FE9 Tier List

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm thinking of removing the Super top tier and just putting the ones currently in top with the high tier units and Titania alone in top. This "Ike shouldn't be in high tier when boyd is in top" is ridiculous and if Ike's moved to top tier and such, I expect more crap like "there shouldn't be a tier gap between Ike and Tanith, she has to go to top tier too".

Any objections?

[Progenitus]

With this in mind, Boyd has no significant usefulness compared to Ike which gives him the right to be the tier above.

I dunno. Boyd's earlygame is quite a bit better than Ike, especially since enemies are reaaaaaaally slow in this game. And Boyd has 1-2 range.

I think I had a Boyd vs Ike comparison lying around somewhere. lemme pull it out.

I'm thinking of removing the Super top tier and just putting the ones currently in top with the high tier units and Titania alone in top. This "Ike shouldn't be in high tier when boyd is in top" is ridiculous and if Ike's moved to top tier and such, I expect more crap like "there shouldn't be a tier gap between Ike and Tanith, she has to go to top tier too".

Nah. There really should be a gap between the likes of Jill/Kieran/etc. and Makalov/Astrid/etc.

Also, Muarim should be high tier. He's like a boss a beast when he joins.

w/ demi band

29.0 att, 17.0 AS, 131.0 hit, 7.5 crit - - 45.0 avo, 45.0 HP, 14.0 def, 7.0 res, 11.0 critavo

Titania with +2 att from supports and steel axe doesn't reach Muarim's base att until 20/10.

Oscar with steel axe doesn't reach Muarim's base att until ~20/6.

Boyd reaches his base att early, but he doesn't reach his base spd until ~20/5.

Ike with steel sword doesn't reach his base att until 20/8.

Neph with +1 att support and steel lance, until 20/8.

Marcia with +1 att support and steel lance, until 20/6.

etc.

And since Muarim does gain levels (albeit slowly) and has a 70% str growth, he will always have one of the highest att values on the team until silver weapons appear. It's not until the final chapters of the game where he's slowing down.

As for his durability, it's kinda like Oscar/Kieran without their supports, which is still good, since their durability is very good before supports.

While it's a bit hard to argue him up because the two units above him are utility units, I daresay he's closer to Astrid/Mak than he is to Neph/Zihark. Consider that Astrid/Mak start off as one of the most underleveled units in the game and need to climb out of their hole of suck before they start raping (most likely a BEXP dump), and in that regard are kinda like Muarim's polar opposite.

Edited July 15, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

I'm thinking of removing the Super top tier and just putting the ones currently in top with the high tier units and Titania alone in top. This "Ike shouldn't be in high tier when boyd is in top" is ridiculous and if Ike's moved to top tier and such, I expect more crap like "there shouldn't be a tier gap between Ike and Tanith, she has to go to top tier too".

Any objections?

I find this tier reorganization somewhat silly, because while you've moved Lucia/Bastian because apparently they have to be comparable to the top units in their tier, Rolf is losing losing to Lucia pretty badly himself, so this creates additional problems. Now I can definitely see arguments cropping up like "Ilyana is so much worse than Volke!" which basically is just arguing characters into arbitrary categories.

The main reason for Muarim's positioning is gauge IMO, he either has to deny another laguz the Demi Band or be unable to attack for ~half the map, both undesirable.

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

I'm thinking of removing the Super top tier and just putting the ones currently in top with the high tier units and Titania alone in top. This "Ike shouldn't be in high tier when boyd is in top" is ridiculous and if Ike's moved to top tier and such, I expect more crap like "there shouldn't be a tier gap between Ike and Tanith, she has to go to top tier too".

Any objections?

I can't say much, really...

As for Muarim, I'd say gauge is the main reason for where he is. Like Cynthia said, he either has to deny another laguz the Demi Band or he's unable to attack for half the map, neither of which is good.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Progenitus]

I find this tier reorganization somewhat silly, because while you\'ve moved Lucia/Bastian because apparently they have to be comparable to the top units in their tier, Rolf is losing losing to Lucia pretty badly himself, so this creates additional problems. Now I can definitely see arguments cropping up like \"Ilyana is so much worse than Volke!\" which basically is just arguing characters into arbitrary categories.

Isn't that what we're doing already?

Also, I don't see Rolf losing to Lucia "pretty badly". Rolf at least won't take counters. Lucia has to get pwned in the face to do anything.

The main reason for Muarim's positioning is gauge IMO, he either has to deny another laguz the Demi Band or be unable to attack for ~half the map, both undesirable.

The only laguz that we might actually be fielding by the time the band shows up is Mordy. That's not a really big disadvantage.

Edited July 15, 2009 by smash fanatic

[uzy5o]

I'm thinking of removing the Super top tier and just putting the ones currently in top with the high tier units and Titania alone in top. This "Ike shouldn't be in high tier when boyd is in top" is ridiculous and if Ike's moved to top tier and such, I expect more crap like "there shouldn't be a tier gap between Ike and Tanith, she has to go to top tier too".

Any objections?

I agree. The tiers below them have like twice as many people in them, so top and high should be merged.

[-Cynthia-]

Isn't that what we're doing already?

Also, I don't see Rolf losing to Lucia "pretty badly". Rolf at least won't take counters. Lucia has to get pwned in the face to do anything.

Crit helps her avoid counters, and she could always attack Snipers or something, not to mention she might actually have an enemy phase as opposed to Rolf. The main reason Rolf should be lower though, is just the massive amounts of fail he accumulates before Lucia/Bastian arrive, it's either a boatload of BEXP or failing at combat for a long time, take your pick. He would actually have to be decent post promotion to be beating...anyone, but being locked to bows prevents this.

The only laguz that we might actually be fielding by the time the band shows up is Mordy. That's not a really big disadvantage.

Lethe is also a possible option. Either way, every laguz in the game wants the Demi Band, we can't entitle Muarim to it. Later in the game Muarim suffers from being locked to a 1 range 8 Mt Weapon, while the people above him have Silvers and 1-2 range and such.

Also merging High/Top/Super Top seems fine by me.

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

I dunno. Boyd's earlygame is quite a bit better than Ike, especially since enemies are reaaaaaaally slow in this game. And Boyd has 1-2 range.

I think I had a Boyd vs Ike comparison lying around somewhere. lemme pull it out.

I had an earlygame comparison:

5/0 Boyd with an Iron/Hand Axe: 32 HP, 17/16 atk, 6/3 spd, 6 def, 1 res

8/0 Ike with the regal/steel sword: 24 HP, 16/17 Atk, 11/8 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res

Ike doubles, Boyd doesn't with the regal sword. Since the majority of enemies weild lances, their Atk gap is 3 (Ike has 15, Boyd has 18), this means that the enemeis need to have 13 or more def for Ike to deal less damage. only knights have that much def, and ike has the regal sword for those, which has no competition. Boyd does have the hammer, but he has competition for it (Titania).

I'm thinking of removing the Super top tier and just putting the ones currently in top with the high tier units and Titania alone in top. This "Ike shouldn't be in high tier when boyd is in top" is ridiculous and if Ike's moved to top tier and such, I expect more crap like "there shouldn't be a tier gap between Ike and Tanith, she has to go to top tier too".

Any objections?

Personally, I can see Tanith into top as well. I agree with Smash on the matter, Kieran/Oscar/Jill shoudl be a tier higher than Mak/Astrid/Marcia.

Which is why I suggest moving Tanith and Ike up a tier. And Ike > Reyson, but I'll get to that later.

[Tino]

I had an earlygame comparison

Hey! I have this one endgame comparison where Ike is worse than Boyd!

You provided one comparison. Now look at, say, ch 2. Boyd is actually able to ORKO things here. Defensively, Ike faces nearly 50% true hit on average. Boyd however, gets more than 4HKOed on average. Considering the amount of enemies, that's more than enough to survive. Plus, he faces like ~80% true hit on average (a little more), so he may also avoid some attacks thrown at him.

So Boyd > Ike there.

And then, looking outside that chapter, Boyd has 1-2 range, generally has more offense, is generally more durable against lance users due to +10 avo for him and -10 avo for Ike (as well as +1 def for Boyd and -1 def for Ike) and having a huge-ass amount of hp.

So I think it's safe to assume that Boyd > Ike earlygame.

[Progenitus]

Ike doubles, Boyd doesn't with the regal sword. Since the majority of enemies weild lances, their Atk gap is 3 (Ike has 15, Boyd has 18), this means that the enemeis need to have 13 or more def for Ike to deal less damage. only knights have that much def, and ike has the regal sword for those, which has no competition. Boyd does have the hammer, but he has competition for it (Titania).

Ike got 3 levels in ch 3 and 4? Sounds pretty generous if you ask me, especially since he's the only guy there with issues one rounding anything (and Soren in ch 4), and in ch 3 you want to rush so you can get to Marcia in time (they're like 3HKOing her with 50+ hit). Ch 4 is pretty unforgiving to Ike too because it has so many soldiers.

[Colonel M]

*Sigh*. I disagree with Tino's post about Ike in C2:

Notice there are two trees right near the mountain, which increases Ike's Def +1 and his Avoid by 10. Assuming he's about Level 3 at this point, he'll have 32 Evade here: 42 with WTA. Since most Axe users have about 79-81 Hit rates, that's 37-39% displayed. For durability, he has 20.5 HP | 5.8 Def, so let's just round up the Def and round down the HP for the example since .8 is closer than .5. The Fighters with 13 Atk 4RKO with and without cover, which means he's being 4RKOed when under the trees. Offensively he's 2RKOing as usual. Keep in mind I only listed 1 level per chapter then (Prologue is free and +1 for C1). If you wondered his chances of death: he has .009% chance of death in the forests. In case he ever treads out of the forest for some weird reason, it's 11% (and it's assuming he's 3RKOed).

For Boyd, he needs to rely on a gamble with his Str since the Iron Axe drops his AS by 3 at this point. If, for some reason, the 40% chance doesn't deliver, Boyd's not ORKOing. For Ike, it's either the trees or the 20% chance in Def.

For C4 max BEXP is 4 turns. I don't think Boyd is going to take on a sea of Lance users even if he does double. Boyd's still facing Hit rates that are about 58 minimum and climb up to 70. A Level 5 Boyd has 32 HP | 6 Def. Though it's like a 6RKO with the 12 Atk guys, these ones also have about 92 base Hit. Don't even try with the Hand Axe because it tarnishes his doubling opportunities and his Avoid plummets (13 Wt and he has 8 Str. At this point he has 7 Spd, so do the math).

Not saying Ike is going to win this chapter (this, C6, and C7 are probably his worst chapters. 17-3 and 17-4 I'm unsure on), but I dunno how well Boyd is going to LEEROY JENKINS this chapter since obviously the Soldiers have more than 12 Atk (8 / 13 do).

Edited July 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

Actually, Boyd still one rounds a few enemies in ch 2 with a +spd. The +str just lets him get all the axemen except 1.

Plus, I daresay one rounding is more useful than not dying in this chapter, since as said before, boyd's getting 4HKO'd or something, which is pretty good since there are only 13 enemies in the map and we have Rhys to heal. But we only have 4 fighters, so every attack counts, so if Boyd can one round something, that's good.

Er wait, all axemen except 2. I didn't realize there were two bandits with 1 AS.

So a +spd lets him kill 5 of the 10 axemen, and a +str lets him kill 8 of the 10 axemen.

That's still pretty good.

For C4 max BEXP is 4 turns. I don't think Boyd is going to take on a sea of Lance users even if he does double. Boyd's still facing Hit rates that are about 58 minimum and climb up to 70. A Level 5 Boyd has 32 HP | 6 Def. Though it's like a 6RKO with the 12 Atk guys, these ones also have about 92 base Hit. Don't even try with the Hand Axe because it tarnishes his doubling opportunities and his Avoid plummets (13 Wt and he has 8 Str. At this point he has 7 Spd, so do the math).

Not saying Ike is going to win this chapter (this, C6, and C7 are probably his worst chapters. 17-3 and 17-4 I'm unsure on), but I dunno how well Boyd is going to LEEROY JENKINS this chapter since obviously the Soldiers have more than 12 Atk (8 / 13 do).

Boyd's not even in chapter 4.

But the fact that chapter 4 is only 4 turns for max BEXP kinda shows that Ike getting 3 levels from c3 and c4 is stretching it pretty far, which nerfs him in the chapter 5 comparison Kirsche brought up.

Edited July 15, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

I'm just trying to say that Ike isn't exactly the worst unit in those chapters. In the chapters such as the usual (before Oscar's supports are built up or there are a bit over 50% of Lance users), that's when I know Ike is iffy. Of course having Regal Sword accomodates it slightly since without Hammer on someone like Titania it isn't easy to take down Armor Knights.

Not in C4? *FACEDESK*. >_<;

Ah, now I remember. Alright, though let's just say in that chapter Ike is probably sitting in the forests. >_>;

Edited July 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

I'm just trying to say that Ike isn't exactly the worst unit in those chapters. In the chapters such as the usual (before Oscar's supports are built up or there are a bit over 50% of Lance users), that's when I know Ike is iffy. Of course having Regal Sword accomodates it slightly since without Hammer on someone like Titania it isn't easy to take down Armor Knights.

You don't have to be the worst unit in the chapter to be slowing the team down. The fact is I could go quite a bit faster if I just had Titania/Gatrie take on a majority of enemies instead of funneling kills to Ike, which needs to be taken into account for Ike vs Boyd in chapters 3 and 4. Since chapter 3 is a pretty rushing chapter (save Marcia!) and chapter 4 is a wide open field.

Edited July 15, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

Chapter 3 we can still have Ike rush up close (he's being 4RKOed at times but the Hit rates aren't astonishing) so he isn't exactly slowing us down. In C4 as I've said he's going to be sitting in the forests and maybe climb out if he can take a kill or something. I'd say a Level 6 Ike by C5 is a bit more of a fair comparison (though I guess 7 wouldn't be totally out of the question either).

Edited July 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

Ike's problem in chapter 3 isn't surviving, it's killing. He's the only guy that can't one round anything in the chapter.

And chapter 4 won't net him many kills if he's sitting in a forest, since they're in the middle of nowhere and very few enemies wander over.

[Colonel M]

If Gatrie only has the Steel Lance equipped, he can miss ORKOing quite a bit actually since he still loses 1 AS. I wasn't sure on Shinon though because IIRC he does need a crit on a couple of enemies to kill. I guess Level 6 would be the lowest I pit Ike (assuming he could nab at least 1 of the bosses for an extra level up to make up for C4).

Edited July 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

Personally, I can see Tanith into top as well. I agree with Smash on the matter, Kieran/Oscar/Jill shoudl be a tier higher than Mak/Astrid/Marcia.

Which is why I suggest moving Tanith and Ike up a tier. And Ike > Reyson, but I'll get to that later.

I'm not really seeing how Tanith is a whole tier above Marcia. Tanith's bases are almost equal to Marcia at 20/1 except for like 1 point in Def and some mostly superfluous Spd. They have almost identical growths (except Spd which Marcia wins by a fair margin) and Marcia gains Exp much faster due to being underleveled, so she'll soon be pulling statistical leads in most categories.

Marcia does have a bit of a rocky start (a forge and some BEXP go a long way), but also has some moments of utility before Tanith joins. There's the ferrying around in Ch10, being the only non-Jill person being able to quickly kill ravens in 12+13, being able to get the items(and Makalov) from the houses in 14 before they get sacked. 15 is obviously a big win for Marcia, flyer in desert yes plz.

Supports- they're each other's best option really. Tanith gets more out a B Oscar than Marcia does from Kieran(or Gatrie), but Marcia's supports start earlier and Oscar generally wants Kieran/Ike anyway. There's Reyson, but to Mov difference I don't see him in Tanith's range much.

Really, the only lead I see for Tanith is Reinforce, probably not a tier's worth of difference.

@Colonel M- Why wouldn't he equip an Iron Lance when he doubles?

Edited July 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Gatrie at least can one round half the axe men, since they have 0 AS. Ditto for Shinon, except he can also kill the archer and myrm, and has crit for the other half of the axemen. And there's still Titania.

[Colonel M]

@Colonel M- Why wouldn't he equip an Iron Lance when he doubles?

It can still miss units. There's a Bandit with 30 HP | 5 Def and a Bandit with 31 HP | 5 Def. Gatrie has 18 with the WTD. It also misses on one Fighter.

Obviously it can be the choice if it has an impact difference, but just statiting that Gatrie isn't ORKOing all the time. Neither is Ike, but just to clarify, I guess.

[Dat Nick]

I'm iffy with that. The only reason Elincia is "skyrocketing" is because look at the competition around her:

- Bastian: Sucks

- Lucia: Not durable and barely pulls any miracles except with Crit

- Ena: Sucks

- Hawks: Borderline suck

etc.

Elincia at least had a case on Bast + Luc + Ena I thought, though hitting Hawks is wonky territory.

Yes, but remember why Mist was moved down in the first place: Because healing utility apparantly "isn't that useful". Elincia loses to every single person below her combat wise and only heals for three chapters, so this implies that her healing utility somehow means something and yet apparently it's totally fine to shrug off Mist's TWENTY chapters of healing entirely by going all "Oh, it's not like healing's all that useful" I was the one constantly drawing attention to Elincia for a reason, you know.

And I've noticed several other double standards involving Mist.

Apparently nobody has any problem forking over the brave lances to the generals [Lol at them ever using swords, that's never happening even IF you give them scrolls] as they've constantly been used in comparisions several times, nonwithstanding that they don't do any better with a brave lance than Neph does or Oscar does or Geoffrey does or whatever: Dead unit without a counter for 15 enemies. The Sonic sword is a similar deal, Mist rapes 17 units without taking counter damage, 18 if she gets even one crit off it.

Never mind that the list of viable sonic sword users is much smaller than a list of people with B Lances by the time the brave lance comes into play. Tanith and Mist and...wow, even ignoring the fact more people can use the brave lance apart from the three stooges, that's fewer competition for the sword than the brave lance. So how the fuck can it be reasonably assumed that the generals get the brave lance just because they can't double without it, and yet when it comes to Mist getting the sonic sword, more uses for fewer competition, it makes the jump to favoritism on Mist?

And still more.

Cynthia loves assuming forged silver swords on Lucia [although I think Cynthia is being a bit too forge happy in general, this isn't RD] and somehow that's less favoritism than Mist getting ONE forged steel. ONE. freaking ONE. Lucia is dependent on constant forged silvers to function, they only last 10 enemies, and she's only getting one per chapter, and in some insane world that's somehow more reasonable than Mist taking one forged steel that we have PLENTY of money and time for.

"well cynthia is wrong lol"

Well you had plenty of time to point that out, not like anybody ever did.

Guess what? I'm not done.

Apparantly Kirshe starting bringing up this "well the paladins don't die and Sol basically replaces healing" argument. Fine. So if the Paladins are pulling shit like 7HKOs with low hit rates and never dying as he says, then why the hell can't Mist take sol, since, you know, the paladins shouldn't need it if they're never dying?

For the record, I don't care if Mist goes back into high tier or not. All I want is some damned consistency in the arguments against her.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

For the record, I don't care if Mist goes back into high tier or not. All I want is some damned consistency in the arguments against her.

There is, Mist is not a tier above the others as I've shown. I didn't even consider Sol on Paladins when I look into healing in the lategame.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

There is, Mist is not a tier above the others as I've shown

Like I said. I really don't give a shit where Mist goes.

I'm looking for one thing. Explanations to these double standards, not Mist in high tier.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Vykan12]

@Sirius: Are you saying there's no reasonable case for Mist > Makalov? If we are making tier separations the way smash was suggesting, then that would be what the list is currently claiming.

[-Cynthia-]

Like I said. I really don't give a shit where Mist goes.

I'm looking for one thing. Explanations to these double standards, not Mist in high tier.

Erm, I never said Mist couldn't get a forge, in fact I'm rather assuming she does or she and several other characters should go down. Note that if a character has a forge they aren't necessarily using it constantly, if they're ORKOing otherwise, using an effective weapon etc. they don't need it.

My arguments for Lucia have apparently fallen on deaf ears, as she's now an entire below Ulki, the 3RKOing WonderHawk, so I don't see how anyone has classified that as not favoritism. For that comparison I also gave numbers where she just had a basic Silver Sword and she was still beating him in offense pretty badly.

As for the Sonic Sword, rememeber Mist likely needs those Arms Scrolls too, not just the weapon itself.

Edited July 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-