RNG/Arena Abuse Debate

[Orgg]

Now as far as RNG abusing goes, I am trying to understand if you are against all stats being capped or just the main ones for whatever class it happens to be. If it is all stats then I can say that, yes it is hard to differentiate between hacked and RNG (if that's all they hacked), but if it is the latter, ie.e STR but not MAG capped along with most othe stats, then I'm not so sure.

Depending on the classes I pick for whatever team I decide to try (I arena leveled a lot of them then painstakingly leveled Elice) using the stat boosters I can cap out most of my stats with RES and only one offensive stat being the exceptions. Maybe luck on 2 of them.

I don't mind going up against teams with max stats in all areas, it's the teams that all characters have Imhullu, or 99/60 HP, max move, etc that piss me off. That's when I pull out my goof off teams, i.e. a swordmaster merric with horrible stats with a levin, that way at least I am getting a laugh while getting blasted by non-hacked teams since they only come out to play when I'm on those.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Orgg

[Zath of the Sword]

what i have noticed on hackers that help you tell them form RGN abuse is that there units are not lvl 20 thus there high stats are impossible also if magic is capped for a phyical user along with everything else. and on RGN ABUSE is that its called ABUSE for a reason no its not cheating but if you win its not a win. Fire emblem is a stratagy game RGN abusers make it not stratgy so i dont think they have really beat me if they win with an RGN abused team. this extends to weapons to if you cant lose wahts the point in playing you havent won if its the only possible outcome.

[NoNameAtAll]

RNG Abuse ain't hacking. For one thing, it's much harder to do. Hacking can make crappy characters good. Maxed out Lorenz anyone? Or Berserker!Etzel?

Meanwhile, RNG Abuse also takes a shit ton of time.

Lastly, RNG Abuse doesn't cause one to "magically" get an Imhullu in one's inventory.

[Meteor]

if magic is capped for a phyical user along with everything else.

It's possible to cap everything legitimately. This is incredibly unlikely for all five characters but possible for a few members of a team to be maxed.

Fire emblem is a stratagy game RGN abusers make it not stratgy

It only removes strategy when a single team is abused.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Meteor

[luigi bros]

Arena abuse is definately not cheating. Without it online would be very differant. I don't like RNG abused teams but it's not cheating. Only hackers are cheaters in my opinion.

[Meteor]

It goes without saying that hackers are cheaters.

[luigi bros]

It goes without saying that hackers are cheaters.

I know. I just wanted to say that those are the only people I call cheaters.

[Deliriyum]

Arena Abuse for Levels: not cheating, it is a viable resource the game provides for you.

Arena Abuse for gold: not cheating, I think this is what the arena was intended for.

RNG Abuse: Yes....ITS A RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR, not a slot machine. You don't play until you win a million dollars

[Meteor]

You would if you got your money back every time you lost.

[mizz]

I don't necessarily agree with rng abuse but I wouldn't call it cheating, just as long as it doesn't get carried away

[Alacalibur]

Neither of them are cheating. If they put Saves and Arenas in, they probably knew it would be (Ab)used. If they knew that and did not want it, they would have cut the features, or changed them.

[Uiru]

ITT: Bad players unwilling to put effort into team building and thus seeking to downplay skill and make luck more relevant as a direct result. I use RNG abuse and Dazzle to suppress luck as far as possible. I win and lose by skill, and preparation is half the battle.

RNG abuse can be done by anyone and is actually fairly simple to do. Most of you are simply afraid of the commitment. It is a process, yes, but it can be done and to even compare it to hacking is the height of all ignorance, bordering on insulting as a matter of fact.

Hackers who "only" hack max stats for themselves (analogous to a good RNG abused team) are still cheating because they do in ten minutes what I do in a month. Obviously most of that time is spent waiting for Braves but from deciding "my team needs my Falco to become a Draco" to getting back online takes four weeks. And, furthermore, these hackers are becoming the minority. Boosted/max Move and Imhullu are prevalent, among other nonsense like Torches and boosted range/invisibility. This is what cheating looks like- proper preparation cannot make you totally invincible.

Furthermore, I'd rather face a hacker who only gives himself max stats than the army of scrubs my win record is clogged with. (Then again, hackers tend to be terrible players, so I'm screwed either way.) Non-RNG abused teams are an utter waste of time in a majority of cases. If I see one more Marth, hacked or otherwise, I may stop playing entirely. People go online with units with single digit stats! Why?

And what the hell is the alternative? Let the RNG decide who has superior units? That's fair! This is a game where one point of Speed or one point of Def makes the difference between getting killed by two units or by one, and that's an enormous difference. Just think about how long it would take for people to play through the game multiple times, looking for five units who get smiled on. Of course, then you're still not arena abusing like you should and you're still at an enormous disadvantage. If you want to play Gimp Mode, find other like-minded individuals and play your own variant. Don't shit on the rest of us (me?) for being willing to put effort into things. We (I) don't want to waste our (my) time slaughtering your team anyway. See my Caeda and surrender.

You wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight. Learn how to get your units' Def stats up and quit whining. You don't want people to use non-capped units, you want people to use units with garbage stats like what you got stuck with so you have a chance in hell of winning! To complain about RNG abuse and/or arena abuse is ignorance and cowardice, nothing more.

Or you could explain what the just about perfect number of chapter saves, in just about the perfect number of chapters are for. If you didn't immediately make the connection between chapter saves and rerolling stats, maybe this isn't the right game for you.

~Uiru

[Sylvan]

You do know that it is possible to get good teams without RNG abuse?

Both my Sylvan and TABAZ!!!!! teams were made without RNG abuse. And as far as I know, they are among the top teams out there.

You seem to be assuming there is a big massive gap between RNG abused teams and non. But there isn't. Most RNG abusers are the same people that think Barst makes a good berserker, when he is probably one of the worst berserkers.

RNG abuse doesn't increase skill of WiFi battles. It reduces it. By a lot. I probably could write a lot here. But I'm not going to. I've already made my stance clear over the last few months. Mostly RNG abuse is an excuse used by hackers (35% of RNG abusers have been proven to have used hacks on their so called legit teams or 7/20 whichever stat you want to use) You don't need RNG abuse to fight well online. My Sylvan and Tabaz teams are plenty proof of that.

[Meteor]

RNG abuse doesn't increase skill of WiFi battles. It reduces it.

I would argue that it does neither. It removes the luck factor which may seem to change the skill level.

Mostly RNG abuse is an excuse used by hackers (35% of RNG abusers have been proven to have used hacks on their so called legit teams or 7/20 whichever stat you want to use)

From where was this statistic retrieved?

You don't need RNG abuse to fight well online. My Sylvan and Tabaz teams are plenty proof of that.

Strategy is still king and no amount of RNG abuse can change that.

[Sylvan]

I would argue that it does neither. It removes the luck factor which may seem to change the skill level.

These are the three main reasons:

People spend longer making teams, and less time playing WiFi. Without actually playing battles, people don't get experience. Which reduces skill.

People who loose generally are quicker to attribute it to their unit's stats, and think of how to re-create a team to compensate for this, rather than learning how to use their team to 100% efficiency.

At the top level of RNG abuse, the player who scouts first will always win. Usually RNG abused teams are not actually made to the top-level since the people that make them have misconceptions about what a good WiFi team should have. In doing so they introduce flaws into a team, that RNG doesn't help to fix. This reduces skill greatly, since a flip of the coin is about equivalent skill-wise.

From where was this statistic retrieved?

My FC list. Currently I have about 55 people on my list, from a very numerous list of places. 20 of which used extreme RNG abused teams, 7 of these I have round to be hacking (either they admit it, or I have found out by observation) The rest of the 13 I take their word for it that they are playing fair. Although the real number could be higher.

Strategy is still king and no amount of RNG abuse can change that.

Not true. Strategy only matters up till teams are made without weaknesses. (a weakness can be a sage, a horseman without apotrope, any unit that can be killed 1-1) Then the level of strategy falls sharply. I can draw a graph of it if you want.

[Meteor]

People spend longer making teams, and less time playing WiFi. Without actually playing battles, people don't get experience. Which reduces skill.

Experience and skill are two different things. Correlation does not imply causation.

People who lose generally are quicker to attribute it to their unit's stats, and think of how to re-create a team to compensate for this, rather than learning how to use their team to 100% efficiency.

And after they have a team with superior stats yet still lose, they will eventually understand that their skill is preventing them from winning. Sure it might take longer, but in the end it makes no difference.

At the top level of RNG abuse, the player who scouts first will always win.

And how is this untrue in the absence of RNG abusing?

Usually RNG abused teams are not actually made to the top-level since the people that make them have misconceptions about what a good WiFi team should have.

(See above question)

Not true. Strategy only matters up till teams are made without weaknesses. (a weakness can be a sage, a horseman without apotrope, any unit that can be killed 1-1) Then the level of strategy falls sharply. I can draw a graph of it if you want.

Weaknesses are the price some units pay for advantages. There is skill in weighing the benefits.

Sages trade the possibility of dying in a single round for high damage, healing, and warping abilities.

Horsemen trade the possibility of dying instantly for high movement and the ability to hit close and long range with brave weapons.

These things are present regardless of RNG abuse.

[quanchino]

One of the main reasons I stopped playing on random battle is not because RNG abused teams or hackers but because of too many people having no clue how to play the game. So often, I felt like I'm just wasting my time playing against people who doesn't even bother to ice a competitive team.

[Sylvan]

Experience and skill are two different things. Correlation does not imply causation.

ok, so tell me. How does someone get skill without playing games? Experience causes skill. Sure, it's arguable as to how much experience is needed, someone may pick up things faster than someone else. But none the less, skill can only be gotten with experience.

And after they have a team with superior stats yet still lose, they will eventually understand that their skill is preventing them from winning. Sure it might take longer, but in the end it makes no difference.

That's my point. By RNG abusing, it takes longer for skill to develop, since more focus is put onto their teams. Only in the long run does skill develop.

And how is this untrue in the absence of RNG abusing?

People have units that can be killed 1-1. This is what keep the game reliant on skill. Most RNG abusers think it is necessary to have a sage for example, when in face in an extreme RNG abused team, a sage is a liability more than an asset.

(See above question)

Weaknesses are the price some units pay for advantages. There is skill in weighing the benefits.

Sages trade the possibility of dying in a single round for high damage, healing, and warping abilities.

Horsemen trade the possibility of dying instantly for high movement and the ability to hit close and long range with brave weapons.

These things are present regardless of RNG abuse.

RNG abused teams can pick and choose from (basically) any class, and any character. Non RNG abused cannot. For example, without RNG abusing, getting 2 sages to 30 mag is basically impossible. Getting 3 horsemen with good stats is very difficult, and 30 def paladins are extremely rare. This means, that getting 4 combat units is hard, so to balance a team it is good to use a Sage, who adds to the team, without draining stat boosting resources. However, with RNG abuse, stats are so much better that it becomes possible to form a team of basically 5 of any class and get good stats. People choose sages because they see non-RNG abused people use them and think they are necessary. The fact is, RNG abusers choose to introduce weaknesses into their teams. Where as, non RNG abusers are forced to have weaknesses in them. The basic principal is, the only reason I can beat RNG abused teams, with my non-RNG abused teams, is because the people making the RNG abused teams are making flawed teams from the get-go. This might sound harsh but it's true.

[Quasar]

I have spent a month grinding my characters in order to have fun online and therefore you should too.

Nice logic. If you really need to have RNG abused characters you might as well save your own time and hack them. There's virtually no difference except that you saved your own time.

Bottom line is I see nothing wrong with it. If you want the edge in battles you can get it. If you get raped by someone of similiar skill that has RNG abused characters, tough luck. Get them yourself too then, it's not like you can't.

[cheezperson]

If you really need to have RNG abused characters you might as well save your own time and hack them.

Don't encourage hacking, there's already enough cheaters roaming around.

[Quasar]

Don't encourage hacking, there's already enough cheaters roaming around.

It was not my intention to do so, yet I stand by with what I said.

[Quintessence]

In recent times I had never known about RNG abuse/manipulation and that stuff but misteriously I always do it, starting with the shift+f1 in fe roms, but mostly in Path of Radiance, but now that I know what does it mean I can tell that it's totally official, if the game unconsciously or consciously gives us this privilege it's because it DO knows that it's absolutely lawful. I always RNG and most of it Arena Abuse. I like perfection and things well done so I train my characters at the arena at lv. 20; in fact, at chapter 10 I have most of my characters promoted in level 20.

But the thing is, that it's not cheating or hacking; it's only a way to play, that's all.