah more likely to be in play, because the support itself is good for both. We probably wouldn't use Noah is his partners weren't in play, but he's also not bad enough that we assume he's never in play, especially when his best partner is already in play.

Fir's also Bartre's best partner. Would that make him any more likely to be played?

Hey, I never even thought of Bartre. If Klein can so easily get Elphin, Fir can definitely get Bartre. Full crit and avoid is pretty awesome for both, and it's lightning speed. It sure as hell helps Bartre, since he has no one else except possibly Gonzales.

The assumption I believe is not wrong, it's that I'm not sure how to convince you of that, you will not budge!

RED FOX WILL NOT MOVE!

You're declaring you're definitely right. Don't get cocky.

[grandjackal]

.....

Glad you agree.

Klein and Tate want each other (not just for bonuses, read their conversations). Tate's got some problems, but so does Miledy, and I don't see her dropping. Point is, Klein helps a lot with those problems.

This is why I''m having a hard time taking it seriously, you approach it with the subtlety of a fangirl for the pairing.

Also, you might wanna not compare her to Miledy. Whatever problems Miledy have (whatever the fuck they are) are far easier to fix than Tate's ;;>>

I recall Balcerzak saying that even in his ranked run he had a C a couple maps before Klein showed. 59 turns is a while, but when you consider how long they have to build it, it's not really that bad.

Also, you keep wanting to hype this move difference, but recall that Clarine is a healer. She uses her move to stay with the group, not jump ahead. It's like the opposite of supporting a Dancer; it's so easy.

A couple before at a C? I'd consider getting to the B faster greater than a chapter or two of a C.

Also consider she has the move. She has cavs to keep up with, and it can be felt when you gotta split up/the cavs are powering ahead (like chapter 8).

My point is that you said "lolmove difference" for ClarinexDieck but conveniently left it out for ClarinexRutger.

Considering it's more than twice as fast, I'm far more willing to forgive ClarinexRutger.

*Drags Lance in*

Oops.

Possibilities exist, buddy.

You had BEST explain why you're tossing out Deick and distrupting the greatest support triangle in the game.

By "practical" I meant that she's more likely to be around/next to them, since I don't think efficiency includes getting Dancers attacked.

I find it less practical when my dancers are dead.

So Klein sits back and does nothing? Or Klein is not gaining points with Elphin? Not helping his case, buddy.

He's firing over the front line, or he's scoring a pinch hit, he's far more likely to be around Elphin than most. I can't help but think its just starting to degrade to immaturiaty at this point.

Hey, I never even thought of Bartre. If Klein can so easily get Elphin, Fir can definitely get Bartre. Full crit and avoid is pretty awesome for both, and it's lightning speed. It sure as hell helps Bartre, since he has no one else except possibly Gonzales.

Of which would also get the dude full bonuses as he and Gonzo hav the same affinity.

Now please take this route and end this, as I really think Bartre is the star player in this argument. I really could see him in upper mid, and this could easily be why.

You're declaring you're definitely right. Don't get cocky.

Considering how stubbornly I'm approaching this (compared to just about any other character to be argued), I'd hope my reason is more than just no other reason.

[Florete]

.....

Glad you agree.

I don't, it's just that you're stating the exact same thing over again. Show me how they're negligible if they truly are.

Klein and Tate want each other (not just for bonuses, read their conversations). Tate's got some problems, but so does Miledy, and I don't see her dropping. Point is, Klein helps a lot with those problems.

This is why I''m having a hard time taking it seriously, you approach it with the subtlety of a fangirl for the pairing.

What about the part where it gives both awesome bonuses and is fast? You have yet to oppose that (probably because you can't, since it's true).

A couple before at a C? I'd consider getting to the B faster greater than a chapter or two of a C.

Also consider that Clarine doesn't really care about supports until she promotes, and since you yourself said Klein doesn't care who he supports, looks like ClarinexDieck is a go.

Also consider she has the move. She has cavs to keep up with, and it can be felt when you gotta split up/the cavs are powering ahead (like chapter 8).

So she can support Lance. Cool.

*Drags Lance in*

Oops.

Possibilities exist, buddy.

You had BEST explain why you're tossing out Deick and distrupting the greatest support triangle in the game.

Dude, you're the one doing that by saying DieckxClarinexRutger isn't happening. Why do you think Rutger is the best character in the game? His red coat?

By "practical" I meant that she's more likely to be around/next to them, since I don't think efficiency includes getting Dancers attacked.

I find it less practical when my dancers are dead.

I whole-heartedly agree, which is why Lalum should not be so close to Echidna at any time.

So Klein sits back and does nothing? Or Klein is not gaining points with Elphin? Not helping his case, buddy.

He's firing over the front line, or he's scoring a pinch hit, he's far more likely to be around Elphin than most. I can't help but think its just starting to degrade to immaturiaty at this point.

"Far more likely" doesn't even mean it's likely at all. Elphin shouldn't be near enemies, so if Klein is next to him, neither is he. How do you not see the problem?

Hey, I never even thought of Bartre. If Klein can so easily get Elphin, Fir can definitely get Bartre. Full crit and avoid is pretty awesome for both, and it's lightning speed. It sure as hell helps Bartre, since he has no one else except possibly Gonzales.

Of which would also get the dude full bonuses as he and Gonzo hav the same affinity.

Only according to you, 1+1 supports are much too slow for anyone, so I don't see where you're going. Bartre and Gonzales can go B, making Bartre that much better. BartrexGonzales B takes 119 turns, and A is 199. BartrexFir B is only 27 turns, and A is 54 turns. Lol, BartrexFir A is faster than BartrexGonzales C and starts just as soon. Which sounds better?

Now please take this route and end this, as I really think Bartre is the star player in this argument. I really could see him in upper mid, and this could easily be why.

If I'd thought of him sooner I'd have brought him up then. Silly me~

[Quasar]

When does Klein's worse AS begin to show and at what point will Fir be clearly superior? I don't think supports, as fun as they are to argue, are going to make or break the case for either character here.

[grandjackal]

I don't, it's just that you're stating the exact same thing over again. Show me how they're negligible if they truly are.

I can't imagine how in the long term, decimals will make or break a character.

What about the part where it gives both awesome bonuses and is fast? You have yet to oppose that (probably because you can't, since it's true).

Numbers, you silly person. Numbers. How much does it help our blue haired knight?

Also consider that Clarine doesn't really care about supports until she promotes, and since you yourself said Klein doesn't care who he supports, looks like ClarinexDieck is a go.

Nonsense. After promotion, she gains a form of offense. Sooner she gets all the delicious avoid and defense the better, and Klein gets to B faster.

So she can support Lance. Cool.

You sneaky son of a...

Dude, you're the one doing that by saying DieckxClarinexRutger isn't happening. Why do you think Rutger is the best character in the game? His red coat?

He's not the best character in the game, Alan and Lance are. Their triangle is better, and far more garunteed.

I whole-heartedly agree, which is why Lalum should not be so close to Echidna at any time.

Well I honestly would hope you aren't putting her on the front line. The support helps boost her defense and avoid, it's a precaution issue.

"Far more likely" doesn't even mean it's likely at all. Elphin shouldn't be near enemies, so if Klein is next to him, neither is he. How do you not see the problem?

Because Klein doesn't get that close to the enemy either.

If I'd thought of him sooner I'd have brought him up then. Silly me~

He rose originally because of supports helping him basically become Garret without as much speed issues and bows, and is basically Ward without the moments of fail and speed issues while not needing a promotion item. Now that it's in mind, both could propel Wario here to upper mid. I am not disagreeing with Bartre getting an A with Fir, just saying Gonzales is an awesome B.

[Colonel M]

Links need to be fixed on the front page.

Also thinking Niime > Hugh since Niime comes well packaged and an Angelic Robe suddenly makes her much more viable. Hugh has a minor lead in chapters and Aircalibur, but I think Niime isn't doing wtfterrible with her Dark Magic on Wyverns either.

[grandjackal]

I would fix the links, but the links got eaten by the time warp. Tried doing it manually, and for some damn reason it won't work.

Anyways, why is she not already above Hue? o0;;

[Florete]

I don't, it's just that you're stating the exact same thing over again. Show me how they're negligible if they truly are.

I can't imagine how in the long term, decimals will make or break a character.

-1 Str can be the difference between borderline and cleanly not killing.

What about the part where it gives both awesome bonuses and is fast? You have yet to oppose that (probably because you can't, since it's true).

Numbers, you silly person. Numbers. How much does it help our blue haired knight?

So you're going to make me give numbers when you won't yourself? Do you think +3 Def and +25 avoid is negligible also?

Also consider that Clarine doesn't really care about supports until she promotes, and since you yourself said Klein doesn't care who he supports, looks like ClarinexDieck is a go.

Nonsense. After promotion, she gains a form of offense. Sooner she gets all the delicious avoid and defense the better, and Klein gets to B faster.

Notice I said "until she promotes." Depending on how long that takes, she could easily have a B with Dieck already.

Dude, you're the one doing that by saying DieckxClarinexRutger isn't happening. Why do you think Rutger is the best character in the game? His red coat?

He's not the best character in the game, Alan and Lance are. Their triangle is better, and far more garunteed.

I beg to differ. Roy has problems keeping up with the Cavalier pair in ways DieckxClarinexRutger has none. Also, Roy as a character isn't that great in combat, and also caps out and doesn't even get to fight for a while. LancexAlan A is definitely good, but I can't see a triangle with Roy being their best option given the issues with it. Clarine and Lot can both do a better job filling his B support, and Alan can also take Tate, thought his position is worse than Lance's unless Ward is in play.

People always assume RoyxAlanxLance, but I question it's viability, especially since move differences are always being argued for everyone else.

It's been brought up before. Rutger should be > the cavs.

I whole-heartedly agree, which is why Lalum should not be so close to Echidna at any time.

Well I honestly would hope you aren't putting her on the front line. The support helps boost her defense and avoid, it's a precaution issue.

But when is it building?

"Far more likely" doesn't even mean it's likely at all. Elphin shouldn't be near enemies, so if Klein is next to him, neither is he. How do you not see the problem?

Because Klein doesn't get that close to the enemy either.

He needs to if he wants to fight.

If I'd thought of him sooner I'd have brought him up then. Silly me~

He rose originally because of supports helping him basically become Garret without as much speed issues and bows, and is basically Ward without the moments of fail and speed issues while not needing a promotion item. Now that it's in mind, both could propel Wario here to upper mid. I am not disagreeing with Bartre getting an A with Fir, just saying Gonzales is an awesome B.

K

Edited August 9, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire