Efficiency Tier List?

[Colonel M]

Wait, why should I define +/- utility? I'm not the one who is advocating a tier rise for a character. Fine, show that she is at least being comparable to the team and isn't being a detriment (specifics, is she ORKOed, 2RKOed? Does she 3RKO, 7RKO?).

[Mekkah]

Offense isn't Lilina's problem (well, it is when she just joins, but I think she can 2HKO things for a while, maybe double sometimes).

It's her defense. She gets one-rounded a lot, so you can never expose her on enemy phase without risking a reset, which sometimes means she can't attack on player phase either.

[Dat Nick]

Since there's no mention of negative utility on the front page I'll still say she's better than Hugh not existing.

No. Existing does not automatically>Not existing, for the same reason that Lugh gets shit for his earlygame and et cetera. And if it does, then justify Walt post-forceage.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[grandjackal]

I should add it to the list then, but I figured it would be obvious, considering with being used throughout the game, there are times you'd pick up on negativity.

[dondon151]

No. Existing does not automatically>Not existing, for the same reason that Lugh gets shit for his earlygame and et cetera. And if it does, then justify Walt post-forceage.

I don't agree that Lugh's earlygame performance is a suitable example. It's not that he's negative as much as he just doesn't help the team very much, as in he attacks basically on player phase only and doesn't do very good damage.

Oh yeah, a side note on the now dead Klein vs. Fir debate: Klein rocks in chapter 12.

Edited August 22, 2009 by dondon151

[Quasar]

Wait, why should I define +/- utility? I'm not the one who is advocating a tier rise for a character. Fine, show that she is at least being comparable to the team and isn't being a detriment (specifics, is she ORKOed, 2RKOed? Does she 3RKO, 7RKO?).

I never said you should define it. Unless somehow you're now managing the list. I already said she does at least comparable damage to the worst deployed unit and I thought it was a given she's ORKO'd by most opponents and needs to be sheltered for quite a while. The problem is I don't want to waste my time just to have some chump jump in and say "lol ur way of +/- is illogical" and have a few cross posts what way of +/- is correct and then silently agree to stop posting because there will be no agreement. Meanwhile Lilina is forgotten.

No. Existing does not automatically>Not existing, for the same reason that Lugh gets shit for his earlygame and et cetera. And if it does, then justify Walt post-forceage.

Lugh's bad earlygame is overhyped but w/e.

What's there to justify? He's not very good.

PS. Walt is currently tiered for being dropped immediately after being forced like most below mid.

I should add it to the list then, but I figured it would be obvious, considering with being used throughout the game, there are times you'd pick up on negativity.

Be specific while you're at it. Are you a negative if you're below mid tier, average unit or the optimal team? Something else?

In this case being sheltered is of course a form of negative utility as a sub-category of babying for an offensive unit but I'd rather argue her seeing less action than be excessively sheltered.

[Dat Nick]

PS. Walt is currently tiered for being dropped immediately after being forced like most below mid.

What I'm saying is assume he's NOT dropped and use him like a normal unit for the whole game: Don't you dare tell me he doesn't accumulate some sort of negative utility over that timeframe. Even after promotion his speed STILL sucks.

[Quasar]

I know what you meant. And yes, I can say with a straight face that he's not a negative because I don't believe in negative utility myself. He's better than an empty slot. It just depends on your view and on this matter there's a ton of them.

Edit: Would you look at that, now we're discussing +/- and forgetting Lilina. Not going to waste my time, call me when there's a rule regarding it and I'll finish the pre-Hugh part.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Quasar

[Dat Nick]

He's better than an empty slot.

That's the thing, he's not. He needs to be fenced in or avoid enemy contact altogether and deals piss-poor damage the whole game that isn't worth wasting the turns of 2-3 other units. Nevermind that with his shit speed he also can't risk any possible form of enemy contact since he's likely to even get doubled...and since we're seriously using Walt, that's a problem.

The team without Walt>The team with Walt. Therefore Walt is negative utility...it's a simple concept.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[grandjackal]

Be specific while you're at it. Are you a negative if you're below mid tier, average unit or the optimal team? Something else?

In this case being sheltered is of course a form of negative utility as a sub-category of babying for an offensive unit but I'd rather argue her seeing less action than be excessively sheltered.

Negative=Are you so bad that you're better off not being fielded/put in a corner? Would it be more efficient to just have an empty unit slot as opposed to you, or better to just keep you as far away from the enemy as possible?

This is where it becomes a problem, as I find Ranged Units do not suffer so badly from this, as though they don't like being attacked, their attacks take no counter and with the space in front of them it's much easier to "fence them in". It's like they're built to avoid negative. Their downside comes from not able to have the sheer offense most of the time, but they are still easy enough to protect. That's why Lou is still upper mid despite how bad he sucks at first.

[dondon151]

That's the thing, he's not. He needs to be fenced in or avoid enemy contact altogether and deals piss-poor damage the whole game that isn't worth wasting the turns of 2-3 other units. Nevermind that with his shit speed he also can't risk any possible form of enemy contact since he's likely to even get doubled...and since we're seriously using Walt, that's a problem.

The team without Walt>The team with Walt. Therefore Walt is negative utility...it's a simple concept.

No, I don't agree with this either. Again, you're assuming that the player is poor enough that he places Wolt in situations where he does need to be fenced in. Being locked to 2 range means that Wolt can attack a majority of enemies with no risk; additionally, the player would only hazard an attack with Wolt if other enemies within range can be defeated in the same player phase or walled off without actually hampering unit positioning.

This works against units like Klein and Shin as well, since even after acknowledging the fact that they're more durable than Wolt, having them face enemy attacks with no way to counter is still overall detrimental to team performance, so they need to be walled in as well. This can easily circumvented by saying that a smart player wouldn't send into combat a unit that needs to be immediately walled off because he knows such a decision is inefficient anyway.

[Dat Nick]

Again, you're assuming that the player is poor enough that he places Wolt in situations where he does need to be fenced in.

Again, you're assuming that "having Walt attack" is something to be related to poor playing, in which you concede that Walt is negative utility.

Being locked to 2 range means that Wolt can attack a majority of enemies with no risk

His player phase is obviously not the issue here...although even then he has no answer to javelins/mages and the like.

additionally, the player would only hazard an attack with Wolt if other enemies within range can be defeated in the same player phase or walled off without actually hampering unit positioning.

In this case Walt would be seeing action so infrequently his EXP gain would take a huge dive and his damage would suck even more, his durability would suck even more, and at this point he might as well just not be fielded as he takes too much effort to babysit and gives nothing to show for it.

This works against units like Klein and Shin as well, since even after acknowledging the fact that they're more durable than Wolt, having them face enemy attacks with no way to counter is still overall detrimental to team performance, so they need to be walled in as well.

The difference is that Klein and Shin actually have something called "offense", which is SOME form of compensation for using other units turns to wall in a unit. All Walt has is 5~ damage with Steel.

[dondon151]

Again, you're assuming that "having Walt attack" is something to be related to poor playing, in which you concede that Walt is negative utility.

This simplifies my original statement so much that it doesn't even reflect what I said.

His player phase is obviously not the issue here...although even then he has no answer to javelins/mages and the like.

Obviously, but not every group of enemies has a 2-range user, and of the ones that do, not every one of them will survive a player phase.

In this case Walt would be seeing action so infrequently his EXP gain would take a huge dive and his damage would suck even more, his durability would suck even more, and at this point he might as well just not be fielded as he takes too much effort to babysit and gives nothing to show for it.

No he wouldn't. This is a lot easier than it seems. It's not something I can really argue with rhetoric, however, but it's not difficult to feed Wolt rounds of combat with no risk.

The difference is that Klein and Shin actually have something called "offense", which is SOME form of compensation for using other units turns to wall in a unit. All Walt has is 5~ damage with Steel.

If you wall in a unit, then you can assume that the units used for the wall will see combat on enemy phase. Whatever the case, offensive leads don't compensate for big fat goose eggs on enemy phase if archers and nomads are played carelessly, so I don't see why this should be the prevailing assumption in a tier list discussion.

[grandjackal]

The fact there's always a space between archer/mage and enemy means they are not hard to wall in, meaning you'd have to be REAL careless to let that happen, or be incredibly swarmed of which I have to ask how you let that happen. Shin and Klein's enemy phase problems are pretty easy to compensate for.

As for Shin though, on promotion he DOES get swords. Sure they're garbage E rank, but it's better than nothing.

[Dat Nick]

This simplifies my original statement so much that it doesn't even reflect what I said.

Of course it does. You're just not seeing it.

What does Walt need to do to attack enemies? Get close. What do enemies often come in? Groups. If Walt attacks someone, what happens? He's in the range of TWO units at LEAST [the guy he attacked and at least one of his buddies], which is bad when he's so borderline on being one rounded, if NOT that. What's the only way out of death for him, outside of a lucky dodge? Get fenced in.

Obviously, but not every group of enemies has a 2-range user

I never said this was the case, and I never said it was a major problem for Walt. It's really a case of insult to injury more than anything else.

No he wouldn't. This is a lot easier than it seems. It's not something I can really argue with rhetoric, however, but it's not difficult to feed Wolt rounds of combat with no risk.

Here's the problem: Walt still sucks with EXP poured into him. Even at promotion he's not doubling anything for the love of crap.

Whatever the case, offensive leads don't compensate for big fat goose eggs on enemy phase if archers and nomads are played carelessly

At least they do actual damage as opposed to Walt's tickles. Post-promotion, Shin just needs to trade-chain too, rather than be fenced.

The fact there's always a space between archer/mage and enemy means they are not hard to wall in

Actually walling them is not the issue. It's wasting Alan/Lance/Marcus's turn when they all have something better to do.

Shin and Klein's enemy phase problems are pretty easy to compensate for.

So you're admitting Walt's aren't?

[grandjackal]

Walt's in low for a reason, people. No, his shortcomings are not easy to compensate for as otherwise he's just an archer with crappy offense. Shin and Klein are higher because they have actual offense to compensate with. I'm not gonna trash units just for crappy enemy phase, otherwise Lou would sink with them.

[Quasar]

Alan's performance is hurt by Walt? Let's have an ordinary situation of facing an enemy with 1 range. The optimal course of action is for Walt to attack first. Then Alan rushes in and attacks the enemy and finishes him off, or damages more. If the enemy is not dead Lance will also join the fun and attack the enemy. Enemy dies. Alan and Lance are both now shielding Walt even if they didn't intend to. No, he's not surrounded by your allies but with Alan directly in front of him it already reduces the chance for him being raped because not every enemy you face is a Paladin with enough move to outrun Usain Bolt. Also not every group of enemies consists of 5+ maniacs. You have so many played characters you can eliminate most of them on player phase and your 2-range attackers end up shielded as a part of that process.

[grandjackal]

Thak you Quasar for basically saying what I've been saying this entire time.

Now anyone think this would effect placement of uhhh, any archer at all?

[dondon151]

Of course it does. You're just not seeing it.

I never made equivalent "using Wolt" and "playing poorly."

What does Walt need to do to attack enemies? Get close. What do enemies often come in? Groups. If Walt attacks someone, what happens? He's in the range of TWO units at LEAST [the guy he attacked and at least one of his buddies], which is bad when he's so borderline on being one rounded, if NOT that. What's the only way out of death for him, outside of a lucky dodge? Get fenced in.

Or, you know, kill those enemies. Even if we replaced Wolt in this example with Klein, the stated decision would be incredibly stupid because Klein would then be in range of TWO units at LEAST, and thus he has to take two attacks without a chance to counter. Bow users can't solo enemies and rely heavily on other units to support them.

Here's the problem: Walt still sucks with EXP poured into him. Even at promotion he's not doubling anything for the love of crap.

Bad offense certainly isn't good, but offense is offense and can't really be a negative.

14.6 AS for 20/1 Wolt lets him borderline double most unpromoted non-mercenary enemies.

At least they do actual damage as opposed to Walt's tickles. Post-promotion, Shin just needs to trade-chain too, rather than be fenced.

13/0 Wolt 3RKOs fighters in chapter 12. The damage is enough for units like Dieck, Fir, OJ, Klein, etc. to KO.

Thak you Quasar for basically saying what I've been saying this entire time.

Now anyone think this would effect placement of uhhh, any archer at all?

I don't think so.

Edited August 22, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

...Anyone ever thought of A C C support combos? Basically, you start with all Cs, then only one you choose an A. Like a support square, but frillier and you get more boosts sooner.

Example: Lillina and her knights all take only 15 turns to get to a C. Lillina in 15 turns could get...2 ATK, 2 Def, 13 crit, 6 avoid, and 15 hit ;;>>

...This doesn't pertain to the Ostians alone as a note ;;>>

...Basically anyone that can do a square. Depending on affinities, an A C C combo might be more effective than an AB square, as you can squelch out better bonuses this way. Basically, measure out which would give better bonuses to those who'd need it more and see if A C C or A B is more effective. But I can tell you, A C C gives more bonuses faster, while being pretty similar to an AB

Roy: A B Allen Lance 5 ATK, 1 Def, 25 avoid, 19-21 crit, 19-21 hit

Roy: A C C Lance, Allen, Marcus 4 ATK, 2 Def, 25 avoid, 19 crit, 19 hit

Then consider Roy is getting an extra C, meaning more boosts sooner. This also has an effect on Deick's group. Example.

Thany: C C C Deick, Ward, Lot-2 ATK, 1 Def, 9 avoid, 12 hit, 12 crit. All yours for 25 turns.

Others than can do this.

Roy's Boys-Roy, Marcus, Walt, Lance, Allen-Make your selection, they can all do so with eachother.

Deick's Grou-Deick, Ward, Lot, Thany -You wouldn't believe how much Thany would benefit fromt his ;;>>

Ostian Royal Guard-Lillina, Boris, Barth, Wendy, OJ, Ashtor-Most flexible...and yet...

Survivors of Bern-Lou, Ellen, Miledy, Zeiss-impractical, and can only be done a certain way so it's inflexible. I think it's an AB only.

Royal Family-Rutger, Deick, Klein, Clarine-Another AB only, but goddammit these people are awesome!

Ilian Mercs-Zealot, Tate, Treck, Noah, Juno-Only AB without Juno...who won't be missed.

This would make the pegasus knights+Zealot another square, but seriously, Juno sucks.

Remnants-Bartre, Karel, Fir, Noah-So goddamn impractical, it makes your head spin.

Bodyguards of a Dead Man-Elphin, Percival, Douglas, Cecilia-Klein can be sprinkled in for an AB square.

Dark Blood-Sophiya, Hue, Niime, Ray-AB, and too damn slow

Distant Relatives-Hue, Ray, Chad, Lou-Would be great if Chad wasn't a thief and Hue wasn't slow supporting+expensive.

Then there's the BBC setup, or B C C C C set-up, or the quintuple C if for some reason you want to go be that way. Only group that can fully 5 C itself is Roy's Boys.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Robo Ky

[dondon151]

The problem with using lots of C supports is that you're less likely to have all supports in range. With your A/C/C example, if the A support is out of range, then there goes the majority of the bonuses (also consider that you might be left over with half bonuses that are rounded down). And then, with your C/C/C/C/C example, good luck getting full bonuses for all 5 units.

B/B/C is something that Roy already uses and is probably common for the person in the triangle that's stuck with B/B.

And then, it's not like different support combinations will have any real impact on the tier list.

Edited August 23, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Yeah, but if a C walks out of range, you didn't lose as much as when a B walks away. CCCCC is indeed rediculous as is, and I honestly find it lulzy, but I figured I'd bring it up.

As for ACC and BBC, these combos can help squelch out bonuses one would normally not get, though usually it's more important for Def and ATK bonuses. That, and they're generally quicker than ABs, as you can usually set up Cs quicker, BBCs usually being the quickest ways.

I mean, it does Thany wonders. The speed matters just as much as the set-up.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Quasar]

To be honest I don't think this is necessary because even when you need to shelter Lilina for a while she damages things afterwards never making her chapter output completely negative. 14 levels in ten chapters from someone so underleveled isn't really pushing it either so she can afford to avoid risky situations if they're not worth it. With her being mostly ORKO'd too this shouldn't be news to anyone but since you wanted it, you got it. Numbers by assumed level at that point with no supports to keep it more simple.

Some picks, no reinforments due too lazy. Thunder Era

8x: Iron Fighter 3RKO/1RKO

Thunder Mage 5RKO/3RKO

Steel Merc 4RKO/1RKO

10A: Steel Merc 4RKO/1RKO

HA Fighter 3RKO/1RKO

Iron Archer 2-3RKO/2RKO

11A: Steel Fighter 3RKO/1RKO

Steel Archer 3RKO/2RKO

Flux Shaman 6RKO/2RKO

13: SteelS Hero 3-4RKO/1RKO

SilverL Paladin 4RKO/1RKO

Steel/Jav Cav 3RKO/2RKO

Elfire Era

14x: Poison Pirate 2RKO/1-2RKO

Steel DRider 1RKO/1RKO (Aircalibur)

Steel Pirate 2RKO/1RKO

Steel Merc 3RKO/1RKO

15: Steel Cavalier 3RKO/2RKO (down to 2RKO with any support that gives 1 power)

LBow Archer 2RKO/2RKO

Elfire Valk 4RKO/2RKO

There we go. Strong but frail. I'd say the absolute worst case scenario is that she turns out neutral for this duration after adding Hugh's recruitment cost to the pile. After that we have a Lilina who:

-is superior in offense

-is tied in defense

-is a superior healer/staff user

-has better rank in Anima, allowing the end-tomes used earlier. Even if she doesn't really need them

-is a superior supporter, even if all the past help is discarded she is helping Gonzales/Roy/OJ/whatever immediately after Hugh joins

[grandjackal]

Indeed, Lillina I feel is underrated. Then with a CCC with Boris, Barth and Wendy (I know, rediculous, but hear me out) would net her an instant 2 ATK, 2 Def, 6 avoid, 12 crit, and 15 hit. Wendy could be replaced with Roy. Hell, she's got plenty of people to choose from. This however would only take 15 turns, Roy would only the a single turn, Gonzales the same as the knights.

Hue's pretty much a standalone unit with a huge financial cost, but not necessarily the performance anyways if he's basically an inferior Lillina at that point. On top of it, it's hard to consider a unit with range ever being a negative. Their range allows people to protect her and finish off what she chipped without facing a counter. With her power, that is one HUGE chip, thus plenty could easily finish off what she chips.

I see a STRONG case of her rising. Anyone object?

Quasar, how does this make you feel about Ray?

Secondary note: Is there any better mamkute slayer than she?

Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky

[dondon151]

Didn't we agree a long time ago (before SF lost its data) that Hugh should be in low with Ray above him? Lilina needs to go above him as well.

I don't buy your support suggestion because it involves using 3 units that suck in the time frame right after they join. C Roy C OJ seems more plausible and still gives 2 atk, 1 def, 10 crit, and other token bonuses, though OJ's support is a little slower. And then you can probably add in a Gonzales support to the mix.

Edited August 24, 2009 by dondon151