Efficiency Tier List?

[Reikken]

She can have some trouble at the start of ch 2, yes. You can still get a few kills with her, though. Like on the first turn after Dieck and friends show up, there's a soldier right in front of the forts, right? If Lot misses one of his hand axe tosses, or if the soldier has too much hp/def for him to ORK, Thany can finish. After that, yeah, it's just throwing javelins from behind until that knot of enemies is cleared. One thing that can help is the fact that the archer always moves last, so you don't have to worry about it running in melee range of Dieck/Lot and shooting over them at Thany until there won't be anyone standing in the way of it by the end of the enemy phase. And then the clean-up afterwards is easy.

ch 3 is easy to get kills in

ch 4, fortunately, there are only two of these lolnomads on the entire map. And they come one at a time, so it's quite manageable. For instance, if you have Marcus do the initial counterattack, you can probably kill off all but one of the cavaliers in the first group on turn 2, and even give Thany the killing blow on the nomad. Marcus silver lance + Thany iron lance = dead nomad. Of course, as with everything on this chapter especially, you'll need to make sure you have someone else in range in case Thany misses. And not just for Thany's sake. Like Lugh can take one cavalier to the face, but he can't take a cavlier and a nomad. Indeed, replaying this chapter just now, Thany's weakness to bows had no effect on what I did. And this was an old file in which I hadn't really leveled Thany; she was lv 2. Instead of 3-4 like she would be if you plan on actually using her.

ch5... OHK by a hand axe? No... Lugh and Chad, yes, but even a base level Thany doesn't get OHK'd by a hand axe. The fighter would need to have 15 str for that. I'm seeing 13s and 14s, but no 15s. I guess there could be one with 15 str. But that's vs base level Thany anyway. She's no longer base level now. Steel axes, yes, OHK, but not hand axes. Anyway, she obviously won't be as useful as someone with a sword and extant hp/def (ie the top tier units), but compared to Lot, she's doing plenty fine enough. There are quite a few mercs as well, and being able to attack from weird places helps too.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Reikken

[Florete]

Why is Sophia a tier above Yuno, or above her at all? Sophia needs to go through 10 levels of massive suck to do anything useful (With Hit issues no less) while Yuno can at least ferry people around at base level freely. This can be especially useful in a chapter like 21(I think? The one with Murdock) where it's huge and we need to get Roy all the way over to the throne. I'd say that is > Sophia.

On Hit issues, Sophia's base hit is 74. Before enemy avoid. Lol much? She also has only 90% accuracy growth, so it isn't getting a lot better anytime soon.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mekkah]

Yuno ferrying on Ch21 is a no-no. 90% of the map flies, and ferrying kills her avo all the while she's being 2HKOed. At best she can pick up the Crest in the village, but that's almost worthless at this point. Sophia is mostly above others for her Guiding Ring. If you assume she's fielded all the way through then she probably stacks up too much suck for Yuno to overcome. Her only save besides E staves is trying to use Angelic Robe + Nosferatu, but her hit and hp/def are likely still too bad to save her there.

[Florete]

Just maneuver her around all the fliers. They aren't everywhere, so it shouldn't be too tough to do. At best, it's better than using Roy's 5 move to drag himself all the way to the throne. And she can do this in other maps, too, not just this one.

I wouldn't count Sophia's Guiding Ring as an advantage for her. It's just like giving her credit for recruiting someone since I only have to get her to a specific space for it and not actively use her, and we don't do that.

[Dat Nick]

I say kick Sophia a tier down for now and let the shenanigans of who's better be worked out later.

[Mekkah]

They aren't everywhere

The problem is exactly that they are. Or rather, that they can get anywhere, thanks to 8-9 mov and bypassing terrain, and sometimes with Javelins.

Though overall I still think Yuno > Sophia if you don't give her full credit for the ring. If you do, I'd say Sophia is better, as making a magic user be promoted for 14x, 15, 16 >>> anything Yuno does. Whether you should give her credit for it? Maybe. We do give thieves credit for their 100% of finding other desert items over other people's 10% at most (maybe more like 20% for luckwhores like Ellen), I dunno why 100% of finding a Guiding Ring over everyone else with 0% would be any different. I personally give Dart credit for getting Geitz's Killer Bow and Steel Axe, and Matthew credit for Guy's Killing Edge.

[grandjackal]

I'mma knock Sophiya down, but not below Juno till this is settled.

[Reikken]

Yuno ferrying on Ch21 is a no-no. 90% of the map flies, and ferrying kills her avo all the while she's being 2HKOed.

It's not her avo that's the problem, as I wouldn't expect her to dodge anyway. It's her AS. It's low enough that the reduction means she's getting doubled.

[grandjackal]

On top of that, the map is sprawling with fliers who literally pop out from out of nowhere at practically every angle. She can't even stay still, or Gale's force will rip her apart.

[Quasar]

ch5... OHK by a hand axe? No... Lugh and Chad, yes, but even a base level Thany doesn't get OHK'd by a hand axe. The fighter would need to have 15 str for that. I'm seeing 13s and 14s, but no 15s. I guess there could be one with 15 str. But that's vs base level Thany anyway. She's no longer base level now. Steel axes, yes, OHK, but not hand axes. Anyway, she obviously won't be as useful as someone with a sword and extant hp/def (ie the top tier units), but compared to Lot, she's doing plenty fine enough. There are quite a few mercs as well, and being able to attack from weird places helps too.

It's possible for the Fighters to have 15 Str while admittably it's one or two at tops a map. Sometimes there aren't any. 15 str HA does 15+7+1=23 damage and it ORKO's an average level 3 Thany (18+6-1=23). Level 4 too if she didn't get HP of Def but that's kind of pushing it even if they're both still below .5 (Edit2: To elaborate assuming 35% chance of getting HP and 30% chance for Def she has ~54% chance of being able to survive).

Well, here he is. Smiling for the camera and all.

She's not doing fine compared to Lot. Let's compare. Existing enemy types Thany does fine against for this timeframe:

Merc

Myrm

Mage

Soldier

Enemies Lot does fine against:

Mage

Soldier

Fighter

Brigand

Cavalier

Armor

Archer

Nomad

WyvernK

Pirate

I already said how I thought you were pushing Lance's levels and I still stand by that statement. Lance is, however, a very good unit with great combat abilities, excellent supports and ideal movement range. Lance levels a lot faster than units who aren't equally good so in my opinion you can't have someone like Thany level comparably to Lance.

Of course it's still your take against mine, the difference is that this time I brought my own play data with me that matches my experiences. Some views from users not named Reikken or Quasar would be welcome.

Edit: Yeah, I'm still all about giving Sophia credit for the Guiding Ring because no one else can get it. If she gets credit S > J for a tier, if not J > S. This is considering having to put up with Sophia for the rest of the game.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Quasar

[Florete]

They aren't everywhere

The problem is exactly that they are. Or rather, that they can get anywhere, thanks to 8-9 mov and bypassing terrain, and sometimes with Javelins.

Though overall I still think Yuno > Sophia if you don't give her full credit for the ring. If you do, I'd say Sophia is better, as making a magic user be promoted for 14x, 15, 16 >>> anything Yuno does. Whether you should give her credit for it? Maybe. We do give thieves credit for their 100% of finding other desert items over other people's 10% at most (maybe more like 20% for luckwhores like Ellen), I dunno why 100% of finding a Guiding Ring over everyone else with 0% would be any different. I personally give Dart credit for getting Geitz's Killer Bow and Steel Axe, and Matthew credit for Guy's Killing Edge.

Well, yeah, I guess that would be the scenario. But then it poses the question, why do they get credit for the items but never the character? If Matthew gets credit for giving us a Killing Edge, shouldn't he get credit for giving us a High tier character as well?

Seeing as the Guiding Ring is only one of two before chapter 16, it is rather significant. If you give her credit for it, then yeah, she's > Yuno. I can't really agree with it, but if that's how Robo Ky feels, I'll roll.

But I still think the whole Wyvern thing is being kind of overplayed. They get around, but I'd still find it faster to have Yuno carry Roy than to have him walk.

[Reikken]

15 str HA does 15+7+1=23 damage and it ORKO's an average level 3 Thany (18+6-1=23).

WTA is +1 atk. Not +1 atk AND -1 def.

Yes, Lot is better at combat early on. I'm not refuting that. What I am refuting is you thinking that Thany is so bad that she can't gain exp.

[Dat Nick]

If Thany has any issues getting EXP, those would lie with offense, not defense.

[Quasar]

Huh, yeah. It's only attack and I should know that. Thanks for pointing it out. Edit: It seems the only option left is that my Thany didn't get a HP level up. She was 3 and half around that time since I had her do the taxi in 2 and visit S village and shop at 4. I only recorded levels, not the stats they got.. hm. It would be beneficial to have a FE6 hack that forces average stats.

Never have I said Thany is so bad she is unable to gain exp. She has trouble getting kills and being the only flier for the beginning lowers the amount of combat she'll see (not that this is a negative for her but it does affect her exp gain). 3 is probably the best chapter for her to gain kills because it has so many Soldiers but even there I question how many are you letting her finish off.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Quasar

[Reikken]

What makes Clarine in the same league as Alan, Lance, and Rutger?

[grandjackal]

What makes Clarine in the same league as Alan, Lance, and Rutger?

Well lessee....Her supports basically make her invincible, earlygame healing+horse, invincibility+doubling+aircalibur make her hilarious in Bern.

I dunno.

[Florete]

Clarine can support 3 top tier characters and an Upper Mid character. All for pretty sweet bonuses. Some of that is what makes them any good in the first place. Two are slow, but also start practically immediately. And she's the best healer you have, like, forever.

Two of her supports also build full crit, which can partially make up for her low Mag.

[grandjackal]

Well, technically she's not healing as much damage as those with higher magic, but I think the whole being invincible thing more than makes up for that fact when we can just go ahead and use better staffs to fix that problem.

[Reikken]

What makes Clarine in the same league as Alan, Lance, and Rutger?

Well lessee....Her supports basically make her invincible, earlygame healing+horse, invincibility+doubling+aircalibur make her hilarious in Bern.

I dunno.

Aircalibur is B, and she promotes with E anima, though, and she's not that much better--even worse at times--than Ellen or Saul before promotion (who are two tiers lower).

Also, on everything until B, her offense sucks, and on anything other than a flier even after B, her offense sucks.

[Dat Nick]

I thought Clarine did drop to high at one point? What pushed her back?

[grandjackal]

I don't recall that, but I forgot about the rank.

Still, you'll have a hard time arguing her down, sinc she can literally become invincible.

[Dat Nick]

Um, Ky, her durability is not what's being complained about here.

[Reikken]

Indeed. Lance and such are top tier because they have w1n defense and offense at the same time, which means that they can counterattack enemies and move in to attack whatever enemy without fear of dying, and whatever enemy they attack or counterattack gets owned. Having so much defense on a unit with poor offense isn't nearly as important since the unit can't do as much with said defense.

[Florete]

But you have to take into account Clarine's healing. That's the best part of her utility. Offense is just a bonus. I don't know what you'd call realistic supports for her, but with something like A Rutger/B Dieck and Thunder, she pulls ~38 crit before enemy luck at 20/4-5. It depends on enemy Luck values, but that's probably about 1/3 of her attacks being a crit, and since she doubles like everything, that stacks up. So I'm not really seeing how she doesn't also have w1n offense and defense at the same time, especially since someone like Lance occasionally has Str on the short side.

[grandjackal]

Plus, if Deick's filled up, she still has the option of Klein of which she only loses a tiny bit of crit, while building up generally at the same pace if not faster, as Clarine would likely be at C at best by the time Klein shows up, and it takes him like no time to get a C and then B. On top of that, he has 1 move over Deick to keep up better with her until he promotes, and Deick has other options anyways. So in the end, Clarine is also very flexible to a team.