Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Changed the position of top tier. Continue the argument to see if Rutger deserves top or not.

[Salad Utensil]

Changed the position of top tier. Continue the argument to see if Rutger deserves top or not.

Clarine is listed twice

[Florete]

Is there even anyone against having Rutger in Top?

[grandjackal]

Is there even anyone against having Rutger in Top?

Currently there's me, no one else has spoken up. It's 2-1, but you could say not enough people have shown up in congress to count it as a fair numbered agreement to make the change.

[dondon151]

Tier lists are not majority decided, anyway, or they shouldn't be. Mekkah himself isn't too sure on Clarine or Rutger in top tier.

[Dat Nick]

Oh:

It's the general estimated level for chapter 21.

I kind of question this, too. I'm only on 14x and he's already 7.

[Mekkah]

I think Rutger is good enough to stick to top overall, but I have no elaborate statistical basis for that, merely past experiences and intuition. He is definitely worse than the cavs. He is probably worse than Dieck. Against Clarine, it is utility versus combat...and I rarely think a tier gap should be between these two (unless it's like, Ellen's staff utility versus someone with bad combat).

[grandjackal]

I feel top seems about right anyways. Current configuration will stay how it is until something can be said otherwise.

Anyways, what's next? I say it's the mages overall. There have been several changes that have them running amok through the list.

-Lou I still believe could drop a bit. Others have been bringing up him being overrated. Considering leveling speed, do you think he would be level 13 by the isles? If not, he is not doubling as consistantly as you may think. I think he could drop below Ellen, or even Ashtor. These two have off the bat utility. Hell, Ashtor can also hold his own for most of his existence of usefulness. Perhaps Ellen>Ashtor>Lou?

-It's been brought up that Nosferatanking can help even Niime be tanky (granted we robe her first). What of Ray?

-Hue has been brought up with his money woes. With the silver card, it has been shown that he's not expensive enough to really murder our bank account, but merely that we might not be loading up on killer weapons before the silver card. Would you say he still deserves low, despite being basically a magical version of Allen?

Edited October 18, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[dondon151]

Not only does Hugh cost 10000G + promo item, he also has doubling problems. Unlike Allen.

[Dat Nick]

I don't think Lugh should sag down a tier or anything. He IS your only reasonable dragonkiller outside of the 15 use Wyrmslayer [Or Lilina I guess] and that should count for something. I have no opinion on him vs Ellen.

And yes, Hugh has to worry about his AS before he has to worry about 10k.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

Not only does Hugh cost 10000G + promo item, he also has doubling problems. Unlike Allen.

Oh woops, was considering Hue after being leveled. I guess I meant after promotion, but yeah I can see the problem now.

Lessee though, he's level 15 and the enemy average level is 17. 7 exp a hit, 33 a kill. Basically if he takes care of it himself, that's 40 exp a head. 2 levels every 5 kills, he has 3 elixers. He starts with some enemies charging him, he could take some of them himself. Then consider he could just head north and take care of the mamkute since he's just sort of sitting there. 7-8 a shot, 27 a kill. He's doing 10 damage to them, 6RKO. considering that he is perhaps doing this while we're busy doing what the hell ever else, he could possibly do this himself. That's 65 Exp.

I suppose what I'm saying is he has leveling speed to consider, and has the benefits of having Elixers. At his start anyways.

I don't think Lugh should sag down a tier or anything. He IS your only reasonable dragonkiller outside of the 15 use Wyrmslayer [Or Lilina I guess] and that should count for something. I have no opinion on him vs Ellen.

I suppose that's true. Well it is once we get Aircalibur, which is after 14 basically. Until then, I wouldn't say he's reliable, at least not as much as anyone with a bow would be.

[dondon151]

Klein/Shin are pretty awesome at killing WKs, and Igrene too once she comes along. The only dragon killing that Lugh is doing is ch7's WKs, but he does like 12 damage to them whereas base Sue could do 19 with a Steel Bow (granted, with hit in the 60s).

[grandjackal]

Klein/Shin are pretty awesome at killing WKs, and Igrene too once she comes along. The only dragon killing that Lugh is doing is ch7's WKs, but he does like 12 damage to them whereas base Sue could do 19 with a Steel Bow (granted, with hit in the 60s).

Sue's also got better mobility.

Also, 8 levels in 4 chapters with his performance? 12 damage is WAY too generous to him, he needs to be level 9 to be pulling off 12 damage.

So Don, you suggesting Lou drop below Klein?

Also, your thoughts on Hue's leveling speed and Elixer helping deter his starting level?

[Dat Nick]

When I say Dragons I mean Mamkutes...

[grandjackal]

When I say Dragons I mean Mamkutes...

Only dragon prior to chapter 16 are Aion (of whom I'm preferring to use someone with a wyrmslayer), and the ones in the desert (and no way in hell is Lou just gonna take them on his own. Even at level 20, he has 11 Mag,and the best he can hope for is Elfire if for some reason its still in-tact by now. That's 9x2 damage. It's a 3RKO, but even THEN he's pushing it. If he's screwed a single point of magic, it just turned to a 4RKO. Uhhh, what about this is reliable now? Anyone with the Durandal, Armads, or Wyrmslayer is assuredly doing better. Wyrmslayer alone on the desert mamkutes is doing 7x2 damage, meaning you need a mere 10 Str to do just as well as Lou, and I can't imagine anyone with a sword having 10 Str or less by now. Those people could probably take a counter as well. Lou can't survive a blast until 20/2.

So no, Lou is not reliable in this aspect either.

Speaking of which, Lou at level 20 has 11 magic, Hue starts with 2 more magic. In fact, Hue has 1 more HP and 4 more Def. Lou's wins are 3 speed, 3 Skill, 1 Luck. 7 hit and avoid lead, and obvious doubling, but Hue with his leveling speed, defensive stats and Elixers can help mitigate that by being able to hold his own for a bit.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[dondon151]

Also, 8 levels in 4 chapters with his performance? 12 damage is WAY too generous to him, he needs to be level 9 to be pulling off 12 damage.

I only said 12 damage because I know he has 9 atk at base with Fire, and I was just assuming that enemy WKs have 0 res (I know for a fact that's not true). Whatever the case, Sue's better at killing those WKs, although you should be using Zealot for 11*2 damage with Silver Lance.

So Don, you suggesting Lou drop below Klein?

I'm not too sure about that. Klein really slows down later on, and it doesn't help that Miugre with its sexy +5 spd comes pretty late, because Klein would love to use that, and there's not much else in terms of Hammerne candidates.

Also, your thoughts on Hue's leveling speed and Elixer helping deter his starting level?

If you're implying that Elixir helps offset Hugh's recruitment cost to some small extent, I wouldn't really credit that to him. Every other character in the game is then technically recruited for a negative cost because their weapons are totally free. Also, I wouldn't get into hype regarding Hugh's leveling speed, because his durability is pretty bad relative to everyone else's and he'll start to have trouble keeping up if he doesn't promote immediately. I suppose Hugh can get a level off ORKOing knights in chapter 16 and promote in 16x for 16/1, which is slightly better than 15/1, but that doesn't solve any of his doubling problems.

When I say Dragons I mean Mamkutes...

Promoted unit + Durandal. Base Rutger and Dieck both OHKO Aine.

[grandjackal]

If you're implying that Elixir helps offset Hugh's recruitment cost to some small extent, I wouldn't really credit that to him. Every other character in the game is then technically recruited for a negative cost because their weapons are totally free. Also, I wouldn't get into hype regarding Hugh's leveling speed, because his durability is pretty bad relative to everyone else's and he'll start to have trouble keeping up if he doesn't promote immediately. I suppose Hugh can get a level off ORKOing knights in chapter 16 and promote in 16x for 16/1, which is slightly better than 15/1, but that doesn't solve any of his doubling problems.

It's more that he just starts off able to take on the right side with little aid, at least not in the sense you need to heal him if he gets attacked, as he can do it himself. We didn't have to save anything to give him this ability.

I suppose at this point I'm being a bit dramatic now...

As for Lou though, you seem to underestimate just exactly how long it takes for Lou to speed up. He's not pulling off reliable offense until basically after promotion, Klein doesn't really start slowing down till Bern, He's still awesomeness in Ilia, and archer counter is always welcome in Sacae. Speaking of Sacae, it's one of those scenarios where Lou sort of sucks. Level 7 Klein has 36 HP, 10 Def. 8 damage, 18 AS not doubling his 15 AS, that's 8 damage, a 5RKO. Lou even at level 20/3 gets 3RKOd by basic nomads. Klein's packing 30 damage with silver, Lou has 24 with Elfire, neither are doubling. Since nomads aren't cavs, I'd figure both are 2RKOing.

As for Ilia, Lou has nowhere near reliable avoid. 20/3, he has 46, Ilian pegs have 44 hit. With steel, they have 53 displayed, and do 24 mt, which 2RKOs Lou with his 30 HP and 8 Def. You could say supports, but then I must ask, what supports? Ellen? 9 avoid isn't god moding. Chad? Kinda dumb to bring him. Ray? Lower mid, tough nuts.

In fact, promoting him at chapter 16, he has 16 AS. This is only doubling cavs, and he's doing dicky damage to mages. Paladins have 14 AS, and he doesn't double that until level 20/4. 47 HP and 9 Res, Lou with Elfire/Aircalibur is only doing 15 damage, a 4RKO. I'm not impressed.

Basically Lou speeds up at Bern, which is when Klein slows down. That's a long time working Lou up to be anything but the slayer of bullet sponge enemies like basic cavs.

This is also discrediting Klein for not needing a promotion item, has brave, killer, and Miurge. Killers for possible ORKOs on nomads, Brave Bow to ACTUALLY ORKO nomads, wyvern lords in chapter 21, Miurge for paladins, yadda yadda yadda. Lou has no response to any of this.

So basically Lou's E staffs and meh enemy phase due to unstable supports, or Klein's retardedly superior player phase and weapon selection? Hmmm...

Yeah, I see no excuse. Klein>Lou.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Dr. Tarrasque]

As for Ilia, Lou has nowhere near reliable avoid. 20/3, he has 46, Ilian pegs have 44 hit.

http://www.fireemble...afe6/cap18B.htm

http://www.fireemble...afe6/cap19B.htm

I dare you to tell me that his durability sucks with such terrain availability. Stop sandbagging.

In fact, promoting him at chapter 16, he has 16 AS. This is only doubling cavs, and he's doing dicky damage to mages. Paladins have 14 AS, and he doesn't double that until level 20/4. 47 HP and 9 Res, Lou with Elfire/Aircalibur is only doing 15 damage, a 4RKO. I'm not impressed.

Odd, I usually promote him on C12 to 20/1. Latest being C13.

This is also discrediting Klein for not needing a promotion item, has brave, killer, and Miurge. Killers for possible ORKOs on nomads, Brave Bow to ACTUALLY ORKO nomads, wyvern lords in chapter 21, Miurge for paladins, yadda yadda yadda. Lou has no response to any of this.

Nomadic Troopers use Swords and double Klein while that's not the case wit Lugh unless we're talking this sandbagged Lugh you love so much.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Vergil

[grandjackal]

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap18B.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap19B.htm

I dare you to tell me that his durability sucks with such terrain availability. Stop sandbagging.

First thing I notice first map is a ballistae in immediate reach, and for the second map I notice that most of the time the terrain would involve basically holding a position. 1st map is fair, but Klein has a way to deal with the movement problem terrain offers, and the second map basically requires you to stand still to put the terrain to such use.

Lets not get dependent now.

Odd, I usually promote him on C12 to 20/1. Latest being C13.

Clarine: I want weapon rank!

Saul and Ellen: Chapter 11 has Light Magic, and we take no effort to raise...

Lou's the last option for that ring.

Nomadic Troopers use Swords and double Klein while that's not the case the Lugh unless we're talking this sandbagged Lugh you love so much.

They pack 24 Mt with their swords. Klein could have a support with Clarine at A by now, boosting his Def to 13. 22 damage to his 36 HP. 14 HP. Nomads would otherwise do 5 damage, so he's still surviving 3 nomads. Even doubled, it takes 2. To 20/3 Lou, that's 16 damage, bringing him down to 14 HP. Nomads do 10 damage to him. Klein STILL has a durability advantage.

Then Lou's Counter he would move back, land two attacks. Klein takes the hit, steps back and doubles with Brave to compensate.

Speaking of Rutger, I've noticed that Deick has other options earlier, and probably puts them to just as good if not better use. Clarine has Klein who gets to A at rapid speed (7 C, 20 B, 28 A as opposed to 25 C, 30 B, 40 A), and puts that A to better use. Rutger is dangerously close to having very little support outside of B Clarine...

Edited October 18, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://www.fireemble...afe6/cap18B.htm

http://www.fireemble...afe6/cap19B.htm

I dare you to tell me that his durability sucks with such terrain availability. Stop sandbagging.

First thing I notice first map is a ballistae in immediate reach, and for the second map I notice that most of the time the terrain would involve basically holding a position. 1st map is fair, but Klein has a way to deal with the movement problem terrain offers, and the second map basically requires you to stand still to put the terrain to such use.

Lets not get dependent now.

Not necessarily, you could place Lugh in one of those nearby forests with Aircalibur and there goes the first group. Next he could go on the fort or the next forests and deal with the second group.

Clarine: I want weapon rank!

Saul and Ellen: Chapter 11 has Light Magic, and we take no effort to raise...

Lou's the last option for that ring.

Clarine: And keep her MAG low as well as getting weak chip damage... the reason you apparently hate Lugh. Let's say Lugh and Clarine are in the same team. If you promote Clarine, you get weaker chip damage than Lugh is doing at this point and the staves she already had. If you promote Lugh, his offense improves and you get E staves so that's 2 healers running around, 1 with Physics capability and the other with Heal, replacing Saul/Ellen.

Saul and Ellen: Light magic sucks, we have shit offense and if Clarine's in play, we're pretty much just occasional Restore staves for like 2 chapters. Honestly, it's similar to saying that you should promote Wrys before Mage Marich...

They pack 24 Mt with their swords. Klein could have a support with Clarine at A by now, boosting his Def to 13. 22 damage to his 36 HP. 14 HP. Nomads would otherwise do 5 damage, so he's still surviving 3 nomads. Even doubled, it takes 2. To 20/3 Lou, that's 16 damage, bringing him down to 14 HP. Nomads do 10 damage to him. Klein STILL has a durability advantage.

Not if you're playing efficiently.

Then Lou's Counter he would move back, land two attacks. Klein takes the hit, steps back and doubles with Brave to compensate.

And fail to kill the Nomadic Trooper while Lugh has access to Forblaze which gives him the ATK needed to kill the Trooper in the time Klein has failed to do so. The Brave Bow could also be gone by then.

Then comes the later chapters like C21. Taking on multiple Wyverns on a mountain or forest with Aircalibur (easily killing them) >>>> Killing one at a time.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Vergil

[Florete]

Speaking of Rutger, I've noticed that Deick has other options earlier, and probably puts them to just as good if not better use. Clarine has Klein who gets to A at rapid speed (7 C, 20 B, 28 A as opposed to 25 C, 30 B, 40 A), and puts that A to better use. Rutger is dangerously close to having very little support outside of B Clarine...

A Clarine. When Rutger's around, there's no reason Klein should take A Clarine. What would you rather have, a slightly more defensive Sniper, or your SM with more crit and avoid? This is not a matter of what helps Clarine more (since all she would want is avoid and atk, both give avoid and neither atk), it's a matter of who gets more out of it and does more with it.

[grandjackal]

Not necessarily, you could place Lugh in one of those nearby forests with Aircalibur and there goes the first group. Next he could go on the fort or the next forests and deal with the second group.

Wow, you lowered hit down to 43 displayed, they do 15 damage instead of 16, which still 2RKOs his 30 HP.

Don't even make bring in the more accurate Falcos...All it takes is one pegasi to hit him, and he's in mortal danger. Their 115 hit to his 48 avoid is 67. Forest down to 57, and these things are enemies too fast for Lou to double with their 14 AS. This means he cannot kill them with aircalibur. However, if we were moving normally, and we ran into one, Klein could just take it down with his brave bow.

He's not dodging reliably enough to be able to just do this.

Clarine: And keep her MAG low as well as getting weak chip damage... the reason you apparently hate Lugh. Let's say Lugh and Clarine are in the same team. If you promote Clarine, you get weaker chip damage than Lugh is doing at this point and the staves she already had. If you promote Lugh, his offense improves and you get E staves so that's 2 healers running around, 1 with Physics capability and the other with Heal, replacing Saul/Ellen.

Wow, so I changed nothing about her except now she uses better magic later, and unlike Lou she WILL be doubling consistently? You also seem to forget that Valks have increased exp gains, and she still has staffs to work with. It would be genuinely stupid not to do this. Virtually, I changed nothing, and I've only improved.

Saul and Ellen: Light magic sucks, we have shit offense and if Clarine's in play, we're pretty much just occasional Restore staves for like 2 chapters. Honestly, it's similar to saying that you should promote Wrys before Mage Marich...

Ellen at level 12/1 has 13 AS, which is doubling consistently from the rest of the isles onward. She gets to that easier than Lou does to level 13. Saul is the same, except he has 14 speed at level 10/1. They have increased level speeds, while Lou's would drop. So they make up for "worse offense" with a continuous level lead, and doubling earlier in the game.

This is also ignoring the fact this might be a little low for them in chapter 11. There are the unlock staff, torch staff spam, barrier, Libro from chapter 7.

This also just seems like you're admitting that Lou does not get the first ring.

Not if you're playing efficiently.

I'm sorry, your argument seem to have vanished. Were you meaning something by this, or you just saying that like it makes your point valid?

And fail to kill the Nomadic Trooper while Lugh has access to Forblaze which gives him the ATK needed to kill the Trooper in the time Klein has failed to do so. The Brave Bow could also be gone by then.

Ok, 1 enemy type, you want a medal? He's still gonna get murdered. In fact, the spell weighs him down by 1, he's weighed down to 16. Nomad Troopers with bows have 21 mt or 24 with a steel sword, and can have 20 AS. 24-8x2=32>30, Lou just got ORKOd.

Then comes the later chapters like C21. Taking on multiple Wyverns on a mountain or forest with Aircalibur (easily killing them) >>>> Killing one at a time.

Lou at 20/10 has 56 avoid, compared to Wyvern Lords with their 113 hit. 57 hit. 40 mt to his 9 Def and 34 Hp is 31 damage. Reg wyverns can take that out in the next shot, and they have 93 hit. Granted that's 37 hit, but for when the shot is going to kill you, that's a risk I might not take. The entire map is not forest and mountain, and if you're suggesting plopping him somwhere to be a distraction, I could do that with generally anyone else and still be distracting them. 20/10 Ward has 40 avoid, +10 due to WTA. I plop him on a mountain, I get generally the same results. I don't have to kill to be a distraction.

Out in the open, he's sort of at risk, as great as aircaliburing something is, like a Wyvern Lord, but 20/10 Klein could do the same with a Brave Bow. Ok, so he'd need an energy ring, but Lou sort of uhhh ya know...needs a guiding ring.

A Clarine. When Rutger's around, there's no reason Klein should take A Clarine. What would you rather have, a slightly more defensive Sniper, or your SM with more crit and avoid? This is not a matter of what helps Clarine more (since all she would want is avoid and atk, both give avoid and neither atk), it's a matter of who gets more out of it and does more with it.

You mean 5 more crit and avoid? You honestly think Rutger's gonna cry over that? I will say this, with a B, all that happened was he became similar to Lance without Roy support. That bit was hasty, I'll admit, but he's not exactly crying over it. But that's the point, Rutger doesn't change much at all, while Klein is better in Sacae, which is generally the time it would kick in if not sooner. Besides, SOMEONE has to compensate for Deick now being taken.

His bigger problem is not having a reasonable A. That gimps him out of much needed avoid, especially in Bern. It's to the point where he might have to depend on Lancereavers. 20/10 Rutger with only a B Clarine has not enough avoid to bring Wyvern Lords below 50, maybe even 60. This means he has to resort ot a lancereaver, which would give him 27 mt. He would basically need to land a double crit on anything to kill it, and the 47 chance isn't looking as hot as it used to.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Jackal... Forest avoid bonus is 20, not 10... this ain't FESD damn it.

I'll return to this some other time, too lazy to go into detail right now.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Vergil

[grandjackal]

ACK! Uhhh....

My point still stands!...Sorta.

[Florete]

You mean 5 more crit and avoid? You honestly think Rutger's gonna cry over that? I will say this, with a B, all that happened was he became similar to Lance without Roy support. That bit was hasty, I'll admit, but he's not exactly crying over it. But that's the point, Rutger doesn't change much at all, while Klein is better in Sacae, which is generally the time it would kick in if not sooner. Besides, SOMEONE has to compensate for Deick now being taken.

Klein is better for what, 3 maps? Maps we might not even go to? While Rutger is better as long as he exists. 5 avoid and crit isn't nothing, you know. Stack it with a possible B Dieck (Note the possible) and that becomes 15 more crit and avoid.

And I don't think 1 Def is going to help Klein a whole lot in Sacae. And what if Tate is in play? She's an even better A for him. Hell, Klein being at the bottom of Upper Mid means he isn't all that likely to be in play himself to even compete with Rutger. Clarine can get away just fine with A Rutger/B Lance/Dieck.

In the end, Rutger getting A Clarine over Klein is not hyping Rutger, it's simply efficiency. Remember why Mia gets Ike in FE10? Because she gets the biggest durability increase from it. Not because we all like her and think it sounds cool. It's simply efficient to do so, and I see the word "Efficiency" in this topic's title. So tell me again, what actually sounds like a better idea: Having a Sniper with +1 Def and +5 avoid, or a Swordmaster with +5 avoid and +5 crit?

(Hell, I could argue the extra crit Rutger gives Clarine makes her want him more anyway, since we all know she has offensive problems and neither give +atk anyway).

His bigger problem is not having a reasonable A. That gimps him out of much needed avoid, especially in Bern.

Wtf? First you were saying he wouldn't cry over it, now it's "much needed?" Consistency, please.

Also, I hate how you constantly sandbag by talking like he practically can't even get Dieck, or even at least something with Fir. Remember when I was arguing Fir and we agreed she couldn't get Rutger because he was already full? Where is that now? And look at Dieck's other partners. All are at least two full tiers below Rutger. And Dieck can still go A with one of them since Rutger only wants B. You honestly gonna tell me it's likely that two of Wade, Lott, and Thany (leaving out Clarine because she's obviously full, and Klein because it's probably slower than Rutger anyway) will be in play and will need to support him? Wade is already unlikely to be in play, so that just leaves Thany and Lott, and Thany is only as high as she is because of flight and early promotion. Dieck support helps, but it's not the end of it for her. As for Lott, yeah, the support is cool and fast, but it isn't that much better either. He gets +1 atk and +2 Def from Lott in comparison to Rutger, and Rutger gives him +8 crit and Hit. I can't really say it's better, but it isn't a bad tradeoff at all. He still gets the same avoid as well.

And if for some strange reason he still can't get a B with Dieck, he can at least nab an eventual C with Fir, and possibly B near the end, right (By the time he really needs it I'm sure it can make it)? You're not going to tell me she's now full with Bartre/Noah/Shin, are you? Or that she's not in play but all of Dieck's and Clarine's partners are?