FE9 Tier List

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Why Muarim at 20/20 and Mist not? Recall that Mist is primarily a healer, which gives her her own experience pool, while Muarim is always competing with others for kills, and without the Demi Band, will lose time for that as well. If anything, those levels should be switched.

No, Muarim only has 11 levels to grow. Not arguing that 20/20 Mist is impossible though but yeah... Muarim not being

Btw, we should decide on Mist's route like Vykan suggested.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

No offense, but I don't really see Mist < Maurim. One thing is despite Mist being a semi-combat failure, healing utility is nice to have while Maurim is not around and it's still fairly useful even by Midgame. In a perspective: Mist's utility I see as being the better of Maurim's combat. Then factor that she's around from C9-15 which yields a Chapter lead as well where she isn't dead weight (healing is not dead weight despite most of the team seeing > or = to 3RKOes). Healing rots a little bit by the lategame, but damage starts picking up again toward endgame (Tigers are fearsome brawlers), so it's not like Mist is totally out of a job.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Colonel M

[Florete]

No, Muarim only has 11 levels to grow. Not arguing that 20/20 Mist is impossible though.

Btw, we should decide on Mist's like Vykan suggested.

Does Laguz experience gain work just like a promoted Beorc? I don't remember.

In any case, as I explained, Muarim does have a more difficult time getting experience. I'm not suggesting he's 20/16 at endgame, but I definitely can't agree with him at 20/20 and Mist 4 levels lower. Hell, I've had her at 20/20 by the time I got Elincia, and it was just because I healed a lot and let her fight on occasion, but I don't think I could pull that off in a tier argument.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Does Laguz experience gain work just like a promoted Beorc? I don't remember.

In any case, as I explained, Muarim does have a more difficult time getting experience. I'm not suggesting he's 20/16 at endgame, but I definitely can't agree with him at 20/20 and Mist 4 levels lower. Hell, I've had her at 20/20 by the time I got Elincia, and it was just because I healed a lot and let her fight on occasion, but I don't think I could pull that off in a tier argument.

I believe it does.

Combat EXP would be low from unpromoted since he probably counts as promoted... though it'd be similar to how a midgame Titania is and he will get BEXP so him leveling is certainly no issue at all. I don't think Mist is either, though she obviously requires more BEXP.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Progenitus]

wtf @ bastian > elincia

are you serious? He's like the worst fighter we could possibly use. As least Elincia has staves/mount.

[Vykan12]

People here don't seem to think staves are worth much in FE9. Feel free to argue otherwise in Elincia's case.

[-Cynthia-]

I could honestly see Elincia>Bastian, Bastian is more of a combat failure than I thought, I was thinking he could at least kill the stuff he doubles and they're pretty similar durably. Healing utility and +3 Mov do count for something and Bastian isn't really crushing her in the offensive department. Lucia and the dragons are harder matchups though, she might deserve to be under them.

Any thoughts on Ulki vs. Shinon/Lucia? I'm personally not especially convinced that Ulki has much merit as a unit even in comparison to most other low tier characters.

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

combat is also a lot harder to be 'good' at due to the fact taht enemies are generally weak in this game and one rounding stuff and not dying in return is very common. Bastian unfortunately doesn't even come close. He doesn't double ever and his mag is horrible. I can't be bothered to check enemy stats, but I have serious doubts he's even 2HKOing, and his durability is ass so he's getting 2-3HKO'd in return with crappy avoid. That's not even garbage in FE9. That's like, shit. When LOW tiers like Mia are just steamrolling you, you're awful.

Elincia is pretty bad, but at least healing doesn't force her to the frontlines where ubermassivesucking at combat gets in the way, unlike Bastian with his 3HKOing and not doubling and getting 2-3HKO'd in return, and even if Elincia needs to go the frontlines, she can just canto away.

For that matter, Lucia needs to move below Elincia. She's almost as bad as Bastian. She's like a bastian who can double but now takes counters and she's getting 2HKO'd in return.

We don't need, like, 40th string combat units or whatever the hell Lucia/Bastian are because they're the worst fighters in the game. At least Elincia's only losing to the other staff users, with a grand total of 5 people, and even then it's not THAT bad because she has a mount, which does come in handy.

[grandjackal]

Just to interrupt your tirade there, I have shown numbers earlier that show Bastian is actually able to double things, the problem is he's not doubling everything at a time where everyone should be doubling everything. Just to clear that up.

Endgame though? Definitely not doubling, but most mages aren't doubling a damn thing there either. He can get doubled though, and that is a bigger problem than not doubling. His supports are garbage, and only Volke wants him anyways.

I have to agree with smash on Elincia being better than Bastian, but maybe not Lucia. However, I will not argue that point, as I seem to do nothing but lose in Tellius.

[Vykan12]

That would make 4 people (3 + myself) who agree that Elincia should be > Bastian + Lucia.

[-Cynthia-]

That would make 4 people (3 + myself) who agree that Elincia should be > Bastian + Lucia.

I'll agree with Bastian, Lucia is more debatable. At least she doubles consistently, letting her ORKO fairly often, even moreso when crit is thown in, and she's always at least 2RKOing save dragons. Lucia is very rarely 2HKOd, and hit rates on her are low (under 50 even with WTD, much lower with WTA). I'm not really sure where the draw the line of where combat utility>healing utility, but there's a wide gap between Lucia and Bastian's offense, as well as Lucia becoming decent defensively with a support.

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

The fact that Lucia can 2RKO with silver forges doesn't change the fact that she's a sub-par fighter whereas Elincia is far from a sub-par healer. In fact, she's arguably one of the best in that respect since she has better mobility than Mist, and physic + run easily keeps her from ever seeing any combat. Moreover, Elincia's forced in clash!, though there's also 17 deployment slots there anyway.

[-Cynthia-]

The fact that Lucia can 2RKO with silver forges doesn't change the fact that she's a sub-par fighter whereas Elincia is far from a sub-par healer. In fact, she's arguably one of the best in that respect since she has better mobility than Mist, and physic + run easily keeps her from ever seeing any combat. Moreover, Elincia's forced in clash!, though there's also 17 deployment slots there anyway.

Lucia's running about a 50% to ORKO just about anything due to crit and she outright ORKOS some things (SM's, Snipers, Sages, some unpromoted units), so while she's kind of subpar, her offense isn't that bad.

Elincia being able to avoid combat isn't much of a boon since Mist/Soren/Ilyana/Tormod aren't shying away from combat at this point, and it would be better to field someone who can see enemy phase action. And yeah, Eliincia being forced isn't all that helpful since it's on the map where we get the most slots anyway. A flaw regarding Elincia-- her death ends the game, only Ike shares this weakness and Elincia definitely has the durability to make this an issue.

Elincia unfortunately is only around during lategame, where healers are generally unnecessary due to high unit durability, especially multiple healers, whereas combat utility is always pretty handy, lategame tends to throw a lot of enemies at you. I suppose Elincia isn't necessarily worse as a healer persay, but since the other healers also offer supports+combat, we really have no reason to field Elincia.

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Elincia being able to avoid combat isn't much of a boon since Mist/Soren/Ilyana/Tormod aren't shying away from combat at this point

Sure they are, especially if you seal'ed any of them early. A 20/20 Ilyana only has 39 hp/10 def so 30+ atk 2HKOes her. Most enemies in the final manage to pull that off. She also only has <=21 AS, which doubles endgame generals and basically nothing else.

I'm of course drawing a lot of attention to endgame since it makes up 1/3 of Elincia's availability. However, the durability and doubling ability (or in Mist's case, atk) of your other staff users is still questionable in 27 and 28 whilst only Mist has canto to offset that problem.

Oh and healing is more important lategame than you're giving it credit for. Ideally we want at least 2 physic users just for Ike to combat Ashnard. Then there's quite a few tigers/seige tomes/etc with high atk and accuracy that make having multiple staff users around worthwhile.

but since the other healers also offer supports+combat, we really have no reason to field Elincia.

We have even less reason to field Lucia due to her likely being the worst combat unit on the team.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Sure they are, especially if you seal'ed any of them early. A 20/20 Ilyana only has 39 hp/10 def so 30+ atk 2HKOes her. Most enemies in the final manage to pull that off. She also only has <=21 AS, which doubles endgame generals and basically nothing else.

I'm of course drawing a lot of attention to endgame since it makes up 1/3 of Elincia's availability. However, the durability and doubling ability (or in Mist's case, atk) of your other staff users is still questionable in 27 and 28 whilst only Mist has canto to offset that problem.

Oh and healing is more important lategame than you're giving it credit for. Ideally we want at least 2 physic users just for Ike to combat Ashnard. Then there's quite a few tigers/seige tomes/etc with high atk and accuracy that make having multiple staff users around worthwhile.

I suppose you have a point, it's just that I don't see where to draw the line. I would definitely declare someone like Ulki a subpar combat unit, and your arguments for Elincia would apply for him too, possibly all the way through Largo. When does a unit become good enough in combat to offset Elincia's healing utility?

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

When does a unit become good enough in combat to offset Elincia's healing utility?

Comparing staff utility to combat is always a pretty subjective judgment so it's difficult to argue one > the other. Anyway, putting Elincia at the top of low doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

[Progenitus]

I personally find that putting the units into the right tiers first matters a lot more than the actual order they're in, since units within the same tier are generally close to each other.

I strongly think that Lucia and Bastian should go to bottom with Rolf. Having them in low implies that they are somewhat comparable with the people at the upper echelon of low, which is absurd because people like Mia are just stomping them everywhere.

For example, notice Top tier...

Oscar

Jill

Kieran

Boyd

Reyson

You can kinda make an argument about Boyd vs Oscar, although you might be at a disadvantage (which is why Oscar > Boyd), but if you play your cards right you *could* have a case. And of course Reyson, being the dancer, is really subjective, and you can make a case too.

Now what if you go a step above? Say you take Titania and then compare to Oscar/Jill/Boyd/etc.? You'd have a very hard time. That's a sign that Titania is really that good. You make a tier gap there to signify there's a relatively large jump in usefulness. Or what if you go a step lower? Say Boyd/Kieran/etc. vs people in high like Ike/Tanith/Astrid? You can see that the former will generally have an advantage (ignoring the fact that IIRC someone was pushing for Ike in top tier). That's why there's a tier gap at that place too.

You can't even come close to doing that with Lucia/Bastian vs the rest of the people in low. They just get smashed. That's a sign that they're in the wrong tier.

Top of low for Elincia might be pushing it though, but then again, prog's right, healing is always subjective and very difficult to measure. But staves will always be better than the absolute bottom of the barrel in combat.

Edited July 15, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Any1 disagree with Bastian and Lucia to bottom?

[Dat Nick]

No, but we need to stop undermining healing utility if it's not making Elincia worse than those two.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Meh screw it, Lucia and Bastian to bottom.

[Colonel M]

No, but we need to stop undermining healing utility if it's not making Elincia worse than those two.

Alright, then would Ena count as a third then? She is borderline terrible and only around for 2 chapters to Elincia's... 3? The only thing that pops out that Ena has other than maybe durability is Boon.

Though, seriously: why must Elincia's Sword rank SUCK? If we did save the two Arms Scrolls and let her use Amiti until C Rank and plop those two for the A Rank she can use the Runesword for ranged chip damage. The only competition for Arms Scrolls according to everyone else is Mist, so might as well just throw it out there.

Without it I'd still say Elincia > Ena though. Having Staves is a lot better than being able to damage Ashnard for 0 damage unless BEXP ramming / training.

[Zkirsche]

As for the Boyd vs Ike discussion which was recently dropped, being a tier above another unit shows a significant jump in usefulness - it's why Titania is a tier above Oscar, why Haar is a tier above Mia and why Elincia is a tier above Rofl.

With this in mind, Boyd has no significant usefulness compared to Ike which gives him the right to be the tier above.

We have even less reason to field Lucia due to her likely being the worst combat unit on the team.

This was exactly my argument before when arguing Elincia > Bastian.

I have issues with Elincia > Shinon. Her healing utility is good, but not in the face of Shinon's earlygame utility. Plus his practical bow monopoly means he's guaranteed to almost any bow - brave/killers/laguz included. Not to mention Shinon isn't too bad against fliers, who are very durable otherwise.

Whislt it cannot be ignored, a lot of your units are very durable at this point, making Elincia's healing utiltiy less useful. And whilst she's the best lategame healer, others do exist, and they give out useful support bonuses (In the case of Mist, at least).

So yeah, I'd say Shinon > Elincia.

[-Cynthia-]

I'd say Elincia should probably go between Shinon and Nasir. Her 3 chapters of healing are less than Shinon's 3.5 earlygame chapters and she's not quite as useful, but Nasir is just a low Mov subpar combat unit for 2 chapters.

Speaking of Shinon, anyone oppose Shinon>Ulki? Ulki's offense is...bad and he has gauge issues.

[Dat Nick]

If Elincia goes that high, Mist needs to fucking skyrocket.

[Colonel M]

I'm iffy with that. The only reason Elincia is "skyrocketing" is because look at the competition around her:

- Bastian: Sucks

- Lucia: Not durable and barely pulls any miracles except with Crit

- Ena: Sucks

- Hawks: Borderline suck

etc.

Elincia at least had a case on Bast + Luc + Ena I thought, though hitting Hawks is wonky territory.