FE9 Tier List

[Vykan12]

There’s a nice Oscar vs Kieran debate going on at GF, so I’ll post it here.

Why is Oscar > Kieran? Neither are ever dying, and Kieran has more att, and also wins spd when it actually matters (before they can go "lolKWabuse").

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Neither are ever dying

Kieran doesn't seem especially invincible without an Oscar support. Oscar doesn't rely on Kieran to the same extent.

Kieran has more att, and also wins spd when it actually matters

If Oscar is Level 14 when Kieran joins, which seems reasonable, they have equal Spd... unless they go for ranged weapons, in which case Oscar wins AS by 1, or Steel, in which case Oscar wins AS by 2. Kieran does win Atk by 1, but loses Hit by 8, Def by 2, HP by 2, and Avo by 20 when Ike is included. Oscar is clearly better here.

Oscar promotes first and has a notable victory window there, too. I'm also inclined to say he has a bit of a weaponry advantage since he reasonable gets proficient in two weapons whereas Kieran starts with Iron in whatever his second weapon is, which sucks, but I could see the room for argument there.

But basically, Oscar wins because

(a) he's better when Kieran joins, before both become completely ridiculous, and

(B) his supports are more essential to the team. Ike and Kieran both suffer notably without Oscar. Removing Kieran makes... Marcia suffer? But not as much. Oscar barely cares because he gets Tanith anyway, just a little later (but it's an even more effective support and Tanith likes it).

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Kieran doesn't seem especially invincible without an Oscar support. Oscar doesn't rely on Kieran to the same extent.

They are each other's best support (they match each other's move, unlike Ike x Oscar), so I don't see how that matters.

Kieran is like 7HKO'd or something ridiculous when promotion comes along and he can get Sol. He's pretty durable without Oscar support anyway.

If Oscar is Level 14 when Kieran joins, which seems reasonable,

That would be 11 levels in ~7 chapters (we're probably doing stealth in ch 10), and they're very short chapters.

I counted roughly 150 enemies in chapters 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, and 9 (chapter 5 has no enemy count. I didn't count bosses). Let's just say you can kill off 25 enemies in chapter 5, so that brings up the enemy count to 175.

You get ~25 exp for killing an enemy the same level as you, so that would mean Oscar is getting about 25% of the kills. However, we have Ike/Boyd/Titania who all are very good and join in chapter 1 (which already makes 4), plus we have Gatrie/Shinon/Soren/Ilyana/Mia/Marcia around as possible candidates for the team who join later on (or if not they can simply help out and stuff), and even Lethe/Mordy as NPCs in chapter 9.

Even if we assume half the enemies 2-rounded so we get hit + kill exp (so those enemies produces 35 exp, which means the average enemy will produce 30 exp), Oscar would still more than 20% of the enemies. And this is assuming half the enemies are 2-rounded, which is doubtful because Titania/Boyd are killing off the tougher enemies, and this is lolFE9 with joke enemies.

Not only that, this is assuming we kill off every single enemy, which is unrealistic in chapters such as 6 (we're sending our team down one of the paths and the enemies on the other path we'll likely never face) or chapter 8 where we only have, what, 8 turns to fool around?

Oscar is more likely to be about level 12 than level 14, since level 12 would mean he's getting 30 kills, or ~17% (assuming half the enemies are 2-rounded so again, the average enemy produces 30 exp), which sounds more reasonable.

So redoing comparisons

Kieran with iron axe vs Oscar with iron lance. Kieran has ~2 att/1 AS. Loses hit by about 5. Loses HP by 1 and def by 1. Loses avoid by 15-20. However, Kieran is still frickin durable (30 HP/10 def wut, the only people who even come close to that other than Oscar are Titania/Lethe/Mordy/Brom). I'd rather side with Kieran's offense.

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(B) his supports are more essential to the team. Ike and Kieran both suffer notably without Oscar. Removing Kieran makes... Marcia suffer? But not as much. Oscar barely cares because he gets Tanith anyway, just a little later (but it's an even more effective support and Tanith likes it).

How would Ike care if he can't support Oscar? He has the most supports in the game and has several backup options. And Kieran "suffers notably"? he's already durable. The Oscar support just makes him lolinvincible, which is funny but not particularly important.

The only person Oscar is really helping with supports is Tanith, since she's pretty fragile without supports.

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I counted roughly 150 enemies in chapters 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, and 9 (chapter 5 has no enemy count. I didn't count bosses). Let's just say you can kill off 25 enemies in chapter 5, so that brings up the enemy count to 175.

Just checking, since I'm taking your word rather than looking up the numbers myself, but this includes reinforcements, correct? A few maps (8 and 9 come to mind) have quite a few.

Not only that, this is assuming we kill off every single enemy, which is unrealistic in chapters such as 6 (we're sending our team down one of the paths and the enemies on the other path we'll likely never face) or chapter 8 where we only have, what, 8 turns to fool around?

Interesting, I always clear out both paths in Chapter 6. Agreed on 8, but I usually only leave 2-3 enemies alive.

You also neglected to mention bosses. Assuming Oscar gets 2 of the 8 boss kills he has available, which seems reasonable enough offhand, that's +80 experience, not including and bonuses due to the fact that bosses are high levelled (promoted in the case of 3 of them).

Granted, on the flip side of things, enemies fall behind Oscar in levels as time goes on, so there's less than 25 per kill available. On the other hand, I do think 50% of enemies two-rounded is a bit of an underestimate? lolFE9 enemies, yes, but not that early in the game.

Checking my notes from the file I did which was intended to imitate a "fair" playthrough, I had Oscar at Level 16 and Kieran at Level 14 to start Blood Runs Red (this is after each had been given 1/11 of the BExp earned thus far in the game, including stealth). Oscar would not have gotten notably more kills than Ike, Boyd, or Titania, who were also used that playthrough, and I made use of Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Ilyana, Soren, and Rolf (lol), although of course I would have prioritised kills for the others when all else was equal.

17%

That sounds a bit low to me offhand. In Chapters 1, 2, and 6, Oscar is one of 4-5 PCs, so the number there should clearly be higher. In the other chapters it depends on how many PCs you are going to use permanently from this point in the game. If Soren or Mia or whoever is on the list then of course that 17% starts to seem more reasonable. If only Ike, Boyd, and Titania are on that list, though, then it seems surprising to me that each would only get 17% overall.

And then there's the possibility of Titania and maybe even Ike giving up some of their kills for reasons of overall party power.

However, Kieran is still frickin durable (30 HP/10 def wut

There are enemies with Atk in the high teens who can kill Kieran in four hits, as well as mages who kill in three (lol 1 res). Yeah, he's more durable than average, but he's far from invincible here, and further durability is a plus.

How would Ike care if he can't support Oscar?

+20-30 avo by Chapter 11/14 makes a big deal for Ike. His durability without it isn't really that special. All of Ike's other supports are much slower, give worse bonuses, and except for Titania and Reyson (who is much later) are with units who are less likely to be played. Additionally, speaking of those units, Soren (and Reyson) can't fearlessly join Ike on the frontlines, Lethe isn't worth deploying late, and Ranulf/Elincia take way too long to join.

And Kieran "suffers notably"? he's already durable.

See the above numbers, he's not really durable enough. I don't think he stops getting 4HKOed until he promotes, and he isn't exactly super-dodgy without the support, which means you will have to waste turns healing him once or twice a map. Yes, he's good without an Oscar support (above average in every area), but we can afford to have very high standards when discussing Top Tier units.

[Zkirsche]

I wanna push forward Largo again:

Might as well prompt some discussion.

I was thinking that Largo > Ranulf, and then I notice they're a tier apart, and not in that direction. Two dissimilar stat builds, offence vs. defence... let's take a look.

I'll give Ranulf 2 levels before Largo joins, and compare them then. Ranulf has a Demi Band or he faces transformation woes, so I'll equip him with that. Largo gets a Silver Axe.

Largo wins Atk by 6 and Crit by 15. Ranulf wins Def by 11 and Res by 5, loses HP by 4. Move by 2. Tied in AS. Largo can get extra punch with various other weapons, and attack at 2 range.

By endgame, I'd expect Ranulf to gain 5 more levels, and Largo 7 (37 kills each halves the level gap, so this works pretty well). After that, assuming Largo gets forged Silver at some point, Largo wins Atk by over 13. All other points of comparison change little if at all.

So the question is, which do we value more, offence or defence? Ranulf, like most laguz, is bad at the former. So bad I don't think he generally one-rounds much that isn't a mage or an unpromoted unit, and the latter stops appearing pretty quickly. He doesn't double anything really speedy (a problem Largo shares) and doesn't 2HKO anything remotely durable. Largo? The few enemies that survive him can be taken out by stronger weapons, often. I think Largo with forged Silver may even one-shot Swordmasters, though I'd have to look that up and Reikken's site is down at the moment for me.

On the other side of things, Largo is frequently taken out in 3 hits, whereas Ranulf needs something closer to 6. You can put Ranulf up front and let him tank and counter, chipping things to death. But then, if Ranulf chips four enemies, and Largo kills two, hasn't Largo had a better enemy phase anyway? Especially if you can direct the two enemies he doesn't interact with elsewhere.

I guess I feel that the game doesn't lack for other offensively challenged, tanky filler. Tauroneo, Haar, Geoffrey are all just as tanky as Ranulf, and two are more mobile. On the other hand, offence is harder to come by. Stefan comes close, and is more durable... but I think a bunch of Atk (Largo's base -1 from Stefan's cap, and he'll gain a lot) and range 2 trumps AS. Tanith has lower Atk than Stefan. Geoffrey is -4 Atk/-1 AS, though his growth admittedly is better. Calill is probably the only prepromo I'm willing to say has outright better offence than Largo (similar damage and AS, but always range 2) and hey, her durability is even lower (largely just due to HP), and she needs Rexbolt (one chapter) to match Forged Silver (as many chapters as the rest of the party allows).

And then, another concern is that Ranulf's utility tanks without the Demi Band, which he has to take away from someone else... maybe Muarim? Largo doesn't take much of anything away from anyone.

The two are very hard to compare. I just feel Largo is more likely to be called on for the niche he fills. He's nearly unmatched for lategame muscle, Ranulf has no muscle to speak of and certainly is matched for lategame tanking.

"Okay," I'm sure some of you are thinking. "But how about adding him into parties that aren't obsessed with prepromo filler?" Fair enough. Such well-raised parties generally have such crushing mobility and durability that they can easily protect Largo (while benefitting from his offence), and have no use for Ranulf's tanking, though I suppose they do appreciate his move. Still, eh, not sure this changes the overall picture.

Thoughts? Am I not doing Ranulf enough justice? Underestimating Largo's durability problems? Or is there another misranking here?

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I’d say there’s a lot to make out for Largo’s durability problems. Only being able to take 3 hits severely limits his offensive opportunities, especially if he takes a player phase counter, which would limit him to 2 enemies. The later maps simply have too many enemies for that to be acceptable.

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Durability? Who cares about defense? Largo kicks ass so fast that he doesn't even have time to take names, let alone get attacked.

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Killing as well as Boyd doesn't address Largo's durability problems. In fact, it amplifies them. Kill one enemy, and you free up a space for another to attack, and soon enough the proverbial glass cannon will shatter.

20/10 Boyd (A Mist, B Brom): 53 hp, 19 def, 14 res, 51 avo

20/7 Largo: 52 hp, 10 def, 3 res, 52 avo

If it weren't for Largo's massive hp, he'd be less durable than someone like Ilyana.

Also, Both Oscar's and Kieran's offenses and defenses are great the entire game, except that Oscar has more availabiltiy and builds up supports quicker. So I'd say that Oscar > Kieran.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

If you use Reyson, Ashnard is liekly to be killed in one turn due to Ike's crit.

Bastian can support makalov. I don't care about the others, I'm merely stating she's not that much better than him due to Bastian having utility. Makalov isn't immortal, and the bastian support makes him more durable.

This utility was already acknowledged. Don't forget that it is only a very small possibility and Makalov's MOV is an issue for the Bastian support.

[Zkirsche]

This utility was already acknowledged. Don't forget that it is only a very small possibility and Makalov's MOV is an issue for the Bastian support.

Canto helps the support, and it's quicker than Haar x Bastian.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Canto helps the support, and it's quicker than Haar x Bastian.

I think their A support for Mak kicks in at the same time actually and the C support for Mak x Haar is 1 chapter earlier plus Haar doesn't have the MOV issue.

[Vykan12]

Now for the Ike vs Boyd comparison that came up earlier.

Then, Ike is better with supports, check out his 'A' support times:

You have to consider B support times as well since sometimes there’s a huge jump from B to A, and sometimes there isn’t.

Ike A supports

Oscar: Chapter 11. 30 avo

Soren: Chapter 23. 1 atk, 22 avo

Titania: Chapter 26. 1 def, 15 avo

Ike B supports

Oscar: Chapter 8. 20 avo

Titania: Chapter 11. 1 def, 10 avo

Soren: Chapter 16. 1 atk, 15 avo

Boyd A supports

Titania: Chapter 20. 1 atk, 1 def

Brom: Chapter 22. 3 atk, 1 def

Mist: Chapter 26. 3 atk, 1 def

Boyd B supports

Titania: Chapter 15. 1 atk, 1 def

Mist: Chapter 19. 2 atk, 1 def

Brom: Chapter 19. 2 atk, 1 def

Looking at A supports, Ike’s only faster support is Oscar, while losing everywhere else in speed. For B, he wins outright.

It seems you have a point. Ike gives outgoing support benefits for ~4 more chapters.

5/0 Boyd with an Iron/Hand Axe: 32 HP, 17/16 atk, 6/3 spd, 6 def, 1 res

8/0 Ike with the regal/steel sword: 24 HP, 16/17 Atk, 11/8 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res

Wtf? Ike and Boyd join at the same level. You’re comparing them right after Boyd and Oscar have been gone for 2 chapters, which is when things are most ideal for Ike. How about we compare Boyd to Ike after him being stuck at lv 20/0 for a while is beginning to hurt him.

Oh and the regal sword doesn’t last forever and you’re not giving Boyd a steel axe (trading AS for atk is beneficial to him in this case), so you’re not giving Boyd’s atk lead any due credit. Now watch what happens when Boyd gets +5 atk from supports while Ike gets none.

Then, the number of lance users drop as the game goes on:

Chapter 7: 21/33 Enemies weild lances (63.636%)

Chapter 8: 23/42 Enemies weild lances (54.762%)

Chapter 9: 8/28 Enemies weild lances (28.571%)(Excluding the bandits)

Chapter 13: 13/29 Enemies weild lances (44.827%)(Excluding the ravens)

Chapter 14: 0 Enemies weild lances (0%)

You’re making it look like lance enemies are on a severe downward trend when it very well picks up in chapters 16-17 (Atonement and the 4 parter) onwards. I’d have to look at this more closely though.

Also, Ike's essential in recruiting: Marcia, Jill, Ilyana, Astrid, Gatrie, Makalov, Haar, Tauroneo, Shinon and Nasir.

Jill and Marcia move towards him, so we don’t need to be using Ike seriously for their recruitment to occur. That also rules out Makalov and Haar, since you gave Ike partial credit there (recruiting the recruiter lol).

There’s too much here that was failed to be mentioned for me to be thoroughly convinced. Boyd having 1-2 range over Ike the entire game (excluding Rangell, but it’s 2 chapters) is a pretty huge advantage, for instance, and Boyd wins offence whenever he doubles, something that doesn’t take all the way until midgame to happen semi-consistently. I don’t think summarizing Ike vs Boyd’s lategame in one sentence does it any justice.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I think people are giving Lucia a bit of a bad rap here. I'm not really advocating moving her up, just would like to point out some things.

I'll say Mia is 20/5 at Lucia's jointime. Considering Mia is facing lances a lot and is so weak at jointime, a little over a level per chapter seems fair.

20/5 Mia(Forged Silver)

34 HP 33 Mt 7 Mag 24 AS 13 Def 8 Res 62 Avo

--/12 Lucia (Forged Silver)

36 HP 33 Mt 12 Mag 23 AS 10 Def 8 Res 62 Avo

Offensively almost equal, the 1 AS difference is not that much. Mia wins durability by a small margin, 3 Def> 2 HP I guess. Though consider that Mia probably has been a negative for many of her chapters until she hit promotion and only about average after that, and it's not very impressive.

Support wise, Mia has a not so good situation. Rhys is unlikely to be fielded laer in the game and doesn't like Mia's boost much, since it doesn't help his durability problems. Illyana has better options in Zihark/Mordecai maybe even Gatrie, since these all increase her durability, Mia's doesn't. She can maybe get in a Largo support, although Largo's problem isn't his offense

As for Lucia, both Bastian and Janaff appreciate the durability boost her support gives, both of them lack other viable partners anyway. She probably comes in too late for Illyana, though she gives Illyana a better boost than Mia does (15 Avo> 1 atk), though Mia's does start sooner.

Lucia also has more Mag, which means she can use the Runesword(Sonic Sword is probably in use, but she can use that better too). Lucia has more Mag on average than any other SM, and Mist is losing 7-8 AS from it since it has 17 Wt. This can help fix the 1-2 range issue SMs have.

So tl;dr, Lucia is competitive with a unit an entire tier above her.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Support wise, Mia has a not so good situation. Rhys is unlikely to be fielded later in the game and doesn't like Mia's boost much, since it doesn't help his durability problems. Illyana has better options in Zihark/Mordecai maybe even Gatrie, since these all increase her durability, Mia's doesn't. She can maybe get in a Largo support, although Largo's problem isn't his offense

As for Lucia, both Bastian and Janaff appreciate the durability boost her support gives, both of them lack other viable partners anyway. She probably comes in too late for Illyana, though she gives Illyana a better boost than Mia does (15 Avo> 1 atk), though Mia's does start sooner.

Bastian and Janaff aren't likely to be fielded either.

So tl;dr, Lucia is competitive with a unit an entire tier above her.

Such instances are somewhat common... you're often going to find close comparisons between characters that are higher and characters that are lower.

Except not so much in FESD where character balance is just shitty.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

I didn't say Bastian and Janaff were likely to be fielded, just if they are fielded they'll take Lucia and be better as a result.

Anyway, that post was more about Vykan12 saying Bastian/Lucia are just horrible, when they really aren't that far behind the rest of the cast. Well Lucia anyway, I'm not a huge Bastian fan.

[grandjackal]

Bastian does have the advantage of being the most concretely durable mage on your team, out the box (he's literally tougher than every other mage when they're at 20/10). AS is his main problem. It's just bad. 16 AS at this point is shit. Not sure how shitty it exactly is, but I just know it ain't good. He's got the strength to basically use any tome without worry though, so there's that. I am not sure how good his weapon rank is though. Having no staffs though is certainly a great big minus.

As for Lucia, just depends how well Earth affinity really helps her. Certainly helps Zihark. Janaff's a great affinity combo, Bastian's got no other choice. Either way, she's getting full avoid. Pretty sure Janaff can manage something around good avoid, and Bastian would certainly like it.

Both have the benefit of needing no training, though I wouldn't exactly call either of them stellar units regardless.

Yet still it must be thought over, as they are just not around for long to make much an impact, and when you aren't exactly doing stellar? Rather problematic. Perfectly good fillers, but...

Edited June 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Vykan12]

I'll say Mia is 20/5 at Lucia's jointime.

That’s insane. Mia joins in chapter 7 at level 6/0, while Lucia joins in 24. You’re only giving her 18 levels in 17 chapters, and that’s counting chapter 17 as 1. She’s going to be more like 20/8-12, if not higher.

Considering Mia is facing lances a lot and is so weak at jointime, a little over a level per chapter seems fair.

You’re overstating Mia’s problems then, and you can always compensate for lacklustre CEXP gain through BEXP.

Lucia also has more Mag, which means she can use the Runesword(Sonic Sword is probably in use, but she can use that better too).

27 atk targeting res doesn’t strike me as much this late in the game. For instance, a lv 11 halberdier has 41 hp/11 res, so that’s a 2 round. The weapon’s also limited to 15 uses, so that makes for all of ~3.75 dead enemies. Pretty minor advantage.

Maybe a Lucia vs Janaff comparison would be good if you're trying to move her up.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

The point wasn't to move Lucia up, just to show that the characters on the very bottom aren't that far away from the those realatively far above them, although Lucia/Bastian above the hawks doesn't seem totally preposterous, at least they don't have transform issues to worry about. I'm not really inspired to actually try though.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Ok, but then what was the point of the argument in the first place? The bottom tiers are there because they are worse than everyone above them. The fact that they are statistically decent just shows the game is pretty easy.

[-Cynthia-]

Ok, but then what was the point of the argument in the first place? The bottom tiers are there because they are worse than everyone above them. The fact that they are statistically decent just shows the game is pretty easy.

It shows Bastian and Lucia probably don't deserve their own tier, not under someone like Ena, who is only useful in the rare cases that Ike gets horribly RNG screwed, and she needs Resolve to save the day anyway. I think Bottom should just be removed, or everyone from Shinon on down go down there too.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Janaff and Ulki have to deal with transformation issues, lack of range, bow/wind weakness, and even bad stats and weapons. Hell, there is plenty of wind and blizzard snipers in their joining chapter, one immediately has freaking ballistae. Ulki has it worse, as his speed actually kinda blows. Bastian and Lucia at least have ways to make up for their problems. Personally, I think they should switch places. In such an order...

Lucia

Bastian

Bottom

Janaff

Ulkie

Or

Lucia

Bottom

Bastian

Janaff

Ulki

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Bastian is above Lucia.

[grandjackal]

Bastian is above Lucia.

Errrr, why? I'd think actual form of offense and earth affinity would be better than magic chip (did we forget Bastian's got no staffs?).

[Vykan12]

It shows Bastian and Lucia probably don't deserve their own tier, not under someone like Ena, who is only useful in the rare cases that Ike gets horribly RNG screwed, and she needs Resolve to save the day anyway.

Ena isn't just useful in that respect, she's also better than Bastian and Lucia in combat.

Ena lv 11: 53 hp, 36 atk, 20 AS, 27 def, 26 res, 54 avo

Lucia lv 16 (silver sword): 36 hp, 28 atk, 26 AS, 12 def, 10 res, 70 avo

Ena has a huge atk and concrete durability lead (lol 17 hp/15 def). I guess Lucia doubles a lot more, but her atk is low enough to 2 round, especially seeing as though we’re in the final 2 chapters of the game.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Errrr, why? I'd think actual form of offense and earth affinity would be better than magic chip (did we forget Bastian's got no staffs?).

She was previously above him but Tino argued Bastian up. IIRC, Bastian did better against more enemies and 1-2 range >>> Locked to Swords.

[Vykan12]

I think he also does more damage in 1 hit than she does in 2, at least against durable enemies. I'll have to double check that though.

[dondon151]

Wtf? Ike and Boyd join at the same level. You’re comparing them right after Boyd and Oscar have been gone for 2 chapters, which is when things are most ideal for Ike. How about we compare Boyd to Ike after him being stuck at lv 20/0 for a while is beginning to hurt him.

I actually disagree with Ike being stuck at level 20/0 "for a while," because I don't find units promoting until chapter 17. I could include details about how in my HM playthrough Ike was the second character on the team to promote (at 19/0), but that would just be dismissed as "lol you're not low-manning" or "lol you're not playing the game right" so there's no reason to take me seriously.

No, really, I don't actually think Ike has (any considerable) promotion issues.

Jill and Marcia move towards him, so we don’t need to be using Ike seriously for their recruitment to occur. That also rules out Makalov and Haar, since you gave Ike partial credit there (recruiting the recruiter lol).

What about in that one chapter where Ike has to save Marcia and she doesn't run to him? That's the important part.

There’s too much here that was failed to be mentioned for me to be thoroughly convinced. Boyd having 1-2 range over Ike the entire game (excluding Rangell, but it’s 2 chapters) is a pretty huge advantage, for instance, and Boyd wins offence whenever he doubles, something that doesn’t take all the way until midgame to happen semi-consistently. I don’t think summarizing Ike vs Boyd’s lategame in one sentence does it any justice.

I think 1-2 range seals the deal for Boyd > Ike. Boyd can rape from different positions in all sorts of different scenarios that Ike can only dream of.

Edited June 17, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

What about in that one chapter where Ike has to save Marcia and she doesn't run to him? That's the important part

It's on Ike's way since he should be boarding the ship.

[grandjackal]

She was previously above him but Tino argued Bastian up. IIRC, Bastian did better against more enemies and 1-2 range >>> Locked to Swords.

Well her magic is actually pretty great, so she can put the magic swords to some of the best use. She's not completely out of options.

I think he also does more damage in 1 hit than she does in 2, at least against durable enemies. I'll have to double check that though.

Well there is armorslayers at least. Her offense can also be upped with such things as forges or killer edges. Bastian doesn't really have an answer to forges, as forging basic tomes sucks. Critical boost is also nice, considering A. She doubles, and B. Her crit bonus and access to killer weapons.

However, another problem is seriously his base AS. It's 16. His luck isn't stellar either, he should be rather easy to hit. Hell, he could be doubled. His durability is pretty cool for a mage, but her speed, luck and earth affinity should soundly outdo this. If he gets doubled I'm unsure, but I recall 18 AS itself being shady even.

However, I will note his win against laguz (unless laguzslayers are buyable, which case I'd actually think she would win), dragons (again, without laguzslayers), and fliers (which is a real win there).

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm

Base level Lucia with a forged Silver Sword has 34 Atk.

Base level Bastian with a forged Thunder tome has 28 Atk.

This lead might evaporate somewhat when Bastian can use magic to hit for effective damage (fire against laguz, wind against wyvs, thunder against dragons), although considering she can use a Laguzslayer to double with effective damage it's not that helpful. Bastian usually ends up having about 2 more Atk than Lucia when they both attack with effective weapons.

Lucia against most enemies has 6 more Atk than Bastian(those they use standard weapons on) Let's look at Def/Res gaps.

Obv Lucia is better against Mages/Priests.

Halbs gave a Def/Res gap of about 4-6. Lucia is only dealing slightly less damage per hit than Bastian at worst, then she doubles as well . Warriors/Snipers/Swordmasters have similar gaps, except Lucia isn't facing WTD so it's even better.

Ravens only have like a 2-3 Def/Res gap, so Lucia's better here.

Weapon Knights have 5-7 gap, so they do similar damge, except Lucia does double. Hawks have a gap of about 7, Bastian isn't making that up. Cats have about 8-9, although Lucia might not double so Bastian might pull a win here.

Tigers have a Def/Res gap of about 11. With a forged fire Bastian has 2 more Mt than Laguzslayer Lucia, Bastian's probably pulling a win here,but it's close.

Wyvern Lords have about a 12 Def/Res gap, so Bastian can win here, plus he can use effective damage bonus. He wins against Generals obviously.

So Lucia wins offense against Halbs, SM's, Warriors, Snipers, Ravens, Paladins, Mages and Priests. Bastian wins against Generals, Wyvern Lords, Cats, and Tigers. This doesn't even factor in Lucia has a much higher chance for a crit. I don't really see how she's below Bastian here, unless we put a lot on 1-2 range.

Bastian's not really more durable either 2 Def and 12 Res about = 15 Avo and 1 HP. Lucia has 70/40/160 % HP/Def/Avoid growths, while Bastian has 55/35/140 %. Plus, Lucia gets double Bastian's evade per support point (unless it's a Lucia/Bastian support duh).

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Well her magic is actually pretty great, so she can put the magic swords to some of the best use. She's not completely out of options.

Sonic Sword comes in C18 and only has 25 uses. Unlikely that she'll put it to use.

Rune Sword, every1 who can use Swords wants this.