Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

So uh, what happened to Roy moving down?

Everyone keeps saying it, but no one makes an argument, they just say "why not?". I can see he can do with going down, but I'd like to see some proof first.

Also, this may just be a side effect of playing too much 0% growths, but I think Thany needs to move up. I'm not sure where, as flier utility is hard to directly compare to combat utility, but it might be able to move her to high (as Reikken asserted that her combat problems weren't that bad midgame).

The only issue I have with Reikken's comparisons was that their supports were way too fast. I'm at chapter 11E and Thany still has C Dieck, even though I stick them together whenever possible. Dieck got C Lot at the end of chapter 6, and I stopped deploying Lot past chapter 7, so I can't say anything about the speed of the B support, but it will probably be at least chapter 11 before that happens. And finally, Thany never got to C with Lot before chapter 8.

They have the same speed for one another, of 10+2, 25 turns for a C, 30 for a B, 40 for an A. You'd have to be damned quick if you stuck them together whenever possible from joining to 11E.

Speaking of which, there are times when Thany has no reason to rescue-transport her supporter. With someone rescued, you can build a support with them. It's another way to build support.

Example in 11E, you can fly Dieck over the nearby wall to the shops and arena area to pull enemies away from the people attacking the north side. If you had Lot with you, you could do the same for him, and Deick could trade-drop Lot off her, and they'd all be together there at turn 3.

But yes, seems Thany might go higher and higher regardless. Her offense isn't bad on the western isles, and with prepromotion her durability is pretty great with her avoid (supports+swords in an axe heavy place, iron swords don't weigh her down so now they have to deal with her at FULL avoid), and flying transport. However, there is one thing people tend to miss-Ignoring the terrain. Western isles has another annoying factor, it is incredibly cramped. Look at chapter 9 and tell me I'm wrong. With her flight, she can ignore all of it, and allow full movement for others while being able to strike and retreat whenever she wants, because nothing impedes her incredible 8 flight move. Chapter 9 is not hte only example either, just look at the other maps and you'll know.

I could easily see her in high. Anyone agree, disagree?

[dondon151]

Everyone keeps saying it, but no one makes an argument, they just say "why not?". I can see he can do with going down, but I'd like to see some proof first.

Does "being locked to 20/0 and swords" count?

Roy can move below Shin. Shin has both 1 and 2 range options upon promotion and his 20/1 stats annihilate Roy's, so it's safe to say that Shin wins after chapter 16 definitively. Should the player go to Ilia, he has effective damage on PKs, and should the player go to Sacae, he can counterattack everything there accurately (it's interesting to note how much better nomads are on both route than PKs, lol). And after that segment, Shin boasts effective damage against WKs, which Roy can only match with a Wyrmslayer (though Shin could probably use that too!). Between chapters 9 and 16, it's closer. Shin has more mov than Roy and can double enemies that Roy can't (namely, fighters not weighed down by Steel Axes), but his offense is player phase only. Roy, however, has to rely on supports to match damage output and keep up, and he really has to leverage enemy phase action if he wants to compete with Shin's offense, but then the player has to decide if he wants to counter every enemy with shaky 1-2 range hit and not use Roy, or use Roy but only counter the 1 range enemies (and then, the player has to decide if he wants to use Roy or someone else).

Thany is currently being discussed, but flying utility and promotion > Roy IMO.

Lot I'm not so sure about. He doesn't lose availability to Roy and also has some pretty decent supports, but his AS and hit are generally worse than Roy's until promotion. But basically he has 1-2 range, effective weapons against fliers post-promotion, and superior durability forever, and his AS problems go away for a little while with +2 speed promotion bonus.

Lugh... well, I hate discussing Lugh, so I'm just going to skip over that.

I think Saul might be able to go above Roy. Actually, I think Saul should be a bit higher now. Probably above Lugh (earlygame healing > higher anima rank).

They have the same speed for one another, of 10+2, 25 turns for a C, 30 for a B, 40 for an A. You'd have to be damned quick if you stuck them together whenever possible from joining to 11E.

Reikken had double B's listed for Thany by chapter 9, which involves her spending 62.5% of her time adjacent to both Lot and Dieck since they join in chapter 2 (at least according to my turn counts). That's quite a bit...

Speaking of which, there are times when Thany has no reason to rescue-transport her supporter. With someone rescued, you can build a support with them. It's another way to build support.

I had Thany rescuing Dieck for literally 16 of my 18 turns spend on chapter 8. I didn't have a C before then.

Example in 11E, you can fly Dieck over the nearby wall to the shops and arena area to pull enemies away from the people attacking the north side. If you had Lot with you, you could do the same for him, and Deick could trade-drop Lot off her, and they'd all be together there at turn 3.

If you like using mounted units, you can theoretically transport characters across 1-space gaps in exponentially increasing amounts. You can transport 1 unit on turn 1, 2 units on turn 2, 4 units on turn 3, etc. (this is assuming that Lalum or Elphin refreshes Thany so that she can rescue-drop in the same turn). Of course, you'll run out of mounted units... The game does give you 8 mounted units to work with by the time that Lalum/Elphin joins, so Thany can drop something like 6 units across a wall in the span of 3 turns.

But yes, seems Thany might go higher and higher regardless. Her offense isn't bad on the western isles, and with prepromotion her durability is pretty great with her avoid (supports+swords in an axe heavy place, iron swords don't weigh her down so now they have to deal with her at FULL avoid), and flying transport. However, there is one thing people tend to miss-Ignoring the terrain. Western isles has another annoying factor, it is incredibly cramped. Look at chapter 9 and tell me I'm wrong. With her flight, she can ignore all of it, and allow full movement for others while being able to strike and retreat whenever she wants, because nothing impedes her incredible 8 flight move. Chapter 9 is not hte only example either, just look at the other maps and you'll know.

The one thing that Thany absolutely has to watch out for is archers, and they're rather common in the western isles.

[grandjackal]

Does "being locked to 20/0 and swords" count?

Roy can move below Shin. Shin has both 1 and 2 range options upon promotion and his 20/1 stats annihilate Roy's, so it's safe to say that Shin wins after chapter 16 definitively. Should the player go to Ilia, he has effective damage on PKs, and should the player go to Sacae, he can counterattack everything there accurately (it's interesting to note how much better nomads are on both route than PKs, lol). And after that segment, Shin boasts effective damage against WKs, which Roy can only match with a Wyrmslayer (though Shin could probably use that too!). Between chapters 9 and 16, it's closer. Shin has more mov than Roy and can double enemies that Roy can't (namely, fighters not weighed down by Steel Axes), but his offense is player phase only. Roy, however, has to rely on supports to match damage output and keep up, and he really has to leverage enemy phase action if he wants to compete with Shin's offense, but then the player has to decide if he wants to counter every enemy with shaky 1-2 range hit and not use Roy, or use Roy but only counter the 1 range enemies (and then, the player has to decide if he wants to use Roy or someone else).

Fair enough to me.

Thany is currently being discussed, but flying utility and promotion > Roy IMO.

I could too, thing is that has to do with Thany rising. We're discussing how high she'll rise, so we'll see what happens. It's not an or situation, it's an and situation. She moves up and he moves down.

Lot I'm not so sure about. He doesn't lose availability to Roy and also has some pretty decent supports, but his AS and hit are generally worse than Roy's until promotion. But basically he has 1-2 range, effective weapons against fliers post-promotion, and superior durability forever, and his AS problems go away for a little while with +2 speed promotion bonus.

He is rather key in the support of his team mates, and is far more durable. Roy on hte other hand actually could slow his cavs down, and is easily replaced by Marcus. I could see him below Lot, though I suppose I'll have to do better than that.

Lugh... well, I hate discussing Lugh, so I'm just going to skip over that.

I still feel Lou is overrated. Like, highly so.

I think Saul might be able to go above Roy. Actually, I think Saul should be a bit higher now. Probably above Lugh (earlygame healing > higher anima rank).

I think he should go higher as well, he is probably the easiest mage to train up+one of the best offensively. I just find his Luck and his support problems to be big enough that it might be a problem to raise him.

Reikken had double B's listed for Thany by chapter 9, which involves her spending 62.5% of her time adjacent to both Lot and Dieck since they join in chapter 2 (at least according to my turn counts). That's quite a bit...

I had Thany rescuing Dieck for literally 16 of my 18 turns spend on chapter 8. I didn't have a C before then.

If you like using mounted units, you can theoretically transport characters across 1-space gaps in exponentially increasing amounts. You can transport 1 unit on turn 1, 2 units on turn 2, 4 units on turn 3, etc. (this is assuming that Lalum or Elphin refreshes Thany so that she can rescue-drop in the same turn). Of course, you'll run out of mounted units... The game does give you 8 mounted units to work with by the time that Lalum/Elphin joins, so Thany can drop something like 6 units across a wall in the span of 3 turns.

The one thing that Thany absolutely has to watch out for is archers, and they're rather common in the western isles.

So perhaps she is not as key to supporting the two mercs. But it just begs the question, with her performance regardless in the Western Isles, how high does she rise? She seems too good on the isles, but that can only get her so far really, despite how OK she is later. Could you see her above let's saaayyyy, Shin?

[Dat Nick]

Not only is effective coefficent x3 in this game [And enemy archers have good str too], the isles are loaded with axes which Thany can't do shit against and if they don't ORKO her back, they 2RKO. Mercs are the only thing she does okay against. Keyword, okay. She lacks the AS to double them, and her str is still a problem.

Plus it's FoW so Thany's always running the problem of getting One shotted out of nowhere if you don't keep her the hell away from the action, plus she's getting gang raped by axes even if you TRY to use her. Don't know about other chapters but it's probably less extreme, but Thany's C9 performance is shit, the end.

Could you see her above let's saaayyyy, Shin?

HELL no. I'll take bows over depressing durability. And much better offense, too.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

Jumpy conclusion, did you miss the early promotion argument Reikken made? Swords solve her problem for the most part.

Your point on bows is taken into account though. Is it enough to outdo flight?

[dondon151]

Well, the main problem with archers is that they greatly hinder her offensive performance since she can't do anything until they're dead. That said, you don't need to participate in combat to have flying utility. Reikken already gave examples (probably), but I'll just list what I've encountered so far in my current playthrough:

2: transporting the Armorslayer (I personally didn't do this but it's a valid point)

5: bypassing the forests AND the gate

7: flying through houses with relative impunity and rescuing Treck, visiting villages

8x: bypassing the whole upper segment (actually you can just go straight west, then north to Henning)

9: bypassing the lower segment, dropping people onto the upper island, dropping people directly onto the left side of the map

10E: blocking the west fort

11E: recruiting Tate, skipping the wall

This is all in addition to just being a mounted unit, which helps in chapters 4, 6, and 8.

And she hasn't been attacked by an archer once.

Edited October 6, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Jumpy conclusion, did you miss the early promotion argument Reikken made? Swords solve her problem for the most part.

...How is Thany going to be level 10 by chapter 9? When she's THAT bad at combat?

Running around the map delivering stuff/rescuing people might be nice utility, but it's not getting her any EXP. And let's face it, Thany's earlygame combat SUCKS DICK. In C2 the only thing she doesn't suck at is 2RKOing Loldiers, but she's still getting 2RKOd by them back so it's a problem, plus soldiers give poor EXP anyway. In C3 enemy stats take a spike upwards plus there's the addition of armors and cavs, so things only go downhill from there when you factor in that Thany was too busy sucking at everything in C2 except transporting the armorslayer.

C4 is a bunch of axemen, cavs, nomads....it sucks for her. The loldiers, but everybody is ORKOing them by now so who cares?

C5 is a total axe-fest. And there's bowmen. Yeah. Dunno the Merc's HP/Def but I'm pretty sure she's not even 4RKOing with Iron no thanks to her crap defense. Oh wait, just mercs in C2 have 12 AS and Iron weighs her down by 6, so there's even a good chance she's getting doubled if she TRIES to use Iron. Mages? She can't double unless she has slim [And not even then if she hasn't levelled up by now, not impossible when you consider how bad she is] in which case she's not ORKOing, and the mage is 2RKOing her back with Fire at a range where he won't even take a counter.

C5 is more of the same.

C6 is even more of the same, except Mages have gotten weaker to the point where she can double with Iron so at least she has SOMETHING.

Wait though, even WITH Iron she can't ORKO Mages.

With 11 base attack against a 20hp/3def mage, she needs to gain 2 attack before she can cleanly ORKO it with Iron. 1 may not be impossible with level ups, but she NEEDS a Ward/Lot support in play to kill it because she's not gaining 6 levels with this kind of awful performance. But think of what this does: It requires our "high move" mage killer to restrict her movement so her supports can catch up to her. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of swooping in from nowhere and killing a mage if you have to do it while a burly axe fighter who can't climb mountains is chained to you, you know?

Enemy AS is high enough [8-9] in 7 to where she needs Slim to double. And Slim has lol might on top of Thany's lol strength, so she's still doing poorly.

I've made my point, Thany's difficult time levelling needs to be accounted for more. It's pretty sad when Lugh out of all people has less issues getting up to speed than you [More damage with single hit+doesn't take counters which 2RKO him]

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[dondon151]

Her true combat woes are present during like her first 4 chapters of existence, and granted she does require some effort to get to a point where he combat isn't terrible (e.g. 5/0 Thany on average can double all but one mage in chapter 6 with Iron Lance, 6/0 doubles all archers and Javelin cavs in chapter 7 in addition to armors with Steel Lance, 7/0 to 8/0 for Steel Sword cavs). Anyway, that's roughly 4 levels in her first 4 chapters, and her combat isn't terrible in the first 2 because of the presence of soldiers, not to mention that she is underleveled anyway, so her EXP gain is somewhat inflated despite not seeing much combat.

[Dat Nick]

(e.g. 5/0 Thany on average can double all but one mage in chapter 6 with Iron Lance, 6/0 doubles all archers and Javelin cavs in chapter 7 in addition to armors with Steel Lance, 7/0 to 8/0 for Steel Sword cavs).

...Stop right there and explain to me how Thany can reasonably get one level a chapter when she can't reasonably kill anything that isn't a Loldier.

[Florete]

(e.g. 5/0 Thany on average can double all but one mage in chapter 6 with Iron Lance, 6/0 doubles all archers and Javelin cavs in chapter 7 in addition to armors with Steel Lance, 7/0 to 8/0 for Steel Sword cavs).

...Stop right there and explain to me how Thany can reasonably get one level a chapter when she can't reasonably kill anything that isn't a Loldier.

You probably should have read the rest of his post. He did explain.

[Dat Nick]

No, he didn't. He skipped straight to "Oh 5/0 7/0 Thany isn't awful at combat"

Furthermore, the soldiers are underlevelled too. I mean really, you're looking at lvl 3s vs level 1s.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[dondon151]

Chapter 2: 1/0 Thany gets 11 EXP from attacking and 34 EXP from killing. 2 kills + 3 attacks or 3 kills.

Chapter 3: 2/0 Thany gets 11 EXP from attacking and 35 EXP from killing. Same deal here.

Chapter 4: given how poor PC performance is on this map, every bit of damage counts, so Thany will be attacking and/or killing.

Chapter 5: given how the forest hinders movement if we go that way, Thany has lots of free spots to attack.

[grandjackal]

All I really got out of that argument was that Thany isn't Deick or Marcus. Please tell me who is ORKOing anything, outside of slayer weapon use at that time. You will find the answer to be no one. Offensively, she is only a tad weaker than Lance. A TAD. In fact, with her superior speed growth, she'll actually come to eventually double more often than he is (with iron at least, but I don't see Steel doing favors for anybody).

For fuck's sakes, she's not Boris here. She's not slow, inaccurate and low on movement. She's comparable to a flying Lance. It sucks she's mono-weapon with lances, but it's not a total loss at this point of the game, seeing as it's not axe heavy isles.

[Dat Nick]

All I really got out of that argument was that Thany isn't Deick or Marcus. Please tell me who is ORKOing anything, outside of slayer weapon use at that time.

Um, I'm talking about Loldiers. You know, the guys that everybody not named Walt, Roy, or Bors one rounds just fine. So this isn't an excuse.

Btw, dondon, please tell me how Thany is getting three soldier kills when it is, simply put, a pain in the dick to do so. Why would you waste time setting up kills for Thany when Dieck one rounds them on the counter, meaning they suicide him? Yes, Iron Sword, but I don't see her gaining more than one kill this way unless playing efficiently means we're intentionally slowing down to make sure Thany kills X amount of enemies now.

Offensively, she is only a tad weaker than Lance. A TAD. In fact, with her superior speed growth, she'll actually come to eventually double more often than he is (with iron at least, but I don't see Steel doing favors for anybody).

Don't even. Lance has far superior con which means he'll often be at roughly the same AS as Thany if she uses Iron, and slim makes the str disparity far more notable. Plus, he has a support who can actually keep up with his movement [Alan]. Not only are Ward and Lot unable to keep up with her, Ward even sucks later so he's likely not played anymore by the Isles. Did I mention that the Cavs+Roy triangle starts a chapter earlier and is way faster anyway?

Don't even bother trying to counter that the gap isn't an issue either, because if you do, I can just toss Roy into the equation. Lance doesn't fly, so Roy can keep up with him easier than Ward and Lot can keep up with Thany anyway.

Thany's so far away from Lance offensively it's not even funny.

For fuck's sakes, she's not Boris here. She's not slow, inaccurate and low on movement.

No, instead she's weak, frail, and won't use a lot of that movement unless she's being a rescuer because she doesn't want to be exposed to enemy action, what with being 2RKOd and all and offering weak counters in return.

She's comparable to a flying Lance.

I just told you why she isn't anywhere near Lance in offense. I shouldn't have to explain why Lance is at least ten times better in defense.

but it's not a total loss at this point of the game, seeing as it's not axe heavy isles.

No, but there ARE lots of axes to go around. They exist during all of C2, C3, and C4, and C5 is almost nothing but axes.

...And archers.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[dondon151]

Um, I'm talking about Loldiers. You know, the guys that everybody not named Walt, Roy, or Bors one rounds just fine. So this isn't an excuse.

Wolt attacks and Thany kills with no harm done to either of them. Dieck can't ORKO soldiers with Iron Sword, Lot actually can't ORKO soldiers in chapter 3 unless he got a strength level up, and he still can't ORKO them with a Hand Axe, Lance can't ORKO them period, Wade can't double 2-3 AS soldiers without a speed level up, and Allen needs something like 3-5 atk from base to ORKO them, so no, I don't think "everybody one rounds just fine."

I will probably edit more in later.

Edited October 7, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Dieck can't ORKO soldiers with Iron Sword

....Why do you think they conveniently had Dieck start with an Iron Blade in his inventory?

Lot actually can't ORKO

Yes he can. They have 27 HP and 0 def. Lot's base attack with Iron is 15, 16 with WTA considered. He has more than enough to ORKO with Hand so I don't know what you're trying to pull here.

Wade can't double 2-3 AS soldiers without a speed level up

I thought their AS was lower. My bad.

Lance can't ORKO them period

Lance has 14 base atk with Iron Lance, ignoring the fact that C Allen already isn't at all out of the question.

and Allen needs something like 3-5 atk from base to ORKO

If Lance can, goddess knows Allen is.

[grandjackal]

I'm sorry, a C between Allen and Lance when Thany shows up? Yeah, how long are you taking to complete chapter 1?

Two, know the difference between Deick killing and someone else killing his scraps? Someone else gets kill exp. Otherwise, not slowing us down at all.

[Dat Nick]

I'm sorry, a C between Allen and Lance when Thany shows up? Yeah, how long are you taking to complete chapter 1?

I just showed that Lance doesn't even need a level OR a support to ORKO Loldiers so w/e

Two, know the difference between Deick killing and someone else killing his scraps? Someone else gets kill exp. Otherwise, not slowing us down at all.

I do. And I know that we're going far out of our way if Thany gets more than one kill out of the Loldiers Dieck weakens with Iron Sword.

Why? Because they're a bunch of lolerskates that anybody can kill, easy. After Dieck weakens the swarm, Thany kills one, Lot kills one, Dieck kills one...Ward kills one and we're out of easy targets for Thany.

[dondon151]

I was taking enemy samples from chapter 3. Whatever the case, you're making a giant deal out of 1 or 2 levels. If Thany requires a little bit of effort early on to be a good combat unit later on, then of course the player would put in that extra effort.

[Mekkah]

Just for the record: Soldiers in Ch2 from my save, sorted by hp:

L3

26 hp/0 def

26 hp/0 def

27 hp/0 def

27 hp/1 def

28 hp/2 def

29 hp/1 def

29 hp/0 def

29 hp/1 def

The ones in Ch3 are all L5, and they have 30-32 hp and 0-3 def.

[Dat Nick]

I was consulting the enemy samples page and not Bal's stats out of habit [i never even knew Bal's stats were added tbh] so my bad there

[grandjackal]

So, does this mean you concede? If it does, then Thany>Shin.

[dondon151]

I think the largest factor threatening Thany's performance past midgame is Delphi Shield competition - Thany absolutely requires the Delphi Shield to function past chapter 16x. Iron Bow nomads 2HKO her (I'm assuming they have ~36 atk because I don't have stats) with hit rates equal to something like 2*skill + .5*luck, because Thany has ~80 avo and Iron Bow has 80 hit. Anything stronger than a normal Ballista will OHKO her at well, though their hit rates are considerably lower.

[Dat Nick]

So, does this mean you concede? If it does, then Thany>Shin.

wtf? Not only did the words "I concede" not come out of my mouth, how the hell do you get Thany>Shin out of a proposal to move Thany down, not in an argument about Thany v Shin?

I still don't like the level a chapter assumption for Thany, because even if characters have slight issues ORKOing Loldiers, it doesn't change the fact that we need to intentionally reduce our efficency to get Thany more than one or two kills in C2/C3, and by C4 most of her easy kills to nab are gone.

[dondon151]

I still don't like the level a chapter assumption for Thany, because even if characters have slight issues ORKOing Loldiers, it doesn't change the fact that we need to intentionally reduce our efficency to get Thany more than one or two kills in C2/C3, and by C4 most of her easy kills to nab are gone.

We're reducing efficiency early on by a relatively small amount to get greater returns out of chapter 9 and onwards. I'd say that's reasonable.

Even if Thany has damage problems in chapters 4 and 5, she's still getting combat EXP from those 2 maps. Chapter 4 cavaliers and nomads are super durable (and nomads aren't vulnerable to Halberd/Rapier) and come in groups of like 2-3, so every bit of damage counts. Chapter 5 involves lots of forest terrain + mercs, so flying lance users are helpful even if Thany doesn't do a lot of damage to them (mercs are also super durable).