RNG/Arena Abuse Debate

[chickenman]

So here is the long overdue RNG/Arena Abuse Debate Thread.

Is it cheating or comparable to hacking? Then state your reason why.

Posts such as, "I think it is (or is not) cheating." are not allowed.You must give a good reason why it is.

No flaming, and your post must be relevant to the topic.

Edited March 19, 2009 by chickenman

[Rodykitty]

No. I fully encourage RNG abuse.

[dondon151]

Play to win.

[Nestling]

I'm perfectly OK with it, since you're getting instant gratification. You're working hard to get a result that you want, and that hard work (Sometimes about 100+ hours of work) shouldn't just be taken as "Oh, you cheated!"

It's an exploit in the game. If it's in the game, availible for use, by all means, use it. It's just like power ups in Mario Kart. If you get a lighting bolt and you fall off that one mushroom when that happens, that's not cheating. It was put in the game, and, without editing files, you are free to do whatever you legitly want to do with it.

[Rakath]

Is resetting because a character you needed died abusive: Yes, but nobody cares, we all do it.

Is Arena abuse for Gold to forge unbelievably powerful weapons abusive: Of course it is. If you max out the forging on a Brave Weapon you're spending more money on the weapon than there is available Gold in the GAME without Arenas.

Is resetting to try again at crappy Level Ups abusive: Sure it is! Nobody expected you to take it so seriously.

Are people going to stop doing these things to make Wi-Fi teams: I should hope not! I feel bad when I beat down a team without a proper weapon set or stat set. I mean, beating a team where there's every chance they could destroy your party in a turn is WAY more fun than slaughtering weak and innocent Dragonkin. >.>

[chickenman]

I hope you first two guys are just trying to annoy me...

REASONS people! We need REASONS!

"All you need is one good Reason."

Edited March 19, 2009 by chickenman

[Nestling]

Pretty much, just for clarification, one time, I was playing FE6, and my Dorothy got a point of skill. Someone died, and I came back to my last save state, I moved someone to a different spot, and I used Dorothy again, and she got HP, Skill, Speed, Luck and Defense. Is that considered abuse? It was non-intentional, but I just want to make sure so I don't sound like a hypocrite.

[Rodykitty]

REASONS people! We need REASONS!

Is playing to win not a good enough reason?

[Rakath]

It's very simple: You're not using a cheat device.

That's all there is. Anything without a cheat device is within the game's scope.

Arena Abuse, RNG Abuse, Resetting for cast... none of these are things your suppose to do in the game. But none of these things are directly stopped either. The game doesn't prevent them, nor does it condone them. It's a piece of technology.

Now then, this doesn't mean they aren't abusive as all things, they are. All of it. But honestly, complaining about RNG abuse and Arena abuse is like complaining "You're better at Basketball than me because you spend time working out and staying in practice!" It's a little silly.

[chickenman]

Pretty much, just for clarification, one time, I was playing FE6, and my Dorothy got a point of skill. Someone died, and I came back to my last save state, I moved someone to a different spot, and I used Dorothy again, and she got HP, Skill, Speed, Luck and Defense. Is that considered abuse? It was non-intentional, but I just want to make sure so I don't sound like a hypocrite.

In a way, yes it was. But sometimes it happens that way. If you don't RNG abuse all the time, I wouldn't call you a hypocrite.

[chickenman]

It's very simple: You're not using a cheat device.

That's all there is. Anything without a cheat device is within the game's scope.

Arena Abuse, RNG Abuse, Resetting for cast... none of these are things your suppose to do in the game. But none of these things are directly stopped either. The game doesn't prevent them, nor does it condone them. It's a piece of technology.

Now then, this doesn't mean they aren't abusive as all things, they are. All of it. But honestly, complaining about RNG abuse and Arena abuse is like complaining "You're better at Basketball than me because you spend time working out and staying in practice!" It's a little silly.

Honestly, that is the best way I have ever heard it described. But I'm more of a hockey guy...

[Sylvan]

Well on single player, RNG abuse is not cheating IMO. Because single player you are in effect competing against yourself, so what method you use does not matter to how you clear the game.

On Wifi, RNG abuse should be considered the same as hacking. Simply because if you come across two people, both with Maxed stats on all units, it's impossible to differentiate who is or isn't the hacker.

Now I won't say if RNG abuse is considered Cheating. Because cheating hasn't been defined. But under wiki's definition of cheating in video games:

"Cheating in video games involves a player of a video game creating an advantage beyond the bounds of normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier."

Then, yes RNG abuse does fall under this category. Because "gameplay" is defined as:

"Gameplay includes all player experiences during the interaction with game systems, especially formal games."

Since the game systems cannot be functioning when the game is off (well at least in FE, some games like TWEWY give you stuff for having the game off, but this is a separate issue.) Then switching the game off to obtain a higher than average level on a character is a form of cheating.

So, under that definition, RNG abuse is cheating. But different people have different definitions.

The result from RNG abuse is the same as a hacked result. Both characters are separate from "normal" characters, since neither RNG or Hacked people stay within possible character averages. This means that both RNG abuse and Hacking are the same form of illegitimate online play. Since the method can't be derived from the end result, the method used to create the characters should not be taken into account, since this falls under Single Player ethics, not Multi Player ethics.

There is no way to prove by looking at a team, to tell if that person is or isn't using a cheat device. So trying to differentiate teams based on this device is not a good way of telling. Single player, sure. Then it's easy. But not for multiplayer.

[Rodykitty]

"Cheating in video games involves a player of a video game creating an advantage beyond the bounds of normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier."

Then, yes RNG abuse does fall under this category. Because "gameplay" is defined as:

"Gameplay includes all player experiences during the interaction with game systems, especially formal games."

RNG abuse is within the bounds of normal gameplay.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

I find the word cheating rather humorous and I scoff at it in a FE game

[Sylvan]

RNG abuse is within the bounds of normal gameplay.

Turning the game off is not a gameplay feature. It signifies the end of play. So any such method of altering the gameplay based off turning the game off, cannot be part of the gameplay itself. You have to be playing the game for it to count as gameplay. If the game says "turn me off now" then it's game play (i.e. game over screens signify the end of play.) but turning it off at random, is not gameplay. The game cannot tell when you have turned it off, so you can exploit this fact to RNG abuse, but this is not part of the gameplay.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Sylvan

[Rodykitty]

I still do not believe that it should not be done, on the very grounds that anybody can do so, and that what happens within a battle is more important than what happens outside.

Schematics are not going to change that it is fair game.

[Rakath]

You haven't thought through the numbers have you?

To RNG farm 1 stat isn't that hard. The chances of any given level up giving you that stat are the growth rate itself. Every time you don't gain in that stat you reset and try again. So with the example in the previous thread: Merric/Cavalier/Def (35%) Which isn't all that bad. 35 is a little over a third. So 2/3 of the time you're resetting.

To RNG farm TWO stats is trickier. Let's make Catria a Mage.

*Glances over at Catria in nifty robes* See, Mage.

She has a Strength Growth of 25% (35 - 10) and a Magic Growth of 30 (0 + 30).

Now, to farm both stats you need to get both to gain, or reset. If we just call 30 1/3, you're looking at resetting 11/12ths of the time. Now, I'm not sure WHY I'm farming both offense stats. Let's say I plan to make her a Swordmaster with a Levin Sword.

By the way, if someone did go to ALL the trouble to farm this with Cap Strength/Magic (which would TAKE TIME, as Sage Catria would only gain Str/Mag together 1/25 of the time). So if the plan is to make her a Levin Swordmaster, she only needs to get to 23 Magic as a Sage.

Since only 1 in 12 Level ups are viable before promotion. For her first 15 level ups you have tossed out 180 Level ups (or so) to get her to 17 Strength 19 Magic at LV20 (Mage). To continue this farming, you promote her (20 Strength 20 Magic - Sage) You can't get more Strength right now, so let's get the last 3 Magic points, you still have to toss out 4/5 of your level up chances So now to get her to LV4 you've wasted 192 Level Ups to reset (ON ONE CHARACTER). You make her a Swordmaster and keep this going farming Level Ups for Strength (45, so you throw out about half your Level Ups) for two levels (194)...

And you've got NO CHANCE IN HELL of capping her Defense or Resist.

Numbers don't lie, to cap every stat on every character would take more playtime than is possible right now.

[Sylvan]

But that's assuming you max both MAG and STR. More often than not, not even hackers do this. It's common to see hacked teams with all maxed stats bar MAG and RES. (you can tell they are hacked from, 99/X durability)

So from that team, assuming all maxed bar MAG and RES, (on a normal non-magic unit) It would still be impossible to construct a WiFi team of 5 such units. Even using the best units in the game, in their best classes, and all the stat boosts on them.

However, such a team is easily possible under RNG abuse.

Having >18 DEF on a swordmaster is trouble enough for a normal team. But is a simple feat for an RNG abused team.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Sylvan

[Rodykitty]

However, such a team is easily possible under RNG abuse.

Okay then.

Though whether or not it's possible to cap everything is beside the point. The point is that RNG abuse should be considered legit, because we can't stop people from doing it, and guess what? We can RNG abuse to fight RNG abuse, so that's perfectly fair game.

Will it take a long time? Yes, if you prefer to try and outskill the other team, that is perfectly okay, but for those that want to use a combination of skill & non-gimped stats, we have absolutely NO FREAKING RIGHT to call these people hackers or cheaters.

[Rakath]

Yes, but our RNG abuser didn't have all capped did he?

HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

HP: 55 - Entirely Reasonable for Merric if he was a Cavalier for 17 Level Ups.

Strength: 06 - With a 15% Growth for 18 levels, again, reasonable.

Magic: 25 - Note: This is with all 5 Spirit dusts, so its 15, two below Merric's Average, which is a bit high for all the levels he was a Cavalier, but reasonable.

Skill: 28 - Capped? What? Oh right Cavalier for most of his Pre-promote. This isn't surprising.

Speed: 25 - Merric can cap his speed easily enough, my Merric has 3 different times without abuse.

Luck: 19 - Eh... not great, not bad, nothing to really write about.

Def: 20 - Given Merric actually has a really GOOD Def Growth this shouldn't be so surprising to anyone. It's only brought down by being a class that has a Negative Def Growth. Low Cap Even accounting for how Reclassing would effect the stat this is not that harsh.

Res: 18 - Eh... little high, probably has some Talismans in it.

His Merric capped Skill, Speed, and Def. Three stats.

He couldn't even get a capped Magic with Merric due to how much time was spent getting that DEF score.

That's not 'every stat' or even 'every stat but 2' that's 'three stats' Some units cap 3 Stats in their sleep.

When a unit is hacked (99 Use on weapons, 16+ Movement, Caps in most/all stats) There is usually more than one clue. Like 99 Use on weapons or the Forged a Gradivus with insane hit. Stats aren't a good cue unless what you're looking for is actually impossible to get in game.

[Sylvan]

Let me reply to this in parts:

Okay then.

Though whether or not it's possible to cap everything is beside the point. The point is that RNG abuse should be considered legit, because we can't stop people from doing it,

We can't stop hackers, and they aren't legit. So this argument doesn't make RNG abusers legit.

and guess what? We can RNG abuse to fight RNG abuse, so that's perfectly fair game.

We can use hacks to fight hacks. Doesn't stop people wanting no hacks at all. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it has to be done. Simply saying "it's fair to fight RNG with RNG" means about as much as saying "everyone use Jeigan for a fair fight". Yes, it would be more fair. But not logical.

Will it take a long time? Yes,

Unless you hacked, and nobody can tell the difference.

if you prefer to try and outskill the other team, that is perfectly okay, but for those that want to use a combination of skill & non-gimped stats, we have absolutely NO FREAKING RIGHT to call these people hackers or cheaters.

If you look at the definition of cheating, then I have every right to do so. If you use a different definition, post it and then I can change my view. But as it stands, I have a pretty clear-cut way of determining, on wifi, who is or is not a legit team. And to me, legit does not factor in any single player aspects. Only the end result. You could hack, and give your character all average stats. I would call you legit, unless there was something obviously wrong (99 durability, etc)

The fact is, that there are more Hackers on WiFi than there are RNG abusers. MOST of them are WORSE than RNG abusers. (their teams are not as good). But out of the max-ed stat people online, I can easily say 90% of them are hackers. Even if RNG is considered legit. Then, by default, your encouraging people to hack. (the logic being, 10% of maxed stats are RNG, since the difference is not obvious, the other90% must be assumed to be RNG, else risk calling RNG hacking.)

If you want more hackers online, then support RNG abuse. If you want less hackers online, don't support RNG abuse.

His Merric capped Skill, Speed, and Def. Three stats.

And so did his shiida, frey, catria, sedgar. . . . . Five units. All max DEF. I can only manage 2 units with max DEF, out of these 2 only 1 has max speed. And I have one of the best teams out there.

That's not 'every stat' or even 'every stat but 2' that's 'three stats' Some units cap 3 Stats in their sleep.

Frey, Shiida and Merric will never cap DEF. And certainly not while they are sleeping.

When a unit is hacked (99 Use on weapons, 16+ Movement, Caps in most/all stats) There is usually more than one clue. Like 99 Use on weapons or the Forged a Gradivus with insane hit. Stats aren't a good cue unless what you're looking for is actually impossible to get in game.

99 durability is a sure way of saying if a team is hacked. Unfortunately, most people I've seen with 99 durability have teams worse than RNG abused teams. Posting someone for having 99 durability (an advantage that means nothing on the 10 turns in WiFi) while not posting another person for having all units with max DEF, is only encouraging Hackers. It will make them want to have more like RNG-abused teams. So all they have to do is keep their current team, turn off the 99 durability hack, and presto-changeo, their units are now legit.

It's this "gap" in the rules that allows hackers to get off without being reported. If people stuck to the averages, then WiFi would be much more balanced, and this kind of discussions wouldn't need to take place. But the fact is, there are hackers out there. And the RNG abusers, although they are trying to do the right thing, are really just giving hackers an excuse to get away with more hacking.

I don't have anything against RNG abuse. It's hacking I have the problem with. But since both methods end up with the same result, either hackers need to be called legit. Or RNG abusers need to be called illegit. I dare say, sorry to the RNG abusers, but really, most RNG abused team are the minority. Rather than rewarding 90% of hackers, to support the 10% or RNG abusers, we should punish the 10% of RNG abusers, to catch the 90% of hackers.

[Rodykitty]

So basically, you cannot stand to see people with ridiculously high stats, even if people don't hack to get these stats. You want people to purposely hold back just so they won't look like a hacker. This is a scrub mentality.

We can use hacks to fight hacks.

Not every body has an action replay, but everybody can RNG abuse. That is the key difference. Everybody has the ability to have amazing stats if they work for it.

[Rakath]

Merric has THE HIGHEST DEF GROWTH OF ANY FINESSE CLASS UNIT. If Merric, Gordin, and Minerva can't get exceptional Def in this game, then nobody can. Especially when its a low cap like 20.

Since I don't know what classes the other units you listed were in during your match, its hard to determine how Difficult their Def would be, were they Paladins with a cap of 30, or Swordmasters with a cap of 22. It kind of makes a difference.

His other caps also make a difference, but so far he seems to be sacrificing offense for Def stat. You keep bringing up his DEF stat but fail to mention how many of his units capped Strength.

[Taho]

The arenas are in the game to be used. Whether you do 6 fights, gain 2 levels and earn 6000 gold or whether you do 600 fights, gain 20 levels with 10 different characters and earn 600 000 gold is entirely up to you. It's totally legit.

About RNG abuse. Sylvan's right about the definition, I believe. It is kind of like cheating, but the problem is how can you tell luck from RNG abuse? My Athena is like 2 or 3 points ahead of average in STR. Abel is even worse, he's been STR, SKL and SPD blessed. He'll cap STR for sure (22 STR so far and he's only lv 20/6) and I didn't abuse the RNG once with him, nor with Athena (I kept all my RNG abuse for Shiida, and I won't use her on wifi ;) ). And I'm telling you, it would really p*ss me off if people called me a cheat just because I got lucky.

Now hackers suck, I mean they really are pathetic. But since you can't know for sure whether someone's RNG abusing or just lucky, you shouldn't blame people just for having good stats. (of course there's a limit : a character with like 5 or 6 stats capped is not natural :P )

[Blacknight9]

Ok peopel

you people who claim it is int he game and brwl rememberr this

MK is in the game and farily cheap(so is marth if your pro at spacing) so please don't be a hypocrit if you hat MK

i think RNg shou be allowed in tourrnies were players agreee on i