Dr. Tarrasque Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Good point. Only problem I see so far is Sacae Nomads doubling him and Rutger as his competition for that first Hero Crest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Good point. Only problem I see so far is Sacae Nomads doubling him and Rutger as his competition for that first Hero Crest. Concerning Sacaens, at worst it's nomad troopers. He's probably level 10 or 11 or something at this point. Normal nomads would only be doing 5-supports damage, worst case 3 damage, best case 0. A nomad trooper, worst that's probably happening is 7x2 damage without his supports, with his 43 HP that's a 4RKO. With barebones supports it's 5x2 damage, a 5RKO, and best case senario it's 2x2 damage, an 11RKO. Concerning Rutger-Explain how he got 6 levels in 2 chapters (he joins practically when chapter 4 is over). On top of this, Deick gets ranged combat, 20 mt at base without supports ORKOs everything but knights in chapter 8, of which he can whip out steel and leave them in single digit HP, again if he has a CC with offense he could possibly kill an armor with steel, which would free up Rutger the armorslayer for the bosses. This doesn't stop Deick from being better at using it to kill armor bosses. Deick has 3 more might and 3 more acc if we're comparing. 37 mt+supports while Rutger probably doesn't have a support going that would help him by a significant amount, who has 34. Let's not forget that Deick now not only has range, but weapon control. This also pays off later, as now later he might be attacking with silver axes rather than just killers. Basically Rutger would be good against bosses, but Deick would be better against everything else while being good enough on bosses. Rutger is tight competition, but Deick has plenty of other things that put him ahead. So, Deick to top? Also, your thoughts on Tate, since it seemed to go by the wayside. Considering she's Noah with the ability to double, flight, less effort and becomes better in the end, would you say Tate could go to the bottom of upper mid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Rutger can wait if he's even lvl 10 by C7. His speed is damn near capped already [wtf 15 base/50% growth] so he doesn't really get anything out of a early promotion. Sides, you get another one in C11, so it's not the end of the world if he has to wait five more chapters after Dick takes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Well enough of this, I feel convinced that Deick is the best character in the game. Moving Deick to the top. Now, what are people's opinions on Tate going to the bottom of upper mid? Edited October 13, 2009 by France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Dieck is not the best character in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Dieck is not the best character in the game. This isn't a 0% growth efficiency run tier list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Not taking sides here but you should do more than say "no he's not lol" Half the reason why I'm convinced early promo Dick holds is because nobody is making any serious effort to disprove it. I mean, I myself am iffy about Dick being the best character in the game via early promotion, but I can't really come up with anything against it. Then again, I'm a massive Dick fanboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Not taking sides here but you should do more than say "no he's not lol" Half the reason why I'm convinced early promo Dick holds is because nobody is making any serious effort to disprove it. I mean, I myself am iffy about Dick being the best character in the game via early promotion, but I can't really come up with anything against it. Then again, I'm a massive Dick fanboy. Basically this. No one has really tried to disprove it. I'm so adding the bolded to my sig tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I beat ya to it. Also, I don't think you should dismiss Rutger on the Hero Crest so hastily, it's his Crit bonus you should be taking into consideration, not the promo stat ups. Edited October 13, 2009 by ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well I don't know exactly what the crit does from him. He goes from having inconsistent offense to having notably less inconsistent offense, but I still don't think that's outweighing 1-2 range and [mostly] 100% consistent offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well I don't know exactly what the crit does from him. He goes from having inconsistent offense to having notably less inconsistent offense, but I still don't think that's outweighing 1-2 range and [mostly] 100% consistent offense. Your units aren't always 1 rounding everything and the crit bonus helps Rutger on this. Then there's killing an enemy on the first attack to avoid a counter-attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I beat ya to it. Also, I don't think you should dismiss Rutger on the Hero Crest so hastily, it's his Crit bonus you should be taking into consideration, not the promo stat us. He's better on the bosses because of it, but due to range, Deick is just getting there first. On top of this, Deick is far more safe. Rutger is mono-weapon for chapter 8, packing 43 avoid. This reduces Javelin and Steel to 12, WTD is 23. Enemy hit involved, Rutger still has displayed hit on himself. Deick has WTA with his shiny new axes and has 2 more HP and 2 more defense+possible supports. Deick gets there safely. The avoid difference, by the way, would be a grand total of 7. Deick runs them down to 20 hit, WTA down to 10. Both are basically untouchable on the isles, but Deick has ranged options to counter hand axers and archers. Rutger has plenty against him currently. EDIT: Deick at 12/1 with a hand axe has 20 mt without supports. This is enough to ORKO everything not a knight, of which he has an armorslayer. With supports, even a steel axe would suffice, meaning he's not taking one of the two available armorslayers. So he's ORKOing, and with a ranged weapon. Deick's offense is far more consistent, as Rutger needs steel to do that, which reduces his speed due to con, so he has less avoid. Edited October 13, 2009 by France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Ranged weapons from enemies are few in numbers and being better in offense against the more common enemies beats Dieck's 2 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Ranged weapons from enemies are few in numbers and being better in offense against the more common enemies beats Dieck's 2 range. Wut? Hand axe is like one of his weakest weapon choices at this time, and he's still ORKOing. Also, you been to the isles lately? There are quite a few ranged fighters running around there. Archers, hand axers, shamans... Edited October 13, 2009 by France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Your units aren't always 1 rounding everything and the crit bonus helps Rutger on this. In case you haven't figured it out yet, Dick's a LOT better than your other units. 15 AS is doubling everything on the isles. Then there's killing an enemy on the first attack to avoid a counter-attack. 37hp/12 def plus WTA and possible Lot support [it's always assumed for Thany] means that Dick doesn't even CARE about taking a counter, and Handaxe is more reliable than crits anyway. Ranged weapons from enemies are few in numbers and being better in offense against the more common enemies beats Dieck's 2 range. I want to know how Rutger's offense is better when Dick ORKOs everything on the Isles guaranteed whereas Rutger needs a crit. There IS a strength gap created by the level difference [Dick has a monopoly on the C2 and C3 boss on the basis nobody else can Armorslayer yet which only increases that gap] and I don't see Rutger ready for promotion by C7 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 This isn't a 0% growth efficiency run tier list. Oh, really? I never noticed! This potshot was totally unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 ladies put the handbags down, and if you want Dick down, give reasoning why instead of "no u" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 This isn't a 0% growth efficiency run tier list. Oh, really? I never noticed! This potshot was totally unnecessary. Seriously Don, you're better than this. Do you have a actual argument? If you do, be so kind as to show it to the class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I definitely don't agree with Dieck as the best character in the game either. The problem here is that you just did a few things that you felt made him better, you didn't compare him to the people who were above him to see if he was actually better than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Well, the only argument against Alan/Lance taking the early promotion is that the opportunity cost for THEM taking it is much more notable, because one of them has to get the shaft instead of the crest. And that's the only way they're comparing to him. Rutger doesn't benefit as much from the crest as much as Dick, which is why Dick has more of a claim to the crest. Edited October 13, 2009 by Athena's Chest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 That's got absolutely nothing to do with it. How does it make him better? That's what I'm not seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 That's got absolutely nothing to do with it. How does it make him better? That's what I'm not seeing. I'm now ORKOing with range. Because of this, I benefit much better from the +1 range. I make up for the lost levels with the sheer time I have to pad out my levels as a prepromote to make up for whatever deficit I made, to the point of eliminating it completely. I now have weapon control, and far better durability along with 1 more Str and greater weapon access. I could actually be better than if used "normally", because I eliminated my own prepromote deficit, and now later I'm using silver axes. The one swordreaver allows me 15 strikes of having full triangle control. I am now ORKOing far more capably, I am now more durable, I am doubling far more on the isles, I can respond to ranged attacks. Compared to I got 30 crit... Hmmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm now ORKOing with range. Is there proof of this? I make up for the lost levels with the sheer time I have to pad out my levels as a prepromote to make up for whatever deficit I made, to the point of eliminating it completely. What does that even mean? All I see is that 12/1 Dieck gains experience slower than 12/0 Dieck. I got 30 crit...Hmmmm.... You know, I never even refuted giving Dieck the first Hero Crest, which seems to be what both you and Chesty boy think I'm saying. But it should be noted that Rutger also gets pretty good promo bonuses on top of 30 crit, which I'm sure would help me make a list of advantages just like yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Fighters aren't quite ORKOd at range but they almost are which is way better than anybody else with range does. 12/3 Dick has 15 str+7 handaxe mt+1 Lot support=23 atk. C10A fighters have 37 HP/5 def. He leaves them with liek 1 HP. Furthermore it's not like Dick can't just melee them. WTA, Lot support, and he has enough concrete durability to shrug hits off even if he DOES get hit. Edited October 13, 2009 by Athena's Chest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I still haven't seen a single comparison that shows "Dieck > Rutger/Lance/Alan now because of this and this and this." All I'm seeing is "Dieck can now do this and so he's cool." Also, it annoys me at how fast this change was made despite all the opposition to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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